Ryan Wendell is still a New England Patriot

Phragle

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Jettisoned said:
Dunno if this play was drawn up as a counter run but if the RB doesn't cut back to the left he would have gotten a bunch of yards.  The whole left side of the Pats O-Line blocked that just fine.
 
I disagree. If the RB doesn't cut back then it's butt fumble part two with Wendell playing the role of Brandon Moore. This isn't fine, it's a disaster. Wendell get's mauled so badly the RB has to cut back and they both winds up 3 yards behind the LOS on the ground. Wendell is an expensive blocking sled.
 
 
 
More Wendell getting abused by Knighton and others
 

 

 

 
 

Shelterdog

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phragle said:
 
I disagree. If the RB doesn't cut back then it's butt fumble part two with Wendell playing the role of Brandon Moore. This isn't fine, it's a disaster. Wendell get's mauled so badly the RB has to cut back and they both winds up 3 yards behind the LOS on the ground. Wendell is an expensive blocking sled.
 
 
 
So why on earth would BB sign the guy then?  There's got to be a reason--what do you think it is?
 
The problem in plays two and three isn't Wendell's blocking, by the way--there's no center on earth quick enough to make those blocks. The hope is clearly that the run action gets the DL to slow down for half a second and let Wendell get there but in both cases (and also in the Atkins sack early in the Bengals game) the DL completely ignored the run action.
 

Super Nomario

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phragle said:
 
I disagree. If the RB doesn't cut back then it's butt fumble part two with Wendell playing the role of Brandon Moore. This isn't fine, it's a disaster. Wendell get's mauled so badly the RB has to cut back and they both winds up 3 yards behind the LOS on the ground. Wendell is an expensive blocking sled.
 
 
 
More Wendell getting abused by Knighton and others
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
The first one is such a bad GIF I can't see what's happening. The middle two are extremely difficult blocks, where Wendell has to pick up a rusher that lines up between the G and T - that's really counting on that player to be delayed by the play fake; when that didn't happen, Wendell had to do the near-impossible. The last play is bad, but Connolly looked just as much at fault.
 

Toe Nash

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That first one is so choppy I can't really tell what's going on, but on #2, that seems like a fault of the play design. Wendell has to go across to get his block and I don't know how any center is supposed to get over that fast.
 
#3 it looks like Svitek is supposed to help out and he ends up blocking no one.
 
So that's 2 of 4 .gif where it's not really clear that Wendell makes a mistake or gets "mauled" but rather someone else may have missed a responsibility or it was an impossible task to start with. Which illustrates how difficult it is to really tell how good or bad an OL is.
 

Phragle

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Shelterdog said:
So why on earth would BB sign the guy then?  There's got to be a reason--what do you think it is?
Everyone is wrong sometimes. Having said that his contract has a very small percentage guaranteed - just 10.5% when most are about 40%. If he doesn't make the 53 then I got worked up over nothing, but right now he's on the roster and that's all I can go by so I'll continue raising Ryan Wendell Sucks awareness.
 
Shelterdog said:
The problem in plays two and three isn't Wendell's blocking, by the way--there's no center on earth quick enough to make those blocks. The hope is clearly that the run action gets the DL to slow down for half a second and let Wendell get there but in both cases (and also in the Atkins sack early in the Bengals game) the DL completely ignored the run action.
Super Nomario said:
The first one is such a bad GIF I can't see what's happening. The middle two are extremely difficult blocks, where Wendell has to pick up a rusher that lines up between the G and T - that's really counting on that player to be delayed by the play fake; when that didn't happen, Wendell had to do the near-impossible. The last play is bad, but Connolly looked just as much at fault.
Toe Nash said:
That first one is so choppy I can't really tell what's going on, but on #2, that seems like a fault of the play design. Wendell has to go across to get his block and I don't know how any center is supposed to get over that fast.

#3 it looks like Svitek is supposed to help out and he ends up blocking no one.

 So that's 2 of 4 .gif where it's not really clear that Wendell makes a mistake or gets "mauled" but rather someone else may have missed a responsibility or it was an impossible task to start with. Which illustrates how difficult it is to really tell how good or bad an OL is.
 
I can only post the plays I can find on google imagles. If the best you guys can say is that they're not entirely his fault then they're still negative. I've posted like seven GIFs of him looking foolish, you've posted no GIFs or him looking good. If I had the time to post HD videos off all his failures I would, but I don't have the time or the resources.

Maybe you guys need to clean off your rose colored glasses for the first GIF. It's pretty clear to me when happened. Despite that I went back and watched it in HD. It happens at 12:03 of the first Q of the November Pats-Broncos game. It's Wendell getting quickly thrown to the ground by Knighton, and then Knighton catching Ridley from behind for a NG.
 
If you guys have DVR or Game Rewind watch these plays from the AFCCG.

1st Q 8:49 - Knighton effortlessly throws Wendell out of the way and blows up Blount's run
2nd Q 5:00 - Is this one and I'd just as bad as I described earlier
3rd Q at 3:20 - Similar to the play above but even more embarrassing. Perhaps the most embarrassing play I've seen since the butt fumble. Knighton throws him well over ten feet into the backfield and stop Ridley for a loss again. I'm surprised he even went back into the game after that.
 

Shelterdog

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phragle said:
Everyone is wrong sometimes. Having said that his contract has a very small percentage guaranteed - just 10.5% when most are about 40%. If he doesn't make the 53 then I got worked up over nothing, but right now he's on the roster and that's all I can go by so I'll continue raising Ryan Wendell Sucks awareness.
 
 
I can only post the plays I can find on google imagles. If the best you guys can say is that they're not entirely his fault then they're still negative. I've posted like seven GIFs of him looking foolish, you've posted no GIFs or him looking good. If I had the time to post HD videos off all his failures I would, but I don't have the time or the resources.

Maybe you guys need to clean off your rose colored glasses for the first GIF. It's pretty clear to me when happened. Despite that I went back and watched it in HD. It happens at 12:03 of the first Q of the November Pats-Broncos game. It's Wendell getting quickly thrown to the ground by Knighton, and then Knighton catching Ridley from behind for a NG.
 
If you guys have DVR or Game Rewind watch these plays from the AFCCG.

1st Q 8:49 - Knighton effortlessly throws Wendell out of the way and blows up Blount's run
2nd Q 5:00 - Is this one and I'd just as bad as I described earlier
3rd Q at 3:20 - Similar to the play above but even more embarrassing. Perhaps the most embarrassing play I've seen since the butt fumble. Knighton throws him well over ten feet into the backfield and stop Ridley for a loss again. I'm surprised he even went back into the game after that.
So essentially your argument is that BB just doesn't realize that Wendell is the worstest football player ever but you've figured it out with NFL rewind because an offensive lineman got blown up a few times. .
 
Also, we're not saying that it's not entirely his fault, we're saying that in a few of those GIFs it's not his fault at all and it wouldn't have helped if Mike Webster or Dermontti Dawson were in there. And the fact that you make those the centerpiece of your argument speaks volumes about how closely you're actually watching the plays.
 
EDIT: I'm also willing to admit that I have no fucking idea how good Wendell actually is and that if a bunch of o-line coaches got together and ranked players I wouldn't be surprised if they ranked Wendell the 5th best or the 25th best center in the league: I just don't think even hardcore fans can evaluate the position well. 
 

Phragle

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Shelterdog said:
So essentially your argument is that BB just doesn't realize that Wendell is the worstest football player ever but you've figured it out with NFL rewind because an offensive lineman got blown up a few times. .
So what BB can't be wrong?

That's not my argument. I said clean your glasses, not take them off. My argument is that to my eyes and statistically he is horrible. I have seen every snaps of his, watch each game multiple times, study the film and the stats, and watch tons of non-Patriots games. It's so much more than being blown up a few times.
 
Shelterdog said:
Also, we're not saying that it's not entirely his fault, we're saying that in a few of those GIFs it's not his fault at all and it wouldn't have helped if Mike Webster or Dermontti Dawson were in there. And the fact that you make those the centerpiece of your argument speaks volumes about how closely you're actually watching the plays.
On all of those GIFs he looks bad. An NFL center should at least be able to get a shove in on a 325 pound 3-technique.
 
Shelterdog said:
EDIT: I'm also willing to admit that I have no fucking idea how good Wendell actually is and that if a bunch of o-line coaches got together and ranked players I wouldn't be surprised if they ranked Wendell the 5th best or the 25th best center in the league: I just don't think even hardcore fans can evaluate the position well.
So you think because you have no idea what you're talking about that means no other fan does either? That's brilliant.
 

Phragle

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Stitch01 said:
Curious if he had similar issues in 2012 when he was generally thought of as playing well.
Statistically he was slightly better in 2012.

In 2013 he had the worst PBE (Pass Blocking Efficiency) in the league at 95.6. In 2012 he was fifth worst at 96.9. Both are terrible.
 

Soxy

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I don't have a dog in this fight but, out of curiosity, what non-PFF stats do you have that say Wendell sucks?
 

Phragle

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Holy shit, his numbers are even worse than I thought.
 
Wendell has given up 63 (!) pressures the last two seasons. That's 23 MORE than the second worst pass-blocking center! What a bum. 
 

Super Nomario

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phragle said:
Statistically he was slightly better in 2012.

In 2013 he had the worst PBE (Pass Blocking Efficiency) in the league at 95.6. In 2012 he was fifth worst at 96.9. Both are terrible.
Do you think Wendell sucks as a run blocker too, or is the bulk of your criticism based on his pass blocking?
 
Per PBE, Connolly also graded out poorly in 2011, and Koppen graded out as below-average every year but 2009. None of those were as bad as Wendell's 2013, but it does suggest to me that a) rightly or wrongly, Belichick is not super-concerned with a C's pass blocking, which is why we see smaller, quicker guys like Wendell and Koppen, and / or b) that the Pats run a fair amount of unusual blocking schemes, especially on play action as in your examples above, where the C is sometimes asked to execute a very difficult assignment.
 
For most of Belichick's tenure, 4-3s have been the dominant defenses with only the odd 3-4 holdout, but now that there seem to be more 3-4s (and hybrid 4-3 teams that use some 3-4 concepts), maybe the Pats do need to revisit the formula at C. You can get away with a 6'1" 295-lber at the pivot when he's uncovered on most plays and you want to get him to the second level as quickly as possible, but it's maybe not the best approach when the other team is lining up a 330-lb guy at the nose.
 

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Soxy Brown said:
I don't have a dog in this fight but, out of curiosity, what non-PFF stats do you have that say Wendell sucks?
 
I'm not sure what else is out there.   FO likes the Pats' line a lot, particularly their running blocking (and running it in the interior of the line), but those aren't individualized.  [I don't recall if they have individualized stats at all in their almanac and I don't have a copy handy].  PFW used to have sacks allowed stats but they've gone kaput.  I can't think of any other options off hand.
 
The problem with discussing o-linemen is that there just aren't that many data points other than our subjective impressions. You've got draft status, combine data, PFF, the Kremlinology of figuring out what the team thinks of them based on playing time/contract decisions, and every now and then you pick up insider nuggets or here a guy like Cosell or Muth directly talk about your player, but after that it's essentially a bunch of guys on the interweb arguing about whether the "scouting" they do is right or not.
 

lexrageorge

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It does appear that Belichick values continuity with the personnel on the OL, perhaps more so with Scarnecchia retiring.  And there are things that are difficult to discern even by film.  Wendell knows the blocking schemes, and BB may have decided that this signing gives him some flexibility come draft/UDFA time.  I think I'm in the majority in believing the Pats should draft an OL this year, but they can at least now go into the draft thinking that they don't have to draft a center; if a tackle or guard falls their way, then they can invest the resources into the best OL available at the time rather than finding a center specifically. 
 
Perhaps Belichick, along with the coaching staff, have decided that they can work with him on his deficiencies to some extent during the offseason. 
 
JAG players are OK if they are being paid like JAG's, which I believe is the case here (I'm with the "$2M bonus is just a typo" crowd). 
 

Super Nomario

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phragle said:
Maybe you guys need to clean off your rose colored glasses for the first GIF. It's pretty clear to me when happened. Despite that I went back and watched it in HD. It happens at 12:03 of the first Q of the November Pats-Broncos game. It's Wendell getting quickly thrown to the ground by Knighton, and then Knighton catching Ridley from behind for a NG.
 
If you guys have DVR or Game Rewind watch these plays from the AFCCG.

1st Q 8:49 - Knighton effortlessly throws Wendell out of the way and blows up Blount's run
2nd Q 5:00 - Is this one and I'd just as bad as I described earlier
3rd Q at 3:20 - Similar to the play above but even more embarrassing. Perhaps the most embarrassing play I've seen since the butt fumble. Knighton throws him well over ten feet into the backfield and stop Ridley for a loss again. I'm surprised he even went back into the game after that.
Thanks, these are good examples.
 
Just for yucks and giggles, I watched the first quarter of the Super Bowl looking for similar plays:
SEA Q1 12:01 - Similar play to the two above - Knighton pushed Unger three yards into the backfield and helped make the tackle for a loss
SEA Q1 6:35 - Unger oles on Mitch Unrein, who penetrates into the backfield and grabs the RB by his ankles
SEA Q1 3:45 - Unger lets Knighton penetrate early in the play, blowing it up, and gets called for holding
 
These are roughly as bad as the Wendell plays you describe. FWIW, Unger didn't have a great game (-2.7) or season (-7.8) per PFF, but he's a good C by reputation. That it was so easy for me to find comparable plays suggests to me that these sorts of plays happen quite a bit; playing C isn't an easy gig. 
 

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Shelterdog said:
The problem with discussing o-linemen is that there just aren't that many data points other than our subjective impressions. You've got draft status, combine data, PFF, the Kremlinology of figuring out what the team thinks of them based on playing time/contract decisions, and every now and then you pick up insider nuggets or here a guy like Cosell or Muth directly talk about your player, but after that it's essentially a bunch of guys on the interweb arguing about whether the "scouting" they do is right or not.
 
I think it is a lot like guys in the secondary---if one focuses on what you see 'around the ball' it's easy to forget that scheme and playcall have a huge impact on what the players are doing, and what you see 'around the ball' may or may not tell you much about whose fault a bad outcome truly is.
 
I don't have a strong view on Wendell and, like most of us, feel like the line as a whole was blown up by Denver.   But how we assign blame for that is a lot tougher for me to be confident about than it appears to be for some.
 

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From the Yates article
 
2014
Base salary: $1 million
Roster bonus: $200,000
Cap hit: $1.625 million

2015
Base salary: $1 million
Roster bonus: $200,000
Playing-time incentives: Up to $1.3 million
Cap hit: $1.625 million (would increase up to $2.975 million if he hits all incentives)
 

PedroKsBambino

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Here's the big question:  does phragle hate the Wendell deal even at the low actual numbers?
 

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PedroKsBambino said:
Here's the big question:  does phragle hate the Wendell deal even at the low actual numbers?
 
The new contract changes their ability to put an overall better team on the field, and is much more reasonable in terms of value, but it doesn't really address the problem of Wendell himself. I just don't want him starting at Center when the year starts, or for there at least to be a young backup ready to step in when Belichick has seen enough of Wendell getting flattened by a DT on his way to Brady. While also conceding that we cannot know everything that happens with line play, I do believe the advanced stats and the eye test are enough to indicate he's a problem. As a backup, he's serviceable at those numbers. I'm just hoping he's a backup.
 

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Yeah that's a market deal for Wendell, makes much more sense now.  I thought he'd get something like 1 year/2 million, this is pretty much in line with that.  If they draft an interior lineman that beats him out he's easy to cut or carry as depth this season, if upgrades don't work they have a center they're comfortable with, and he's pretty cuttable in '15 if necessary. 
 

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Ed Hillel said:
 
The new contract changes their ability to put an overall better team on the field, and is much more reasonable in terms of value, but it doesn't really address the problem of Wendell himself. I just don't want him starting at Center when the year starts, or for there at least to be a young backup ready to step in when Belichick has seen enough of Wendell getting flattened by a DT on his way to Brady. While also conceding that we cannot know everything that happens with line play, I do believe the advanced stats and the eye test are enough to indicate he's a problem. As a backup, he's serviceable at those numbers. I'm just hoping he's a backup.
The reason the Wendell deal makes sense to me is that Connolly is also a weak link, and they save $3 MM by cutting him. I like Wendell at $1.625 MM more than I like Connolly at $4 MM. Ideally they'd upgrade both spots, but it's tough to find two starting OL in the draft and the FA market is pretty dry. Now they can take an OL high and maybe another OL late, and let Connolly, Wendell, Cannon, and the draftees compete for the C and RG spots. You cut Connolly unless he's obviously one of the two starters, and there's depth and options if the draft doesn't fall the way they expect.
 

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Super Nomario said:
The reason the Wendell deal makes sense to me is that Connolly is also a weak link, and they save $3 MM by cutting him. I like Wendell at $1.625 MM more than I like Connolly at $4 MM. Ideally they'd upgrade both spots, but it's tough to find two starting OL in the draft and the FA market is pretty dry. Now they can take an OL high and maybe another OL late, and let Connolly, Wendell, Cannon, and the draftees compete for the C and RG spots. You cut Connolly unless he's obviously one of the two starters, and there's depth and options if the draft doesn't fall the way they expect.
 
They have Josh Kline as well. I really don't know much about him at all, but the times he stepped in for Mankins last year, he seemed ok, and I remember Mankins going out of his way to pump him up. They have a good amount of depth right now, I'm just not sure there's enough talent at the top, especially in the middle. I'd like to see 2-3 new C/G in the draft, at least one in the top two rounds, and they can work from there.