Should running into the catcher be outlawed in MLB?

soxhop411

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As we have seen the past few seasons (Santana and Posey most recent MLB examples) Plays at the plate (or more specifically running/trucking into the catcher) has proven to be a very dangerous play for the baserunner to make, due to the high likelihood of the catcher suffering a serious injury. Earlier this week  Brandon Douglas of Double-A Erie (Tigers) and catcher Brian Jeroloman of Harrisburg (Nationals)  were involved in a play at the plate, and it resulted in Brian Jeroloman eventually being placed on the DL. This play has once again has sparked a debate amoung writters  on if running into the catcher should be outlawed. 
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/eye-on-baseball/23508065
 
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mHfVv_j8cmk&feature=player_embedded[/media]
 

Plympton91

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What do the data say: Do injuries of a catcher in that situation really happen more often than broken ankles or in Ellsbury's case a shoulder subluxation when people slide feet or head first?
 
I could see outlawing it in amateur sports and maybe the minor leagues where development and not winning is supposed to be the main goal. 
 

Bosoxen

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Plympton91 said:
What do the data say: Do injuries of a catcher in that situation really happen more often than broken ankles or in Ellsbury's case a shoulder subluxation when people slide feet or head first?
 
I could see outlawing it in amateur sports and maybe the minor leagues where development and not winning is supposed to be the main goal. 
 
Doesn't that, in a sense, outlaw it from the game without explicitly making it against the rules? If you take that instinct away at the developmental levels, they will be less likely to switch to that mode once they make it to the majors.
 
You might as well just get rid of it altogether, as I would imagine it would be more dangerous for a catcher to come up to the big leagues not used to bracing himself for that impact then all of a sudden find himself staring down the barrel of a collision he is not prepared to handle.
 

Fred not Lynn

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Plympton91 said:
I could see outlawing it in amateur sports and maybe the minor leagues where development and not winning is supposed to be the main goal. 
 
So you're saying it's a skill best learned once you're playing with multi-million dollar contracts? I don't think it's a good idea to have a massive rule difference like that between NLB and MiLB.
 

OttoC

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This is a Note to the Comment to Rule 7.06b:
 
NOTE: The catcher, without the ball in his possession, has no right to block the pathway of
the runner attempting to score. The base line belongs to the runner and the catcher should be there only
when he is fielding a ball or when he already has the ball in his hand.
 
This is something that is laxly called, in my opinion. I know there are some really fine lines here but it is not uncommon for a catcher to set up the block while the relay man is still waiting for/handling the throw.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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I'm with Otto.  Don't outlaw trucking the catcher, outlaw the catcher trying to block the plate without the ball.  That's when a lot of the worst injuries happen, because the catcher has exposed himself to the runner while putting his attention elsewhere (tracking/catching the ball).  I've always thought it was stupid that a catcher can trip the runner so he falls over the plate, then go tag him...how is that not the definition of interference?
 

Homar

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As OttoC noted, it's already against the rules; it just needs to be enforced.  I've often wondered why it's permitted at the plate, but pretty strictly prohibited at the other bases.  If a defender were to do at first what catchers seem routinely to do at the plate, interference would be called and the runner awarded the base.  I don't need baseball to turn into football the last six feet before the plate  I would prefer that the catcher have no rights beyond those of the defenders of the other bases, and plays at home become matters of elusiveness and grace rather than brute strength leading too often to injuries.  
 
Baseball is at its best when the best players are on the field.  Injuries deny us the best baseball possible, meaning that we ought to try to prevent them as often as possible.  Collisions at home are not good for anyone, as the injuries that happen (Manny out six weeks with a broken finger, Posey out half a season with a broken leg, etc.) are almost never worth the prize of a single run, especially when the same rules that govern play at the other bases could be used at the plate, if merely enforced.  
 

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The Douglas/Jeroloman collision is an example of both players doing things that should be against the rules.  The only benefit the catcher sees from standing with his foot on the plate is measured in milli- or even microseconds.  When Douglas places his foot on the plate, however, he's also requiring Jeroloman to initiate contact in order to score.  At the same time, Jeroloman makes no effort to improve his chances of scoring by launching himself at Douglas.  In fact, if Douglas catches the ball cleanly, it's hard for him to miss the tag, since Jeroloman is launching himself right where Douglas his going to be holding his glove.  If he slides feet-first into the plate, Douglas almost certainly can't tag him.  What Jeroloman did wasn't just stupid for being dangerous, it was stupid from the perspective of just trying to score.  In any event, the catcher shouldn't be allowed to force the player to initiate contact the way Douglas did (if Jeroloman slides, the chances of someone breaking an ankle are pretty high) and the runner shouldn't be allowed to launch himself at the catcher.  The latter should result in an automatic out, ejection, and suspension, no exceptions.  It's gratuitously dangerous. 
 
The question of penalizing the catcher is more problematic.  The problem here is that home plate is like first base in that it can be overrun without fear of being thrown out, but most plays at the plate are tag plays, not forces.  If we want to prevent injuries, we need to decide if the runner should have the right to run full speed through the bag--er, plate--if he thinks that's the most effective way of avoiding a tag.  One option would be to say that the runner only has the right to slide into the plate, not run through it.  That might sound like an odd way to play, but if you think about it, overrunning first base is kind of odd, too.  We're just used to it.  If that becomes the case, you'd have more traditional-looking plays at the plate, where the catcher straddles the plate to wait for the ball and the runner slides underneath him.  This might lead to more problems, though, as catchers working with home plate umpires unused to calling interference at the plate would have an incentive to set up further up the third base line and force the runner into a slide early.  I could see a lot of farcical plays as runners were forced into gymnastics to try to reach the plate without hitting the catcher up high.
 
If the runner is going to be allowed to run through the plate, then the catcher needs to be told that standing where a runner will pass at full speed, even if he's already scored, is off-limits.  However, that's going make it harder to apply a tag, as the catcher will have to stand further up toward the mound or behind the plate.  It would lead to a few more runs, because the time it takes to get the ball from a fielder to a place where the catcher's glove can tag the runner, but it wouldn't reduce the total number of exciting plays at the plate, because runners and coaches would go for it more often.  I'd assume most catchers would set up in front of the plate and try to position the glove as close to the path of the baserunner as possible, both to minimize the time before they're ready to apply the tag and the likelihood that the ball hits the runner and bounces away, allowing other runners to advance.  For interference rule purposes, therefore, it would make sense to give the catcher the right to stand anywhere in fair territory, and award the run and an extra base to any other baserunners if the catcher stands in foul territory (where 99.99% of runners attempting to score are coming from varying angles) and impedes the runner in any way.  I tend to prefer this option, because it makes enforcement of the interference rule simpler and less likely to be required.
 
M

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[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j0GESR2YbA[/media]
 
The rules ought to change, because baseball isn't meant to be a violent contact sport with injuries just a "cost of doing business".  There ought to be much bigger penalties on either side.  A runner initiating contact when he has a valid way to go around him or tag the plate without contact should be immediately called out and ejected.  A catcher blocking the plate before he has the ball should be called for interference and, if blatant, possibly ejected.
 
I'd be happy to entertain a rejoinder to that point of view with a highlight reel of Tek's Greatest Hits of blocking the plate... but I really don't think it should be a valid tactic, and there need to be enough incentives to get catchers to abandon it as a tactic.
 

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A minor point of terminology: I think most of the references to interference in this thread should actually be referring to obstruction.  "In the simplest of terms, interference is a ‘penalty’ against the offense, and obstruction is a penalty against the defense."
http://www.fullwindup.com/2011/01/obstruction-vs-interference/
 
Edit: the fact that "catcher's interference" is an exception to this is confusing but irrelevant, since CI refers to having the catcher's mitt in the path of a swung bat.
 

wnyghost

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TheShynessClinic said:
 
Needlessly, too. Had the runner just slid feet first he would have been safe.
 
He was looking for contact there.
 
 
The most amazing part is Douglas's manager said it is was a clean play. 
 
That is a bullshit play.  Up high targeting the head.  It was a kill shot.  He had to cross the plate to make contact.  It is not laying in on the line... it is not the way the game should be played.  A hard slide in to the plate and he is safe by a mile.  This type of collision should definately be reviewed by the league and punished... fine/suspension. It is unacceptable.
 
After all the articles and commentary of player safety in the NFL and NHL it is unbelievable that someone can argue this should be allowed.  Douglas was completely defenseless.  It is the definition of reckless and could have ended a career.   Just a total lack of respect for the safety of the catcher... from the opposing catcher no less.
 
Trucking the catcher has become a common occurance - A highlight... back in the day Fisk would make you eat the ball if you even looked like you were going to attempt to come in standing up. 
 
That said... somewhere along the line the fundamentals of the game have slipped.  Kill shots on the catcher... head first slides in to first base... not knowing how to pitch inside... how to properly round the corner of base... where to throw the ball... it goes on and on.  It is not just from the Manny's of the world with big talent.  Ex: Nava and baserunning, Soriano last night. 
 

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wnyghost said:
The most amazing part is Douglas's manager said it is was a clean play. 
 
That is a bullshit play.  Up high targeting the head.  It was a kill shot.  He had to cross the plate to make contact.  It is not laying in on the line... it is not the way the game should be played.  A hard slide in to the plate and he is safe by a mile.  This type of collision should definately be reviewed by the league and punished... fine/suspension. It is unacceptable.
 
After all the articles and commentary of player safety in the NFL and NHL it is unbelievable that someone can argue this should be allowed.  Douglas was completely defenseless.  It is the definition of reckless and could have ended a career.   Just a total lack of respect for the safety of the catcher... from the opposing catcher no less.
 
Trucking the catcher has become a common occurance - A highlight... back in the day Fisk would make you eat the ball if you even looked like you were going to attempt to come in standing up. 
 
That said... somewhere along the line the fundamentals of the game have slipped.  Kill shots on the catcher... head first slides in to first base... not knowing how to pitch inside... how to properly round the corner of base... where to throw the ball... it goes on and on.  It is not just from the Manny's of the world with big talent.  Ex: Nava and baserunning, Soriano last night.
I completely agree with all of this. If you advance that video slowly just before the point of contact you can see the runner leading with his helmet , launching himself at the catcher. Just a complete bullshit play .. Shades of Pete Rose indeed.

One minor quibble .. Fisk always blocked the plate in his first few years in the league .. Precipitating some of those epic encounters with Therman Munson and his evil cohort. But IIRC he stopped after getting seriously hurt in one of those collisions .. Opting for a sweep tag instead.?
 

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Plympton91 said:
What do the data say: Do injuries of a catcher in that situation really happen more often than broken ankles or in Ellsbury's case a shoulder subluxation when people slide feet or head first?
 
I could see outlawing it in amateur sports and maybe the minor leagues where development and not winning is supposed to be the main goal. 
 
In amateur for-fun leagues, running into the catcher (or taking out the middle infielder on a DP) is against the rules and strictly enforced by the umps. Does any know if it is against the rules today in Little League, Babe Ruth, Pony League etc.? Back it the day ramming the catcher was perfectly legal at all those levels.
 
EDIT: Although it is outlawed in a lot of amateur ball, it'd be a tough thing to enforce in MLB and other leagues where the main goal is winning and not development or fun. How much contact would be too much contact? Outlawing running into the catcher would leave umpires with even more discretion than they have on, say, whether the lead runner on a GIDP should be called out.     
 

OttoC

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wnyghost said:
...
That said... somewhere along the line the fundamentals of the game have slipped.  Kill shots on the catcher... head first slides in to first base... not knowing how to pitch inside... how to properly round the corner of base... where to throw the ball... it goes on and on.  It is not just from the Manny's of the world with big talent.  Ex: Nava and baserunning, Soriano last night. 
 
Where to throw the ball. I have been annoyed this year by Red Sox players making impossible throws home that subsequently allow the batter to take an extra base. While I don't have play-by-play for this season in a database, I did look at plays where hitters took second after singling when a runner scored from second with no errors recorded in the 2011 and 2012 seasons. I found that it happened 524 times, which would be an average of 17.466 per team. The Red Sox did it 9 times at Fenway and 4 times on the road. At home, the hit was fielded by LF, 4 times, CF, 2 times, RF, 3 times. On the road, the RF fielded 3 of the hits and the LF, the other.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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Jordu said:
 
In amateur for-fun leagues, running into the catcher (or taking out the middle infielder on a DP) is against the rules and strictly enforced by the umps. Does any know if it is against the rules today in Little League, Babe Ruth, Pony League etc.? Back it the day ramming the catcher was perfectly legal at all those levels.
 
EDIT: Although it is outlawed in a lot of amateur ball, it'd be a tough thing to enforce in MLB and other leagues where the main goal is winning and not development or fun. How much contact would be too much contact? Outlawing running into the catcher would leave umpires with even more discretion than they have on, say, whether the lead runner on a GIDP should be called out.     
 
It wasn't allowed in high school ball when I was playing in the mid-90's.  One kid did it somewhat instinctively and was tossed from the game and suspended for the next.
 
As long as the catcher is permitted (not by the rules, but by the umpires) to block the plate, I'd truck them every time.  I'm not going to risk a broken ankle or hand by sliding extremity-first into an armored post (aka catcher leg with shin guards on it).  Even if they're not truly blocking the plate, if it's possible he might get into position to do so, I wouldn't risk it.
 
It really falls on the league and the umpires to enforce the rule and disallow any blocking of the plate.  Then, and only then, can you make trucking illegal.
 

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The problem I see is that the ball is often arriving at about the same time as the runner,  so you often end up with a case where either the catcher is obstructing the plate or the runner is obstructing the ball.  One possibility would be to make a lane from the third base line to the plate. Say the catcher has to stay outside the lane and runner has to stay in it.  That way there is no need to run into the catcher, but it isn't easy for runners to avoid the tag either.
 

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BucketOBalls said:
The problem I see is that the ball is often arriving at about the same time as the runner,  so you often end up with a case where either the catcher is obstructing the plate or the runner is obstructing the ball.  One possibility would be to make a lane from the third base line to the plate. Say the catcher has to stay outside the lane and runner has to stay in it.  That way there is no need to run into the catcher, but it isn't easy for runners to avoid the tag either.
 
The trouble with that proposal is that the baserunner always sets up in foul territory (because if he's hit by a batted ball in failr territory, he's out). Home plate is entirely within fair territory. (The lane to first base has a related problem, since the entire bag is in fair territory).
 

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These both get into the problem I was talking about above. I think the more complex you make it, the more likely you are to have umps say Fuck It and let anything go. Maybe the solution is that fair territory except for the plate belongs to the catcher on tag plays, and foul territory belongs to the runner until the catcher has the ball in hand and is applying a tag. That gives the runner enough leeway to create his own baseline, which is consistent with the game's norms, while giving the catcher a chance to make a play.
 

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I think DLew's fair/foul territory plan is simple and elegant - I nominate his big ol' melon to chair the MLB rules committee.
 
As for what's allowed in Little League - I do not know if this is a LL International Rule or not (I think it is but would have to look it up), but I know in the league I coach in - a runner is instructed to slide if there is a play at the plate.  If you come in standing up - you're out and can be ejected. 
 

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DLew On Roids said:
The Douglas/Jeroloman collision is an example of both players doing things that should be against the rules.  The only benefit the catcher sees from standing with his foot on the plate is measured in milli- or even microseconds.  When Douglas places his foot on the plate, however, he's also requiring Jeroloman to initiate contact in order to score. 
 
The thing is, though, that the only kind of contact that Douglas was "required" to initiate in order to score would have been simply sliding into Jeroloman's foot (I think you have the names backwards, BTW). The contact he made was not required.
 
I think this discussion has already shown that rules which both protect players adequately and also allow genuine competitive effort around plays at the plate are damn hard to come up with. Your fair/foul plan would help (though if umpires called it as rarely as they do the first base running lane violations, it wouldn't help much). Short of that, I dunno. You already have a rule that catchers aren't allowed to obstruct the base path without the ball in their possession. This rule, too, is rarely enforced, and enforcing it would be a good start. But that rule wouldn't have helped in this instance, because Jeroloman wasn't obstructing; his foot was on the bag.
 
Certainly MLB could encourage umpires to eject players under the unsportsmanlike conduct clause for plays where an obvious excess of force is used. But that's a judgment call, and I think the natural dynamics of the game will tend to make such calls rare even if MLB makes a strong push to make them more often.
 
Basically, people suck.
 

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
The thing is, though, that the only kind of contact that Douglas was "required" to initiate in order to score would have been simply sliding into Jeroloman's foot (I think you have the names backwards, BTW). The contact he made was not required.
 
 
 
I agree with your judgment about what was required.  However, this judgment is from the perspective of an observer rather than a participant.  The runner does not have that perspective.  All he sees is the catcher setting up a block and he has to make a split second determination about whether he should try to score by avoiding/going under the tag or by initiating violent contact with the catcher to make sure he doesn't retain possession of the ball.
 
What I think we all react to in situations like this is the sheer violence associated with a play like this.  It feels fundamentally unjust for the rules to allow such a hit on a player who is not braced, and because we have the benefit of seeing the play develop it all seems gratuitous.  The problem is that the competitive nature of professional athletes is such that once a player makes the decision to initiate contact, he is going to do his damnedest to make sure that ball comes out. And this turns the issue of what is required on its head, because once that switch is thrown, what is required is maximum effort and nothing less.
 
Regulating the competitive nature of professional athletes is (IMO) a fool's errand. If you want to do away with these types of hits you have to ban the catcher from blocking the plate. 
 
Unfortunately, this sort of play has such a long a celebrated history in the game that I don't think that baseball would be wiling to ban it. But I think any measure short of an outright ban on blocking the plate will be ineffective.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Here's one more idea that might help reduce the number of collisions--I'm sure it's deeply flawed, since I don't recall hearing it suggested before, and I'm not that smart. But here goes:
 
Why do runners initiate these violent collisions? To dislodge the ball. What happens if you change the rules so that dislodging the ball doesn't help you? Specify that if the catcher is touching the ball at the moment contact is initiated, and the runner has not yet touched the plate at that point, then the runner is out on contact, regardless of what happens to the ball after that. No judgment calls about "possession". If the ball and the catcher are in contact at the moment the runner makes contact with the catcher, then the runner is out.
 
I'm sure there are problems with this, but what are they?
 

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Savin Hillbilly said:
Here's one more idea that might help reduce the number of collisions--I'm sure it's deeply flawed, since I don't recall hearing it suggested before, and I'm not that smart. But here goes:
 
Why do runners initiate these violent collisions? To dislodge the ball. What happens if you change the rules so that dislodging the ball doesn't help you? Specify that if the catcher is touching the ball at the moment contact is initiated, and the runner has not yet touched the plate at that point, then the runner is out on contact, regardless of what happens to the ball after that. No judgment calls about "possession". If the ball and the catcher are in contact at the moment the runner makes contact with the catcher, then the runner is out.
 
I'm sure there are problems with this, but what are they?
 
You have effectively turned the play into a force out at home - and , even worse, one where the catcher doesn't even have to catch the ball.
 

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Actually the solution is pretty simple .. just don't let your catcher block the plate. The number of runs that could possibly saved has to pale in comparison to those lost if your starting catcher goes down for an extended period.
 
I mentioned up-thread that Fisk did this in the latter portion of his career - and for that reason .. the injury risk is too great.
 

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BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
 
You have effectively turned the play into a force out at home - and , even worse, one where the catcher doesn't even have to catch the ball.
 
Huh? I specifically said that the catcher has to be touching the ball at the moment of contact, and also that he has to be touching the runner. So it's not a force out, and he does have to catch the ball, at least in the sense of having some kind of provisional possession of it. You could even word the rule so that the catcher has to be in definite possession of the ball before contact if you want--that makes the umpire's job harder, but it doesn't really change the main point, which is to render the effect of the collision on the catcher's possession of the ball irrelevant.
 
BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
Actually the solution is pretty simple .. just don't let your catcher block the plate. The number of runs that could possibly saved has to pale in comparison to those lost if your starting catcher goes down for an extended period.
 
I mentioned up-thread that Fisk did this in the latter portion of his career - and for that reason .. the injury risk is too great.
 
Except that the catcher was not blocking the plate, in the sense of standing between the runner and the plate, in either of the collisions that are video-linked upthread. The runner didn't initiate the collision because the catcher was in the way; he wasn't. The runner initiated the collision in the hope of inducing the catcher to drop the ball.
 

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
The thing is, though, that the only kind of contact that Douglas was "required" to initiate in order to score would have been simply sliding into Jeroloman's foot (I think you have the names backwards, BTW). The contact he made was not required.
 
I agree on both counts, but sliding into the catcher's foot is a recipe for someone to break an ankle if the runner is coming with any speed.  Plus, I can't understand why the catcher should want to put his foot on the plate; it's actually a really hard surface to plant on when you're wearing spikes.  The only thing I can come up with is that some catchers would use it as a reference point for where to place the tag, but even then a catcher should be able to use a corner of the plate, the same way a 1B uses a corner of the bag on a force play.
 

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BCsMightyJoeYoung said:
 
You have effectively turned the play into a force out at home - and , even worse, one where the catcher doesn't even have to catch the ball.
I think a better version would be to say that if the catcher tags the runner with a ball held in hand or glove and in the umpire's judgment, intentional contact by the batter was the reason why the ball came out, the batter is out.  This disincentivizes hard contact with a catcher to dislodge a ball, while encouraging a slide to avoid a tag (not much help if the catcher is blocking the plate, but if he has control of the ball and is blocking the plate, the runner should be put out if he does not retreat to third).  
 
The flaw is that it still does not deal with contact as the catcher is receiving a throw, which if anything involves an even higher risk of injury; the catcher is pretty similar to a defenseless WR in football at that moment.  The fair/foul territory rule discussed above could help here - contact with a catcher in fair territory = out, contact with catcher in foul territory who doesn't have the ball = automatic safe/run deemed to have scored?
 

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
Except that the catcher was not blocking the plate, in the sense of standing between the runner and the plate, in either of the collisions that are video-linked upthread. The runner didn't initiate the collision because the catcher was in the way; he wasn't. The runner initiated the collision in the hope of inducing the catcher to drop the ball.
 
He absolutely is in the way.
 
The catcher has firmly planted his foot in front of the plate and is preparing to shift his entire weight over the second he receives the ball.  (You can clearly see that he's in the middle of shifting his weight when he gets hit.) So while he's not blocking the plate (yet) in the traditional fashion, he is obstructing the path to the plate before he receives the ball.
 
I understand that you see the collision as being a deliberate act on the part of the runner and so this is where you want to make a change.  But the situation is not static - when a runner sees that foot planted in front of the plate they know the catcher is setting up to block the plate.  Remove the catcher's ability to do that (or enforce the rule against impeding the runner before the ball arrives, which this catcher is clearly doing) and you take away the runner's incentive to blow up the catcher.
 

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Average Reds said:
He absolutely is in the way.
 
The catcher has firmly planted his foot in front of the plate
 
He's planted his foot at the very front-left corner of it. The runner has all the room in the world to aim for the catcher's side of the plate, and has at least an outside chance of scoring with a good evasive slide. (In fact, you can see that in the split-second before collision, as the catcher starts to transfer his weight to make the tag, he actually steps a tiny bit further *off* the plate, leaving more room if anything for the runner.)
 
and is preparing to shift his entire weight over the second he receives the ball.
Yes, but the rules allow him to do that once he receives the ball, so enforcing the rules would do nothing to protect him at that point.
 
So while he's not blocking the plate (yet) in the traditional fashion, he is obstructing the path to the plate before he receives the ball.
Again, he just isn't. The runner has plenty of room to avoid him if he wants to, and this in fact is his only hope of scoring unless he dislodges the ball. So my suggested rule change would incentivize him to try the evasive slide instead of the collision.
 
 

Average Reds

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Your comments are not incorrect in isolation, but again, they ignore the larger context of what actually happened.
 
The catcher is not setting his foot at the corner of the plate for a sweep tag, he's setting up to catch the ball and shift his entire weight in front of the plate.  So what you see as "all the room in the world" is, in fact, properly understood by the runner as a prelude to a block of the entire plate. So the runner still has to decide if he's going to beat the throw or not.  And if he's not sure, he's going to take out the catcher to dislodge the ball.
 
The fact that the throw came to him too late to allow him to execute the block is irrelevant.  What is relevant is that the runner had a reasonable expectation that this is what he was going to do. 
 
If the catcher can't block the plate there is no decision - the runner slides for the outside of the plate every single time.  But if the runner believes that the catcher will block the plate, he risks serious injury if he tries for the outside of the plate and the catcher comes over and bears down on him with his full weight after he catches the ball.
 
If you want to get rid of these horrible collisions, make both blocking the plate and intentional contact with the catcher illegal.  But if you're not prepared to do that, you'll never see the rule change as a practical matter.
 

Average Reds

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Savin Hillbilly said:
Right. So change the rules so that dislodging the ball won't help him, and then he won't do that, unless he's a sociopath. Remove the perverse incentive.
 
 
Unless I misunderstand you, the only change you are proposing is that dislodging the ball never helps the runner.
 
If this is true, then you have given catchers a perverse incentive to become even more physical in their attempt to stop the runner from reaching the plate.  They can initiate all the contact they want and they don't have to worry about maintaining control of the ball.  So collisions won't become less violent - they just shift from the catcher taking the brunt of them to the runner suffering the injuries.
 
The current state exists because catchers are allowed to block the plate and runners are allowed to fight for it.  If you want to change that dynamic you've got to change the entire context for the play, not one element.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Average Reds said:
 
 
Unless I misunderstand you, the only change you are proposing is that dislodging the ball never helps the runner.
 
If this is true, then you have given catchers a perverse incentive to become even more physical in their attempt to stop the runner from reaching the plate.  They can initiate all the contact they want and they don't have to worry about maintaining control of the ball.  So collisions won't become less violent - they just shift from the catcher taking the brunt of them to the runner suffering the injuries.
 
But this argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny, because it assumes that the incentive to initiate hard contact is roughly similar and equal between catcher and runner. It isn't. There is no payoff for the catcher in making hard contact equivalent to the dislodging-the-ball incentive for the runner. As long as the tag is emphatic enough that there's no danger of the umpire missing it, there is no further benefit to the catcher in making harder contact on the play. Indeed, there is a risk with no benefit, because catchers can still get hurt on contact they initiate (as runners often do).
 
Speaking of which, it's hard to see how catchers *can* initiate hard contact of the kind we're talking about--it's really dependent on the runner's initiative. All the catcher can do is get in the way. If the runner responds to this by trying to evade the tag, instead of running full tilt into the catcher, then there's still the possibility of the kind of injuries that accompany slides, which are inherent to the game, but the kinds of potentially career-threatening injuries that result from these full-tilt collisions will be greatly reduced, if not disappear entirely.
 
M

MentalDisabldLst

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I think one very simple question here can help illuminate: Why, exactly, are plays at the plate any different from plays at any other base?
 
Yes, you score if you get there, so motivations are a little higher, but I'm talking about how the plays develop.  At any other base, when you have a tag play rather than a force play, the fielder leans over and tries to tag the guy before he can slide in.  The runner, however, almost always slides in (both to prevent injury as well as because it's a little faster).  The runner NEVER tries to dislodge the ball from the fielder's glove by force, and we all remember the very rare exceptions.  The fielder doesn't try to impede the runner's progress, he tries to get in a position so he can field a good throw and quickly apply the tag without getting mauled by the sliding fielder.  Sometimes they make a side step and go around the runner and tag him from the top or side as he's going in.
 
Basically, the whole mechanics of the play are safer.  So why on plays at home are runners trying to, not just get to the plate, but destroy the catcher if necessary to get there?  Why is it so much different than tag plays at 2nd or 3rd?
 

Average Reds

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MentalDisabldLst said:
I think one very simple question here can help illuminate: Why, exactly, are plays at the plate any different from plays at any other base?
 
Yes, you score if you get there, so motivations are a little higher, but I'm talking about how the plays develop.  At any other base, when you have a tag play rather than a force play, the fielder leans over and tries to tag the guy before he can slide in.  The runner, however, almost always slides in (both to prevent injury as well as because it's a little faster).  The runner NEVER tries to dislodge the ball from the fielder's glove by force, and we all remember the very rare exceptions.  The fielder doesn't try to impede the runner's progress, he tries to get in a position so he can field a good throw and quickly apply the tag without getting mauled by the sliding fielder.  Sometimes they make a side step and go around the runner and tag him from the top or side as he's going in.
 
Basically, the whole mechanics of the play are safer.  So why on plays at home are runners trying to, not just get to the plate, but destroy the catcher if necessary to get there?  Why is it so much different than tag plays at 2nd or 3rd?
 
There is a bit more nuance to it than this:  runners are allowed to go after fielders who are in the basepaths. You don't see it a lot in the modern game, but it used to be common and the rules allow it.  (Note:  the picture you linked to doesn't really apply, as I don't believe they are allowed to swat the ball with their hand like A-Rod did, even for plays at the plate.)
 
Think back a few years and we saw an example of this at Fenway Park.  The game is Sox-Yankees and the runner on first is Mike Lowell.  There's a slow ground ball to Cano, who tried to tag Lowell and throw to first.  But Lowell waits for him and right as Cano gets there he lowers his shoulder and simply unloads on Cano, sending him flying.  Yankee fans were outraged, but that play was 100% within the rules, as the runner has an absolute right to the basepath.  (And I loved the fact that after the game, Lowell - who came up with NY - responded to an angry question from a sportswriter by saying "That's the way the Yankees taught me to play the game.")
 
Here's another example that has disappeared from the modern game.  Batters used to defend themselves against pitchers who threw at them by bunting down the first base line and running over the pitcher as he fielded the ball.  That play was incredibly common in the history of baseball and I believe that its still allowed by the rules but you just never see it  - probably because pitchers have wised up and no longer field a ball if they think they are going to get blown up.
 
The other way you see it at other bases is that runners going into second are allowed to take out the fielder to break up double plays.  And the philosophy there is the same - the runner has an absolute right to the basepath and/or access to the base, so the fielder blocks that access at his peril.
 
You are correct that you do not see these collisions on routine tag plays at any base other than home. You are also correct in saying that this is because fielders at these bases do not block complete access to the base itself.  The reason they do not block it is because they are not intentionally allowed to do so.
 
Apply this rule to plays at the plate and the violent collisions become a memory.
 

Kevin Youkulele

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Re the discussion of why collisions at home are much more common than elsewhere:
 
At 2nd or 3rd, the runner cannot maintain full momentum because he wants to avoid overrunning the base; sliding is the best way to get to the base as quickly as possible without going past it.  First base can be overrun but it is nearly always a force play (the Slappy play excepted); with a force play, the fielder just needs to catch the ball, touch the base, and then can get out of the way.  And catchers tend to be bulkier players and wear armor.  So you have three aspects about plays at the plate that combine to make them different:
 
- Runner does not need to decelerate/overrunning is OK
- Generally a tag play
- Defender is armored and relatively bulky
 
The first two are essentially required to make dislodging the ball worthwhile, and the third helps in that the catcher may be more willing to block the plate.
 
I think the following rule would never be enacted, but if you required a runner to "occupy" home plate for a sustained short period (a second? two?) before the run counted it might reduce the number of collisions in that the runner could still be tagged out if he overran the plate, so going in with full momentum would be counterproductive in many instances (if the catcher sees the guy barreling down, get out of the way, let him go past the plate, then tag him when he tries to come back).
 

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MentalDisabldLst said:
I think one very simple question here can help illuminate: Why, exactly, are plays at the plate any different from plays at any other base?
 
Yes, you score if you get there, so motivations are a little higher, but I'm talking about how the plays develop.  At any other base, when you have a tag play rather than a force play, the fielder leans over and tries to tag the guy before he can slide in.  The runner, however, almost always slides in (both to prevent injury as well as because it's a little faster).  
 
Not always.
 
Jason Bartlett blocked 2nd base with his leg when Coco Crisp tried to slide headfirst into it on a steal attempt. That unleashed a multi-game snitstorm that led to Crisp taking out Iwmura, James Shields drilling Crisp, Crisp charging the mound, Jonny Gomes becoming one of my least favorite people of 2008, and many multi-game suspensions.
 

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Kevin Youkulele said:
Re the discussion of why collisions at home are much more common than elsewhere:
 
At 2nd or 3rd, the runner cannot maintain full momentum because he wants to avoid overrunning the base; sliding is the best way to get to the base as quickly as possible without going past it.  First base can be overrun but it is nearly always a force play (the Slappy play excepted); with a force play, the fielder just needs to catch the ball, touch the base, and then can get out of the way....
 
However, players going into second, especially, frequently go far out of their way to interfere with the pivot man on double play opportunities, even after they have already been put out. They feel that as long as they can touch the base with a finger of an outstretched arm it is fine if their feet end up eight feet out in left field. While this is not the same as motoring into the catcher, upsetting a player trying to make a throw on the pivot can lead to injury.
 

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OttoC said:
 
However, players going into second, especially, frequently go far out of their way to interfere with the pivot man on double play opportunities, even after they have already been put out. They feel that as long as they can touch the base with a finger of an outstretched arm it is fine if their feet end up eight feet out in left field. While this is not the same as motoring into the catcher, upsetting a player trying to make a throw on the pivot can lead to injury.
But the frequency with which a take-out slide at second results in forceful contact is much lower than the frequency with which an attempt to truck a catcher results in forceful contact.  The need to tag is the main reason.
 
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Average Reds said:
You are correct that you do not see these collisions on routine tag plays at any base other than home. You are also correct in saying that this is because fielders at these bases do not block complete access to the base itself.  The reason they do not block it is because they are not intentionally allowed to do so.
 
Apply this rule to plays at the plate and the violent collisions become a memory.
 
I assume you meant to phrase the bolded as, "they are not allowed to intentionally do so", which I'd agree with, but I don't think it completely answers the question.  When's the last time you saw a runner going to 2nd or 3rd decide that, instead of merely trying to beat the throw, they rather run AT the fielder who is now trying to apply a tag and try to knock the ball out of his glove through the sheer force of the collision?  Because none of the examples you listed happen anywhere near as frequently - it's not a "routine" play to blow up the pitcher on a bunt down the 1B line (and the pitcher has time to brace themselves, frankly), or blow up a tagger in between the bases (more common is someone stopping running and surrendering, sometimes to buy a runner time to get to the plate and score).  Breaking up double plays is done through a slide, the 2B/SS knows to jump and isn't going to get charged and tackled to have the ball removed from their glove.  Only the catcher is made to play the role of Joe Theismann to the runner's Lawrence Taylor.
 
I think that's a matter of coaching (kids / amateurs coached that the catcher is someone you can and should barrel into if you have to, and also coaching catchers that if they're waiting for a ball to arrive, they should block the plate) as well as umpire enforcement.  Maybe it can be a point of emphasis in future years.
 

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MentalDisabldLst said:
At any other base, when you have a tag play rather than a force play, the fielder leans over and tries to tag the guy before he can slide in.  The runner, however, almost always slides in (both to prevent injury as well as because it's a little faster).
Huh?  I thought it was well-accepted that sliding is slower than running in (hence all the ridicule for guys who dive into first); the reasons to do it are to avoid tags and because it's the fastest way to stop on a base that you're not allowed to overrun.
 

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SumnerH said:
Huh?  I thought it was well-accepted that sliding is slower than running in (hence all the ridicule for guys who dive into first); the reasons to do it are to avoid tags and because it's the fastest way to stop on a base that you're not allowed to overrun.
I agree with you and have never seen anything convincing to the contrary.  It's also logical that sliding is slower than running through the base because you lose speed due to friction while sliding and you are not actively propelling yourself, whereas each footfall provides forward impulse while running.
 
Edit: sliding is faster than coming in standing and stopping on the base though.  When coming to a standing stop, you have to start slowing down earlier than you do with a slide.  This is perhaps what OttoC meant.
 

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If you slided into the pivot man at about the same time he is tagging the base and starting his throw that is one thing because you are entitle to the base, but when you slide completely beyond the base and/or way off to a side of it to take the fielder out of the play. I don't think that should be allowed. You get called out for leaving the base path to avoid a tag. Why shouldn't you be called out for leaving the base path to try and take out the pivot man?
 
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SumnerH said:
Huh?  I thought it was well-accepted that sliding is slower than running in (hence all the ridicule for guys who dive into first); the reasons to do it are to avoid tags and because it's the fastest way to stop on a base that you're not allowed to overrun.
 
That's what I meant, phrased it poorly.  Talisker is a factor.
 

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Average Reds said:
 
You are correct that you do not see these collisions on routine tag plays at any base other than home. You are also correct in saying that this is because fielders at these bases do not block complete access to the base itself.  The reason they do not block it is because they are not intentionally allowed to do so.
 
Apply this rule to plays at the plate and the violent collisions become a memory.
 
Any fielder is allowed to block the basepath if he has the ball or is about to catch a thrown ball. This is no different at home than anywhere else.
 
Again, applying the obstruction rule would not have changed the play that started this thread one iota, because the catcher was not guilty of obstruction.
 

Rice4HOF

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As for what's allowed in Little League - I do not know if this is a LL International Rule or not (I think it is but would have to look it up), but I know in the league I coach in - a runner is instructed to slide if there is a play at the plate. If you come in standing up - you're out and can be ejected.

Not picking on you, because this is one of the most misunderstood rules in all of Little League, but not only is that not a LL international rule, but it's not a rule in your league either. The coaches, players and even umpires may believe it is, but it isn't and your league does bot have the authority to create that rule.

Here is an excerpt from a LL ump course:
7.08 -- Any runner is out when -
(3) the runner does not slide or attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make the tag;

Casebook -- Comment: There is “no“ must slide rule. The rule is slide or attempt to get around. The key in this situation is “fielder has the ball and is waiting to make the tag.”

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:
⇒ Hurdling or going over the defensive player that has the ball and is waiting to make a tag is a legal maneuver. Rule 7.08(a) (3) does not prevent or make hurdling illegal.
⇒ Rule 7.08(a-3) is easily the most misunderstood rule in the book. It is easily broken down as follows:
(1) The fielder must have the ball in his/her possession; AND
(2) The fielder must be WAITING to make the tag;
If BOTH of those two criteria are satisfied, then the runner must EITHER:
(1) Slide; OR
(2) ATTEMPT to get around the fielder.
⇒ Notice that the rule says, “attempt to get around”, not “avoid”. Contact may occur with no penalty assessed.

⇒ There is no “Must Slide” rule and no league may create one. No league may modify Rule 7.08(a-3).
 

Cumberland Blues

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Thanks Rice4HOF  I'll have to make sure to bring this up at the preseason meetings next year - as it's been called as I describe in our league for years.  Not a big deal on the local level, but it's bound to create confusion for any tournament teams if umps from other places are calling it right.
 

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 I tend to balk at comparing amateur athletics and professional but this seems apt. I played catcher all through little league to high school. I started getting "blown up" in my second year of little league. My coach (along with every other coach I had along the way) taught me blocking the plate waiting for the ball was simply how it was done. They also taught us to do our best Bernard Pollard impersonation on any catcher blocking the plate. I got several injuries from getting run over at the plate including a broken wrist, a concussion and multiple sprains of my knees and ankles. No one expected anything different. I eventually learned when to block the plate and when not to and by my sophomore year was no longer getting blown up, but doing a fair share of unloading on base runners trying to score. In retrospect I think the game would be much better off if this sort of thing was not only not happening, but wasn't explicitly taught from the age of 12.