Sons of Peter McNeeley- Boxing Thread

ElUno20

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Fury’s hand speed for someone that looks like him and is as big as him impresses me.
I mean, wilder's corner had 0 answer for a basic ass 1-2 the entire fight. They wouldn't make it on the plane if i was his business manager.
 

Marciano490

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Wilder is a one trick pony who never thought to use a second move. With Fury’s partying he should’ve been throwing hooks or at least double jabs.

I will say I thought some of the early punches and the first knockdown were on punches behind Wilders Head
 

ElUno20

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Wilder is a one trick pony who never thought to use a second move. With Fury’s partying he should’ve been throwing hooks or at least double jabs.

I will say I thought some of the early punches and the first knockdown were on punches behind Wilders Head
Some? Almost all of them.

I'll add this fight has really crystalized how much ive become disconnected with boxing. Seeing those two in the ring with each gave me serious Sadam Ali-Muniguia vibes. The difference in size was too much for me to get into this.
 

Marciano490

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Some? Almost all of them.

I'll add this fight has really crystalized how much ive become disconnected with boxing. Seeing those two in the ring with each gave me serious Sadam Ali-Muniguia vibes. The difference in size was too much for me to get into this.
Yeah I thought Bayless was doing Wilder a favor on some of the breaks, and giving him a lot of time to recover while talking to both fighters and I also thought some of those slips were technically knockdowns, but missing a couple of those hard shots well behind the ear was unforgivable.

And I say that with all respect to what Fury did. He came out, called his shot, and enforced his will. He ate 3-4 big right hands from a fresh Wilder and didn’t blink, sat on his punches, threw monstrous right hooks to the body, leaned on Wilder, shielded Bayless and then choked Wilder and did everything really well. But, those early shots behind the head...

I also don’t see why boxing doesn’t have a 221 or 231 division. I’ve been saying that since Lewis/Klitschko. I think Fury is very talented, but there’s a whole waste of guys like Chris Byrd or Vasily Jirov who would’ve been great heavyweights in the 70s or 90s that just had no shot once the 240+ dudes came in.
 

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I mean, wilder's corner had 0 answer for a basic ass 1-2 the entire fight. They wouldn't make it on the plane if i was his business manager.
I didn’t see the fight but from what I gather this morning from all the accounts, his corner also left him out there too long, maybe to the point of permanent injury or worse. I know it’s hard to throw in the towel in a heavyweight prize fight but if you gotta do it...
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

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Yeah I thought Bayless was doing Wilder a favor on some of the breaks, and giving him a lot of time to recover while talking to both fighters and I also thought some of those slips were technically knockdowns, but missing a couple of those hard shots well behind the ear was unforgivable.

And I say that with all respect to what Fury did. He came out, called his shot, and enforced his will. He ate 3-4 big right hands from a fresh Wilder and didn’t blink, sat on his punches, threw monstrous right hooks to the body, leaned on Wilder, shielded Bayless and then choked Wilder and did everything really well. But, those early shots behind the head...

I also don’t see why boxing doesn’t have a 221 or 231 division. I’ve been saying that since Lewis/Klitschko. I think Fury is very talented, but there’s a whole waste of guys like Chris Byrd or Vasily Jirov who would’ve been great heavyweights in the 70s or 90s that just had no shot once the 240+ dudes came in.
I don't see the need for a new weight division. There is a weight where the gain in power and strength no longer compensates for the loss in hand speed and stamina and historically the point of dimishing returns is south of 220. In their primes, Louis and Foreman weighed 215, Ali 210 and Frazier 205. During their eras, there was no rule against big people participating in boxing. There are no longer great American heavyweights which is why the European giants have taken over the sport.

I would take Frazier over Fury all day long. He could pound Fury with left hooks to body at will and go headhunting when Fury when dropped his right hand to stop the body shots. Frazier was also a machine, he seemed to get stronger as the fight wore on.
 

Marciano490

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I don't see the need for a new weight division. There is a weight where the gain in power and strength no longer compensates for the loss in hand speed and stamina and historically the point of dimishing returns is south of 220. In their primes, Louis and Foreman weighed 215, Ali 210 and Frazier 205. During their eras, there was no rule against big people participating in boxing. There are no longer great American heavyweights which is why the European giants have taken over the sport.

I would take Frazier over Fury all day long. He could pound Fury with left hooks to body at will and go headhunting when Fury when dropped his right hand to stop the body shots. Frazier was also a machine, he seemed to get stronger as the fight wore on.
No offense, but you’re spouting a ton of nonsense in this thread. Frazier was absolutely murdered by Foreman. He’d have no shot against Fury.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

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No offense, but you’re spouting a ton of nonsense in this thread. Frazier was absolutely murdered by Foreman. He’d have no shot against Fury.
Frazier was never the same after the first Ali fight and Fury doesn't nearly have the pop that Foreman had. If size is everything, there should be some NFL linemen that could kick Fury's ass.

I post in a lot of different forums and I never insult people.
 

Marciano490

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Frazier was never the same after the first Ali fight and Fury doesn't nearly have the pop that Foreman had. If size is everything, there should be some NFL linemen that could kick Fury's ass.

I post in a lot of different forums and I never insult people.
I’m not trying to insult you, but your first point was that fighters can’t change styles, which just isn’t true as proved last night.

Frazier was a decent fighter, but even Oscar Bonavena put him down twice. Tyson Fury would knock Frazier out in a round or two.

I also disagree that the Fury of last night didn’t have Foreman’s pop. Foreman committed to his punches way more than Fury used to, but the 270 pound Fury of last night who sat on his punches absolutely hits as hard as George.
 

Patek's 3 Dingers

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I’m not trying to insult you, but your first point was that fighters can’t change styles, which just isn’t true as proved last night.

Frazier was a decent fighter, but even Oscar Bonavena put him down twice. Tyson Fury would knock Frazier out in a round or two.

I also disagree that the Fury of last night didn’t have Foreman’s pop. Foreman committed to his punches way more than Fury used to, but the 270 pound Fury of last night who sat on his punches absolutely hits as hard as George.
I don't believe that Fury necessarily changed his style; it was more of a strategy to be more aggressive compared to their first fight.

Frazier was a decent fighter? I don't know if you're writing him off because of his size, but his skill level was off the charts compared to today's fighters. A fighter being much larger doesn't negate those skills. Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper knocked Ali down and guy named Tony "Two Ton" Galento knocked down Louis so I'm not sure what that tells you. Over a long career there will be some lucky punches.

Fury is not a power puncher. He connects with a lot of punches, but has only has 20 KOs in 30 fights. When Foreman connected with a power punch the fight didn't last much longer.



If you do some research regarding the comparison of the great fighters of the '70s and '80s to today's champions, made by trainers, ex-fighters and boxing historians most believe the current crop doesn't matchup.

You didn't address my point as to why there were never huge fighters until fairly recently. At one time, boxing was the only possible ticket for escaping poverty for many athletes. Were the big guys sent packing when they showed up at the boxing gym?
 

Marciano490

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I don't believe that Fury necessarily changed his style; it was more of a strategy to be more aggressive compared to their first fight.

Frazier was a decent fighter? I don't know if you're writing him off because of his size, but his skill level was off the charts compared to today's fighters. A fighter being much larger doesn't negate those skills. Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper knocked Ali down and guy named Tony "Two Ton" Galento knocked down Louis so I'm not sure what that tells you. Over a long career there will be some lucky punches.

Fury is not a power puncher. He connects with a lot of punches, but has only has 20 KOs in 30 fights. When Foreman connected with a power punch the fight didn't last much longer.



If you do some research regarding the comparison of the great fighters of the '70s and '80s to today's champions, made by trainers, ex-fighters and boxing historians most believe the current crop doesn't matchup.

You didn't address my point as to why there were never huge fighters until fairly recently. At one time, boxing was the only possible ticket for escaping poverty for many athletes. Were the big guys sent packing when they showed up at the boxing gym?
In what division does the current crop not match up besides heavyweights? Because there have been great fighters for the last two decades from 122-154.

There have always been large fighters. Jess Willard had the title in, what, 1919. Primo Carnera had the title in the ‘30s.

I imagine there were fewer large fighters in olden days for the same reason there were fewer 7 footers in the NBA or 6’4 infielders or 6’6 outfielders.

I’m not writing Frazier off because of his size. I’m writing him off because of his resume. If he doesn’t win that first Ali fight - and you acknowledged he still got the hell beat out of him - he’s a pretty meh heavyweight. I admire his style and toughness, but he wouldn’t be a heavyweight in the modern era and wouldn’t have a chance against Fury.

When you say things like size doesn’t negate skill, I’m unsure what you’re talking about. Ignoring weight classes for a second, look what happened to Holyfield - a bigger and better fighter than Frazier - when the super heavies came around. Look at a slick fighter like Chris Byrd who would’ve been champ in any other era.

Yes, a giant who sucks can be knocked out like Willard by Dempsey or Valuev by whoever, but Fury is as good a boxer as Frazier was, just 10” and 70 pounds heavier. Frazier always got hit coming in and would’ve been annihilated by Fury. He also wouldn’t have had the power to keep Fury off him.

I know it’s fashionable to talk about the good old days and good old fighters, but you’re way off here.

You’re also way off saying Fury didn’t change his style last night. He very clearly did. And he is a pretty big puncher when he wants to be. Like I said, Foreman sat down into every punch and just came forward and backwards. He was able to get away with it because he was so much larger than almost anyone else. Fury mostly slapped and danced his way through his other fights.

Last night, when he wanted to punch, he did just that against a guy who’d been down once and eaten plenty of clean shots from Ortiz.
 

luckiestman

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I think Fury would have some real problems with skilled heavyweights like Holmes, Ali and Lewis. Riddick Bowe who trains would be a bad matchup for him too. Mike T might be too short.
 

Marciano490

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I think Fury would have some real problems with skilled heavyweights like Holmes, Ali and Lewis. Riddick Bowe who trains would be a bad matchup for him too. Mike T might be too short.
Agreed with all this. Prime Klitschkos as well.

Tyson never developed an sort of jab or ability to counter fighters who tied him up inside. That’s why he lost twice to Holyfield, and even though he was past his prime, also to Lewis and McBride.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Agreed with all this. Prime Klitschkos as well.

Tyson never developed an sort of jab or ability to counter fighters who tied him up inside. That’s why he lost twice to Holyfield, and even though he was past his prime, also to Lewis and McBride.
Though not traditional, wasnt Tysons uppercut his counter to guys that tied him up?
 

Marciano490

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Though not traditional, wasnt Tysons uppercut his counter to guys that tied him up?
If he was throwing the uppercut, he wasn’t tied up. Holyfield and Lewis tied him up the second he got inside. Other guys left his hands free and that’s why he was able to throw that hook to body, uppercut combo.
 

djbayko

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So was he concussed or just really out of shape.
Not a doctor, but fatigue doesn't make sense to me at all. He couldn't walk or stand up straight. Had to be a concussion or some sort of equilibrium problem from being belted in the ear area, even if his drum wasn't busted.
 

Marciano490

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Not a doctor, but fatigue doesn't make sense to me at all. He couldn't walk or stand up straight. Had to be a concussion or some sort of equilibrium problem from being belted in the ear area, even if his drum wasn't busted.
It must’ve been I guess. I can’t really remember something else like that where a fighter was goofy for that long. And Wilder usually recuperates pretty quick.
 

Marciano490

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Ugh I like Wilder and really respected how he handled himself in the aftermath, so I wish he wouldn’t do that.

No way he wouldn’t have had to try that on beforehand and see it’s weight. And I’ve seen dozens of non worldclass, well under 200 pound people train with 50 pound weight vests on. A pro boxer gets worn out by that? Nah.

Plus, he was in the ring standing still for how long out of costume during the announcements and anthems? This is one of the lamest excuses I’ve ever heard.
 

djbayko

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Ugh I like Wilder and really respected how he handled himself in the aftermath, so I wish he wouldn’t do that.

No way he wouldn’t have had to try that on beforehand and see it’s weight. And I’ve seen dozens of non worldclass, well under 200 pound people train with 50 pound weight vests on. A pro boxer gets worn out by that? Nah.

Plus, he was in the ring standing still for how long out of costume during the announcements and anthems? This is one of the lamest excuses I’ve ever heard.
I agree. His post-fight speech was pitch perfect, considering the circumstances. I've worn 45-lb weight vests. Yeah, it's a little uncomfortable, but it's not the end of the world to wear one for a few minutes (they showed him air sparring in the locker room just before his walk, so he had it on for the the minimum amount of time necessary. I'm also not in his condition. Weak excuse.

Oh, and he also went after his corner today, saying there would be "consequences"- not for lack of adjustments - but for throwing in the towel! This, presumably after he had a chance to re-watch his performance. That's just sickening and doesn't seem fair to put that kind of pressure on corner men in the future. I'm sure it's a terribly difficult decision to begin with. Nobody wants to do it.
 

Marciano490

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I was at a bar and couldn’t really hear what was being sad between rounds. But I didn’t catch a ton of communication between Wilder and his corner despite the fact he looked off for 4+ rounds and very wobbly in the corner. If they weren’t warning him of how dire his situation was and that they would throw in the towel soon, I can see being pissed.

He wasn’t in any particular jeopardy during that exchange, which actually ended with him throwing a decent counter hook.
 

Marciano490

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Peak Mke Tson either gets an early knockout or loses in the 7th 8th. There is a pretty good chance if got inside TGK's rsch he puts him out.
I’m not sure he could. Peak Tyson couldn’t really catch up to Quick Tillis, and Fury is bigger, better and smarter.
 

Marciano490

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People always talk about his power, but Mike’s footwork was incredible - he and Duran were the dudes whose feet I’d just watch during fights, and his grasp of the “science” of boxing is amazing.

Like, the power is nice, but the angles are incredible.

Unfortunately, as you see there, it came at the price of developing a decent jab, which I think cost him against Holyfield and taller fighters.
 

Marciano490

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Wilder exercises the rematch clause to fight Fury in July 18.

I respect the moxie, but he needs a total rebuild. He just lost, what, 17 of 19 rounds to Fury? He needs to learn a jab. Angles. Body shots. I don’t see anything changing in the span of a few months unless the game plan is once again hoping to land a big right hand.

I’ll say though, he caught Fury clean 2-3 times in the second fight, and it didn’t phase Tyson with the extra weight.
 

EvilEmpire

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I wonder how much of a payday Wilder would have passed up if he hadn't exercised the rematch clause.

Probably hard to do in a career like that, even if he would perform better with more time and a rebuild. Delaying increases the chance a rematch never happens.
 

Marciano490

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I wonder how much of a payday Wilder would have passed up if he hadn't exercised the rematch clause.

Probably hard to do in a career like that, even if he would perform better with more time and a rebuild. Delaying increases the chance a rematch never happens.
Interesting point. Unless something tragic happens, though, I imagine they’d fight again regardless because the heavyweight division is still pretty barren.

The other money fight out there is with Joshua, but I believe he already has a fight for June/July. I think both Wilder and Fury can beat him. Obviously, Fury is the bigger fight right now, not only because all the titles are involved, but they can probably sell out 100k seat stadium in England for that one.

Still, Wilder could probably have made decent money against Andy Ruiz in a fairly safe, but fun fight, or Whyte (sp?) who once held the title and fought on the undercard of his last fight. Then, take on either Joshua after he fought Fury and either regain the belts or get his prestige back up for the trilogy.
 

EvilEmpire

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That all makes sense. Still, with Fury's substance abuse history, I think I'd really want to cash that check sooner rather than later. And once Joshua becomes available, who knows how much the timeline could get stretched out?
 

Marciano490

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That all makes sense. Still, with Fury's substance abuse history, I think I'd really want to cash that check sooner rather than later. And once Joshua becomes available, who knows how much the timeline could get stretched out?
That’s a fair point with Fury’s history. Obviously - as we’ve seen with Josh Gordon and so many others - it’s a lifelong, daily battle. But, Fury seems to have a solid support group, including his wife and young children, and to relish not only the spotlight the titles have afforded him, but his status as a role model for people with mental health and addiction issues.

The other thing to keep in mind is that both Fury and Wilder are dynamic personalities that will have tons of opportunities to make money after their boxing careers are over.

I believe Wilder’s fiancée is already a bit of a reality TV star, and he’ll doubtless also have endorsement, announcing and other marketing opportunities that most boxers don’t get nowadays.

I think this was ultimately a pride and not financial decision for him, and I respect his bravery. The smart, and likely more remunerative decision long term, is to take a retune up fight, then go after Joshua after the Fury fight. Either Joshua will have all the belts, or both will need a stepping stone win before getting back in with Fury.

It’s nice to have a bit of an Ali/Frazier/Foreman set up. But, just like Frazier could never beat Foreman but always give Ali close fights, I’m thinking Wilder will never beat Fury, but be very competitive with Joshua, if not outright beat him.
 

EvilEmpire

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It’s nice to have a bit of an Ali/Frazier/Foreman set up. But, just like Frazier could never beat Foreman but always give Ali close fights, I’m thinking Wilder will never beat Fury, but be very competitive with Joshua, if not outright beat him.
I don't know much about boxing, but this sounds right to me. And I do wish Wilder would have waited and refined his skills some more, assuming he can refine his skills some more.

I'm a Fury fan. I hope he can keep his demons at bay and continue fighting for a long time. I'm still amazed at how much skill and ability that giant man has, and hows much he can change his style based on the needs of a given fight.
 

Marciano490

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I don't know much about boxing, but this sounds right to me. And I do wish Wilder would have waited and refined his skills some more, assuming he can refine his skills some more.

I'm a Fury fan. I hope he can keep his demons at bay and continue fighting for a long time. I'm still amazed at how much skill and ability that giant man has, and hows much he can change his style based on the needs of a given fight.
He’s an unbelievably skilled boxer. It’s literally in his blood, though. He’s supposedly related to Bartley Gorman, among other gypsy boxing champs.

I don’t know if you’ve ever gotten into the weeds in England underground boxing, but it was nuts. You had guys like Gorman, Charles Bronson (watch the Tom Hardy movie!), the Krays, Lenny McLean - most of them hardcore gangsters who couldn’t get licensed so they fought on underworld cards.

I always loved this video of Lenny - look how well he moves for his size and age, forget that Tyson video luckiestman posted last week.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DraD1LFGkr8
 

EvilEmpire

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I haven't followed underground boxing very much at all, though some of those names are familiar.

That is an awesome video. Lot to be said for great genes and special talent.
 

Marciano490

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I haven't followed underground boxing very much at all, though some of those names are familiar.

That is an awesome video. Lot to be said for great genes and special talent.
Of course, the genes also help insofar as he got very early exposure to a sport where most people in his weight class don’t start until flunking out of other sports in high school or college.

And yeah, I love that video. That’s a dude you meet and just yessir, excuse me sir, whatever you say sir. I have no illusions that even at whatever age he is in that video he couldn’t rip my heart out of my chest, and you can tell without even knowing his name or story.
 

EvilEmpire

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That’s a dude you meet and just yessir, excuse me sir, whatever you say sir. I have no illusions that even at whatever age he is in that video he couldn’t rip my heart out of my chest, and you can tell without even knowing his name or story.
Yes, exactly. Well put. I've met, not many, but a few dangerous people. Sometimes you just know.
 

Marciano490

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There’s a heavyweight eliminator fight for free on Fox coming up. Kownacki is supposed to be a decent prospect.
 

Marciano490

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All these heavyweights are 6’6+ now. When I first started boxing, you could be 6’1-3 and be very comfortable in that division. It’s insane.
 

Marciano490

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Known moron Billy Joe Saunders, who was scheduled to fight Canelo, had his British boxing license suspended for making a video showing me how to knock out women who were getting on their nerves. I shit you not.