Sorry I call it like I see it. We had a good opportunity in G3 and again not respond well to tbe Bucks 3Q run so people play the blame game rather than recognizing the real obstacles.
Round 2: Celtics vs. Bucks
- Thread starter DJnVa
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Of course, what is 'blame' and what is the 'real obstacles' depends on what one saw (or didn't see) in game 3.
Do you think the third quarter was fairly called? Putting aside whether that alone turned the game, which I think few are (or should be) arguing.
Do you think the third quarter was fairly called? Putting aside whether that alone turned the game, which I think few are (or should be) arguing.
He was responding to your "point" that the Celtics only shot might be to get a noon time start.
So, you've recognized the Celtics real obstacle is the start time of the game?
That's calling it like you see it?
For real(obstacle)?
I was inferring that the only shot we now have is a noon start time on the road that resulted in Giannis & the Bucks being sluggish and lethargic in pushing tempo.
I stated in one of these threads that I watched without volume and saw 1-2 calls that I felt went against the Celtics the entire game so I’m not sure which specific calls you’re referring to in the 3Q (maybe it was the same ones I felt went against us). Overall I thought the officials were excellent in their jobs even though the calls (correctly imo) went against us.
The “obstacle” imo was being unable to stop Giannis from beating his man off the dribble and placing him out of position prior to initiating contact to draw fouls. It doesn’t help when George Hill is dropping 21 on you either.
Right.
Which is likely why you were called insufferable.
Because that's an insufferable take.
I asked someone in the game thread which calls were awful and the 3 he listed were clearly the correct call....one was the Giannis charge when his heels were up and toes were outside of the restricted area. I respect PKB so I’ll await to hear his bad calls and yours as well. Since then one poster mentioned the Bledsoe trip over Jaylens foot occurred two feet away from Jaylen. I only saw it live so maybe I missed that one but I’d like to find a replay of it to confirm.
This has zero to do with your take that the Celtics only shot is to get a noon time start.
That's what you were called out for.
I'll help your recall for you, here's what you said
There's nothing about referees, just this absurd take.
Celts gamesmanship/sandbagging?
From what I read I thought Smart was at least a week away.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26679017/celtics-smart-eyes-monday-return-injury
BOSTON -- Marcus Smart said Sunday afternoon that he's "hopeful" he will return to the court Monday night when his Boston Celtics face the Milwaukee Bucks in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference semifinals.
"Feeling good today," Smart said after taking part in Boston's practice. "Today was a good day. I was able to participate with the team. ... The boxes are being checked.
From what I read I thought Smart was at least a week away.
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26679017/celtics-smart-eyes-monday-return-injury
BOSTON -- Marcus Smart said Sunday afternoon that he's "hopeful" he will return to the court Monday night when his Boston Celtics face the Milwaukee Bucks in Game 4 of the Eastern Conference semifinals.
"Feeling good today," Smart said after taking part in Boston's practice. "Today was a good day. I was able to participate with the team. ... The boxes are being checked.
I think you can assume that he is partially joking around. And even if not, hit take that a noon start is the only way to win is no worse/better than the dozens of posts saying that the refs have it in for the Celts and unless they call it "fair" they stand no chance
Oh that isn't absurd at all. My point was our only shot is to face a Giannis who is out of his normal routine by playing a day game and brings lower energy like he did in his Noon start which is not uncommon for home teams in these day games particular the noon starts. This is data that is well known and well documented. Ironically this is being discussed as the Sixers just lost a low-scoring home game with a sluggish Simmons and Embiid.
I could pull out a zillion sports betting discussions or articles about the effect on early start times. I'll post the first one from a simple search prior to G4 of Warriors/Clippers which was also came in well Under the posted total in a slower pace game. The slower pace is very relative to this series as it gives the Celtics a tremendous advantage in relation to a faster paced game.
https://www.sportsbookreview.com/picks/nba/free-nba-pick-early-afternoon-start-could-lead-to-lower-scoring-game-4-between-warriors-and-clippers/89845/
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Jared Weiss at The Athletic did a breakdown of the third and first half of the fourth quarter and found six incorrect calls against the Celtics in the third quarter. On Twitter he admitted that the blocking call on Theis was wrong but very tough to call in real time.
That’s just a quarter and a half of game time.
You mean the same Jared Weiss who is a renowned Celtics homer from CelticsBlog? Awesome. I will check out the breakdown in a little bit thank you for the info.
Edit: Damn paywall. I did read some of his Twitter posts crying about Giannis "cheating"...….I mean this is pretty outrageous even for a CelticsBlog alum. Opinions may differ and that is fair to discuss.....but when you recklessly throw out phrasing like "The refs are letting Giannis cheat" the rest of what you write kinda loses credibility......plus I'm familiar with Jared from back in the day.
Kyrie not getting find for criticizing officials after the game. That's truly shocking. They always fine guys.
Hard to fine someone for speaking the truth.
The refs have been criminally bad. I don’t need HRBs blessing to know that as true.
Tucker Boyton on twitter posted a great video of all the fouls called again Giannis this series. It’s high comedy, especially seeing them one after another.
Is poor officiating the reason they are down 2-1? Well no, not entirely. But to brush it off as nothing while saying a noon start time somehow favored Boston and not Milwaukee as if they were playing in different time zones is laughable, nonsensical and straight up moronic.
Then again I expect nothing less from certain posters who pose as basketball know it alls.
I gave you some data to research there is plenty out there. You may have to dig deeper for some that is wagering based but I doubt you'll bother. Feel free to educate yourself on pace of play in NBA day games.....and NCAA pre-1pm EST start times (noon Unders were >70% in Jan/Feb this winter) as well though.
If you actually read the article it’s pretty clearly not written like a homer. In fact, I think he goes out of his way to take the opposing point of view throughout
If we really want to do a fair accounting of how the officials do in a given game, we probably should use sources beyond the Boston based sports media/blogosphere.
And to be clear, I have no doubt that the refs blew calls that went against Boston all series. I am just assuming that it evens out over time and, more importantly, the reason that the series is 2-1 Bucks is mostly because Milwaukee has outplayed Boston.
And to be clear, I have no doubt that the refs blew calls that went against Boston all series. I am just assuming that it evens out over time and, more importantly, the reason that the series is 2-1 Bucks is mostly because Milwaukee has outplayed Boston.
On Twitter, Tony Jones speculates that this is because the NBA agreed with Kyrie’s complaints about the favorable whistle for Giannis. Then says he expects a much tighter whistle.
I've watched bad NBA reffing for close to 60 years, and in a sample of several thousand games, Game 3 reffing was notably bad.
I'm not saying the game was fixed, or even the reffing materially impacted the final score, (although it could have) just that refs had a miserable game, made worse by their trying to cover-up their ineptitude was blowing the whistles non-stop in Celts favor for the last 5 minutes of the game to fabricate the appearance of reffing impartiality.
I wish I could but it's paywalled unless I'm mistaken. I know Jared's point of view from C-Blog and his Twitter posts screaming that "Giannis is cheating" which was what I was referencing. I am however interested if pieces of it can be posted here (not sure how much if any is allowed)
I’m not arguing the totals are lower. I’d love the explanation as to why that only hurt Milwaukee and only helped Boston.
I’ll wait.
I’ll also post the Giannis foul video when I get to my hotel tonight. I’d love a breakdown of some the calls he’s received (and the lack of travels called on him).
The pace of play is what is affected by the abnormal start time. In this particular series that would greatly benefit the Celtics to have games played at a slower pace v. the Bucks who are at their best with their secondary break which many times isn't even registered as "fast break points" as they don't always occur in a traditional fast break. The abnormal start time also affects the home team greater than the road team......I'm guessing changing up a home routine has a greater affect on them then the road team unless this is completely random. Giannis was not nearly as explosive in G1 as he's been in G2 and G3 in large part due to the Bucks playing an almost exclusively halfcourt offense in G1.....which was affected by the noon start time.
I'd love to see the breakdown of each call as well.
Not that it's an easy call to make but Giannis's heels were at best over the restricted zone line, which is a block. See: https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/blocking-ra-play-defenders-heels-raised-above-arc-line/. "To be considered legal and to draw an offensive foul, a secondary defensive player must have both feet established completely outside the Restricted Area line. On this play, the secondary defender’s heels are raised above the Restricted Area arc. Even though his toes are touching the floor outside the arc, this “heels raised” position above the restricted area arc line is not legal, and thus, this is a restricted area blocking foul."
One would think. Game 3 was egregious even by NBA standards.
Hell maybe we’ll even get a 9am tip on Friday
I don’t think there’s any evidence that calls even out in the nba.. especially in a playoff series. There is a lot of evidence or examples of series where the opposite has been true.. and as a Boston fan I have a bit of ptsd from watching the celts against the heat, Cavs. Lakers, and now the Gianis led Bucks. Each one of those teams had a superstar getting calls and the star treatment. I don’t feel as though Boston has had a star since bird that has been treated in the same way. Pierce and Irving have been the closest to superstars..IT for a short period, but they didn’t get the same love. Irving def doesn’t even though imo he draws similar contact.
Also, in both third quarters the bucks got massive advantages in free throws and foul calls.. c’s also missed shots, but there were times in both games two and three where the Bucks only offense were free throws on multiple trips in a row. This Cs team goes to the rim a lot more than most Cs teams... it seems, though, that they also choose to shoot from the outside after they don’t get calls going to the rim. (They also have their share of hero ball that doesn’t help and a propensity for bad threes..so who knows.) Bucks probably deserved the last two, but they were also given every advantage.
Wait....so these are all the favorable calls the Bucks got? You guys actually had me thinking I missed some things. Nearly every play Giannis gains an angle and uses his body to create contact as he’s exploding to the rim.....that’s like the very definition of a personal foul. The only missed one I see is when Tatum swiped at the ball and missed which at full speed looked like he got Giannis in the head......aside from that one every other one is a clear foul just as I thought when I watched live. If anything Giannis got jobbed in G2 on some similar plays that were let go.
I don't think any number of examples is going to change people's minds since it's all subjective. The Jaylen example is a clear non call to me, like it's not even a debate, yet others see a clear foul. I also think Weiss' article did a pretty fair look. I don't think it's realistic to ask a Bulls reporter to break this stuff down, I'm not sure why anything other than a C's/Bucks reporter would take the time.
I didn't have a huge issue with the officiating on Friday but you could have had Wyc and Danny blowing the whistles and the Celtics still would've lost. They couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat in that third quarter and they aren't beating Milwaukee by missing all their outside shots. Smart will help on the other end if he's able to play but it's curtains if Kyrie and Hayward don't break out on offense.
I completely agree on your first sentence.
On the rest, I don't think anyone should expect people beyond Bucks and Celtics fans to focus on the officiating. But if we are going to do an honest assessment of how we think the series is going, it probably needs to go beyond comparing perceptions in a Celtics forum on a Boston messageboard. Otherwise we are essentially in an echo chamber. Just my .02.
Agree with literally everything you said here.
Weiss’s article was a completely fair look. The posters disputing it haven’t looked at or read it and are just holding onto the fact that he writes about the Celtics.
Giannis aside, there's certainly an issue with the officiating so far this series. My eye test is that Kyrie simply isn't getting the calls when attacking the rim, and it's forcing him to settle for turnarounds and long jumpers. Meanwhile, the Bucks smaller players are getting those calls when they drive.
Take a look at Middleton, Bledsoe and Hill: They have combined for 55 two-point attempts in the first three games in this series. They have 30 combined FTAs.
Compare that to Kyrie: 43 two-point attempts, 12 free throws.
Take a look at Middleton, Bledsoe and Hill: They have combined for 55 two-point attempts in the first three games in this series. They have 30 combined FTAs.
Compare that to Kyrie: 43 two-point attempts, 12 free throws.
Lol you literally just said “and initiated contact” while defending these? Man.
We need to hire Morey to give us a report like he did for last year's game 7! Haha.
This call was egregious. I don’t think there is some grand conspiracy against the Celts by the refs but I think the refs have been mostly awful in this series and most of the other series too. There is little consistency and that’s my biggest complaint.
This maybe should be a topic for a new thread but i think the idea of "initiating contact" is the fundamental problem with the way the NBA is being called these days. I feel like those of us who grew up in a different era of basketball factor in some unstated idea of who initiated the contact being a part of whether or not you should get a foul call but that concept either never existed or has evaporated in the modern game. So much of what annoys me about Lebron, Giannis, Harden, etc is that they're often being rewarded for initiating contact with their defender. Lebron and Giannis use their off hand about as much as anyone in this league and then are rewarded when the defender has to use his body to combat with handchecking fouls. Both are huge guys who use their body to create space by throwing shoulders into defenders. If the defender caves hoping for an offensive foul they seldom get it (and certainly won't 3-4x a game) but if they try to stay strong and body they are called for fouls. Harden is another bucket of worms but I'll use him as a proxy for the silly landing zone rules where he's actively shooting and throwing himself into defenders to create contact and force a foul call. All of this is making the sport very, very difficult to watch because there's a basic fairness element at play. I wonder if the rules need to be enforced or supplemented to include this concept of who initiated the contact at least as a factor in foul/no foul because right now it seems to me to be totally out of whack.
In theory, the concept of basketball has always been that defenders have a right to the space they occupy. This is why we have charging fouls and the idea that a defender with hands straight up should not be called for a foul. Good defense has always been to move your feet and beat the offensive player to the spot. Theoretically at that point you could draw a charge. I think, though, that as the rules have been relaxed around crab dribbles/euro steps/jump steps and overall traveling, it has become increasingly impossible to truly beat an attacker to the spot. It's too easy for these guys to create contact while having essentially 360 degrees of possible movement now with the way rules are called.
For years I watched on as Paul Pierce did his little hesitate into a shot lean in and try to draw the foul move. It never stood out to me like the players today do because I think it was a little more honest than all this and he didn't always get the call but it was probably just as bad and I was probably biased. I will say that each year now I find myself watching less basketball and far more frustrated when I do watch because it's losing so much of what makes basketball interesting for me. I essentially quit the NFL (watched the super bowl and a couple playoff games due to family commitments) and the NBA is not far behind for me right now. Which is crazy for me because I was an absolute NBA junkie. It's always dangerous and usually irresponsible to project your feelings onto others so maybe it is just me and the NBA has no macro problem. But as someone who still plays old man basketball, coached it for years at the youth level, and never would have imagined choosing to watch something like the Bruins over a Celtics game, it's really hard to see where the sport is going from a competitive standpoint.
Great post, Teddy. To me this process got started with Shaq, who was allowed to bull his way to the basket (back to the hoop, crowding his way towards it). The refs never should have allowed it and he had the skills to score in other ways, but he consistently relied on his superior weight and strength to push people away. In my mind, that's not basketball.
Think about Shaq as a Patriots fan...you're arguing the other side of what we have all argued about Rob Gronkowski for years.
Being massive and strong has its advantages. The officials aren't going to (and also shouldn't) negate that.
Being massive and strong has its advantages. The officials aren't going to (and also shouldn't) negate that.
Adding Smart and Baynes into the mix tonight would raise the Celtics' competitiveness and toughness by a metric ton. I hope to see both.
Did you ever actually watch how Gronk was officiated? You may have a point, but looking to Gronk doesn’t support it...
Correct....that is a legal and effective form of drawing a foul versus an out of position defensive player. This is a skill that the best have mastered.....LeBron, Harden, and now Giannis at a young age.
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