Round 2: Celtics vs Cavs

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

how it happens matters.

* * * *

Teams lose games, not every loss is a referendum on the team

This. Over the last three years, the Cs have lost basically when they don't shoot well from 3P and the other team does. The past two years' team had no way to overcome this. This year's team with KP does. I'm not sure about this year's team without KP.

Funny because the NYK just shot over 50% from 3P and lost. If the Cs did that, this board would blow up and probably rightfully so.

G2 had the bad combination of not shooting well plus missing a lot of layups, many of which turned into fast break points on the other end. I don't expect that to happen tonight but Mitchell has been the best player in the series so of course that's a bit troubling. If Mitchell is the clear best player in the series and Mobley is dominating inside, the Cs will have more trouble than everyone thought but I expect BOS's overall talent to win out.

 

[InstaFace]

We all want a Chip NOW! and if they fizzle out I'll be gutted...BUT Brad has created a 5-yr window with 26-year-old Tatum's Super Max this summer & Wyc's unlimited payroll.

When I want to make a burner account here and just go off the deep end, shitposting in the Port Cellar until I'm banned, now I know what I'm going to call it.

 

[RorschachsMask]

I want to say this now before the game ends, even though they’re pulling away a bit atm.

Thank you Joe for all the Tatum PnR and letting everyone play off his gravity.

 

[snowmanny]

Just here to say that I was making fun of that “Acne Studios Stockholm” t-shirt that some injured Cav is wearing and my daughter told me it’s well-known and showed me that it’s for sale for $340.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

The Cavs have Boston right where they want them and are still in play for the championship. They only lost by 13 at home. Not shameful at all.

 

[RorschachsMask]

The Cavs have Boston right where they want them and are still in play for the championship. They only lost by 13 at home. Not shameful at all.

Celtics almost blew the game though, Cavs got it to 9.

 

[Red Averages]

Man, I was SO impressed by Jaylen tonight. I’ve been skeptical on him the last few years in the playoffs when we get into matchup offense, but his ability to drive when nothing was there, AND FINISH was absolutely huge. I can think of 5 possessions that were back breaker buckets when the Cavs thought they had a shot. Super efficient game.

The Cavs just don’t have the ability to score when Joe shortens the bench. This series is over. Celtics will suffocate them again in game 4, before the onslaught on game 5.

 

[CaptainLaddie]

When I want to make a burner account here and just go off the deep end, shitposting in the Port Cellar until I'm banned, now I know what I'm going to call it.

I actually want to know what you were going to say

Also @AlNipper49 we need new emojis. These ones ain't cutting it. Hugs.

 

[chilidawg]

Celtics almost blew the game though, Cavs got it to 9.

Tatum still not shooting well, playing with no intensity.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Man, I was SO impressed by Jaylen tonight. I’ve been skeptical on him the last few years in the playoffs when we get into matchup offense, but his ability to drive when nothing was there, AND FINISH was absolutely huge. I can think of 5 possessions that were back breaker buckets when the Cavs thought they had a shot. Super efficient game.

He stayed in control the whole game, like it was all slowing down for him. Just a terrific game by him.

 

[timelysarcasm]

Man, I was SO impressed by Jaylen tonight. I’ve been skeptical on him the last few years in the playoffs when we get into matchup offense, but his ability to drive when nothing was there, AND FINISH was absolutely huge. I can think of 5 possessions that were back breaker buckets when the Cavs thought they had a shot. Super efficient game.

The Cavs just don’t have the ability to score when Joe shortens the bench. This series is over. Celtics will suffocate them again in game 4, before the onslaught on game 5.

By his own account he took the end of last year really hard and started working on his deficiencies right away. He has really leveled his defense, driving in traffic, and midrange game up this year and it's so awesome to see.

He also got boned out of at least 3 and-1s in my opinion.

 

[RorschachsMask]

They used Jaylen almost exclusively as a play finisher tonight, which as everyone knows, is where he’s most dangerous.

Just a really smart game, played off Tatum’s gravity, attacked mismatches, and got out in transition a bunch. When we use him this way, his efficiency just skyrockets lol.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

That felt nerve-racking until about 2 minutes to go.

One question. I thought Horford looked slow and couldn't keep up especially late (although +12 for the game). He played 39 minutes versus Kornet's 8.

Why didn't Mazz play Kornet more?

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

They used Jaylen almost exclusively as a play finisher tonight, which as everyone knows, is where he’s most dangerous.

Just a really smart game, played off Tatum’s gravity, attacked mismatches, and got out in transition a bunch. When we use him this way, his efficiency just skyrockets lol.

And only 2 FT. That was a relief.

 

[Euclis20]

That felt nerve-racking until about 2 minutes to go.

One question. I thought Horford looked slow and couldn't keep up especially late (although +12 for the game). He played 39 minutes versus Kornet's 8.

Why didn't Mazz play Kornet more?

When Horford doesn't hit his 3's, he's basically useless on offense despite his screening and passing ability. I don't know if it's just a bad game or if he's going to have trouble hitting his 3s when he plays 35+ minutes, but that can't be helped until KP comes back. Kornet does other things, but Horford can at least be competitive on defense vs Mitchell/Garland. Kornet might as well actually be on skates when he gets switched onto them, they go by him like he's not even there.

Another playoff game for the Celtics with 0 crunch time minutes. I believe the Cavs only had one possession in the second half with the ball and a deficit in the single digits, could be wrong on that though. That's how you keep them at arms length.

 

[RorschachsMask]

That felt nerve-racking until about 2 minutes to go.

One question. I thought Horford looked slow and couldn't keep up especially late (although +12 for the game). He played 39 minutes versus Kornet's 8.

Why didn't Mazz play Kornet more?

I thought they missed a chance to play Tillman, or just Tatum at the 5. Cavs were running Dean Wade at the 5, and we had Al trying to run around against a super spread out, small lineup.

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

Another playoff game for the Celtics with 0 crunch time minutes. I believe the Cavs only had one possession in the second half with the ball and a deficit in the single digits, could be wrong on that though. That's how you keep them at arms length.

If I remember correctly, Cavs never got closer than 9, same deficit as was at the half.

 

[DGreenwood]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wrHaWERxH8&ab_channel=NBA

 

[chilidawg]

That felt nerve-racking until about 2 minutes to go.

One question. I thought Horford looked slow and couldn't keep up especially late (although +12 for the game). He played 39 minutes versus Kornet's 8.

Why didn't Mazz play Kornet more?

I only saw the 2nd half, but thought Kornet had some good minutes.

 

[jezza1918]

If I remember correctly, Cavs never got closer than 9, same deficit as was at the half.

Yup…they had two cracks at cutting it closer but lavert and Mitchell missed 3s and then Pritchard hit that deep one.

 

[Euclis20]

If I remember correctly, Cavs never got closer than 9, same deficit as was at the half.

Correct, the Cavs got to 9 a few times, but couldn't get any closer. Pritchard hit his deep 3, and they never got to single digits again.

 

[the moops]

Yup…they had two cracks at cutting it closer but lavert and Mitchell missed 3s and then Pritchard hit that deep one.

That Pritchard three was so deep and so important

 

[benhogan]

I thought they missed a chance to play Tillman, or just Tatum at the 5. Cavs were running Dean Wade at the 5, and we had Al trying to run around against a super spread out, small lineup.

maybe JOE should have tested out a small ball lineup a few times the last month of the regular season

 

[jmcc5400]

Looking forward to reading through this thread in its entirety. Ducking in just to say that Jrue was magnificent tonight (as were JB and JT, but I expect there will be no shortage of plaudits for them).

 

[RorschachsMask]

maybe JOE should have tested out a small ball lineup a few times the last month of the regular season

I actually felt bad for Al, he had no chance there.

I wouldn’t call it a complaint, as I’m ecstatic with the win, just felt like Joe missed on the rotation a bit.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Looking forward to reading through this thread in its entirety. Ducking in just to say that Jrue was magnificent tonight (as were JB and JT, but I expect there will be no shortage of plaudits for them).

Yeah, Jrue deserves some major props. 18/8/5 with good D. Really steady game from him and much needed with White having another iffy shooting night.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

Yeah, Jrue deserves some major props. 18/8/5 with good D. Really steady game from him and much needed with White having another iffy shooting night.

And only one turnover

 

[SeoulSoxFan]

And only one turnover

And 2nd highest +/- at +15 only trailing Brown's +18. Jru's early buckets were critical in keeping the score tight in the 1st half.

 

[Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat]

And 2nd highest +/- at +15 only trailing Brown's +18. Jru's early buckets were critical in keeping the score tight in the 1st half.

And making Mitchell work on D

 

[RorschachsMask]

My favorite part of Holiday tonight was him finishing in the post over Mobley multiple times, as dude is a fucking monster defender lol.

Jrue has a super unique YMCA game.

 

[riboflav]

And making Mitchell work on D

The Cs asked their very good but not one of their best offensive players to attack Mitchell early. Can you imagine this same scenario happening to Tatum? Me neither.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

The defense overall was the difference to me.

They made Cleveland work hard for most of their points. As much as we can complain that Boston plays down to opponents, its pretty evident that if the Cavs are going to win the series, they need their absolute A+ game each time out. This result was them trying their damndest to keep home court and they couldn't do it. That has to be demoralizing just a bit.

 

[Montana Fan]

When I want to make a burner account here and just go off the deep end, shitposting in the Port Cellar until I'm banned, now I know what I'm going to call it.

I thought that’s what the Instaface account was Denz/MDL.

 

[Montana Fan]

They used Jaylen almost exclusively as a play finisher tonight, which as everyone knows, is where he’s most dangerous.

Remember 4-5 years ago when it seemed like he couldn’t buy a layup? So, so many close misses. One of the things I really like about this Celtics team is that the draftees have totally bought into the program that, practice makes perfect. What a game by our two studs!

PS - if any of you fans missed JT on the podium tonight, try to catch it on NBA TV. His answer to the POINTZ question was phenomenal and when they went to the studio, both Dennis Scott and Steve Smith were so receptive/respectful to JT’s comments. Like the Port Cellar, they completely buy in to what Tatum is doing and how well he’s playing. Was pretty refreshing hearing their comments.

 

[lars10]

The defense overall was the difference to me.

They made Cleveland work hard for most of their points. As much as we can complain that Boston plays down to opponents, its pretty evident that if the Cavs are going to win the series, they need their absolute A+ game each time out. This result was them trying their damndest to keep home court and they couldn't do it. That has to be demoralizing just a bit.

Game two was a lot about the celts lack of effort on d.. but also their missed shots leading to easy transition buckets by Cleveland. If the celts hit their shots they also have time to set up on d. If Boston hits their shots it’s going to be hard for Cleveland to keep up as their half court offense just isn’t good enough.

 

[wade boggs chicken dinner]

By his own account he took the end of last year really hard and started working on his deficiencies right away. He has really leveled his defense, driving in traffic, and midrange game up this year and it's so awesome to see.

JB also said recently that this team is so good, he hasn't had a chance to show all of his improvements.

 

[riboflav]

Remember 4-5 years ago when it seemed like he couldn’t buy a layup? So, so many close misses. One of the things I really like about this Celtics team is that the draftees have totally bought into the program that, practice makes perfect. What a game by our two studs!

PS - if any of you fans missed JT on the podium tonight, try to catch it on NBA TV. His answer to the POINTZ question was phenomenal and when they went to the studio, both Dennis Scott and Steve Smith were so receptive/respectful to JT’s comments. Like the Port Cellar, they completely buy in to what Tatum is doing and how well he’s playing. Was pretty refreshing hearing their comments.

My favorite quote was and I'm paraphrasing, we have to come out and make them take the first timeout. That's a very tangible and easily identifiable short-term goal. I'm gonna use that.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Thought these were interesting. They were a lot more effective and efficient at attacking the rim.

 

[DeJesus Built My Hotrod]

Remember 4-5 years ago when it seemed like he couldn’t buy a layup? So, so many close misses. One of the things I really like about this Celtics team is that the draftees have totally bought into the program that, practice makes perfect. What a game by our two studs!

PS - if any of you fans missed JT on the podium tonight, try to catch it on NBA TV. His answer to the POINTZ question was phenomenal and when they went to the studio, both Dennis Scott and Steve Smith were so receptive/respectful to JT’s comments. Like the Port Cellar, they completely buy in to what Tatum is doing and how well he’s playing. Was pretty refreshing hearing their comments.

That interview was great - thank you. JT seems pretty locked in but to be consistent with my other posts in this area, we don't really know. He really is easy to root for.

 

[JakeRae]

It's fine if you want to criticize something I post, but if you are going to do that, I would appreciate it if you respond to what I actually said instead of to something I didn't say.

That being said, here are some actual claims I have made in my past 2 posts - feel free to take issue with any of them:

• Boston's playoff high-wire act (by which I meant, lots of elimination games/letting the opponent get to 3 wins first), at least recently.
• Boston's struggles at home, also unique.
• "People who look at the game 2 home losses to Miami and Cleveland, and the lack of urgency on defense that the Celtics showed in both of those games (also a hallmark of last year's team), and think "here we go again" have some rational basis for thinking that. It's too early to jump all the way to conclusions, but the potential warning signs are right there to see.
• The fact that this year's team has yet to differentiate itself from the past two... raises uncomfortable questions

Which if any of those do you dispute?

What I haven't said is the thing you attributed to me: "this is the same as teams in the past." It would be more fair to say I said it looks like it might be.

As to injuries, I agree that the KP injury was significant, but I also think the injuries to Jimmy Butler, Terry Rozier, Jarrett Allen, etc. were also significant.

Responses to each of your bullets, in order:

• What high wire act? What elimination games? Are you talking about last year? Because this year’s team won its first series 4-1 and is up 2-1. It also has a net rating of 12.9 for the playoffs so far. In other words, they have dominated.
• How are two losses at home unique? Denver dropped both its home games against Minnesota. OKC dropped a home game (and a road game) to Dallas. And the Knicks dropped a home game in the first round.
• I’m not seeing the warning signs. The team has a 12.9 net rating in the playoffs so far. That’s with two bad losses, which kind of highlight just how dominant they’ve been outside those two losses. They also are playing at a .750 clip overall, which is better than anyone else in the playoffs played for the regular season and more or less equal to their regular season record once you account for sample size (you can’t play at an .800 clip over 8 gsmes).
• This year’s team has differentiated itself from the past two. The ghosts you are seeing aren’t real. This team could still lose, but it will be because of something that happens this year, not because of historic specters.

 

[Jimbodandy]

Really enjoyed this game. Except for falling into bad habits for a few minutes at each end, they generally kept up the good habits and kept grinding. Imo Cleveland played about as well as they can against this Celtics team and still lost at home. As long as we continue to show up and bring the focus, we'll be fine.

 

[riboflav]

Really enjoyed this game. Except for falling into bad habits for a few minutes at each end, they generally kept up the good habits and kept grinding. Imo Cleveland played about as well as they can against this Celtics team and still lost at home. As long as we continue to show up and bring the focus, we'll be fine.

I feel safe saying Cleveland played very hard and that has to be disappointing to them that they still lost. They can make more shots and if Allen returns he can alter more layups at the rim and rebound better than they did tonight. Will that be enough to win the series? Probably not but may net them another win or two.

 

[NomarsFool]

Is it just my perception, or had Tatum been taking more midrange fallaways in the playoffs? He made that one in the final - was in minute? - that was a huge bucket, but my perception is that shot wasn’t doing much for him most of the game. He still had a lot of drives, don’t get me wrong, just seems like we’ve seen more of that almost Nowitski one leg move than I recall seeing in the past.

The other thing I noticed is it seemed like there were a handful of plays where a Celtics player was within 2 feet of the rim and instead kicked it out for a three. I remember making one of them, but felt like we missed most. I know that “three points is more than two” but I’ll still take a layup or a Jrue jump hook from 2 feet over a 3pA.

A great win, BTW.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Responses to each of your bullets, in order:

• What high wire act? What elimination games? Are you talking about last year? Because this year’s team won its first series 4-1 and is up 2-1. It also has a net rating of 12.9 for the playoffs so far. In other words, they have dominated.
• How are two losses at home unique? Denver dropped both its home games against Minnesota. OKC dropped a home game (and a road game) to Dallas. And the Knicks dropped a home game in the first round.
• I’m not seeing the warning signs. The team has a 12.9 net rating in the playoffs so far. That’s with two bad losses, which kind of highlight just how dominant they’ve been outside those two losses. They also are playing at a .750 clip overall, which is better than anyone else in the playoffs played for the regular season and more or less equal to their regular season record once you account for sample size (you can’t play at an .800 clip over 8 gsmes).
• This year’s team has differentiated itself from the past two. The ghosts you are seeing aren’t real. This team could still lose, but it will be because of something that happens this year, not because of historic specters.

As I said in a post made yesterday that you apparently did not bother to read, the 21-22 and 22-23 Celtics were unique among recent playoff conference finalists in 2 ways: 1) having to play a lot of elimination games 2) losing a lot of home games.

Elimination games

:
Boston: 10 elimination games in 2 team-years. (5 per playoff run)
Champions: 2 elimination games in 3 team-years (0.7 per playoff run)
All semifinalists except Boston: 12 elimination games in 10 team-years (1.2 per playoff run)

Milwaukee is the only champion of the past 3 years that fell behind 3-2 in a series and had to dig out of that on the way to the finals. Boston has had to do that 3 times in the past 2 years (succeeding twice). All other semifinalist teams of the past 3 years together have fallen behind like that a total of 3 times.

Boston's playoff high-wire act is unique, at least recently.

Home losses:
Boston: 12 in 2 team-years (6 per playoff run)
Champions: 3 in 3 team-years (1 per playoff run)
All semifinalists except Boston: 24 home losses in 10 team-years (2.4 per playoff run)

Boston's struggles at home, also unique.

Losing 2 home games this early on is, therefore, a red flag. Maybe they will figure this out as this year goes forward, maye they won't.

 

[tims4wins]

Losing 2 home games this early on is, therefore, a red flag. Maybe they will figure this out as this year goes forward, maye they won't.

In fairness, Denver has also lost two home games, and if Denver wins tonight, the Wolves will have as well.

Edit: ESPN had an article on this topic today. While the 14-14 home record is the most home games played over a 3 year span without posting a winning record in NBA history, their 17-7 road record over that span is the 5th best in NBA history.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Is it just my perception, or had Tatum been taking more midrange fallaways in the playoffs? He made that one in the final - was in minute? - that was a huge bucket, but my perception is that shot wasn’t doing much for him most of the game. He still had a lot of drives, don’t get me wrong, just seems like we’ve seen more of that almost Nowitski one leg move than I recall seeing in the past.

The other thing I noticed is it seemed like there were a handful of plays where a Celtics player was within 2 feet of the rim and instead kicked it out for a three. I remember making one of them, but felt like we missed most. I know that “three points is more than two” but I’ll still take a layup or a Jrue jump hook from 2 feet over a 3pA.

A great win, BTW.

I think Tatum is taking more, and a lot of them aren't great shots. Sometimes Tatum creates great looks for homself in the midrange, but other times he is well guarded and settles. Sometimes he hits those difficult looks (like the key one last time you mention), but he also misses a lot of them. Has anyone tracked his percentage on the one-legged Dirk shots? It feels to me like he is shooting about 20% on those, they seem to always miss. I'm sure in reality he shoots them better than that, but I'd be surprised if it is actually a high percentage shot for him.

Jaylen Brown's midrange game is one area where I would say he is clearly better than Tatum. He creates very high quality midrange looks for himself. His turnaround fallaway is a legit weapon. When I see him starting that move, I expect the shot to fall and it usually does.

Kickouts from close to the rim is something the Celtics have done all year, to the particular frustration of Zach Lowe who kept mentioning it it on all of his early Celtic-focused podcasts. I have a theory about last night's game though: in game 2, Cleveland was able to very successfully run off of Celtic missed layups, so maybe they were trying to be more careful about forcing up challenged layups. They also as you note wanted to get more threes.

 

[InstaFace]

The other thing I noticed is it seemed like there were a handful of plays where a Celtics player was within 2 feet of the rim and instead kicked it out for a three. I remember making one of them, but felt like we missed most. I know that “three points is more than two” but I’ll still take a layup or a Jrue jump hook from 2 feet over a 3pA.

Sometimes you're at the rim, but the layup just isn't there for you. I think Pritchard took one and got stuffed. We were pretty good about making the right play at the rim, imo. Went hard at it in transition. Jrue got the better of Mobley a few times there. Tatum with the two dunk, obviously. Other than one play that sticks in my craw a bit (Jaylen dribbling off his leg as he had already blown past Garland(?) and was getting to the hoop, instead it's a turnover), I didn't see any Ben Simmons-esque passing out of a layup.

 

[benhogan]

Is it just my perception, or had Tatum been taking more midrange fallaways in the playoffs? He made that one in the final - was in minute? - that was a huge bucket, but my perception is that shot wasn’t doing much for him most of the game. He still had a lot of drives, don’t get me wrong, just seems like we’ve seen more of that almost Nowitski one leg move than I recall seeing in the past.

He's taking barely more mid-rangers (.5 more a game). It feels like a lot more because it's one of this team's least efficient FGA. The baseline shot (the one he made late) is a particularly awful FGA since it puts him in bad transition defense on a miss (esp. if he jogs back).

I mean there is no way to sugarcoat this but Tatum has consistently shot like crap for these 8 games. It's a head-scratcher since he had his shooting coach, Drew Hanlan, fly in at the beginning of the playoffs. We can point to doubles and better defenders guarding him (but that is nothing new), he's also missing open + wide-open shots at a much worse rate

Hoping he breaks out of this slump soon. It is 8 games (SSS Alert) but here are the stats:

The ISO coma, dribble-fests have been particularly grizzly. Half of his playoff shots have come after 3 dribbles
3-6 dribbles: .9/3.4 eFG% 25.9
7 or more dribbles: 1.6/5.3 eFG% 33.3

His in-rhythm shots: C&S + 1 or 2 dribbles have been in line with his regular season.
no dribble: 1.8/3.5 eFG% 55.4
1 dribble: 1.4/2.9 eFG % 56.5
2 dribble: 1.5/2.3 eFG% 77.8

https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/shots-dash?SeasonType=Playoffs

 

[Eddie Jurak]

The Celtics defense led the way here, which was good to see. I think the Cavs were - at times - able to run with Garland and generate some offense that way. But the Celtics kept Cleveland's offense mostly bottled up otherwise.

Holiday played his best offensive game of the playoffs, which was sorely needed. Brown's game was also excellent.

 

[lovegtm]

Celtics almost blew the game though, Cavs got it to 9.

In addition, Cleveland scored on some possessions. Eerily similar to past Celtics' playoff failures.

The warning signs are there.