Shams: Celtics "engaged in conversations" with 76ers for Ben Simmons

Eddie Jurak

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A contender, a win-now team. Horford looks great and his style of play is probably good for a few more seasons
In a vacuum yes. But how many win-now teams can 1) add Horford's contract and 2) part with some assets that Philly would want. I'm not convinced that there is such a team.
 

snowmanny

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Celtics fans:

* Screams and throws things at TV when Smart launches a 3-pointer.

* Also Celtic fan, refusing to trade for Simmons bc he won’t shoot three’s.
I am quite sure that if Simmons was on the Celtics I would not want him shooting threes.
 

Strike4

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Having seen the adjustments the team has made after a bad start, I see less benefit to trading for Simmons than I might have before the season. If Ime can continue to grow and make the right moves then some of the team's needs might be better addressed at the trade deadline (like 3 point shooting).
 

lexrageorge

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The fact that this was made public means it had no chance of happening. Morey may yet succeed in driving the price up for Simmons, however. Still don’t see how a Simmons trade happens before 12/15.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Honestly though... if I could get Beal for Smart+++ I'd just play Beal at PG and keep Jaylen.
The three of them together wouldn’t be pretty with them all needing the ball to be effective. I like Ben so much more with the two of them on the offensive end and obv a ton better than Jaylen on the defensive.

I honestly don’t know why people are so fascinated by Simmons not shooting from the perimeter when he uses this to his advantage the way most (don’t) defend him which allows him to easily get to the rim. People are confusing non-shooter with non-scorer. Simmons is lethal finishing off the dribble.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I am quite sure that if Simmons was on the Celtics I would not want him shooting threes.
Neither would I yet I continue hearing people wanting him to work on being a three-point shooter. It doesn’t make sense to me. Sure, he’d be a Top-3 player who would be unattainable if he did……instead of a Top 20-30 guy we can get at a potential discount.
 

Fishy1

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I like Ben Simmons, but there's no universe in which I would call him lethal. The guy averaged 14 points a game last year.

I think Jaylen and Jayson's "issues" sharing the floor together can be solved: specifically by Tatum continuing to grow as a passer, which he's shown flashes of this season. This board has been extremely impatient with the Celtics' start. There's been a lot of close games, and this team could just as easily be 6-4 as 4-6.

I think bringing in Simmons for Jaylen would hardly make this team more competitive. Trading Jaylen for him would be silly, especially given Simmons' status as a distressed asset. Jaylen has his warts, but he's a tremendous scorer. He gets easy buckets for a team that desperately needs them.
 

Cellar-Door

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The three of them together wouldn’t be pretty with them all needing the ball to be effective. I like Ben so much more with the two of them on the offensive end and obv a ton better than Jaylen on the defensive.
I don't agree on this, Beal is a much better off-ball player than Simmons. I like Simmons, but Beal/Jaylen/Tatum are all shooters, and all drivers. Beal is a good passer, Tatum is getting there, and Beal's D has improved. That's a core of 3 stars who can play on both ends and each score at 3 levels, that's about Ideal as a core.

I think you could argue that Simmons needs the ball to be effective far more than any of those 3, in the sense that he can't catch and shoot. He's a great passer and defender, and he'd be a big upgrade on the Smart situation, but in terms of versus similar level stars (or higher) I'd rather have someone like Brown who is more versatile.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Smart++ is the piece of your scenario that doesn't seem realistic. There are a bunch of contending teams who offer Beal an attractive landing spot and have better assets than Boston has ex-Brown. Now if Stevens can acquire picks maybe you can cobble something together but it seems unlikely.
If Beal makes it clear that he will only sign an extension in Boston then teams will not offer much for a 30-game rental. Of course, we have no evidence that Beal is shaving any problems with the Wizard FO that would lead to this but if he and JT are working on something you never know what Beal really wants.
 

Ed Hillel

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I think Simmons is probably a much better fit with Tatum tbh. If the Sixers gave some other stuff back, I wouldn't hate it. This team needs a kick in the ass.
 

Kliq

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The Celtics will not be a good team if Tatum shoots 39% from the field for the season. Any moves that are made/suggested during this time period of unsustainably bad shooting from our best player would be unwise.
 

HowBoutDemSox

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I like Ben Simmons, but there's no universe in which I would call him lethal. The guy averaged 14 points a game last year.
And he scores even fewer in the playoffs, where he averaged 11.9 points per game last year. We’ve all seen how Stevens had defenders sags off him, clogging the lane to make it harder for everyone else when Simmons gets the ball at the perimeter. He’s a great regular season player but can you rely on him in the postseason?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If Beal makes it clear that he will only sign an extension in Boston then teams will not offer much for a 30-game rental. Of course, we have no evidence that Beal is shaving any problems with the Wizard FO that would lead to this but if he and JT are working on something you never know what Beal really wants.
I understand the well worn narrative that he and Tatum are BFFs etc but again, there are other teams with post-season aspirations who may be able offer much more than Boston in a post-Jaylen scenario. Maybe its Tatum or bust for Beal but as @PedroKsBambino notes, we have no indication that this is the case.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I understand the well worn narrative that he and Tatum are BFFs etc but again, there are other teams with post-season aspirations who may be able offer much more than Boston in a post-Jaylen scenario. Maybe its Tatum or bust for Beal but as @PedroKsBambino notes, we have no indication that this is the case.
We do have “some” indication that it is a possibility and what Tatum wants but I agree we don’t know anything. Sure, other teams will want him but if they know it’s for a 30-game rental they won’t be offering much more than a draft pick and a piece that they don’t value. If they felt Beal would sign long-term with them that is a different story and one where Brad would know the answer to prior to any deal.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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We do have “some” indication that it is a possibility and what Tatum wants but I agree we don’t know anything. Sure, other teams will want him but if they know it’s for a 30-game rental they won’t be offering much more than a draft pick and a piece that they don’t value. If they felt Beal would sign long-term with them that is a different story and one where Brad would know the answer to prior to any deal.
What is this "some" you are referring to? Link please or elaborate.
 

GB5

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I think there next to no chance this deal happens. Too complex, but for the sake of message board discussions, here are my thoughts. Simmons is a really really good player. He is top of the scale in really everything except shooting, which certainly is tremendously important. He needs out of Philly. Its not going to work there. However, I think he needs to go to a non pressure cooker. Boston is a bad spot for a guy who might need to fail quietly as he builds himself back up . I saw Minnesota was hot for him and I thought that is the perfect type of landing spot. You also have the problem that one of these teams in the Celtics and Philly trade is going to end up with egg on their face. Best if its not a conference long time rival that you are going to have to play multiple times per season.

Simmons on his tour back to recovery needs an experienced coach who knows how to use him, and not put him in spots where his glaring weakness is going to be front and center. I know he just hit a milestone, but I have been preaching for years that Doc is a terrible coach. He gets by on personality, but he stinks in game day coaching. In the same regard at this point, Ime is not ready for the circus that comes with Simmons. He has had three post game media sessions that may or may not have been too revealing(nuking the team for effort after second game of season, questions Jaylen's focus as he was a few days removed from COVID, and pointing the finger at Marcus after that brutal sequence...out of a timeout..when you every chance in the world to make clear what you wanted). I am not even certain he is ready to be an NBA head coach, let alone tasked with keeping his emotions in check when Simmons is passing up layups in tight games.

I am nearing a no return point with Marcus. I believe the contract they gave him was to make him a nice trade chip. Who knows where they are in 2 plus months when he is trade eligible, but right now, I would have no problem moving him. For those that say it will be tough losing him because of his defense...Simmons is a better defender than him. I have no idea if Jaylen and Tatum get along, but they both need the ball and are both wing players. I would guess that Simmons would work better with Tatum. however if you are committed to trading Jaylen, I think you may want to shop around to see if you can find a non distressed asset.

If it had to happen, my guess is something like Simmons/Thybulle or Simmons/Maxey for Smart/Timelord/Nesmith and 2 forst round picks. I would love Curry in the deal but I think its too much. Timelord also doesnt fit playing alongside Embiid, so my guess is a third team would be needed, with more bodies in play including Horford, Schroeder, Romeo, Kanter(is he still alive) and Richardson.
 

pdub

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I'm not a fan of Simmons' antics but I do think his skillset would complement the team well. He could play as a Draymond-Green-type next to Horford. That said, I wouldn't give up Jaylen for him and I'm not really sure he's the solution to the team's struggles. I feel like this team needs leadership more than ever to get over it's current hump, and Simmons is clearly not a leader.
 

PedroKsBambino

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I don't agree on this, Beal is a much better off-ball player than Simmons. I like Simmons, but Beal/Jaylen/Tatum are all shooters, and all drivers. Beal is a good passer, Tatum is getting there, and Beal's D has improved. That's a core of 3 stars who can play on both ends and each score at 3 levels, that's about Ideal as a core.

I think you could argue that Simmons needs the ball to be effective far more than any of those 3, in the sense that he can't catch and shoot. He's a great passer and defender, and he'd be a big upgrade on the Smart situation, but in terms of versus similar level stars (or higher) I'd rather have someone like Brown who is more versatile.
I think what's true is Beal is a much better offensive off-ball player than Simmons. I took part of HRB's point to be that Simmons offers significant off-ball value defensively while Beal does not.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think what's true is Beal is a much better offensive off-ball player than Simmons. I took part of HRB's point to be that Simmons offers significant off-ball value defensively while Beal does not.
yeah, I get that, but Beal has developed into a solid enough defender, and to me at least having an elite defender on the perimeter is nice, It's not more important in a star than versatile offense. An elite defensive big... maybe.
 

HomeRunBaker

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yeah, I get that, but Beal has developed into a solid enough defender, and to me at least having an elite defender on the perimeter is nice, It's not more important in a star than versatile offense. An elite defensive big... maybe.
A true facilitator who doesn’t require shots is actually better than a third big-time scorer when you only have one ball and no facilitator. Beal is more of a combo guard but faces the same challenges as Smart when it comes to it being a full-time responsibility as well as having to defend quicks. It would completely change Beal’s game and gets Jaylen fewer touches which makes for an awkward fit.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Tatum openly said that they have talked about it.
Ok - I have seen that. But again, the Tatum comments don't tell us anything about Beal's desires. Your point on the rental aspect isn't lost but unless it really is Boston or bust for Beal, its hard to see the Celtics being able to win on a Smart++ package alone. You keep saying 30 games but its not the 30 games. Teams get some inside track for Beal which you can discount but they also get him for the real season that follows the ~30 games.
 

tbb345

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Kind of amazing that this thread has reached 2 pages of serious discussion for a trade that will never happen and was 100% leaked by the Philly FO

I don’t know what the final package for Simmons looks like but I would be completely shocked if it’s anywhere near Browns value
 

Cellar-Door

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A true facilitator who doesn’t require shots is actually better than a third big-time scorer when you only have one ball and no facilitator. Beal is more of a combo guard but faces the same challenges as Smart when it comes to it being a full-time responsibility as well as having to defend quicks. It would completely change Beal’s game and gets Jaylen fewer touches which makes for an awkward fit.
I don't agree if that facilitator doesn't have any gravity. Beal's addition works because he's a solid facilitator in the way Marcus is, but he can shoot and get to the rim.
Also to me... if you trade Jaylen Brown... well that opens up a whole lot of stars... some of whom are better than Simmons. Trading Jaylen for Simmons on the hope you can get Beal probably makes sense less than trading Jaylen for a PG who can also shoot.

Jaylen for Simmons makes little sense because it requires a second move. If you're willing to trade Jaylen, why not just go get a guy at PG who won't create offensive issues? Simmons is attractive as a trade asset in a non-Jaylen deal because his talent is so high, in a Jaylen deal... you're trading the best player and creating more holes that you need to fill.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Ok - I have seen that. But again, the Tatum comments don't tell us anything about Beal's desires. Your point on the rental aspect isn't lost but unless it really is Boston or bust for Beal, its hard to see the Celtics being able to win on a Smart++ package alone. You keep saying 30 games but its not the 30 games. Teams get some inside track for Beal which you can discount but they also get him for the real season that follows the ~30 games.
I’ve said that the Celtics chances for a Smart swap have to do with Beal making it known behind the scenes that he will only extend in Boston. Tatum saying that they have discussed this puts this possibility in play but again we don’t know how strongly Beal feels except that Tatum makes it sound like a possibility.
 

JCizzle

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FWIW, that seems to be a fake account. "TheNBACenFral", not central.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I want that to be real. The idea of Brad Stevens hanging up on Morey without saying a word gives me great joy even if I don't know why.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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I just saw at @TheNBACenpal that the Celtics countered with Carsen Edwards and a 2nd rounder for Simmons and three firsts.
 

luckiestman

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How does someone as reputable as Shams put this out there without getting Celtics on the record first?
 

CaptainLaddie

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I engaged with my wife in conversation about having a threesome with Jennifer Lawrence, for the record. It's probably got a better chance of happening, too!
 

Cellar-Door

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How does someone as reputable as Shams put this out there without getting Celtics on the record first?
I mean, Morey tells him, we discussed it with Boston, and it would take Jaylen.. he prints that. Boston said, oh we never discussed it, which probably means they didn't move beyond, oh hey touching base, GMs talk all the time. There is no real reason for him to go to the Celtics, all he says in the article is that according to a source the Celtics and 76ers discussed Simmons, he doesn't say they discussed Simmons for Brown, that is further context.

Edit- Shams/Woj are what they are, they report what they are told, and report it as "sources say", sources did say, he's not an investigative journalist, he's a guy who makes his bones trading favors, publishing as rumor whatever his sources want out there, in return for being told first about actual transactions.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Frankly, I'd be more concerned if the Celtics didn't ask about Simmons. These leaks don't really change the market - you'd need to see real traction to the rumors before that might happen. More to the point, Stevens et al should be checking on any player that might potentially be available as well as the ones who seem immovable.
 

BigSoxFan

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I remain interested in Simmons. Jaylen is obviously an easy no but if that price ever drops, count me in.
 

HomeRunBaker

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How does someone as reputable as Shams put this out there without getting Celtics on the record first?
I would say that Shams agent contacts are much stronger than the Celtics would be in being truthful. No team is going to admit to a reporter that they are in these type of discussions. I believe his sources way more than any standard Celtics denial.

I mean, Morey tells him, we discussed it with Boston, and it would take Jaylen.. he prints that. Boston said, oh we never discussed it, which probably means they didn't move beyond, oh hey touching base, GMs talk all the time. There is no real reason for him to go to the Celtics, all he says in the article is that according to a source the Celtics and 76ers discussed Simmons, he doesn't say they discussed Simmons for Brown, that is further context.

Edit- Shams/Woj are what they are, they report what they are told, and report it as "sources say", sources did say, he's not an investigative journalist, he's a guy who makes his bones trading favors, publishing as rumor whatever his sources want out there, in return for being told first about actual transactions.
Has Shams ever been played like this before? I don’t recall any history of that which is why I believe him.
 

lexrageorge

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I would say that Shams agent contacts are much stronger than the Celtics would be in being truthful. No team is going to admit to a reporter that they are in these type of discussions. I believe his sources way more than any standard Celtics denial.


Has Shams ever been played like this before? I don’t recall any history of that which is why I believe him.
Not so much being played as Shams having his own incentives, as with everyone else.

The Celtics front office absolutely has to deny the story. There is nothing to be gained by upsetting Jaylen Brown, arguably their best player so far this young season. My guess is that Stevens didn't simply hang up the phone, but probably did say "you need to make another offer before this conversation can continue" and left it at that.

The Shams/Klutch connection is real, and so there would be an incentive for Shams to overhype a routine phone conversation. Or, more likely, overhype a slightly more than routine phone conversation that went nowhere... for now.
 

tbb345

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I would say that Shams agent contacts are much stronger than the Celtics would be in being truthful. No team is going to admit to a reporter that they are in these type of discussions. I believe his sources way more than any standard Celtics denial.


Has Shams ever been played like this before? I don’t recall any history of that which is why I believe him.
I think your “blow it up” stance has gone to your head and made you a little crazy here.

“Having discussions” could mean Brad asked what it would take, Morey says “Brown” Brad says no. After a couple of days, Brad asks if the price has gone down and Morey says it’s still brown. End of discussion.

So Shams wouldn’t be “played” since what he’s saying is the truth. But it’s also nothing serious and won’t go anywhere.

I feel like I’m shouting at clouds here but why in the world would you give up Brown for a guy who’s value has completely cratered? The whole thing makes 0 logical sense and reeks of Morey/klutch using Shams to help pump up some value for Ben
 

NomarsFool

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Recent injury aside, which certainly seems like a very temporary thing, Brown seems poised to potentially become one of the real stars in the league. He's also signed to a (now) below market contract, in my opinion.

Simmons' value seems to be plummeting. That certainly doesn't mean he can't turn it around, but even trading them straight up seems like a stretch to me - but others on this board are much higher on Simmons than I am.