Round 2: Celtics vs. Bucks

Who wins?


  • Total voters
    126
  • Poll closed .

Captaincoop

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A reminder about CoffeeNerdness's analytical level.
The way this place has always worked is that game threads are a place for immediate reactions, good or bad. Going to a game thread and pulling out quotes to try and shame posters is dirty pool. Also, it isn't moving the conversation forward in this thread. Let it go.
 

BigSoxFan

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All crucial times in the game but the bolded paragraph was just....inexcusable. The Celtics had - presumably, anyway - the three best players on the court during that stretch (Kyrie, Al, Hayward) and got abused by a total bench crew. That lead should have gone from +2 to +10. Instead it went from +2 to -8.

Infuriating.
Yup. Game was lost in that stretch. Just can’t happen. Spread should have gone the other way.
 

Captaincoop

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All crucial times in the game but the bolded paragraph was just....inexcusable. The Celtics had - presumably, anyway - the three best players on the court during that stretch (Kyrie, Al, Hayward) and got abused by a total bench crew. That lead should have gone from +2 to +10. Instead it went from +2 to -8.

Infuriating.
That was the game, in hindsight. I have no idea what Brad was thinking with that move.

And not only did he have three guards on the floor, but a couple of times during that stretch, Hill got himself matched up with Al Horford and blew by him for a score or a foul.

If you're going to have three guards on the floor, there should be no way that happens.

Ugh.
 

BaseballJones

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ESPN's Zach Lowe on the adjustments Milwaukee made after game 1.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/zachlowe26688005/giannis-bucks-reclaimed-juggernaut-status

Some interesting stuff in there. Also, he points out how Kyrie, despite not shooting well at all, actually made a lot of good and correct plays in the game but had nothing to show for it as Celtics' shooters bricked shot after shot. Lowe's words: "Irving will rightfully take a lot of heat for his performances in Boston. He took a lot of bad shots. But he also made a lot of good passes -- a lot of "make the right play" kickouts -- that Boston could not pay off in Game 4."

I'm sure the Celtics aren't just going to hand Milwaukee this series. I'm sure they believe if they can win game 5, they can win at home in game 6, and then who knows what can happen in a game 7 - and if they get there, they will already have beaten the Bucks 2 of 3 in Milwaukee. So they'll come out and play hard, I think. They ought - their season is on the line. And if they can knock down just a few more shots, they'll be right there with them.

But right now, obviously, it's not looking good.
 

Red Averages

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The way this place has always worked is that game threads are a place for immediate reactions, good or bad. Going to a game thread and pulling out quotes to try and shame posters is dirty pool. Also, it isn't moving the conversation forward in this thread. Let it go.
I love it. Almost like you can say whatever the hell you want without consequences?!?! Where do I sign up for this fantasy world where I can say terrible things about people and write it off as just being emotional?
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I love it. Almost like you can say whatever the hell you want without consequences?!?! Where do I sign up for this fantasy world where I can say terrible things about people and write it off as just being emotional?
SoSH. We've all made dumbass gamethread posts when things are going down the crapper. I agree that they don't been to be resurrected on the main board.
 

BigSoxFan

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SoSH. We've all made dumbass gamethread posts when things are going down the crapper. I agree that they don't been to be resurrected on the main board.
Agreed. Either put the poster on ignore or just ignore it. If it drags into a real thread, fair game to call posters out. But dragging game thread material out for the sole purpose of shaming is just, well, weird and a distraction.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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The fact that you think you're holding me to some sort of consequence here is hilarious. Thread policing and dredging up game thread posts to white knight for Jason Tatum's honor is weird tbh. I think he'll manage in life even with some random guy on the internet calling his game soft (lol at "terrible things' btw). Move on because this episode is far more embarrassing for you than any dumb game thread post.
 

crow216

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Hayward was 0-2 from 3P.

I know people are going to spend all summer ripping into this team but at the end of the day, maybe they just weren't good enough. The worst part is that last year, they were the underdogs who worked their tails off but this year, you gt the feeling that almost everyone on the team thought they were better than they actually were.
2017 vs 2018 Yankees
 

BaseballJones

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Hayward was 0-2 from 3P.

I know people are going to spend all summer ripping into this team but at the end of the day, maybe they just weren't good enough. The worst part is that last year, they were the underdogs who worked their tails off but this year, you gt the feeling that almost everyone on the team thought they were better than they actually were.
Well, I think WE all thought they were better than they actually were. This team just never got it together this year. It's not over yet - they still have to be knocked out and that hasn't happened yet - but man it's definitely one of the more disappointing seasons in recent memory, given the expectations.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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ESPN's Zach Lowe on the adjustments Milwaukee made after game 1.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/zachlowe26688005/giannis-bucks-reclaimed-juggernaut-status

Some interesting stuff in there. Also, he points out how Kyrie, despite not shooting well at all, actually made a lot of good and correct plays in the game but had nothing to show for it as Celtics' shooters bricked shot after shot. Lowe's words: "Irving will rightfully take a lot of heat for his performances in Boston. He took a lot of bad shots. But he also made a lot of good passes -- a lot of "make the right play" kickouts -- that Boston could not pay off in Game 4."

I'm sure the Celtics aren't just going to hand Milwaukee this series. I'm sure they believe if they can win game 5, they can win at home in game 6, and then who knows what can happen in a game 7 - and if they get there, they will already have beaten the Bucks 2 of 3 in Milwaukee. So they'll come out and play hard, I think. They ought - their season is on the line. And if they can knock down just a few more shots, they'll be right there with them.

But right now, obviously, it's not looking good.
I think the statement that their offense dictates their defense is correct. Here's another article that states the same thing: https://www.masslive.com/celtics/2019/05/boston-celtics-burned-by-milwaukee-bucks-runs-old-habits-again-in-game-4.html.

I only got to watch the first 1/2 of last night but they should have been way more at the end of the half. The biggest problem I have seen all year is that the Cs don't value possessions for whatever reason. Maybe, as I said above, they think they are better than they are. But they go through stretches where they take poor shots - early shots - and turn the ball over.

Of all the teams that are left in the playoffs, their best player is playing worse than any other team's best player. And their second-best player is getting outplayed by Middleton. That - and getting 7 points from the bench on 3-17 shooting - is a tough way to win.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Well, I think WE all thought they were better than they actually were. This team just never got it together this year. It's not over yet - they still have to be knocked out and that hasn't happened yet - but man it's definitely one of the more disappointing seasons in recent memory, given the expectations.
Agreed but we don't determine basketball games.

One thing that no one factored into this season is how much better the top teams in the East are than last year. Last year's team would have gotten swept by this year's MIL team and probably by this year's TOR team too.

MIL, TOR, and PHI all made dramatic leaps. This year's C's team is better than last year but for whatever reason, not by a lot. Particularly when the one thing it needs - superstar scoring - isn't happening.
 

Captaincoop

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ESPN's Zach Lowe on the adjustments Milwaukee made after game 1.

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/zachlowe26688005/giannis-bucks-reclaimed-juggernaut-status

Some interesting stuff in there. Also, he points out how Kyrie, despite not shooting well at all, actually made a lot of good and correct plays in the game but had nothing to show for it as Celtics' shooters bricked shot after shot. Lowe's words: "Irving will rightfully take a lot of heat for his performances in Boston. He took a lot of bad shots. But he also made a lot of good passes -- a lot of "make the right play" kickouts -- that Boston could not pay off in Game 4."

I'm sure the Celtics aren't just going to hand Milwaukee this series. I'm sure they believe if they can win game 5, they can win at home in game 6, and then who knows what can happen in a game 7 - and if they get there, they will already have beaten the Bucks 2 of 3 in Milwaukee. So they'll come out and play hard, I think. They ought - their season is on the line. And if they can knock down just a few more shots, they'll be right there with them.

But right now, obviously, it's not looking good.
I'll be pleasantly surprised if they do anything but fold up in game 5.

Nothing about the team this year and especially over the last three games and ESPECIALLY in the last 10 minutes of game 4 indicate that they're going to make a heroic stand.

Kyrie walking off the court early confirmed what an anti-Celtic he is. He's going down in the Wicks and Rowe section of Celtics history.
 

BaseballJones

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The 24% figure is astonishing. A team with Kyrie, Hayward, Brown, Horford, and Tatum should make a LOT more than 24% on uncontested, open, shots.
 

tbb345

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I'll be pleasantly surprised if they do anything but fold up in game 5.

Nothing about the team this year and especially over the last three games and ESPECIALLY in the last 10 minutes of game 4 indicate that they're going to make a heroic stand.

Kyrie walking off the court early confirmed what an anti-Celtic he is. He's going down in the Wicks and Rowe section of Celtics history.
Yup....I fully expect another 3rd quarter meltdown. However, as weve seen none of us have any idea with this team, so maybe the Celtics have one last swing in them that we don’t expect...I know we are all hoping and praying that they do
 

Captaincoop

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It felt like game 7 of the ECF last year. So many chances at a wide open, momentum-building three, and it felt like they missed them all.

Horford, Irving, Brown..I can picture about 6 of those opportunities last night, all wide open and all missed.
 

BaseballJones

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I'll be pleasantly surprised if they do anything but fold up in game 5.

Nothing about the team this year and especially over the last three games and ESPECIALLY in the last 10 minutes of game 4 indicate that they're going to make a heroic stand.

Kyrie walking off the court early confirmed what an anti-Celtic he is. He's going down in the Wicks and Rowe section of Celtics history.
They don't necessarily need to make a heroic stand...if they just shoot 40% on uncontested shots instead of 24%, they'll be right where they need to be. There's nothing "heroic" about making open jumpers - either they go in or they don't. I'm not saying it's totally random, but it's long been said that this is a make-or-miss league, and right now the Celtics are just plain missing. Badly. Those shots start falling and suddenly everything looks a lot better. Last night there were plenty of times on offense where they moved the ball well, penetrated and kicked, swung it around to wide open shooters and then....brick. So they did a lot of good things (plenty of bad things too, don't get me wrong) and didn't get results.

And I'm sorry - I know that Kyrie was 1-8 on uncontested shots (in 43 minutes), but he's the guy who HAS to be shooting them. Rozier and Smart played just over 25 combined minutes and went 1-11 on uncontested shots. Rozier and Smart just cannot be shooting that much. I'm sorry.
 

bosockboy

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It felt like game 7 of the ECF last year. So many chances at a wide open, momentum-building three, and it felt like they missed them all.

Horford, Irving, Brown..I can picture about 6 of those opportunities last night, all wide open and all missed.
Frankly it seems like they never recovered from game 7. Had a Finals appearance on their racket to serve out and blew it. Also wonder if Kyrie not being there was the beginning of the tension between him and rest of team.
 

lexrageorge

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The fundamental problem is that there is a significant talent gap between the two teams. You cannot deny the fact that the Bucks had the best record in the NBA this season, the league's best D-rating, and put a player on the floor that is head and shoulders above anyone the Celtics can put out there, including Kyrie. What's disappointing is that the Bucks seem to also have the 3rd, 4th, and 5th best players on the floor as well.
 

BaseballJones

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The fundamental problem is that there is a significant talent gap between the two teams. You cannot deny the fact that the Bucks had the best record in the NBA this season, the league's best D-rating, and put a player on the floor that is head and shoulders above anyone the Celtics can put out there, including Kyrie. What's disappointing is that the Bucks seem to also have the 3rd, 4th, and 5th best players on the floor as well.
They also have role players that are playing out of their minds.

George Hill
- Regular season: 20.4 min, 6.8 points, 42.8% FG
- Last 3 vs. Boston: 26.8 min, 15.3 points, 62.1% FG

Pat Connaughton
- Regular season: 20.7 min, 6.9 points, 46.6% FG, 4.2 reb
- Last 3 vs. Boston: 30.2 min, 9.3 points, 45.5% FG, 9.3 reb (!)
 

Captaincoop

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They also have role players that are playing out of their minds.

George Hill
- Regular season: 20.4 min, 6.8 points, 42.8% FG
- Last 3 vs. Boston: 26.8 min, 15.3 points, 62.1% FG

Pat Connaughton
- Regular season: 20.7 min, 6.9 points, 46.6% FG, 4.2 reb
- Last 3 vs. Boston: 30.2 min, 9.3 points, 45.5% FG, 9.3 reb (!)
Two of our Max contract/Min defense players have had a lot to do with that.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Jalen Rose on Get Up this morning: "He's done in Boston. And his teammates will help him pack"
I have generally been a Kyrie defender, and I think the reality in the NBA remains that you need apex-level players to win titles and he's the one definite apex-level guy they have (Horford, Tatum, etc. we can debate but Irving is definitely there). And I just don't think it's going to work.

Celtics have shown no grit this series; they just got flat beat last night, no refball or anything else. And worst of all, they again kind of lost focus in third/early fourth.

I don't have a lot of hope for these guys, and I think it's a really interesting question where the team goes from here. Tactically, for game 5, they need to get more from Irving and they need much better team defense. Hill will come back to earth, but Brogdon will come back as well so it can't just be hoping for regression.
 

128

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Hayward wasn't exceptional, but he was still plenty good in Game 1:

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401129114

What the hell happened? It's not as if the Bucks have made Hayward the focal point of their defensive effort.

After a number of really encouraging performances by Hayward, especially against the Pacers, this regression is really troubling.
 

Devizier

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Hayward wasn't exceptional, but he was still plenty good in Game 1:

http://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401129114

What the hell happened? It's not as if the Bucks have made Hayward the focal point of their defensive effort.

After a number of really encouraging performances by Hayward, especially against the Pacers, this regression is really troubling.
Hayward is completely unable to get to the paint against Milwaukee
 

tbrown_01923

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nobody is getting into the paint. They are both overplaying on the perimeter and then clogging the lane. They need to hit their open threes...
 

BaseballJones

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True, but I'd be delighted if he could hit open jump shots. He's been a disaster, and his confidence is shot.
If all they asked him to do was play decent defense and be a spot-up shooter, that would be fine at this point. But he's not even able to do that. Averaging around 30 minutes a game, he's 4-12 from three. That percentage isn't *terrible*, as he shot 33.3% from 3pt range this year and is a career 36.4% shooter from deep. But it's not enough takes, and not enough makes, and right now he's pretty useless. I get that he probably needs another offseason to be fully recovered from his injury, but in 26 minutes yesterday he took 5 shots, made just one of them, and had 3 rebounds, 0 assists, and 0 steals. He essentially did nothing at all.
 

NomarsFool

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Can the Celtics have a sit down talk about the long and/or contested 3 point shot attempts? Seriously. Even Gordon Hayward took a 3 from like 4 feet behind the line last night. He may have done that one other time all season that I can remember, but it doesn't seem to be his usual game. What the heck? Why do they think that is a good approach? Why does Rozier think he should be taking step-back 3's like he's James Harden? I've usually been a Kyrie fan, but the 3PA early in the shot clock - I just don't get. It's of course not the only thing that's hurting the team right now, but I think it's an easily correctable mistake. As has been pointed out, this team scores when they pass. Coming up the floor and launching a 3 with 18 seconds on the clock is just what they should be doing. It doesn't get players involved in the offense, and makes it tough on the defensive end as well.

It's also a shame what a complete non-factor Hayward has been since Game 1. He had been playing really well towards the end of the season and into Game 1, but he's been practically invisible since then. I'm also a bit frustrated that it seems like when the ball is in his hands, he is always dribbling backwards out to 8 feet past the line to begin whatever he is going to do, which this series has been to drive and then pass the ball out again (or miss). It just basically kills 1/3 of the shot clock for no reason, because those kick-out passes often don't result in an immediate shot. So, all we are doing is just wasting time.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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They actually had good ball movement last night and still missed the open shots. How many open 3's were missed by Horford and others at key moments? A lot.
Their ball movement went away in the second half as the Bucks made their run. The offense was scrambled and it resulted in heroball shots for many possessions.

Also, I need to look at the game data more closely but I think a lot of what were characterized as "open looks" were technically open but still weren't good shots. Part of that is Milwaukee's length as well as their ability to close out.
 

NomarsFool

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They actually had good ball movement last night and still missed the open shots. How many open 3's were missed by Horford and others at key moments? A lot.
Every miss hurts, I hear you. But Horford was 3-8 and Brown was 2-5. Those are decent percentages (38%)

The rest of the team was 4-28. That's 14%. Beyond pathetic.
 

RetractableRoof

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If all they asked him to do was play decent defense and be a spot-up shooter, that would be fine at this point. But he's not even able to do that. Averaging around 30 minutes a game, he's 4-12 from three. That percentage isn't *terrible*, as he shot 33.3% from 3pt range this year and is a career 36.4% shooter from deep. But it's not enough takes, and not enough makes, and right now he's pretty useless. I get that he probably needs another offseason to be fully recovered from his injury, but in 26 minutes yesterday he took 5 shots, made just one of them, and had 3 rebounds, 0 assists, and 0 steals. He essentially did nothing at all.
Off the cuff here, but the confusing part to me is the shooting. It was widely documented during his rehab that all he could do was shoot. I expected a lot of his recovery roller coaster but had high hopes for him to come back with a silky smooth shooting touch.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I talked to someone connected in the NBA today and he said basically the same thing.
See that is a bit more noteworthy than an NBA talking head who gets paid to generate content & get eyeballs, even if I love Jalen and know he has his sources.

That said, Ainge may still have a say in this situation.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Well, I think WE all thought they were better than they actually were. This team just never got it together this year. It's not over yet - they still have to be knocked out and that hasn't happened yet - but man it's definitely one of the more disappointing seasons in recent memory, given the expectations.
To start the season the Celtics were universally expected to be better than a 49-win team though. As Belichick would say, you are what your record says you are and over the course of 82-games this team showed us what they are as currently constructed......a 49-win team.

I think drawing the Pacers in the first round gave many false hope as even though we swept them we struggled with them all series. We aren’t at the Bucks level, we were decided underdogs in this series, and this begins with Giannis. If anything should be taken from this series is that acquiring Anthony Davis at the cost of Jayson Tatum is a necessity if you truly aspire to resch the Bucks class. It’s a top-tier talent league and we have way too much middling talent and not enough top-tier. I questioned Tatum’s touchness and upside in his thread several months ago......nothing has changed in that he still has too much Jeff Green and Rudy Gay in his game.
 

Captaincoop

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See that is a bit more noteworthy than an NBA talking head who gets paid to generate content & get eyeballs, even if I love Jalen and know he has his sources.

That said, Ainge may still have a say in this situation.
Weird stuff happens in the NBA, so I wouldn't 100% write it off. But we're probably looking at a rebuild/retool in the offseason.

Which is preferable to watching another season like this. If Danny can patch this thing together and add AD, I'd get right on board. But man, that looks improbable at this point.

Not only does Kyrie look like he wants out, but Tatum's value is likely down from where it was a few months ago.
 

Bleedred

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To start the season the Celtics were universally expected to be better than a 49-win team though. As Belichick would say, you are what your record says you are and over the course of 82-games this team showed us what they are as currently constructed......a 49-win team.

I think drawing the Pacers in the first round gave many false hope as even though we swept them we struggled with them all series. We aren’t at the Bucks level, we were decided underdogs in this series, and this begins with Giannis. If anything should be taken from this series is that acquiring Anthony Davis at the cost of Jayson Tatum is a necessity if you truly aspire to resch the Bucks class. It’s a top-tier talent league and we have way too much middling talent and not enough top-tier. I questioned Tatum’s touchness and upside in his thread several months ago......nothing has changed in that he still has too much Jeff Green and Rudy Gay in his game.
I think it was Parcells, not Belichick, but other than that, I don't have any major quibbles with this post.
 

RedOctober3829

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See that is a bit more noteworthy than an NBA talking head who gets paid to generate content & get eyeballs, even if I love Jalen and know he has his sources.

That said, Ainge may still have a say in this situation.
You actually think Jalen is just spewing stuff on the air to get clicks? I don't think that's his MO. A lot of other people on that network do that, but I don't think Jalen is going to throw stuff like that at the wall.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Frankly it seems like they never recovered from game 7. Had a Finals appearance on their racket to serve out and blew it. Also wonder if Kyrie not being there was the beginning of the tension between him and rest of team.
And, as another posted pointed out, largely in the same fashion: taking unnecessary jump shots and mismanaging possession time. I still have a hard time letting go all the blown shots Brown took that went for defensive rebounds and points the other way, though I've come to terms with the fact that it wasn't just him.

I think they were so amped up that the game was moving too fast for them and when Cleveland was hanging around and starting to chip away at the small lead, they sped up even more instead of slowing down, like every possession tried to be a fast break. I didn't see any of last night's game but it sounds like the third quarter issue is basically the same problem carried over. And, no, I don't think they recovered from that loss and the change in team chemistry with the return of Hayward (who probably needed more time) and Irving to the lineup really messed with the rhythm they had going. Tatum regressed since he was no longer the guy everything was running through and the role players got disgruntled because they knew they were better as a team when they were seeing the floor more often, or at least believed that (Rozier especially). And with Irving playing the reluctant superstar, they had no one to rally them more often than not. If they don't deal Tatum for Davis in the off-season, he needs to become the de facto leader or they need to find someone to be the general on the court.
 

BaseballJones

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Re: Tatum. It's tough to be dominant when there's a ball-dominant player on your team like Kyrie. Last year during the playoffs, here were his averages (when we all thought he was incredible):

35.9 min, 13.7 fga, 47.1% fg, 32.4% 3ptfg, 4.4 reb, 2.7 ast, 1.2 stl, 18.5 pts

His stats for these playoffs:

33.6 min, 12.8 fga, 45.1% fg, 32.1% 3ptfg, 6.8 reb, 1.9 ast, 1.3 stl, 15.4 pts

So it comes down to taking one more FG, shooting a tick higher, and then he'd be averaging almost the same stat line as last year.

The first series he averaged:
35.5 min, 14.3 fga, 50.9% fg, 53.3% 3ptfg, 5.5 reb, 1.5 ast, 1.3 stl, 19.3 pts

He had a bad first two games of this series, but they split on the road, so no harm, no foul. Then the last two games he's averaged:

36.1 min, 14.0 fga, 46.4% fg, 10.0% 3ptfg, 10.5 reb, 3.5 ast, 1.5 stl, 18.5 pts

So I don't really think Tatum is the problem here. The problem has been Kyrie and Hayward mostly. Rozier as well.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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You actually think Jalen is just spewing stuff on the air to get clicks? I don't think that's his MO. A lot of other people on that network do that, but I don't think Jalen is going to throw stuff like that at the wall.
Yes. Pierce is doing the same thing of late - and its the playbook that Barkley has been using for years.

I really like Rose and think he and Kenny Smith are the most measured of all the network pundits. But their job is to push narratives and ratchet up the drama around the series.

So while I don't doubt that Jalen heard something along those lines, I do question how reliable his source is and my .02 is that Rose has every incentive to share that view regardless of its validity.