Sebastian Vollmer headed to IR

lithos2003

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They could have just kept him on PUP if they thought he could come back this season. I think he never appears in a Patriots uniform again.
Good point - I forgot that they could keep him on PUP and just stash him there if there was any chance of him playing again this season. That sucks.
 

ifmanis5

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Not helping a unit that needs the most help. I'm guessing his time here is done.
At least no bad Amendola news today. Yet. Don't jinx it. Sorry.
 

Ed Hillel

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This injury is devastating, no way around it. They need a trade desperately.
 

Harry Hooper

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So, can't pass block (minus Vollmer) and can't run block (minus Mason). Other than that, the OL looks great.
 

schillzilla

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In some way this forces NE to look at upgrading the position vs being caught off guard later in the season when either Vollmer or Solder would have gone down with the inevitable injury. There was a close to zero percent chance those guys were going to last the season and three playoff games. I was not comfortable just bringing the OT group back from last year, too many injury concerns and Cannon still being involved.
 

Super Nomario

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In some way this forces NE to look at upgrading the position vs being caught off guard later in the season when either Vollmer or Solder would have gone down with the inevitable injury. There was a close to zero percent chance those guys were going to last the season and three playoff games. I was not comfortable just bringing the OT group back from last year, too many injury concerns and Cannon still being involved.
I'd be surprised if they make a big move. It's not like there are extra tackles hanging around waiting to be snatched up.
 

Shelterdog

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I'd be surprised if they make a big move. It's not like there are extra tackles hanging around waiting to be snatched up.
Agreed. They might pick up somebody else's cam flemming equivalent off of waivers but it's pretty late in the game to get a good tackle.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The only somewhat foreseeable opportunity to add someone externally who can impact the tackle position is to get lucky: a team with a good tackle drops out of contention early and is looking to move someone in the last year (or so) of their contract.
 

amarshal2

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Do any of the interior o-lineman have a chance to be better than Flemming/Cannon/Waddle at RT if they commit to it full time? Stork or Jackson?
 

Super Nomario

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Fleming, guys. One "m."

Do any of the interior o-lineman have a chance to be better than Flemming/Cannon/Waddle at RT if they commit to it full time? Stork or Jackson?
Thuney would be the obvious candidate as a college T, but he looks like the best OL on the team already so I'm not really inclined to move him around. It's not like the interior OL is really solid and can afford to take a hit; you're kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul.
 

Stitch01

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Ugh. This is the first season in a decade where I wouldn't be shocked if the Pats miss the playoffs.
 

SeoulSoxFan

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Ugh. This is the first season in a decade where I wouldn't be shocked if the Pats miss the playoffs.
Oh come on, Stitch.

They were this close to the SB last year with being the only team who didn't start the same OL combination for more than 2 games. They had Stork playing right tackle. Thuney was still playing for NC State.

It sucks that Vollmer & Lewis won't contribute much (if at all) this year, but for most of the seaons & the playoffs, what has changed except they got a true #2 TE, got a starting caliber rookie LG, deepest WR group in years, and a possible top 5 defense?

I would be very, very shocked if they didn't win at least 11 games and win the AFCE by 2+ games.
 

Stitch01

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The advanced projections are lower on Pats than anytime in the last decade or so. They are going to play four games without Brady and with a shit line. I'd bet on them winning the division for sure but I'd say something like 30 percent chance or so they miss the playoffs. Definitely the first year I haven't hammered the Pats over in years.
 

Super Nomario

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It sucks that Vollmer & Lewis won't contribute much (if at all) this year, but for most of the seaons & the playoffs, what has changed except they got a true #2 TE, got a starting caliber rookie LG, deepest WR group in years, and a possible top 5 defense?
Somewhat playing devil's advocate, but the other major things that have changed are Chandler Jones traded (exacerbated by Ninkovich's injury / age) and Brady's suspension. They also have a tougher schedule, facing the NFC West and AFC North instead of the two worst divisions in football (AFC South and NFC East). 10-6 or even 9-7 would not be shocking.
 

H78

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This team is loaded. They're not going to win less than 11 games, even with the injuries and Brady missing four games.
 

Stitch01

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I'd bet 10-6 if I had to pick a specific record so its not like I'm super pessimistic. Just think the margin of error is slimmer than anytime in recent years and I have real concerns that we repeat last year where the offense skill players aren't available enough for a portion of the season to overcome the shit line and play at the level we are accustomed to. I would pick a handful of teams ahead of the Pats as super bowl favorites instead of zero or one.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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The advanced projections are lower on Pats than anytime in the last decade or so. They are going to play four games without Brady and with a shit line. I'd bet on them winning the division for sure but I'd say something like 30 percent chance or so they miss the playoffs. Definitely the first year I haven't hammered the Pats over in years.
FO's projections are dumb and trend everyone towards 8-8.

Still, when healthy Seabass was their best lineman and a really good tackle.

Fuck.
 

RedOctober3829

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I'd bet 10-6 if I had to pick a specific record so its not like I'm super pessimistic. Just think the margin of error is slimmer than anytime in recent years and I have real concerns that we repeat last year where the offense skill players aren't available enough for a portion of the season to overcome the shit line and play at the level we are accustomed to. I would pick a handful of teams ahead of the Pats as super bowl favorites instead of zero or one.
Who are the handful?
 

Clears Cleaver

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Ugh. This is the first season in a decade where I wouldn't be shocked if the Pats miss the playoffs.
LOLOLOLOL. who, pray tell, can beat them in the AFC East, aka, the worst division in football the last 15 years? Tyrod Taylor and the defense that's lost multiple starters already off a terrible unit last year? Ryan fitzpatrick and the J-E-T-S? ryan Tannehill and the likely worst team in the NFL Dolphins?

The Pats again won't play a meaningful game in December (they have only a couple times in the past 15 years). BB has 18 weeks to get the o-line into shape. maybe this means they are the three seed instead of the top 2, but who really cares?
 

Stitch01

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Pitt Seattle Arizona then arguably Carolina and GB. But I'm super high on the Steelers which colors my views some.
 

Super Nomario

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Seriously??? Top 5 defense. Brady/Gronk/Bennett/Edelman/Amendola. Best coach in nfl. Their 08 roster was so, so much worse and no Brady for 15.5 games and still finished 11-5.
Where does "top 5 defense" come from? They were 10th in points, 9th in yards last year and lost their best pass rusher. I'm not seeing any additions on that side of the ball that seem likely to move that needle significantly. I would expect they'll be about the same - above average, not a top D.
 

RedOctober3829

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Where does "top 5 defense" come from? They were 10th in points, 9th in yards last year and lost their best pass rusher. I'm not seeing any additions on that side of the ball that seem likely to move that needle significantly. I would expect they'll be about the same - above average, not a top D.
For starters, good health from Hightower and Collins would improve those numbers alone. Remember how many games Collins lost to a virus and Hightower with the mcl late? More snaps from Sheard who was a better player imo than Jones last year. I think they are deeper at edge even without Jones as Long and Flowers have the potential to give a half dozen sacks each. Shea McCellin is an upgrade. With Cyrus Jones and Coleman for a full season they are deeper at corner. They are facing a very weak schedule in terms of elite QBs.
 

Super Nomario

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For starters, good health from Hightower and Collins would improve those numbers alone. Remember how many games Collins lost to a virus and Hightower with the mcl late? More snaps from Sheard who was a better player imo than Jones last year. I think they are deeper at edge even without Jones as Long and Flowers have the potential to give a half dozen sacks each. Shea McCellin is an upgrade. With Cyrus Jones and Coleman for a full season they are deeper at corner. They are facing a very weak schedule in terms of elite QBs.
I would characterize the injury luck on defense last year as average. Collins and Hightower both missed four games, and Sheard three, but a lot of guys stayed healthy. Brown, Branch, Ninkovich, Jones, Chung, McCourty, Butler, Ryan, and Harmon combined to miss only four games total. That strikes me as pretty ordinary injury luck (on defense - obviously the offensive injuries were ridiculous). Adjusted Games Lost essentially agrees - Pats ranked 4th in games lost to injury on offense, 14th in games lost on defense.

I agree edge rusher and corner are deeper. Overall, I would expect a similar performance.
 

RedOctober3829

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I also think improvement from Malcolm Brown will make a positive impact on the defense.

Here's the list of QBs they face this year
Carson Palmer
Brock Osweiler
Tyrod Taylor
Ryan Tannehill
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Andy Dalton
RG3
Big Ben
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick
Case Keenum or Jared Goff
Joe Flacco
Mark Sanchez

Two games on the road versus good QBs unless you think Fitz repeats last year.
 

Ed Hillel

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I actually liked this roster over 2014's headed into today, but the Vollmer injury kills that for me. Cannon is such a dropoff it's hard to maintain that optimism. I suppose we have Dante back, so hopefully that helps alleviate the pain, but the depth there now is brutal. Thank God they appear to have hit on a couple linemen this draft or it would be a complete shitshow. Thuney may be a solution, but who takes his spot? Maybe Cooper if he ever sees the field?

This is one place you see the impact of bitter owners stealing a first round pick.
 

Super Nomario

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I also think improvement from Malcolm Brown will make a positive impact on the defense.

Here's the list of QBs they face this year
Carson Palmer
Brock Osweiler
Tyrod Taylor
Ryan Tannehill
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Andy Dalton
RG3
Big Ben
Russell Wilson
Colin Kaepernick
Case Keenum or Jared Goff
Joe Flacco
Mark Sanchez

Two games on the road versus good QBs unless you think Fitz repeats last year.
Who did they face last year? Osweiler, Taylor (twice), Tannehill (twice), Fitzpatrick (twice), Roethlisberger, Weeden / Cassel, Bortles, Luck, Cousins, Eli, Bradford, Hoyer, Mariota / Mettenberger. I don't see much of a difference.
 

Eck'sSneakyCheese

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This is awful. Tackle was already a thin position. Waddle played a respectable RT for Detroit. I think Fleming can handle RT just not LT. Cannon... Well, yeah. This was such a glaring weakness in the off-season I can't believe it wasn't addressed. There isn't a history of them panicking and making a dumb move, so at least they've got that going for them. Maybe they can convince Eugene Monroe to not go full on Ricky Williams and come back? Joeckel from JAX? There aren't a lot of options...
 

Harry Hooper

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Time for BB to lobby Matt Light to come back, a la Colvin & Seau.
 

dcmissle

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As noted above, replacement level options are just not there for this premier position. I don't know how many, if any, teams carry starting calibre tackles as reserves. But if there are any, these teams are not trading them because the same thing can happen to them.

Short term, there may be depth improvements via other teams' cuts, or maybe a modest trade, with a capital M. Longer term, if some team starts with a long o-fer and falls out of it with a tackle in a walk year, maybe something can be done, but even then the cost would be high cuz they have you over a barrel.

It is what it is.
 

Shelterdog

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Marcus Cannon is--on paper--a pretty solid replacement--he's entering his sixth year, the Pats thought highly enough of him to give him a very good contract for a third tackle, and RT is clearly his best position.

The big question is whether the player we see this year matches the resume. I think he gets a bum rap here--I think we completely overrate how good an average starting NFL tackle or corner should be--but who knows.

I also predict that Cannon is going to gets about 40 million in free agency at the end of the year and that this board is going to be shocked. Tackle is just that hard to play.
 
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Harry Hooper

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Marcus Cannon is--on paper--a pretty solid replacement--he's entering his sixth year, the Pats thought highly enough of him to give him a very good contract for a third tackle, and RT is clearly his best position.

The big question is whether the player we see this year matches the resume. I think he gets a bum rap here--I think we completely overrate how good an average starting NFL tackle or corner should be--but who knows.

I also predict that Cannon is going to gets about 40 million in free agency at the end of the year and that this board is going to be shocked. Tackle is just that hard to play.
The hope with Cannon is his toe problem really wiped out his agility last season, and he returns to the player the Pats signed.
 

Shelterdog

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The hope with Cannon is his toe problem really wiped out his agility last season, and he returns to the player the Pats signed.
That and the return of Dante. I actually didn't think he was that bad at RT last year (he was terrible at LT) although he obviously got destroyed in Denver.
 

RedOctober3829

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Who did they face last year? Osweiler, Taylor (twice), Tannehill (twice), Fitzpatrick (twice), Roethlisberger, Weeden / Cassel, Bortles, Luck, Cousins, Eli, Bradford, Hoyer, Mariota / Mettenberger. I don't see much of a difference.
Yes, it's a similar list. I guess where you and I differ is that I think the increased time of players like Collins and Hightower on the field will improve the defense. I'm not as worried by the loss of Chandler Jones as the edge position is really deep and with the improved play of the secondary they will allow less points than last year.
 

Shelterdog

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Yes, it's a similar list. I guess where you and I differ is that I think the increased time of players like Collins and Hightower on the field will improve the defense. I'm not as worried by the loss of Chandler Jones as the edge position is really deep and with the improved play of the secondary they will allow less points than last year.
Guys like Coleman, Ryan, Harmon, Butler, and even Collins and Hightower are also at a point in their career where they might still be getting better, and there's the added benefit of having an awful lot of the same players back, particularly in the back seven.