A team that I think would be interested in Marcus is GSW. Don't see a direct trade fit (they basically only have Wiseman as a tradeable player) but if Marcus goes, they might be a team to keep an eye on.
Smart Move: Keep or Say Goodbye to Marcus?
- Thread starter djbayko
- Start date
Marcus and TL for Wiseman.
* Warriors gain impact player who fits championship window and make positional swap at 5.
* Celtics add the highest upside player on rookie deal.
Who says no?
I agree probably the Warriors, but also the problem with GSW trades is... they just don't have any bodies to salary match everyone is either making a TON or nothing.
This is their cap next year:
Steph: 45.8M
Klay: 38M
Wiggins: 31.6M
Green: 24M
Wiseman 9.2M
Looney- PO that he isn't taking (5.2M, he'll get more than that easily)
Poole: 2.2M
Lee: 1.9M (non-guaranteed)
Mulder 1.8M (non-guaranteed)
Paschall: 1.8M
Smailagic1.8M (non-guaranteed)
Anderson 1.7M
They probably need to find a taker for one of their 4 big deals to break it up into smaller deals.
Marcus for Wiseman JUST doesn't work, but they could add one of the non-guaranteed guys and the Celtics could cut him. Getting to TL as well is tough, they'd need to add 2 more of their cheap guys.
This is their cap next year:
Steph: 45.8M
Klay: 38M
Wiggins: 31.6M
Green: 24M
Wiseman 9.2M
Looney- PO that he isn't taking (5.2M, he'll get more than that easily)
Poole: 2.2M
Lee: 1.9M (non-guaranteed)
Mulder 1.8M (non-guaranteed)
Paschall: 1.8M
Smailagic1.8M (non-guaranteed)
Anderson 1.7M
They probably need to find a taker for one of their 4 big deals to break it up into smaller deals.
Marcus for Wiseman JUST doesn't work, but they could add one of the non-guaranteed guys and the Celtics could cut him. Getting to TL as well is tough, they'd need to add 2 more of their cheap guys.
Smart and TT for Oubre and Wiseman. But...GS says no to that, which means that Boston needs to throw in more. They include either Boston's 2021 first round pick *or* Romeo (the salaries still work). Or maybe, if necessary, both of those guys. Depends on how GS feels about Romeo. But probably Boston would need to throw in both of those guys.
So...
Smart, TT, Romeo, 2021 1st rounder
for
Oubre, Wiseman
Pretty sure that GS likely still says no to that, but it all depends on how they feel about Wiseman I suppose. If they've soured on him, then maybe they pull the trigger on this. If they love him still, it would be hard to move him in this trade.
So...
Smart, TT, Romeo, 2021 1st rounder
for
Oubre, Wiseman
Pretty sure that GS likely still says no to that, but it all depends on how they feel about Wiseman I suppose. If they've soured on him, then maybe they pull the trigger on this. If they love him still, it would be hard to move him in this trade.
Kelly Oubre as a return for Marcus Smart is hilarious. I don't think Boston should trade Smart unless there is a compelling chemistry reason to do so but if they do, please let it be for Oubre since the Celtics aren't likely to get real value for him. If Smart drives you nuts, watch Oubre play hoops for a few minutes...
Actually, this is Oubre's last year of his contract, so he becomes a FA after the season, it appears. So not a trade candidate anyway.
I assumed you were considering a S&T. I actually am rooting for this exact deal to happen. This forum would absolutely love an Oubre for Smart swap - the content would be off the charts.
Correct and either way it doesn’t matter what contract filler we take back. The entire point on our end is to get a raw yet high upside guy in Wiseman.
I know what you meant. Wiseman would provide great content too. It would be like morphing all of the commentary on TimeLord, Grant Williams, Langford, Nesmith and multiple big lineups into one thread. Wiseman is very raw and there are more than a few Warrior fans concerned about his development. My view is that they, like many people here, underestimate the NBA adjustment period, especially for bigs. I don't see the Warriors moving on from him yet, especially for that package which does nothing for their front court depth and nothing for their spacing (they are pretty good defensively based on the metrics but we all know those can be discounted). It feels like a Wiseman thread arc here would look something like this:
Elation with comparisons to a KD/KG hybrid ceiling or something like that -> recalibration to a lower ceiling based on actual game play -> people complaining about him being lost/injured/slow/bad hands/etc -> outright loathing and a view that while Smart absolutely had to be gone, Danny messed this trade up.
Sure, except it does matter if that filler is a sign and trade because we’d then be hard capped. That, in turn, would foreclose adding any additional talent (more or less), including keeping Fournier, using the taxpayer MLE, or using the rest of the Hayward TPE.
I don’t mind that as Wiseman’s long term potential wild surely justify passing on JAG’s and paying Fournier 4/$100m+ isn’t on my summer wishlist.
Please, no trading veterans for raw high upside kids.
Got plenty of kids here.
It's time to add veterans to the mix.
Wiseman isn’t just any kid. He’s a higher upside version of TL so we wouldn’t be adding youth only replacing it with a much better version.
Right, at the expense of Fournier, Smart, and an MLE-level player. That might not be adding youth, but it is subtracting established talent.
He's a kid that won't help you next year nearly as much as Smart/Williams does.
So, burn another year of Brown/Tatum?
I know everyone looks at them as young kids with plenty of time, but when this season wraps Boston has them under control for 3 and 4 years respectively.
Take another step back to add yet another kid, now you're looking at 2 and 3 years left for them.
It's not the time to trade vets for lottery tickets. They need a better supporting cast. Now.
Fournier is a FA who is going to get paid a ton of money. This trade would also protect Ainge from himself. I’m not really worried about a non-impact bench veteran if it resulted in us acquiring Wiseman.
I’d bet against him getting paid a ton of money. He was just traded for two second round picks, which means no one really thought he was worth much of anything on his current deal. He’s an established vet who has no upside and isn’t good enough to be a building block. He’s a useful player, and he’s worth more than the full MLE, but he isn’t worth 20/year and he has no real upside to convince someone to pay him more than his production merits. That could be wrong. Every year there are a few surprising overpays, but he is the type of vet that normally ends up extracting a comfortably above MLE deal to stay put because his currently over the cap team cannot risk saying no even though no under the cap team is likely to actually pay him more than the full MLE.
NG didn't get moved because no team that needed a player like him had the cap space or a spare contract to match his salary other than BOS. During the offseason, I could see a team or two talking themselves into him.
In a world where GH gets $30M a year and we're talking about Marcus Smart for $20M a year, one would think NG could get some team to offer him $20M a year for a couple of years.
Yea agreed, wouldn't be shocked to see him return for 4yrs ~ $70MM. The flat cap isn't helping player wage inflation after the owners have taken it on the chin.
Wouldn't the world be a better place if we continue to see wage inflation from the bottom and saw multi- millionaires slowed? (the Arena security guard, hospitality people or concession person getting a decent wage at the expense of an extra million for the players/owners would be a nice ancillary benefit after COVID).
Small nit to pick, but I do think the TPE helped lower the cost of acquiring EF or what Wade said on the acquisition. BUT don't think there are any other teams that will talk themselves into a 4yr Fournier commitment. I've seen enough to believe, when healthy, he'll fit in really well around the Jays.
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Danny/the team is at the stage where they need to package a 1st with some other young players to add a top 7 rotational vet. Fill out the rest of the roster (7-12) with professional vets on the cheap (see Portis, Noel, Bullock, Forbes, Howard, Ellington, Nwaba, Niang, Theis, etc)
Use the 2nd round to draft an upperclassman that can contribute at the end of the bench or euro stash. No more kids that Brad will have zero confidence in playing.
I think Wiseman is a great target.
I don't think adding an Oubre S&T to it makes any sense at all.
Marcus and a pick? Sure. Marcus a pick and another player with a 3rd team making salaries work... sure.
Wiseman makes sense if you are looking to create flexibility by moving Marcus, and replacing him with Fournier, and using the young guys (plus maybe a TT trade or the remaining TPE to get another vet 2/3 or 3/4) because he gives you a very high upside big with a reasonable contract.
Getting Wiseman at the expense of your wings makes this team worse for 2-3 years, at which point you have to start thinking about whether you can keep Brown and Tatum (probably not if they are on a sinking ship).
I don't think adding an Oubre S&T to it makes any sense at all.
Marcus and a pick? Sure. Marcus a pick and another player with a 3rd team making salaries work... sure.
Wiseman makes sense if you are looking to create flexibility by moving Marcus, and replacing him with Fournier, and using the young guys (plus maybe a TT trade or the remaining TPE to get another vet 2/3 or 3/4) because he gives you a very high upside big with a reasonable contract.
Getting Wiseman at the expense of your wings makes this team worse for 2-3 years, at which point you have to start thinking about whether you can keep Brown and Tatum (probably not if they are on a sinking ship).
While people desperate to trade Marcus are talking about Marcus getting a 4/80+ contract, I doubt there are many GMs that eager to pay a sixth man that. And Gordon Hayward is a lot better than Never Google when he's healthy. Charlotte was gambling on Hayward ditching his bad luck and that he'd be a 20/6/4 guy for them. And on the rare occasions that he was healthy, he delivered the performance. Now we could argue the wisdom of betting on Hayward's health, but when you're the Hornets you likely take the gamble just to cease being a bottom dweller.
I’m getting here as well. The Celtics roster has certainly had atrocious luck with injuries, but that has somewhat masked the fact they haven’t been built to win.
Perhaps more accurately, there were significant competing agendas to winning: conserve assets, roster flexibility, save money, hoard picks, hold onto youth, avoid tax, etc. winning has to be the only thing: I’m sick of rosters that are unbalanced from day 1 to serve some longer term master.
Just win next year Danny! The Js window ain’t getting more open
If the objective is to win basketball games now and worry about the future down the road - and that is where the Celtics should be right now imo - trading Marcus Smart for picks and or young talent is counter to that. James Wiseman or even some upperclassman is highly unlikely to help you win now or even in two years. If the objective is to get Marcus Smart off the Celtics so we don't have to suffer all of his flaws anymore, that is a different story.
Edit: this says nothing about the hypothetical trade which really has no fit for Golden State. Unfortunately, their needs going forward are similar to the Celtics.
Edit: this says nothing about the hypothetical trade which really has no fit for Golden State. Unfortunately, their needs going forward are similar to the Celtics.
I think the objective to trading Smart is to find a player who is a better fit. If that player happens to be younger, you do it. Chances are that player isn't available and if he is, will cost a lot more than Marcus Smart.
Plus I think it depends on the upside of the player coming back and how far along they think said player is. If the C's could get LaMelo or Haliburton for Smart, I'm guessing almost everyone here would drive Smart to the airport. Young talent isn't necessarily the problem.
You can't think of a Marcus trade in a vacuum either. The point of a Marcus trade is about where you can add talent at what long-term price, and where you have playing time.
Marcus to me is an okay but not great fit who is about to be due for a raise.
Trading Marcus for a young player with more upside isn't necessarily counter to winning now, if that player is at a position of need and you backfill Marcus using other means.
A young big is a need... if you can fill that longish term with Marcus, well you have a lot of guys that can already fill some of his minutes, and you have ways to get more. It's not clear there is a way to get a long-term big outside of a trade.
Marcus to me is an okay but not great fit who is about to be due for a raise.
Trading Marcus for a young player with more upside isn't necessarily counter to winning now, if that player is at a position of need and you backfill Marcus using other means.
A young big is a need... if you can fill that longish term with Marcus, well you have a lot of guys that can already fill some of his minutes, and you have ways to get more. It's not clear there is a way to get a long-term big outside of a trade.
Right. It's James Wiseman. It's not Darius Bazley. We aren't getting Wiseman for Smart and TL anyway.
True. I think the thought process is important though. That's the kind of deal we should be looking for... Smart for a rookie contract 5 or 4, re-sign Fournier, then backfilling that spot with a combination of guys we have on the roster and somebody we can get for the remainder of the MLE, or TT plus.
Yeah. I keep mentioning Huerter. The Hawks had interest in Smart and Huerter is an RFA after next year. The Hawks can also trade Huerter straight up for Smart so it saves the C's 10 mil in the process.
Huerter is someone who could provide value now with the chance to improve. He also shouldn't be super expensive and if he is, it's probably a good thing.
sell Sacramento on Smart + TT vet leadership/defense for
Wright + Holmes (S&T)
fill a pick in around it
Wright + Holmes (S&T)
fill a pick in around it
I think it's an obvious backwards move because it means you also can't sign Fournier likely if you hard-cap yourself.
I'm not even this extreme.
Just add one quality guy using their 1st round pick and make the team take Carsen Edwards, maybe Larry Nance?
Add a cheap vet to take Semis spot, sign a minimum 3rd string center to take Kornets spot, or Kornet himself if they can't do better.
Then let the young players they currently have earn their minutes, and the ones that fail are moved at the deadline if they need a boost.
Assuming the Celtics re-sign Fournier, and/or no team miraculously takes Kemba without tucking Boston with another onerous contract back, almost no chance the Celtics can take back an expensive guy in sign-and-trade.
Near impossible to stay under apron with those two, Tatum, Brown and an expensive S&T guy.
A couple weeks of watching Holmes every night and Celtics fans will want to throw him into the Charles with a weighted vest wrapped around him.
Kinda hoping they don't trade their 1st round pick so they can draft their 3rd string center. I also don't think the pick will have much value and that there are too many players that need development... but 3rd big is the spot to do it.
TL is now more of a sure thing when he plays so if the C's go into 2021 with AN, RL, 1st to develop, PP, they are fine. That requires moving on from Carsen Edwards and Grant Williams.
3rd string Centers play real minutes (especially with TL). They can pick up vet 5s on the cheap, I listed a half dozen a month ago
I used to be a fan but yeah. I'm not sure I'd want him on anything longer than a 1 year deal and he's not really the guy to pair up with TL. He misses a bunch of games too.
Marvin Bagley and Delon Wright for Thompson and Smart may be something. I know opinions on Bagley differ but I'm pretty sure you are a Bagley guy. Bagley is also an RFA after next year, Wright would be UFA. I could maybe see the Kings doing something close to this. It might need a little work.
Bagley is also another guy who is always injured tho.
yeah, it's more long term. I'm not a draftnik but there are usually lengthy, athletic bigs with upside to be drafted after the lottery. TL was one. I'd only want them to take that player if he were BPA though and chances of that happening are slim.
I think it's fine to carry 4 guys to develop on a team with NBA title hopes. Roster sizes are 15, they used to be 12. Most teams would have their 1st rounder and sometimes 2nd rounders in their lineup. Carrying more than 4 becomes an issue.
It's not about carrying another mid-first round pick on next years roster.
Of course they'd have space to do it.
I think they desperately need another solid veteran player. I don't think they can get one with the taxpayer MLE. So they need to trade for one. If they won't put their first round pick(or Nesmith) on the table, I don't think they can get one without opening up another hole elsewhere.
Gotta give something up if you want a decent guy.
What kind of vet can you really get with the 16th pick tho? It is one of their only assets so I get that. It's why this thread exist, as Smart is another.
Nesmith is suddenly now too.
really? every time I watch Holmes he's active and getting better every season.
S&T is probably out of the question anyway since Kemba is sticking and they'll be over the apron
Don't know.
I threw out Larry Nance as a possibility a few posts up.
Someone in that general range.
Without hammering him too badly......he can’t defend a PnR to save his life, is a fouling machine, doesn’t protect the rim at his position, and his awareness/passing ability rivals that of a young JaVale McGee. Aside from that I’m a big fan of this player.
so you don't think he'll get more than the MLE in free agency?Without hammering him too badly......he can’t defend a PnR to save his life, is a fouling machine, doesn’t protect the rim at his position, and his awareness/passing ability rivals that of a young JaVale McGee. Aside from that I’m a big fan of this player.
I think he’ll end up back in Sacramento as they can start him at $11m and the only teams with cap space that I feel would offer him more would be Dallas, bc Cuban loves cutting checks to bigs and he’d be a good fit next to Porzingis, or Charlotte simply bc they have space and don’t need any more guards or wings.
Jay Kings thoughts on Smart as the starting PG
https://theathletic.com/2653998/2021/06/16/maximizing-jayson-tatum-and-jaylen-brown-marcus-smart-at-pg-yam-madars-future-and-more-celtics-mailbag/?source=dailyemail
What’s your opinion on Marcus Smart at PG?
Based on Tatum’s development to date, I think he will continue to serve more and more as the Celtics’ primary facilitator. That means the team won’t necessarily need a high-usage point guard alongside him. Smart sliding over to the position on a more permanent basis could be a solution. He can provide enough playmaking to alleviate some of the burden, but doesn’t need the ball in his hands and can fortify the defense on the other end of the court.
While reading this, you may be thinking, “But what about Kemba Walker?” The Celtics have gone to the Eastern Conference Finals with him at point guard. He provides plenty of offense when healthy. But as Tatum evolves, the perfect fit next to him may not necessarily be a 6-foot volume scorer. The Celtics could surround Tatum with a lot of length and defense if they choose a different route. That decision wouldn’t necessarily need to come this summer, but the Celtics should be thinking about the best ways to maximize Tatum and Brown.
https://theathletic.com/2653998/2021/06/16/maximizing-jayson-tatum-and-jaylen-brown-marcus-smart-at-pg-yam-madars-future-and-more-celtics-mailbag/?source=dailyemail
What’s your opinion on Marcus Smart at PG?
Based on Tatum’s development to date, I think he will continue to serve more and more as the Celtics’ primary facilitator. That means the team won’t necessarily need a high-usage point guard alongside him. Smart sliding over to the position on a more permanent basis could be a solution. He can provide enough playmaking to alleviate some of the burden, but doesn’t need the ball in his hands and can fortify the defense on the other end of the court.
While reading this, you may be thinking, “But what about Kemba Walker?” The Celtics have gone to the Eastern Conference Finals with him at point guard. He provides plenty of offense when healthy. But as Tatum evolves, the perfect fit next to him may not necessarily be a 6-foot volume scorer. The Celtics could surround Tatum with a lot of length and defense if they choose a different route. That decision wouldn’t necessarily need to come this summer, but the Celtics should be thinking about the best ways to maximize Tatum and Brown.