Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

BGrif21125

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Another thing to watch for during Cintron-Margarito...

The winner is slated to fight Cotto in July in NYC. However, there is a good chance that Cintron-Margarito is a real war, the type of fight that could feature knockdowns, cuts, hand injuries (Cintron hurt his hand in his previous fight), etc. It'll be interesting to see if the winner emerges unscathed in a way that will allow for them to be back in the ring 3 months later.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Looks like NEXT weekend is also shaping up as a good boxing weekend. On April 19, in addition to Calzaghe-Hopkins on HBO, ESPN Classic will air the cruiserweight IBF title eliminator between Tomasz Adamek and O’ Neil Bell LIVE from Poland at 6pm EDT. Neither of those two guys is ever in bad fight and in fact, both have been in classics. This should be a really fun "fight fan's fight" and a nice warm-up to Hopkins-Calzaghe which, though I am excited to see it, will probably be an ugly affaair.
 

BGrif21125

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What's the deal with Cotto? Is this a must-see saturday night?
He's one of the 5 best fighters in the world, he's never had a boring fight, and most people believe he's the only fighter in the world who'd have any chance whatsoever against Mayweather.

So the answer is.... Yes, it's a must-see.
 

BGrif21125

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In USA Today it said he's a mauler.
He's a straight-forward, aggressive, old-school, physical fighter, but if someone calls him a mauler, I think that's selling him somewhat short. Because while there is a "mauling" aspect of his style, he also has refined technical skills and a very well-rounded amateur and pro background.

When I think of a mauler, I think of a rough-around-the-edges guy like Ricky Hatton.

How much does he weigh for this fight?
147... welterweight
 

BU1995Hockey

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He's a straight-forward, aggressive, old-school, physical fighter, but if someone calls him a mauler, I think that's selling him somewhat short. Because while there is a "mauling" aspect of his style, he also has refined technical skills and a very well-rounded amateur and pro background.

When I think of a mauler, I think of a rough-around-the-edges guy like Ricky Hatton.
147... welterweight
They didn't call him that they just said he's a hard hitter, undefeated and tough as nails. I use that term for someone who dominates in a fight. Hatton isn't mauling anyone like FM or Cotto, agreed? Sorry for the misinterpretation.

BGrif is Cotto your favorite fighter right now?

I can't wait till saturday!
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Alright men,

What's the deal with Cotto? Is this a must-see saturday night?

BU (rookie boxing fanatic)
To me, all Cotto fights are must-see at this point. This one is looked on as a mismatch, a "stay busy" fight. But Alfonso Gomez if nothing else has tremendous heart and isn't a BAD fighter, so i think (or at least hope) that this could be a somewhat more exciting fight than most fans and media members expect.

Cotto in a way is like a little Rocky Marciano. He comes forward all the time (well, except in the last few rounds of the Shane Mosely fight) and throws heavy, damaging punches from a variety of angles. But he has some defensive flaws, which give his fights some suspense. He's always at risk of catching a good shot. Ricardo Torres knocked him down and almost out. Zab Judah hurt him. And if he's not careful, Gomez could definitely catch him.

Anyway, if you're going to tune in to HBO, the co-feature -- Cintron-Margarito 2 -- is must-see as well. The winner, provided they don't beat each other up too badly, should be Cotto's next opponent, in July.
 

shawnrbu

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If I was betting, I would take the Under. Gomez will have no problem going to war with Cotto. This is the kind of fight that should end in the middle rounds. Boxrec has Mayorga listed as Cotto's next opponent in July, but I suppose that site is far from official.
 

bosoxx05

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Cotto in a way is like a little Rocky Marciano. He comes forward all the time (well, except in the last few rounds of the Shane Mosely fight)
I meant to ask this question after the Mosely fight, but I never got to it. Did Cotto ever mention why he started to back up? I remember having bet Cotto and becoming extremely concerned when I saw him backing up for the first time since I had started to watch him box and I don't remember any real damaging shots. I recall his corner basically telling him he had won going into the 12th so maybe he was just playing it safe. Anyone ever hear or read something about that?
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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I meant to ask this question after the Mosely fight, but I never got to it. Did Cotto ever mention why he started to back up? I remember having bet Cotto and becoming extremely concerned when I saw him backing up for the first time since I had started to watch him box and I don't remember any real damaging shots. I recall his corner basically telling him he had won going into the 12th so maybe he was just playing it safe. Anyone ever hear or read something about that?
This was Cotto's quote after the fight.

"I just wanted to move because I had the fight in my corner," Cotto said.

"I felt I had the fight and I tried to win the fight the easy way. I always try to punch hard. When I didn't see change coming, I tried to move around and win the fight easier. I wasn't hurt. I was just a little bit excited."
Despite what he said, Mosley did hurt him in the 9th round and the recurring cut inside his lower lip opened up again. Cotto's approach changed after that.
 

shawnrbu

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Cotto destroyed Gomez those first three rounds. Classy move by Cotto to take it easy on Gomez in the 5th Round. He showed more concern for him than even Gomez's own father did. That was such a gross mismatch. If Cotto didn't have a heart, I shudder to think what would have happened to Gomez.

Good job by Margarito rolling through Cintron. Kermit showed more courage this time, but his gameplan was lacking. Cotto vs. Margarito should be a hell of a fight in July. Any word on the venue?
 

BU1995Hockey

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Cotto destroyed Gomez those first three rounds. Classy move by Cotto to take it easy on Gomez in the 5th Round. He showed more concern for him than even Gomez's own father did. That was such a gross mismatch. If Cotto didn't have a heart, I shudder to think what would have happened to Gomez.

Good job by Margarito rolling through Cintron. Kermit showed more courage this time, but his gameplan was lacking. Cotto vs. Margarito should be a hell of a fight in July. Any word on the venue?
The under was a good call, thanks for the tip. Cotto is a killer.
 

BGrif21125

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OK, recap of last night:

Dawson-Johnson was a great fight and a perfect start to the night. I thought it was an even fight while I was watching it live, but I wasn't making a point to score round-by-round. I'll have to watch it again and score it.
Dawson has great handspeed and a ton of skills, but he leaves himself in harm's way far too often and he's got a suspect chin to boot (although he definitely has the heart to keep punching when hurt). Dawson could probably be a much more dominant fighter if he used his legs more, jabbed, and boxed, but he'd also be less-crowd pleasing that way. I wonder how much effect getting rid of Mayweather Sr. as trainer will have on his career, since old Floyd definitely would have hammered defense into Dawson's brain. Anyway, very impressive performance by both Dawson and Johnson. And it's nice to see a New England fighter gaining some prominence in the sport.

I only saw bits and pieces of Tarver-Woods, but I guess Tarver still has some life left after all. Hopefully he stops ducking Dawson now.

Cintron is the classic KO artist who crumbles as soon as he realizes that his opponent can take his best punch. Cintron landed some very clean right hands early on, Margarito didn't buckle in the slightest, and that was it. As soon as Margarito showed he was going to keep coming, Cintron began to break. Emmanuel Steward is not off to a stellar start in 2008.

Cotto looked as fast and sharp as ever. I know he was supposed to beat Gomez in dominant fashion, but I still expected Gomez to really push him as long as the fight lasted. Instead, it was just a mismatch from the opening bell. Cotto almost looked bored. His jab is such a dangerous weapon now, Gomez's face was completely rearranged by the jab alone by the end of Round 3.

Cotto-Margarito should be great, and I definitely plan on being in attendance. I'm definitely picking Cotto, since I think he's better at every aspect of the game, but Margarito will at the very least force Cotto to bring his A-game. Should be a non-stop action fight from the opening bell.

Looking forward to Hopkins-Calzaghe next week. I'm picking Calzaghe by decision, and rooting for him as well.
 

eddiew112

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Emanuel Steward is momentarily enjoying Buddy McGirt status this year.

Dawson's style reminds me a lot of a younger Antonio Tarver, in that he doesn't use his feet anywhere near as much as he should. What's the next fight for Dawson now?
 

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A really good night of boxing overall. Fight of the night was easily Dawson-Johnson, which has to be added to the ever-growing list of Fight of the Year candidates this year. And we're only in April. Just a thrilling light heavyweight battle with great back-and-forth action, tremendous heart and skill by both fighters and a nice "youth vs. age" storyline. I didn't score it myself, but my impression was that Dawson probably won a couple more rounds, though Johnson clearly did more damage in the rounds that he won. It was very close, though.

You really have to feel for Johnson. He was outraged by the decision which in this case he didn't really have the right to be, but given what this guy has been through in his career -- and finally fighting on his home turf rather than in some hostile foreign country -- I see why he felt that he should have got the decision. Looking at it the other way, however, I'd have to say that he had at least two great chances to finish Dawson off in this fight an he was unable to do it. Dawson was out on his feet twice. If Johnson had capitalized, then there's no chance of a controversial decision. But he just didn't have that finishing touch and that was Johnson's undoing. Still, awesome fight.

On the other hand, I was very disappointed in Clinton Woods. Tarver looked pretty good, certainly better than he's looked since his second victory over Roy Jones three years ago. But I wasn't overly impressed. Woods looked somehow mesmerized from the opening bell and his statue-like inactivity allowed Tarver to find himself and settle in very quickly. I thought that when Woods finally did wake up a little -- I gave him a few rounds late -- he was able to disrupt Tarver. Based on last night, my estimation of Tarver increases somewhat, but I still can't see him beating any quality light-heavy who will actually fight him, rather than just follow him around the ring taking punches.

Over on HBO, the Margarito-Cintron fight was very exciting while it lasted. Margarito seems reborn. He took some monster shots from Cintron that would have put most welterweights flat on their collective ass, but he just kept coming. That body shot he used to end the fight was just deadly. Cintron redeemed himself in terms of his courage and character. But on this night, Maragarito would have been too much for almost anybody. Almost!

Cotto just keeps getting better and better. Yeah, he was in against an overmatched opponent, but I think Cotto outclassed Gomez even more than expected. What blew me away about Cotto was that his handspeed seems like it's reached a whole new level. Somehow, his hands get faster with every fight. Obviously Maragarito-Cotto on July 26 (save the date!) is going to be another FOY contender, but based on Cotto's steady level of improvement, I just don't see how Margarito beats him -- even the Maragarito who showed up last night. Cotto at this point in his career seems to have it all now. Speed, power, defense, chin, movement. I think the first few rounds of Cotto-Marg will be a war, but as the fight goes on, even as tough as Maragarito is -- and he's one of te toughest in any division -- Cotto's going to break him down and win a clear decision or maybe a late stoppage.

If the fight does end up at MSG, I gotta be there, too! But according to Kevin Iole of Yahoo! Sports, the fight will be in Las Vegas if the Nevada commission allows the fighters to wear 8 oz gloves. According to Nevada regulations, welters and above must wear 10 oz gloves. If the commission doesn't grant the waiver (and you have to think they will) the the fight be either at MSG or back at Boardwalk Hall in AC.

I don't really see the logic in putting this fight in Vegas. I'm also hoping against hope it'll be on regular HBO, but I'm afraid it'll go to PPV.

Anyway, very entertaining night of boxing. The "Countdown to Hopkins-Calzaghe" show was good also and got me more psyched for that fight next weekend.
 

BGrif21125

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I don't really see the logic in putting this fight in Vegas.
Ya, me neither.

Maybe Arum thinks going to Vegas will help draw more of Margarito's Mexico/SoCal fans. But Margarito just doesn't have that big of a following, so any turnout among his fans will be outweighed by the negative factor of moving the fight 3,000 miles away from Cotto's much bigger NYC/Puerto Rican fanbase. Also, maybe Arum wants to prove that Cotto is more than just a "regional attraction," which is what the Mayweather camp keeps calling him.

I understand that Vegas is now established as the "Capital of Boxing," but Madison Square Garden is still the single most famous arena in boxing. So IMO, if you can sellout MSG (as Cotto can), then you don't need to prove your worth anywhere else.

Sometimes Vegas fights can have a great atmosphere, such as for the various Mexican vs. Filipino matchups, but a lot of times I feel the crowd atmpshere is a lot duller in Vegas than what you get at more of a local venue. Pavlik-Taylor II and Hopkins-Wright both come to mind as examples of recent fights that probably could've drawn better if they were held somewhere other than Vegas.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Maybe Arum thinks going to Vegas will help draw more of Margarito's Mexico/SoCal fans. But Margarito just doesn't have that big of a following, so any turnout among his fans will be outweighed by the negative factor of moving the fight 3,000 miles away from Cotto's much bigger NYC/Puerto Rican fanbase. Also, maybe Arum wants to prove that Cotto is more than just a "regional attraction," which is what the Mayweather camp keeps calling him.
I don't know when Iole filed his story, but before he heard this, I guess:

Bob Arum of Top Rank announced that WBA welterweight champion Miguel Cotto will defend his title against Antonio Margarito on July 26 at New York's Madison Square Garden. The fight is expected to land on HBO pay-per-view.
Arum (who promotes both fighters) also said that Margarito will vacate the IBF title he just won so he can face Cotto rather than mandatory challenger Joshua Clottey, whom he's already defeated (albeit unimpressively).
"The IBF made an order for the winner to fight Clottey. One title is more than enough for any fighter. I expect that Margarito will vacate the title and Clottey will fight for the vacant the title," Arum said.
Of course, this is all win-win-win for Arum, who promotes Clottey as well.

Arum is hyping the Cotto-Margarito fight as "the kind of fight that boxing needs. No old fighters. No 24/7. No fighters dropping F-bombs and no fighters going to nightclubs and throwing money around."

That's all well and good, though if Arum was really interested in "the kind of fight that boxing needs" he wouldn't put this one on PPV. In fact, he'd try to sell it to an over-the-air network or at least work out some kind of creative deal for a network replay of the fight. That's what boxing really needs. I mean, I have no objection to MMA getting a slot on CBS -- and of course whatever license fee CBS is paying to Gary Shaw's EliteXC for the whole series is far less than they'd have to pay for a single fight of this caliber -- but I am a bit mystified as to why network suits think that audience for MMA is really, significantly bigger than for a major, action fight as this one should be.

Of course, answering my own question, its the demographics, too. MMA's demo is largely young, white male. Boxing's, especially for this fight, will be somewhat older and largely Hispanic. Not nearly as interesting to netowrks and advertisers, I guess.
 

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Very disappointed in Clinton Woods - there was none of his usual firepower or his usual ability to turn it up when things aren't going his way. Really not sure what happened, but desperately disappointing.

Cintron-Margarito was just astounding to watch, how anyone can take the bombs Cintron was throwing and keep coming forward I'll never know, and I think Cintron was stunned by it too, as his resolve seemed to slip after landing a couple of monster shots. Margarito-Cotto will be an awesome fight, but Cotto has got to keep Margarito at distance, because that style of up close brawling really doesn't suit him.
 

BGrif21125

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If Cotto beats Margarito (and I think he will) then Cotto - Mayweather will be setting up to be a Duran - Leonard type fight. That fight could be one for the ages.
I'm obsessed with PFP rankings, so I've mentioned once or twice in here that there is a possible scenario (not likely, but possible) where Mayweather and Cotto could conceivably be the #1 and #2 PFP fighters by 2009. If they were to fight at that point, it would be the first #1 vs. #2 matchup in over 15 years, the last one being Chavez vs. Whitaker in '93. It's the rarest matchup in all of boxing.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Glen Johnson is still steamed about the decision going against him in the Chad Dawson fight last Saturday. He's posted a three-part statement on YouTube making his case. Here are the links:

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

I haven't watched the fight a second time yet, to score it myself. My impression was that it could have gone either way, though Johnson certainly did a lot more damage. I really feel bad for Johnson, though. This guy is a true fighter, who throughout his long career has proven that he will do what most fighters only say they'll do. That is, fight anyone, anywhere. And he does it extremely well and with class. He's really a fighter's fighter. I really hope that the WBC mandates a rematch. Dawson didn't seem inclined to give him one -- and who can blame him? He took a pretty good whipping. But Johnson deserves one.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I'm not sure I could be any less impressed with Calzaghe. He doesn't look like he has a punch that could knock anyone out. And he's still going to win this fight because it appears that 43 years old is about the cutoff point for Hopkins' career. Hopkins got the early knockdown, but it looks like as these rounds wear on, he simply doesn't have anything left and Calzaghe is winning rounds on activity, not necessarily because he's actually doing anything that should win the fight.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Low blow by Calzaghe, Hopkins is down. Not looking like a point deduction, but this is the second low blow against Calzaghe.
 

Deathofthebambino

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Calzaghe pretending to fuck Hopkins was the funniest thing I've seen in awhile.
That was pretty good.

As low blows go that wasn't much.

Hopkins Milked it for time - as is his right.

He's a smart fighter.
You're right about the low blow. Unfortunately, the reason it wasn't much is because nothing Calzaghe threw all night was much. I've never seen a world class boxer who seemed to have so little behind their punches. I think he threw more slaps than punches.

Hopkins is smart, right down to inducing head butts. I just dislike Hopkins so much, and I really wanted to root for Calzaghe, but I found myself not liking his game at all.

Calzaghe should win, but I have a weird feeling that Hopkins is going to steal a decision. Hopkins always seems to win the big fight.


Is De La Hoya washed up or something? I'll admit that I am not an avid follower, except of this thread, but Steve Forbes wasn't even that good on the Contender and he's getting a shot at the Golden Boy? Is it a tune-up?
 

shawnrbu

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Calzaghe by CompuBox blowout/Split Decision. I thought Hopkins was going to win when the score was announced 116-111. The fight I want to see next is Calzaghe vs. Johnson. It was supposed to happen in July 2006, but Calzaghe was hurt during training. However, Calzaghe vs. Jones seems the more likely choice next. That should be an entertaining fight.

DLH vs. Forbes is a total tune-up for Mayweather/DLH II in September. Oscar wants to fight a small slickster to ready himself for Floyd. If Forbes could pull the upset in two weeks, it would speed up the more anticipated (at least for me) Mayweather/Cotto fight.
 

Ahriman

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What I learned/think about tonight:

- Calzaghe is a slap fighter, plain and simple. Manny called his punching flurries amateurish and I couldn't agree more.

- It seems like Hopkins mind is as sharp as ever, but the body has slowed down a few notches too many.

- The decision was correct.

- Overall, this crop of fighters from across the pond is less than inspiring. They all seem to fall forward and try to turn everything into a glorified club fight for no good reason. Calzaghe would've won this fight going away if he had any ability to maintain some distance between Hopkins and himself.

- I can't wait for the Cotto-Margarito fight.
 

ElUno20

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When Floyd fights like that it's cowardice and soft but when Calzaghe does it, HBO analysts dub it "trading power for accuracy". lmao. Calzaghe fights like a god damn woman, not one punch he threw today did so much as to make Hopkins think twice. He landed some clean shots but even his clean shots had no power. He girl-slapped his way to a win. In the words of Shaq, "Not impressed, not impressed, not fucking impressed!"

I highly doubt he will ever fight Pavlik. He has made it extremely clear how important retiring undefeated is to him. After he gets his mega payday with Roy, I see no reason why he'll actually challenging himself and fight Pavlik. It'd be pretty stupid to take that big of a risk.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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This fight was just as ugly and sloppy as I expected it to be. But in the end, while it's true thet Calzaghe's punches were nothing much to fear, he did throw and land a hell of a lot of them. He clearly frustrated Hopkins who resorted to some very un-Hopkins-like aggression later in the fight when he was frustrated by Calzaghe. I agree that Calzaghe did not look "impressive." But when is the last time anyone looked impressive against Bernard Hopkins? I thought that Lampley (or was it Kellerman) was exactly right when he described Hopkins as a "negative force." He doesn't win by imposing his will through power or speed, he wins by figuring out what you're trying to do and doing everything he can, legal or illegal, to throw a monkey wrench in your works.

The problem was, Calzaghe was just too quick and too busy to be disrupted -- at least not disrupted enough. I had the 116-111 score myself, with Calzaghe winning the last 7 rounds in a row.

Not the most aesthetically pleasing or thrilling fight ever. But again, when you watch a Bernard Hopkins fight, you know what you're getting into. He wins ugly and he loses even uglier. No one should be the least bit surprised that this fight unfolded exactly the way it did.
 

BGrif21125

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This fight was just as ugly and sloppy as I expected it to be. But in the end, while it's true thet Calzaghe's punches were nothing much to fear, he did throw and land a hell of a lot of them. He clearly frustrated Hopkins who resorted to some very un-Hopkins-like aggression later in the fight when he was frustrated by Calzaghe. I agree that Calzaghe did not look "impressive." But when is the last time anyone looked impressive against Bernard Hopkins? I thought that Lampley (or was it Kellerman) was exactly right when he described Hopkins as a "negative force." He doesn't win by imposing his will through power or speed, he wins by figuring out what you're trying to do and doing everything he can, legal or illegal, to throw a monkey wrench in your works.

The problem was, Calzaghe was just too quick and too busy to be disrupted -- at least not disrupted enough. I had the 116-111 score myself, with Calzaghe winning the last 7 rounds in a row.

Not the most aesthetically pleasing or thrilling fight ever. But again, when you watch a Bernard Hopkins fight, you know what you're getting into. He wins ugly and he loses even uglier. No one should be the least bit surprised that this fight unfolded exactly the way it did.
Gene basically described my thoughts on the fight word-for-word above.

I've never seen a world class boxer who seemed to have so little behind their punches. I think he threw more slaps than punches.
The list isn't very long, but there are a notable few.
Willie Pep is the first guy that comes to mind. He couldn't knockout a flea, and he's generally regarded as one of the 5 best fighters to ever live. Pernell Whitaker (IMO the best fighter of the last 25 years) landed cleaner and more accurate punches than Calzaghe, but had a lower KO percentage over the course of his career.
Ivan Calderon, Cory Spinks and Paulie Malignaggi are all feather-fisted slappers who have enjoyed some level of success over the last few years. None of them are viewed as elite in the way that Calzaghe is, but they've all owned title belts at one time or another.

While Calzaghe's slapping style of punching may be somewhat maddening to watch (it frustrates me), he's still a truly elite fighter. There are so many elements to the game besides power, and Calzaghe is very good at most, if not all, of these things. It should also be mentioned that Calzaghe has suffered numerous hand injuries over the course of his career, and that affects his ability/willingness to really sit down on his punches.

Also, it should be mentioned that there is a long, long list of fighters who have gone 12 rounds with Bernard and never come close to hurting him. Hopkins has never been KO'd and has only been down once or twice. He has a granite chin and is a defensive master. A prime Felix Trinidad (one of the best punchers of the last 20 years) never came remotely close to hurting Hopkins. Nor did the likes of Roy Jones, Glen Johnson, Jermain Taylor, Antonio Tarver, etc.

Looking ahead, it certainly looks like Calzaghe-Jones will be the matchup. A prime Roy Jones at 168/175 would have demolished Calzaghe, but the old corpse of Roy Jones has the same problem Hopkins has, in that he can only fight about 60 seconds a round and spends the rest of the time laying against the ropes. Jones has managed to retain most of his once-freakish handspeed, but his legs are shot.

It's been an entertaining last few months, but we're hitting a bit of a dry spot now. There's the Oscar-Forbes snoozefest in 2 weeks, the Hatton/Malignaggi doubleheader, and the Mosley-Judah PPV (which I'll probably end up ordering). But nothing that really stands out.
 

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I think Calzaghe approached this fight the only way he could've to come out victorious -- beat Hopkins with his hand speed. Hopkins never throws much more than 40 punches per round and he's generally pretty accurate. He wins wins by pot shotting and holding and iron-clad defense. If Calzaghe had fought Hopkins' fight it would've been even more boring and he would've lost. Give credit to Calzaghe for being one of the very few (if only) opponents to actually turn the frustration tables on Hopkins.

To call Calzaghe a slap fighter is a bit much. Sure, he slaps when he's throwing those 12 punch speed combos but I've never seen him try to get away from an opponent and he's willing to stand in against bruisers. Anyone who saw him stand in front of Jeff Lacy and beat his eyes in for 12 rounds with crisp hard shots, and eating some of Lacy's famed hooks along the way, wouldn't ever call Calzaghe a prissy slap fighter in the same mold as a primed Chris Byrd.

I think Jones/Calzaghe will be entertaining and it wouldn't surprise me to see Calzaghe knock Jones out in the later rounds. Jones' style leaves his suspect chin exposed and he's shown a tendency to swell around the eyes later in his career. An opponent naturally bigger and certainly quicker,fresher and far more unorthodox (not to mention LH'ed) than Felix Trinidad will expose Jones. I think Pavlik/Calzaghe would be a terrific bout.

What I like about Calzaghe -- and we only saw glimpses of it last night because of Hopkins -- is that he'll always stand in and fight and has a tremendously pleasing style and attitude in the ring. If he thinks he's buzzed an opponent he'll go in to try to finish him. If he's hit hard he'll stay in the pocket and try to hit his opponent harder.
 

eddiew112

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The fight was about what I expected. Calzaghe's overall edge in speed and quickness made Bernard look flustered, and when was the last time you could say that? Calzaghe's slap-like punches might be annoying to watch, but if you watched him fight Lacy or Kessler, you would know that he can trade power shots back and forth when he feels it is beneficial to him. Plus, power is just one aspect (overrated, IMO) of a boxer's game. There is ring generalship, defense, accuracy, etc., all of which Calzaghe is very, very good at.

EDIT: Grif and Gene beat me to the punch with their analysis.
 

BGrif21125

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Just wanted to add that while the Oscar-Forbes fight itself isn't anything to get excited about, the Countdown special is highly recommended viewing, simply because the elders of the Mayweather clan are prominently featured.

I especially liked Floyd Sr.'s statement at one point that it was time to "grow up and smell the coffee."
 

inter tatters

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Can't disagree with anything that's been said before - Calzaghe did what he had to do. OK, he didn't throw the jab as often as he would normally and wasn't as fluent as usual, but who is against Hopkins?

One thing that erked me somewhat, and as you Guys don't get the same feed as we do you wouldn't have heard it, were the British Commentators ragging on Joe Cortez. Basically there argument was, how the hell can Hopkins get away with all the holding, hitting on the break and boreing in with his head, when Ricky Hatton was admonished the 1st time he even touched PBF in their fight?
After the fight one of the studio analysts - Former World Champ Barry McGuigan - said it right. From the word go, Roger Mayweather and all of PBF's corner were screaming at Cortez to stop Hatton from holding and hitting, as well as PBF just staring at Cortez and complaining, if Enzo Calzaghe and Joe C's corner done the same, maybe Cortez would've done something about it.

Thoughts anyone? Or are the Brit Commentators just paranoid when British fighters come to the US? After all, the main Guy on Commentary, a guy with over 40 years experience of calling fights, thought Hopkins might get the decision, just 'because they were fighting in the US!'
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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Can't disagree with anything that's been said before - Calzaghe did what he had to do. OK, he didn't throw the jab as often as he would normally and wasn't as fluent as usual, but who is against Hopkins?

One thing that erked me somewhat, and as you Guys don't get the same feed as we do you wouldn't have heard it, were the British Commentators ragging on Joe Cortez. Basically there argument was, how the hell can Hopkins get away with all the holding, hitting on the break and boreing in with his head, when Ricky Hatton was admonished the 1st time he even touched PBF in their fight?
After the fight one of the studio analysts - Former World Champ Barry McGuigan - said it right. From the word go, Roger Mayweather and all of PBF's corner were screaming at Cortez to stop Hatton from holding and hitting, as well as PBF just staring at Cortez and complaining, if Enzo Calzaghe and Joe C's corner done the same, maybe Cortez would've done something about it.

Thoughts anyone? Or are the Brit Commentators just paranoid when British fighters come to the US? After all, the main Guy on Commentary, a guy with over 40 years experience of calling fights, thought Hopkins might get the decision, just 'because they were fighting in the US!'
Not that "our" announcers are any better (though I thought this was one of the HBO crew's better performances overall), but yeah, I do think the British commentators are being slightly oversensitive, at least about Cortez.

First of all, as I said way back in December, I've never bought the argument that Joe Cortez did anything wrong in the Hatton fight. I think the difference here is that Hopkins is much more experienced and crafty than Hatton. He knows exactly what he can get away with and he also knows how to hold, grab and throw illegal punches out of the ref's line of vision. The TV may see clearly what he's up to, but the referee can't. It's not just Cortez he's put this over on. Hatton on the other hand, I think, is so accustomed to British refs who wouldn't give him a warning if he blasted his opponent with a shotgun, that he just bulls in, grabs and mauls, then gets all flustered when the referee tells him to cut the crap.

And in the British commentators' defense, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to think that a "hometown" (or "home country") decision might have gone Hopkins' way. It happens in boxing all the time. I think it's a credit to Calzaghe that he won the fight clearly enough to get a plausible, realistic score on two of three judges' cards. And even though I had Calzaghe winning pretty clearly, I can't fault the single judge who had Hopkins winning by a point. Many of the earlier rounds were very tough to score and again, Hopkins is clever enough that he can make it look like he's doing a lot when he really isn't doing very much.

I watched the fight again and on second viewing, I had it 117-110 for Calzaghe. Looking at it more closely, Calzaghe's dominance, in rounds 5-12 seemed very clear to me, and toward the end of the fight, Hopkins simply looked tired and overmatched. It even looked to me that Calzaghe was getting into Hopkins head in those final rounds -- which is something that would have once been unthinkable. Hopkins is the master of the "Jedi mind shit."

But the judges don't have the benefit of a second, televised viewing, so again, I have no problem with any of the scorecards -- or with the refereeing.
 

BGrif21125

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I think a big difference is that Bernard will often hold with one arm and then use the other to throw punches. Whereas Hatton will literally just barrel into his opponent with both arms and elbows and try to wrestle them into the ropes. And Hopkins is smart enough to be cute about it and to do things out of the ref's line of sight. Cortez warned Hopkins plenty of times and was paying attention to the holding, it just never got so bad that there needed to be any type of penalty.

The Hatton camp, Hatton fanbase, and Hatton himself would all do well to get over the Cortez fixation. As I'm sure I've said before, if Hatton fought Mayweather 10 times with 10 different refs, he'd get knocked out 10 times. They could bring over the Hatton-Tszyu ref and he'd still lose.
 

ElUno20

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The Hatton camp, Hatton fanbase, and Hatton himself would all do well to get over the Cortez fixation. As I'm sure I've said before, if Hatton fought Mayweather 10 times with 10 different refs, he'd get knocked out 10 times. They could bring over the Hatton-Tszyu ref and he'd still lose.
Bingo! The amazing part was watching the fight I was like "man, there too much f'n holding" but immediately after the fight Hatton's camp was complaining about not getting to fight "there" fight. So essentially they wanted MORE holding.

Either way, he held a ton and eventually tired out. Floyd did not.
 

Ahriman

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The list isn't very long, but there are a notable few.
Willie Pep is the first guy that comes to mind. He couldn't knockout a flea, and he's generally regarded as one of the 5 best fighters to ever live. Pernell Whitaker (IMO the best fighter of the last 25 years) landed cleaner and more accurate punches than Calzaghe, but had a lower KO percentage over the course of his career.
Ivan Calderon, Cory Spinks and Paulie Malignaggi are all feather-fisted slappers who have enjoyed some level of success over the last few years. None of them are viewed as elite in the way that Calzaghe is, but they've all owned title belts at one time or another.
I dunno, BGrif. I realize you aren't remotely even attempting to put Calzaghe in Willie Pep and Sweet Pea's class, but it just rubs me the wrong way that they're even in the same paragraph being used to justify JC's style. Especially Whitaker, who faught immeasurably better opponents throughout his career than Calzaghe could have ever hoped to. In my mind, Calzaghe has only had one and a half true tests in Kessler and Lacy. It's not like we're talking about a prime Hopkins (not even one from 5 years ago) here either, who most likely would've uglied the fight even worse and won.

I say that because I see lots of people glossing over Calzaghe's reciprocity in lunging toward Hopkins with his volleys and ultimately clinching. Thinking back on the fight, I can remember two, maybe three, instances where Calzaghe just kept his distance and threw a nice clean, sharp combination. A boxer doesn't need devastating power to be considered elite, as you've pointed out, but he does need to frequently land clean punches when he initiates the exchange. Sideways-pawing at an opponents shoulders in flurries at the end of rounds should never, ever been seen from a high quality boxer under any circumstances -- it's beyond amateurish and downright embarrassing.

Calzaghe has no excuse for the performance being that ugly, even against a certified mucker-up of fights like Hopkins, with the way people talk him up as being one of the elite fighters of the day.

These perpetual holders and clinchers from across the pond bore the snot out of me. Though, I'm willing to give Calzaghe a few more fights to change my perception of him. Hatton? No way, he's forever a club fighter in my mind.
 

BGrif21125

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I dunno, BGrif. I realize you aren't remotely even attempting to put Calzaghe in Willie Pep and Sweet Pea's class, but it just rubs me the wrong way that they're even in the same paragraph being used to justify JC's style. Especially Whitaker, who faught immeasurably better opponents throughout his career than Calzaghe could have ever hoped to.
I was simply responding to a statement someone made that they had never seen a world-class fighter with as little behind their punches as Calzaghe. I just listed a couple guys who were absolutely world-class and who had less of a punching reputation than even Calzaghe. It was nothing more than that.

As you said yourself, in no way was I even remotely putting Calzaghe in their league as a fighter. Because he's nowhere near that good. I was just showing that it is possible to be a top fighter even if you are not an authoritative puncher.

These perpetual holders and clinchers from across the pond bore the snot out of me.
Hatton is a chronic holder/clincher, but last Saturday, Hopkins was the one initiating all the holding, not Calzaghe.

Though, I'm willing to give Calzaghe a few more fights to change my perception of him.
Did you watch his fights against Lacy and Kessler? If not, you should check them out on youtube. Both impressive performances.

As I've said before, I'm not a big fan of Calzaghe's style, and he's definitely not one of my favorite guys to watch. But I don't think anyone can deny at this point that he's one of the 5 best fighters in the world. Some people would even say he's #2 (I wouldn't personally).
 

Ahriman

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Mar 21, 2006
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I was simply responding to a statement someone made that they had never seen a world-class fighter with as little behind their punches as Calzaghe. I just listed a couple guys who were absolutely world-class and who had less of a punching reputation than even Calzaghe. It was nothing more than that.
I know, man. I know. I just read it and a tangent that was already waiting to burst out of my fingers did. Sorry if it came off like I was attacking you.

Did you watch his fights against Lacy and Kessler?
Sure did. I've seen 4 of his fights - Castillio, Lacy, Kessler and Hopkins. He did look much, much better against the two you mentioned, but I would have chosen Hopkins to beat either of them had they fought this past weekend -- which, at this point in Hopkins career, isn't saying much for them.

Edit:
Hatton is a chronic holder/clincher, but last Saturday, Hopkins was the one initiating all the holding, not Calzaghe.
Guess we saw different things, then. Obviously Hopkins was doing his usual thing at a much lower level than he once did, but I saw Calzaghe do more than his fair share of the same.
 

Gene Conleys Plane Ticket

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MaxBoxing's Steve Kim says he's hearing that Kelly Pavlik-Joe Calzaghe is now a possibility for Nov. 15 -- instead of the somehwat interesting but basically useless Calzaghe-Jones. Of course, it depends on Pavlik avoiding a huge upset at the hands of another Welshman, Gary Lockett, on June 7.

Pav-Cal is an exciting fight and only increases my respect for both fighters for taking it (if it happens). It would happen at 168-pounds, apparently. For Pavlik, facing a Pound-for-pound world class fighter like Calzaghe is a huge step up. Given that Pavlik had trouble with the speed of Jermaine Taylor in their second fight (and even in the early stages of their first) it's difficult to imagine how he's going to cope with Calzaghe's quickness and volume punching. Pavlik is a better boxer and better overall fighter than Jeff Lacy ever was, but not unlike Lacy, his best chance is to land a huge shot. Lacy never really landed anything, but Kessler landed on Calzaghe and shook him up a couple of times. The difference is, Pavlik is a finisher. Kessler seemed too wary of Calzaghe's punch-volume to "go for it" when he had Joe hurt. Pavlik's specialty is the finishing touch.

The advantage Pavlikk might have is, oddly enough, the 168-pound weight limit. Joe looks like a real light heavyweight at this point and his struggles draining himself to get down to 168 over the last few year have been well-chronicled. Pavlik, on the other hand, has the body of a natural 168. He should be very string at that weight, especially against a guy who, in effect, is coming down in weight. It'll be slightly over a year on Nov. 15 since Calzaghe would have made the 168-limit for a fight. At age 36, it gets harder and harder to drop five or seven pounds whenever you feel like it. But for Pavlik, adding eight should only make him healthier.

Very exciting fight. I hope it comes together!
 

BGrif21125

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Very intriguing fight, and like you said above, I'd give both guys credit for taking it, because it's not the safe choice.

If Calzaghe can make the weight effectively, and if he doesn't get old overnight (always a possibility at his age), then I'd make him a solid favorite to win. Pavlik can definitely punch, but he's not much of a defensive fighter, so Calzaghe would likely be able to land early and often.

In fact, I don't really think there's much difference between Pavlik and the then-undefeated Kessler in terms of quality. Then again, I picked Pavlik to lose to Edison Miranda and Jermain Taylor, so I might not be the best accessor of his skills.
 

ElUno20

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Wow. Big balls by Calzaghe. I know Pavlik should get credit for taking the fight too but he's at a mcuh different point in his career. JC could have easily taken the Jones fight and retired undefeated. I Grammar is a concept I fail at still talked shit about him but that's largely because I'm a hater. The majority of the boxing public would have given him a pass.

As for the fight, it looks like it could be an all-timer. Two guys who love to throw punches. I'll give Pavlik the edge. Although he's a volume puncher, he puts a lot more behind his than JC does.