Schroder to Celtics
- Thread starter Cellar-Door
- Start date
One thing I never really thought of until now but Schroder's 1st 3 seasons were with Al Horford. He was "tutored" by Al much like Jaylen and Jayson.
Same here. This angle makes me much more interested in how this is going to go.
I'm not getting why this has become a one or the other conversation.
The way the roster is set up now, they're playing two different positions.
Schroder and Pritchard will play the bulk of the minutes as the point guard.
Smart is now in the wing mix as the third starter there, unless people want Richardson to start over him?(assuming they're not gonna try the double big again)
I think the conversation, if there were one, would be does Schroder start over Pritchard if anything. I actually would prefer Pritchard fit-wise as a starter who can hit open threes with JT/JB on the floor. But I think it's unrealistic to start him, since Schroder would likely be pissed off in his hunt to get some of the money he threw away next summer.
Pritchard will neither start nor long significant minutes at the point. Of all the Celtic guards in the rotation mix, Pritchard stands out as the most defensively limited.
If JRich reverts back to his pre-Covid form with Miami we aren’t going to have many more backcourt minutes available so I could see Pritchard’s role limited somewhat as well. This would be a very good thing to happen if we get the old JRich.
It's been reported that Udoka is going to put the ball in Smart's hands more this season (see tweet below). Sounds like to me that if Smart doesn't have the title "Point Guard," he's going to be a de facto PG. Schroder will be handling the ball in the second unit. They could have used his offense last year (which is what they were trying to get from Teague but never got it).
View: https://twitter.com/ASherrodblakely/status/1425249071321653248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Ime Udoka also said we'll likely see the ball in Marcus Smart's hands more this season. "He's kind of asked for that. He'll be a great facilitator as well."
Yes, I'm aware he said that.
But, both Pritchard and Schroder are going to be in the rotation. Do people think playing them together is a great idea? I don't.
And if they don't play together, they're going to be the point guards to be separated as much as possible. Or call them little guards if you prefer.
I just don't see how Schroder/Smart are playing the same slot.
It makes the most sense to me that Smart is starting at the 2, or bigger guard, with Schroder(or Pritchard). Not instead of Schroder(or Pritchard).
If I were taking that Udoka quote as gospel, I'd think the starting backcourt would be Smart/Pritchard, since Pritchard would be much more useful off the ball if Smart has the ball in his hands.
I hope that's what happens, but my guess is Schroder will start with Smart to keep him happy.
He almost certainly will play significant minutes because they're going to need his shooting with Smart/Schroder/Richardson being the other guards in the rotation.
Pritchard averaged 19 minutes per game in the regular season last year as a rookie. That's already significant minutes. I'd guess he gets bumped up into the low 20s range when the team is fairly healthy, with Schroder taking the rest.
What would be the headline if this went the other way?
Celtics rescind offer to Black player: Lebron Lakers welcome Shroeder after he's run out of Boston
Celtics rescind offer to Black player: Lebron Lakers welcome Shroeder after he's run out of Boston
If Smart can move the ball then go stand in his sweet spot left corner waiting for it to swing back his way, then fine.
People are still talking about how Anthony Davis’s dad feels about the years-old IT situation, so yeah pretty much.
I think Schroder and PP will be fine against second units. I mean if memory serves, didn't the Cs often play two guards smaller (and worse defenders) than those two last year?
Unless AN really lights it up during training camp, I think opening night starting lineup will be JT, JB, MS, RIchardson, and TL. Schroder will be first in off the bench and his job will be to create for the second unit. PP, AN, and Al will be regular substitutions; everyone else will be match-up based.
My thoughts on Pritchard:
- I think his 19 mintues will stay the same or drop because of his defense
- He'll always be in the regular rotation because his shooting merits that
- He'll mostly be a 2-guard, with Smart and Schroder getting most of the minutes at the point
- Injuries/trades opening up more time
- Poor shooting from the better defensive guards/wings: Smart, Richardson, Langford, Nesmith, Schroder
- Improvements in his ability to run an offense
- Improvements in his ability to defend
- Real growth from JT as a playmaker, to the point where the Celtics can get away with stuffing a small 2 guard at the point (as they sometimes got away with in the Bird era (Hi Dee Brown!)
They sure did. Though they had three little guys in the rotation most of the year. Impossible to avoid having two little guys together in that case.
I'm not looking to re-create Pritchard/Teague type lineups.
If you have two little guys in your rotation, I'd like to keep them separated as much as possible.
Saw this article, I guess Schroder has a 6-8 wingspan, didn't realize that.
warming up to a defender that can guard small PGs and aggressively pick up on-ball defense over the halfcourt line
https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2021/08/11/boston-celtics-dennis-schroder-provides/3/
Schroder is great at pickpocketing careless bigs or stripping loose ball-handlers, leveraging his 6-8 wingspan to overwhelm opposing creators.
Schroder has a very high motor, often picking up opposing guards in a full-court press, and possesses high caliber screen navigation to keep up with screen-heavy guards. He’s positionally aware and is very good at denying the ball, often leading to steals that ignite transition plays.
The only weakness in Schroder’s defensive game is his size and his underwhelming help instincts.
At 6-3, 172 pounds, he can quickly be taken advantage of by bigger creators in the post or when going downhill.
warming up to a defender that can guard small PGs and aggressively pick up on-ball defense over the halfcourt line
https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2021/08/11/boston-celtics-dennis-schroder-provides/3/
Schroder is great at pickpocketing careless bigs or stripping loose ball-handlers, leveraging his 6-8 wingspan to overwhelm opposing creators.
Schroder has a very high motor, often picking up opposing guards in a full-court press, and possesses high caliber screen navigation to keep up with screen-heavy guards. He’s positionally aware and is very good at denying the ball, often leading to steals that ignite transition plays.
The only weakness in Schroder’s defensive game is his size and his underwhelming help instincts.
At 6-3, 172 pounds, he can quickly be taken advantage of by bigger creators in the post or when going downhill.
If he was that great at pickpocketing careless bigs or stripping loose ball-handlers, I'd expect him to be averaging more than 1.1 steals per 36 for his career (that number would have been tied for 10th on the Celtics last year, with Pritchard). Steals alone definitely aren't a measure of how good a defender a guy is, but that stat doesn't really work with his description of a guy who's great at using his length to strip the ball away.
He's a better defender than IT/Kyrie/Kemba, but he's still going to be the weak link on defense most of the time he's on the floor.
He's a better defender than IT/Kyrie/Kemba, but he's still going to be the weak link on defense most of the time he's on the floor.
Most of the metrics I've seen have DS as a slight overall negative on D. A bit disappointing because it feels like he should be better, confusingly not much better Kemba. I think Kemba's instincts make up for some of his shortcomings, probably the opposite for Schroder.
Certainly seems like he should have more potential than Kemba on that side of the ball, maybe Ime can get more out of him.
He’s been on some bad teams though. Defensive metrics don’t treat those players kindly.
They were some lousy teams, but the defense was pretty damn good on most of those teams
Here are the b-ref defensive ratings for the teams he was on
ATL - 14th, 6th, 2nd, 4th, 21st
OKC - 4th, 7th
LAL - 1st
I was surprised to see that Schroder only played on one real bad team.....not surprisingly the one that was 21st in DefR. Aside from that he’s been at the forefront of some real good defenses. This is a good thing.
If you take a ten thousand foot view of Schroder's career, he is the very definition of league average whether its offense or defense. If you want to get granular beyond that, you certainly can make a case for him being better or worse but he is in Boston precisely because his of his dependable level of production. That is also why he didn't find the market he expected for his services.
He's a fine defender who does what you need him to do at the point of attack. This team will wrack up plenty of steals and runouts because Tatum, Smart, and TL can all above-average to great at getting deflections at their position. I'd like to see J-Rich go back to being the guy who got ~120 steals in 2017-2018. Hopefully with Nesmith nipping at his heels, he'll feel the pressure to do so.
I could see any of Schroder, J-Rich or Smart being the sixth man to start the season. My intuition tells me Smart, in his winning way, might even offer to come off the bench to clarify roles for everybody.
It'd be the best thing for everybody: I don't want to watch him trying to penetrate to get an open shot for Tatum or Brown because nobody's going to sag off their defender to try to stop Smart from getting to the rim as he so rarely can get to his spots to finish there. It'd be better to have two slashers in Richardson and Schroder on offense starting next to Brown and Tatum and TL. Then you can stagger the substitutions so one of Schroder or Richardson is almost always playing next to PP or Smart, as neither of them are capable at penetration, and then you don't have to worry about the perimeter hot-potato-bullshit the team engaged in so much last year when Smart and PP would share the floor.
I think of Schroder like Rondo, he has bursts of really good defense, but his play to play level isn't great.
I agree, and this is exactly where recent Celtics teams have struggled.
League average is good!! Assuming they aren’t expected to be one of your top players of course.
Having a league average guy to slot into the back half of the rotation is great. Semi, Grant etc getting actual consistent minutes is a killer.
I think we'll be happier with DS defense over Kemba's D.
I'm sure there is a DARKO/CARMELO/etc graph out there that says Kemba was average defensively last season, which is utter rubbish. I've watched enough of DS and Kemba over the last few seasons to comfortably expect Schroder to be a much better team defender. I'd also expect Tatum, Smart, Brown's defensive metrics to look better this season without having to cover for Kemba.
IMO Kemba drifts around and tries to pick up charges/loose balls, which probably juices adv def metrics. He's undisciplined, adds no on-ball defensive pressure, and is incapable of challenging shots on the perimeter. His decaying knee/age makes him worse than his days in Charlotte when he was considered simply a bad defender.
At any point, a disciplined (playoff) offense can single him out and easily get the defense into rotation.
I expect Thibs to tear out whatever strands he has left on that bulbous noggin' with a backcourt of Kemba/Fournier.
#kembarant
A big problem was Kemba getting exploited in the half court defense, which necessitated help, which put the defense in rotation, which resulted in open threes, which gave lesser teams life. Good teams overwhelm lesser teams from the opening tip. This year’s team should be a lot better defensively with Kemba gone, and with German Rondo, JRich,, AL, and Dunn, if he gets to play.
Yes, that's it. It was glaring at the end of the season against a Heat team that was playing for a seed. They attacked Kemba relentlessly, got the C's D out of position and absolutely buried the C's by half.
The Jays absurd leaps in offensive production made Kemba a very costly extravagance. Being the 3rd option on offense (and a pedestrian 3pt shooter/distributor at that) couldn't make up for his terrible defense.
The truth is Danny did a bad job in FA/trades once AD/Klutch/Bron told the Celtics to go pound sand.
I'd give Brad a solid A- this Summer in regards to trades/FA/draft/cap flex/HC hire. This team is prepared to make a move for a 3rd star with a full cupboard of picks, youngsters, expiring contracts.
Plus they have made it abundantly clear that this team is being built around Tatum/Brown. Jaylen Brown is not available, don't bother asking. Even if KAT or Beal are dangled
Just to keep piling on Kemba in the Schroder thread, his ball dominance combined with lack of availability made it impossible to develop a rhythm and absolutely buried them offensively as well. Nice guy, bye bye.
that too
DS being average at D and O will be a good fit. As long as JRich/Smart/DS focus on D, moving the ball, and are less concerned about getting POINTZ (taking turns shooting) we'll be much improved.
Getting DS at $5.9MM takes a little of the sting away from not just grabbing Delon Wright for $9MM (as long as they use the $9.8MM TPE). I mean its really hard to criticize that deal now:
2nd rounder + Fernando + Dunn + trade exception > the diff between DS and Delon
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I thought this was an excellent piece about the process of recruiting Schroeder. Al's impact is highlighted "On the phone, Horford laid out his recruiting pitch. He told Schröder his hard-nosed style would fit well in the Celtics organization and in the city of Boston. Horford emphasized that after needing to suppress his game in Los Angeles for a season, Schröder would be able to showcase his talents on the Celtics. As much as anything, Horford stressed to Schröder how badly the Celtics needed him."
This I also found interesting: "The Celtics can thank Thunder general manager Sam Presti for helping convince Schröder he would appreciate the Boston organization. During the recruiting process, Stevens told Schröder that if he had any questions, he could always reach out to Presti to learn what the Celtics were all about.... So the first thing was calling Sam Presti and saying, ‘Listen, is this good for me or not?’ Because at the end of the day he’s going to do whatever is best for me. It’s not just for his organization. And that is (rare). I can’t say that enough, there’s not a lot of people who would do that in this league. " Paints Presti in a very good light.https://theathletic.com/2860582/2021/10/01/how-did-dennis-schroder-end-up-choosing-the-celtics-it-started-with-al-horford-sliding-into-his-dms/
This I also found interesting: "The Celtics can thank Thunder general manager Sam Presti for helping convince Schröder he would appreciate the Boston organization. During the recruiting process, Stevens told Schröder that if he had any questions, he could always reach out to Presti to learn what the Celtics were all about.... So the first thing was calling Sam Presti and saying, ‘Listen, is this good for me or not?’ Because at the end of the day he’s going to do whatever is best for me. It’s not just for his organization. And that is (rare). I can’t say that enough, there’s not a lot of people who would do that in this league. " Paints Presti in a very good light.https://theathletic.com/2860582/2021/10/01/how-did-dennis-schroder-end-up-choosing-the-celtics-it-started-with-al-horford-sliding-into-his-dms/
Cuz the link is buried in the text: https://theathletic.com/2860582/2021/10/01/how-did-dennis-schroder-end-up-choosing-the-celtics-it-started-with-al-horford-sliding-into-his-dms/
Thanks, I got it buried there and couldn't get it back out when I tried to edit it. Weird.
Schroder is a great, cheap signing for the Celtics, but that article sure is puff. One, he "chose" Boston because so far as I can tell he had exactly 0 competing offers. If someone had come in $1 above that offer, does anyone think he would have still "chosen" Boston? There was no choice: it was the only offer on the table.
And, two, living in L.A. I see a ton of Lakers and the idea he "had to repress his game" because he was playing with Davis and LeBron is also fatuous. First because he simply didn't do that -- his problem was he didn't adjust his game but still played as a shoot first guy despite shooting a mediocre 43% and having superior players around him. And, if the problem was playing with 2 famously unselfish stars, well he sure collapsed as soon as they weren't on the floor with him, so I really really don't think that argument works. With or without the stars, he was mediocre or worse.
That said, I do think going back to his role in OKC as an off the bench guy Schroder will excel. So it is a great signing. Just don't think anyone should believe nonsense about him "choosing" Boston or having his game repressed by playing with LeBron and AD.
And, two, living in L.A. I see a ton of Lakers and the idea he "had to repress his game" because he was playing with Davis and LeBron is also fatuous. First because he simply didn't do that -- his problem was he didn't adjust his game but still played as a shoot first guy despite shooting a mediocre 43% and having superior players around him. And, if the problem was playing with 2 famously unselfish stars, well he sure collapsed as soon as they weren't on the floor with him, so I really really don't think that argument works. With or without the stars, he was mediocre or worse.
That said, I do think going back to his role in OKC as an off the bench guy Schroder will excel. So it is a great signing. Just don't think anyone should believe nonsense about him "choosing" Boston or having his game repressed by playing with LeBron and AD.
This is probably true, but I would think that a player signing a 1-year pillow contract to rebuild market value would be focused more on 'fit' than on top dollar. If the Lakers had somehow offered him $10 million on the condition that he would be 13th man on the roster, I think he'd have still taken the Celtics offer.
I don;t know. Just a quick look at the numbers suggests he was playing differently (albeit not better).
- During his 2 years in OKC (and also during his last 3 years in Atlanta), he averaged over 17 shots per 36 minutes; with the Lakers last year he average 14.
- During his 2 years in OKC, he averaged 5.7 and 5.9 threes per 36; with the Lakers last year he averaged 3.9.
- With the exception of his rookie year, he had the lowest usage rate of his career last year (career average, 26.5; last year 22.9).
in re the former, I think both are true. He didn't have that choice....once the Lakers moved on, there wasn't another option. I don't doubt you're right that the smart decision if he did have an option with a bit more money would have been to choose the better fit in the hopes of getting much bigger money next year.
in re the latter, you're right -- that's what one gets for posting based on eye test and not double checking vs the numbers. Just a funky, up and down season overall. He's in the perfect position coming off the position to re-build his value.
in re the latter, you're right -- that's what one gets for posting based on eye test and not double checking vs the numbers. Just a funky, up and down season overall. He's in the perfect position coming off the position to re-build his value.
A funky season for the Lakers: Lebron and Davis missed a lot of time, leaving Schroder as one of the only competent offensive creators and playmakers for big chunks of the season. It makes sense that Schroder would struggle as not only lead guard but lead offensive shot-creator. He's a secondary playmaker and will really play up against second units.
While I don't see Ime changing, I'd like to see DS start with Al/TL splitting the 5 (yes I know the TL/Al DEFrtg looks great)
No more DS/PP pairings (it happened in Dallas again)
Make Marcus a wing again and more of a secondary ballhandler
https://theathletic.com/2945962/2021/11/10/why-dennis-schroder-is-earning-starting-spot-during-jaylen-browns-absence/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983
He had a reputation for being opportunistic in the past with his defense, often letting drivers by so he could try to pick them off from behind and then watch the rest of the play. That’s nothing new in Boston, as Rajon Rondo turned into a world-class matador late in his tenure, and the point guards who followed him had to do it often because they couldn’t get through the screen quickly.
But so far this regular season, his commitment has been good enough to make him a viable defender in the team’s switching scheme. Even when the Celtics don’t switch — which seems to be increasing as they get smarter about reading when to do it or are in a different coverage — he is fighting his way through screens better than last year.
Teams will target those one-through-five pick-and-rolls, knowing they can get Schröder from the point guard to the center and then shove him down into the paint. The Celtics will typically run a peel switch, where a teammate will slide in from the corner to take the big, then Schröder has to find another player to guard on the perimeter. The counter for this is that the offense can quickly swing the ball to that open shooter while the peel switch is happening.
Udoka’s solution has been to have Schröder sprint to close hard on the shooter at the risk of overrunning the play. When the shooter dribbles past him, they then slide over the high defender on the opposite side down to the nail (the center of the free-throw line) to stop the drive. It gives Schröder a chance to run back into the play, while the shooter his teammate abandoned is close enough to not get a wide-open shot if the ball swings his way.
No more DS/PP pairings (it happened in Dallas again)
Make Marcus a wing again and more of a secondary ballhandler
https://theathletic.com/2945962/2021/11/10/why-dennis-schroder-is-earning-starting-spot-during-jaylen-browns-absence/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983
He had a reputation for being opportunistic in the past with his defense, often letting drivers by so he could try to pick them off from behind and then watch the rest of the play. That’s nothing new in Boston, as Rajon Rondo turned into a world-class matador late in his tenure, and the point guards who followed him had to do it often because they couldn’t get through the screen quickly.
But so far this regular season, his commitment has been good enough to make him a viable defender in the team’s switching scheme. Even when the Celtics don’t switch — which seems to be increasing as they get smarter about reading when to do it or are in a different coverage — he is fighting his way through screens better than last year.
Teams will target those one-through-five pick-and-rolls, knowing they can get Schröder from the point guard to the center and then shove him down into the paint. The Celtics will typically run a peel switch, where a teammate will slide in from the corner to take the big, then Schröder has to find another player to guard on the perimeter. The counter for this is that the offense can quickly swing the ball to that open shooter while the peel switch is happening.
Udoka’s solution has been to have Schröder sprint to close hard on the shooter at the risk of overrunning the play. When the shooter dribbles past him, they then slide over the high defender on the opposite side down to the nail (the center of the free-throw line) to stop the drive. It gives Schröder a chance to run back into the play, while the shooter his teammate abandoned is close enough to not get a wide-open shot if the ball swings his way.
While I like DS (see my comments since the start of the season). If the Celtics are 25-25 at the trade deadline, I wouldn't mind them dealing his cheap contract (+ other assets) for a potential PG of the future
If the Bulls are still rampaging and they get caught up with trying to make a title run this season who says no to
DS + protected 1st for Coby White
Coby may be grumbling/unhappy with the signing of Lonzo Ball + Caruso + drafting Dosunmu (SG). DS would add a major piece to their bench. Billy Donovan utilized DS to 6th man of the year contention 2 seasons ago, so he's familiar. Their contracts match up.
If the Bulls are still rampaging and they get caught up with trying to make a title run this season who says no to
DS + protected 1st for Coby White
Coby may be grumbling/unhappy with the signing of Lonzo Ball + Caruso + drafting Dosunmu (SG). DS would add a major piece to their bench. Billy Donovan utilized DS to 6th man of the year contention 2 seasons ago, so he's familiar. Their contracts match up.