Say it ain't so, Jameis . . .

Average Reds · Nov 20, 2013

never mind.

Ed Hillel · Nov 20, 2013

Well, it's not like he punched a cop.

Freddy Linn · Nov 21, 2013

TALLAHASSEE -- A DNA analysis completed by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement on Tuesday confirmed that DNA provided by Florida State quarterback Jameis Winston matched the sample taken from the underwear of a woman who has accused him of sexual battery.

According to the DNA analysis report, a copy of which was viewed by ESPN.com on Wednesday, the Florida state crime lab determined that the chances of the DNA in the woman's underwear are a match for someone other than Winston was one in 2.2 trillion.

ESPN

DukeSox · Nov 21, 2013

Soooo....

Alabama 3peat?

riboflav · Nov 21, 2013

Obviously, DNA does not mean rape by itself. What else do we know? I'm having trouble piecing the facts together as most articles are only discussing the fact that this came out of nowhere 11 months later. Has Winston claimed he doesn't know the girl or never had sex with her? Was she examined soon after the alleged rape occurred?

IdiotKicker · Nov 21, 2013

Right now, just about the only things we know are that the Florida cops botched the handling of the case, and that it does appear that Winston had some type of contact with the woman, based on the DNA evidence. Beyond that, I try not to speculate too much, just because of the Duke lacrosse case, which pissed me off to no end. The major difference is that was an overaggressive attempt to prosecute, as opposed to the bumbling we've seen here, but with these types of allegations, I typically try to restrain myself from making judgments at this point, simply because we have absolutely no idea right now.

IdiotKicker · Nov 21, 2013

Yeah those might not be the perfect words. I was just trying to say that at this point, Tallahassee PD has screwed up pretty badly, and that we don't know enough about the Winston situation for me to feel comfortable commenting one way or another. I will tell you that this will end a number of careers at Tallahassee PD, but that's about as far as I would go at this point. I tend to get pretty touchy about rape allegations after the Duke case. Not to say that it didn't happen, but I just hate the rush to judgment that seems to happen so often.

PaulinMyrBch · Nov 21, 2013

DNA on the panties means one of two things. She went through a rape kit protocol at a hospital shortly after the incident, which would not be a good sign for Jameis. Or, she pulled a Monica Lewinsky, in which case she would need to explain that situation.

My guess based on what is out there. He had relations with her. His witness affidavits are probably along the lines of she was coming on to him all night wherever they were and behaving in a way that suggested she was willing. At some point, she is claiming she said no and, no means no. He is claiming consensual sex. And like a million times before, here we are. Kobe/Ben/Chumura/Tyson/etc... take your pick. This is not ending anytime soon. Typical he said, she said, but I doubt she's pushing it at this stage without some evidence, which means its not going away soon IMO.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Nov 21, 2013

PaulinMyrBch said:
DNA on the panties means one of two things. She went through a rape kit protocol at a hospital shortly after the incident, which would not be a good sign for Jameis. Or, she pulled a Monica Lewinsky, in which case she would need to explain that situation.

My guess based on what is out there. He had relations with her. His witness affidavits are probably along the lines of she was coming on to him all night wherever they were and behaving in a way that suggested she was willing. At some point, she is claiming she said no and, no means no. He is claiming consensual sex. And like a million times before, here we are. Kobe/Ben/Chumura/Tyson/etc... take your pick. This is not ending anytime soon. Typical he said, she said, but I doubt she's pushing it at this stage without some evidence, which means its not going away soon IMO.

Lots of stories mention a rape kit as the source of the evidence and that it was conducted on the same day as the incident. I imagine that a big question would be what else was discovered in terms of potential evidence of a non-consensual encounter.

PaulinMyrBch · Nov 21, 2013

Additional kit evidence bad for him would be bruising, tears, trauma especially in the vaginal area. The reason her going through a rape kit is bad for him is that it is proof she cried foul immediately. That's usually an indicator of something gone wrong. A delay between the incident and a report is something the defense is usually looking at as favorable. Not always, but it creates issues. If she had a rape kit, it was likely soon after the incident.

Average Reds · Nov 21, 2013

Chuck Z said:
Yeah those might not be the perfect words. I was just trying to say that at this point, Tallahassee PD has screwed up pretty badly, and that we don't know enough about the Winston situation for me to feel comfortable commenting one way or another. I will tell you that this will end a number of careers at Tallahassee PD, but that's about as far as I would go at this point. I tend to get pretty touchy about rape allegations after the Duke case. Not to say that it didn't happen, but I just hate the rush to judgment that seems to happen so often.

Couple of thoughts here.

First, I understand your reluctance to speculate, but that reluctance should not cause us to avert our eyes to the plain truth in front of us. It is a sad reality that when it comes to big time college athletics, there is a long and well-documented tendency on the part of local police to look out for players/coaches caught in a bind. They look the other way; they pressure people not to go forward; they basically protect the recruit/player/coach/other personality. There are quite literally dozens of cases I could cite in major college towns across the country, so it's not a Florida issue or an SEC issue. It's a cultural issue.

On rare occasions, the abuses of the process work the other way. The Duke lacrosse case is an example of this. But the known facts will tell you right out of the gate that this isn't like the Duke lacrosse case, since no one is rushing to judgment about Winston (it is almost a year later) and the best thing you can say about the police is that they did not follow through on an investigation as they should have.

I'm not in a position to know what happened between Winston and the woman in question. But it seems as clear that the police went out of their way to do all they could to protect Winston. (They seem to have spent more time alerting the FSU police and Winston's attorney than they spent actually investigating the complaint. Which is pretty telling.) Whether they did this out of stupidity, incompetence or just a knee-jerk reaction to cover up any allegations of wrongdoing about an FSU player is something we'll learn in coming days.

The one thing that we're unlikely to ever learn is exactly what happened that night. Which appears to be the result the police were aiming for.

IdiotKicker · Nov 22, 2013

Completely agree with you on all of those points. You see cover-ups of stuff like this far too often, and it does speak to the culture in a lot of these cities as something that needs significant change. I won't dispute that, and I think it is a major problem that helps contribute to the culture of entitlement that a lot of high-level athletes tend to have.

DannyDarwinism · Nov 22, 2013

Infield Infidel said:
Winstons's lawyer says sex was consensual

lots of information here, including a ton of tweets about the lawyer's press conference yesterday
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/11/21/5129838/jameis-winstons-attorney-consensual-sex

IMO, the most interesting bit is that DNA was taken from one of the two witnesses who Jansen claims will exonerate Winston. I was assuming the witnesses would merely be able to state that the alleged victim was into Winston at some point in the night, which wouldn't do a whole lot to show that she consented later on, but perhaps one of the witnesses was also a participant to the sexual encounter.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Nov 22, 2013

All I know is that the DA's office better have a strong case if they charge him, since he's apparently done playing ball - at least for this season - if he gets charged. If they charge him and eventually present a reasonable case that leads to a conviction, FSU boosters will be upset by the whole sequence of events but will have nobody to blame but Winston himself (and will hopefully be happy justice was served). But if they charge him, the case turns out to be really weak and he eventually walks, and in the meantime FSU loses their best shot at a national championship in thirteen years, people in Tallahassee are going to riot.

Morgan's Magic Snowplow · Nov 22, 2013

DannyDarwinism said:
IMO, the most interesting bit is that DNA was taken from one of the two witnesses that Jansen claims will exonerate Winston. I was assuming the witnesses would merely be able to state that the alleged victim was into Winston at some point in the night, which wouldn't do a whole lot to show that she consented later on, but perhaps one of the witnesses was also a participant to the sexual encounter.

Hmmnn...maybe that's also why they got the height wrong in the police report. She could have been describing the other guy.

Doug Beerabelli · Nov 22, 2013

So, what you're saying is there was a second shooter?

DannyDarwinism · Nov 22, 2013

Oof. Points for timeliness.

PaulinMyrBch · Nov 22, 2013

Uh oh, if she needed dna to figure out who she fucked, it's an issue. I hope they weren't stupid enough to pull the roommate switch in the dark. If the girl thought she was fucking the other guy, both are probably getting charged.

PC Drunken Friar · Nov 22, 2013

Uh oh, if she needed dna to figure out who she fucked, it's an issue. I hope they weren't stupid enough to pull the roommate switch in the dark. If the girl thought she was fucking the other guy, both are probably getting charged.

I was thinking, more like, she was blacked out drunk when they had sex

PaulinMyrBch · Nov 22, 2013

I thought I read she didn't have alcohol in her system. Of course, no real facts yet.

TomRicardo · Dec 3, 2013

Jameis Sanchez!

Edit - I wonder how this hurts his Heisman chances.

DukeSox · Dec 4, 2013

Press conference announced for Thursday, after saying it was going to be next week or after.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10079906/state-attorney-wraps-investigation-jameis-winston-case

Given the following quote...

Meggs says investigators have learned as much as they can about the December 2012 incident.

"We think we have exhausted all investigative tools," Meggs said.

...it sounds to me like Duke will have to face him in the ACCCG this weekend.

riboflav · Dec 4, 2013

Will they arrest him at the press conference? That would be so cool.

RedSoxFan · Dec 4, 2013

Wouldn't they have arrested him already if they were going to charge him? If they are having a press conference tomorrow I'm guessing there will be no charges.

riboflav · Dec 4, 2013

RedSoxFan said:
Wouldn't they have arrested him already if they were going to charge him? If they are having a press conference tomorrow I'm guessing there will be no charges.

Right. My post was tongue-in-cheek. Winston survives. The only drama remaining is whether there will be any punishment forthcoming for the investigators on the case.

axx · Dec 4, 2013

I'm glad they decided to do this before the Heisman vote and the final BCS vote.

The PC makes me thinks there are charges coming, but not Winston...

PaulinMyrBch · Dec 4, 2013

Athlete arrest history:

Hernandez - arrest, press conference.
OJ - press conference, car chase, arrest

Mark me down for no charges.

axx · Dec 4, 2013

One option could be that he would announce a plea deal.

Dehere · Dec 4, 2013

Winston and his attorney have now scheduled a press conference for 7p ET tomorrow, which seems to scream no charges.

bsj · Dec 5, 2013

The Associated Press ‏@AP
2m
BREAKING: Warrants say alleged victim in Winston case says she was raped in apartment after drinking at bar.

Warrant? That means charges right?

bsj · Dec 5, 2013

Nevermind....seems they were referring to initial search warrants...

Hambone · Dec 5, 2013

ESPN just cut away to report Winston won't be charged.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10082441/jameis-winston-not-charged-sexual-assault-investigation

Dan to Theo to Ben · Dec 5, 2013

Not enough evidence to try, specifically the (alleged) victim's lack of memory.

The word "victim" was used a lot, as was "other crimes" at least once. FWIW.

Phragle · Dec 5, 2013

Hambone said:
ESPN just cut away to report Winston won't be charged.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/10082441/jameis-winston-not-charged-sexual-assault-investigation

The Ben Roethlisberger pro comparison gets stronger every day

Doug Beerabelli · Dec 5, 2013

So he got off...twice.

PaulinMyrBch · Dec 5, 2013

So we've got a girl with a .04 BA hooking up with some football players/players and then at some point in time also having sex with her boyfriend prior to reporting the "rape" to campus police. She can't ID the perp the night of the "assault", but manages to come up with a name a month later. Despite the fact that her bloodwork showed no drugs and her BA was .04, she can't remember details of the event, to include where, when, how she got there, who dressed her, and who drove her on a scooter back to campus.

I think its time they stop raking the Tallahassee PD for not pressing the case. Arresting the Hurricanes mascot at a football game still lives on as their biggest blunder.

Yeah Jeets · Dec 5, 2013

She had sex with her boyfriend earlier in the day. The timeline between her leaving the bar and Winston dropping her off is like 45 minutes. She then called two of her friends and told them she had been raped, one of the friends called the police and her parents. 45 minutes seems like a short window to go from willingly starfucking to having buyer's remorse. It's not like her boyfriend would've found out about it either. What isn't explained is why she had trouble remembering the details.

As far as the TPD goes, it seems they didn't bother to interview the friends that the victim called nor attempt to find any witnesses from the bar who may have seen her leaving with Winston. They also didn't interview the "key" in-the-apartment witnesses/teammates of Winston until 6 months later. Plus all of the shit in the first post.

PaulinMyrBch · Dec 6, 2013

Listen, I'm not here to bash or make light of the true victims out there who report rapes that occur. Its a horrible crime, it takes incredible courage to report and continue through with the process and in the event this alleged victim was truly raped, then she deserves that respect.

I can tell you the facts of this one scream of a false report. False rape reports usually generate from three different scenarios - an alleged victim needing a story to "explain" a situation where she doesn't want to be completely truthful with her family, husband, boyfriend, etc.; as a manner of revenge against someone after being disrespected or unreciprocated feelings; or the person wanting the attention. Young white girls lead false report statistics and the numbers go up if the sex partner is black and they go up even more if she thinks he might have got her pregnant. Also most false reports aren't directly reported, but find there way to the police with the help of those that know the victim.

The one thing cops and attorneys look at when trying to determine if the report is false is the victims actions in the hours that immediately follow the encounter. There is nothing about the way this case began that would give anyone investigating confidence that a rape occurred. These are all facts that raise suspicion.

She was raped in an apartment bedroom, the rape began on the bed, but stopped and moved to the bathroom where the rape continued.
She didn't scream for help, seek help, or so much as even knock on the door of any other apartment attempting to get away or get help.
She willingly allowed someone else to dress her and willingly accepted a ride from the apartment with the perp or an accomplice.
She didn't complain to the police or her family. She told her girlfriends she was raped and THEY reported it to her family, who in turn called police.
Once she was interviewed, she was unable to remember key facts, blocks of time for the evening, the size or description of the perp, the location of the rape despite the fact that her blood level does not mesh with failed memory.
She didn't come up with a name for a month, which leads you to wonder how she actually discovered the name.
The rape kit did not reveal evidence of forcible sex or a struggle.

So let me paint a scenario for you. You're a detective, for about the 20th time in your career you have a white girl in front of you with her father accusing a black kid of rape. There is no evidence a rape occurred, possible evidence that sex occurred, and you start asking questions. On half the questions you ask her the response is "I don't' remember". She doesn't give you a name. She gives you vague and overly general descriptions of the perp. She can't remember key details. Absolutely nothing in her behavior up to the point that her parents found out is consistent with a true rape victim. That case doesn't see the front burner unless the detective has nothing else to do.

In my opinion, she reported this to her friends as a result of some of the motivations listed above. They ran with it reporting it to her parents and the cops got involved. So you've got a somewhat unwilling participant in front of a cop for an interview and she is reluctant to give true details mainly because she never wanted the cops involved in the first place. But it had mushroomed to that point and she was stuck. So rather than lie, she was vague or didn't remember. Totally understandable. Like it or not, the outcome was correct in this case.

DJnVa · Dec 6, 2013

The rape kit did not reveal evidence of forcible sex or a struggle.

Was this info actually released? From what I heard on radio this morning, the assumption is that it didn't show anything, hence no charges, but we don't actually know what it showed.

PC Drunken Friar · Dec 6, 2013

This press conference is horrible and really leads me to believe, that, rape or no rape, it was not investigated properly.

And he contradicts himself...in a previous interview, he said that he DID want to do this before the Heisman vote.

http://www.youtube.c...Eao4MXRS14#t=32

PaulinMyrBch · Dec 6, 2013

DrewDawg said:
Was this info actually released? From what I heard on radio this morning, the assumption is that it didn't show anything, hence no charges, but we don't actually know what it showed.

I thought Meggs statement indicated there was a lack of finding of force in the investigation. I took that to mean nothing from the rape kit, as they would be looking for vaginal evidence of force, or other marking, bruising, etc to indicate someone was restrained or held down against their will. So lack of evidence is consistent with that, at least makes it more likely.

Yeah Jeets · Dec 6, 2013

PaulinMyrBch said:
text

A couple things...
1. She identified Winston to the police after seeing him in one of her classes a month later
2. In the initial police report, there were "no obvious signs of external injury", but there were "several bruises"

I'm aware of how sketchy the details are and I don't have it out for Winston, but I'm not buying any of the possible motivations that have been thrown out since the case went public. Initially people were saying that she had been seeing Winston and was upset about his girlfriend coming to town, turns out she hadn't met him prior to that night. If she doesn't tell her friends she was raped, her boyfriend, family, and no one else besides the girl and the people in that apartment know what happened. If she wants attention, leaving school and deleting your social media pages is an odd way of showing it. If she doesn't want the law involved, why tell anyone she was raped? Why tell anyone anything about the incident at all? This is hardly a cut-and-dry case of a false accusation.

At this point it's the word of the victim against the word of Winston's friends/teammates (who were not interviewed until several months later). Whether or not you think the girl is credible, TPD pretty clearly mishandled the case, especially after learning the identity of the accused. The clownshow PC yesterday illustrated that pretty clearly.

HomeBrew1901 · Dec 6, 2013

PaulinMyrBch said:
Listen, I'm not here to bash or make light of the true victims out there who report rapes that occur. Its a horrible crime, it takes incredible courage to report and continue through with the process and in the event this alleged victim was truly raped, then she deserves that respect.

I can tell you the facts of this one scream of a false report. False rape reports usually generate from three different scenarios - an alleged victim needing a story to "explain" a situation where she doesn't want to be completely truthful with her family, husband, boyfriend, etc.; as a manner of revenge against someone after being disrespected or unreciprocated feelings; or the person wanting the attention. Young white girls lead false report statistics and the numbers go up if the sex partner is black and they go up even more if she thinks he might have got her pregnant. Also most false reports aren't directly reported, but find there way to the police with the help of those that know the victim.

The one thing cops and attorneys look at when trying to determine if the report is false is the victims actions in the hours that immediately follow the encounter. There is nothing about the way this case began that would give anyone investigating confidence that a rape occurred. These are all facts that raise suspicion.

She was raped in an apartment bedroom, the rape began on the bed, but stopped and moved to the bathroom where the rape continued.
She didn't scream for help, seek help, or so much as even knock on the door of any other apartment attempting to get away or get help.
She willingly allowed someone else to dress her and willingly accepted a ride from the apartment with the perp or an accomplice.
She didn't complain to the police or her family. She told her girlfriends she was raped and THEY reported it to her family, who in turn called police.
Once she was interviewed, she was unable to remember key facts, blocks of time for the evening, the size or description of the perp, the location of the rape despite the fact that her blood level does not mesh with failed memory.
She didn't come up with a name for a month, which leads you to wonder how she actually discovered the name.
The rape kit did not reveal evidence of forcible sex or a struggle.

So let me paint a scenario for you. You're a detective, for about the 20th time in your career you have a white girl in front of you with her father accusing a black kid of rape. There is no evidence a rape occurred, possible evidence that sex occurred, and you start asking questions. On half the questions you ask her the response is "I don't' remember". She doesn't give you a name. She gives you vague and overly general descriptions of the perp. She can't remember key details. Absolutely nothing in her behavior up to the point that her parents found out is consistent with a true rape victim. That case doesn't see the front burner unless the detective has nothing else to do.

In my opinion, she reported this to her friends as a result of some of the motivations listed above. They ran with it reporting it to her parents and the cops got involved. So you've got a somewhat unwilling participant in front of a cop for an interview and she is reluctant to give true details mainly because she never wanted the cops involved in the first place. But it had mushroomed to that point and she was stuck. So rather than lie, she was vague or didn't remember. Totally understandable. Like it or not, the outcome was correct in this case.

Aren't you the guy that had a close personal friend that had a "relationship" with a minor and was brought up on charges but you know in your heart that he was innocent and the victim wasn't actually a victim?

Average Reds · Dec 6, 2013

HomeBrew1901 said:
Aren't you the guy that had a close personal friend that had a "relationship" with a minor and was brought up on charges but you know in your heart that he was innocent and the victim wasn't actually a victim?

I don't agree with PaulinMyrBch here, but this strikes me as an unreasonable and very personal response.

PaulinMyrBch · Dec 6, 2013

Aren't you the guy that had a close personal friend that had a "relationship" with a minor and was brought up on charges but you know in your heart that he was innocent and the victim wasn't actually a victim?

Not a close personal friend. A brother in law of a friend of mine. That thread was started as a way to question a plea he turned down, not to excuse or question his conduct. It turned pretty quick and I did a poor job of making my point. I don't know the truth there. I had my doubts and don't really care. He turned down a concurrent deal, went to trial, lost, got life and will die in jail. It was the worst single pretrial decision I've ever heard. That was my point.

On this, I've tried rape cases and I've interviewed multiple victims, some truthful and some that filed false reports, so maybe I'm jaded. See what RR thinks, not sure if there are any detectives on the board, or do some research. I'm just giving my opinion.

Yeah Jeets · Dec 6, 2013

A few nuggets of wisdom from Winston's lawyer:

"If anybody that knows this young man - he's poised, polite, he's the nicest young man and I believe he was targeted. These athletes are targeted by these young women. And if they don't get what they want, or they expect more, a lot of times you see in these, date rape things, maybe they're embarrassed, maybe they regret it, maybe he didn't call her, it's not the first time I've had a case like this with an athlete."

"I don't think it's a coincidence that nothing happened in December, nothing happened in February, and in December, he didn't throw a pass, hadn't thrown a baseball, and then in November, he's leading the team, and he's a potential for the Heisman trophy, so, I think, from what we understand, that was not a coincidence."

"Once people see all the affidavits, see the eyewitness testimony, see some of the DNA, see the toxicology report, and the girls' multiple statements, they're gonna see that her claims, she has really no credibility."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/06/tim-jansen-jameis-winston_n_4398983.html

Say it ain't so, Jameis . . .

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