Round 2: Celtics vs. Bucks

Who wins?


  • Total voters
    126
  • Poll closed .

Captaincoop

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Did you ever actually watch how Gronk was officiated? You may have a point, but looking to Gronk doesn’t support it...
The point is, the same fans who whined for a decade when teams were allowed to be extra physical to stop Gronk are arguing that the Celtics should be allowed to be extra physical to stop Giannis.

I am as guilty as anyone of the former. But with Giannis, I think you have to recognize that he is strong enough to finish through weak contact (Jayson Tatum, I'm looking at you) and he's rightfully going to get the call if you try and hammer him at the rim.

The C's need to body him up early and keep him from getting to the rim. When they've done that, he's shown that he will miss shots from even 5 feet away. That's what separates him from LeBron, IMO. LeBron would kill you from either spot.
 

Average Game James

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The point is, the same fans who whined for a decade when teams were allowed to be extra physical to stop Gronk are arguing that the Celtics should be allowed to be extra physical to stop Giannis.

I am as guilty as anyone of the former. But with Giannis, I think you have to recognize that he is strong enough to finish through weak contact (Jayson Tatum, I'm looking at you) and he's rightfully going to get the call if you try and hammer him at the rim.

The C's need to body him up early and keep him from getting to the rim. When they've done that, he's shown that he will miss shots from even 5 feet away. That's what separates him from LeBron, IMO. LeBron would kill you from either spot.
I won’t speak for the rest of the “whiners” but from this whiner’s perspective the issue is simply wanting the rules to apply the same to all players. He’s absolutely strong and skilled, but it’s frustrating as hell to watch him initiate hard contact with the elbow/shoulder, then pick up ticky tack fouls - he’s allowed a different level of contact than his defenders are permitted. I’m not saying let the Celtics mug him the way Gronk got mugged for years, just that if he’s allowed to be as physical as he is, the defender should be afforded the same right.

Also remember the NFL made a huge point of emphasis on OPI that was basically targeting Gronk who was the most targeted player for OPI the year they did that. Not only were teams allowed to mug Gronk, but the league actively emphasized trying to limit his dominance. Can you imagine the NBA making a similar point of emphasis on offensive fouls to the detriment of one of its stars?
 

teddykgb

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The point is, the same fans who whined for a decade when teams were allowed to be extra physical to stop Gronk are arguing that the Celtics should be allowed to be extra physical to stop Giannis.

I am as guilty as anyone of the former. But with Giannis, I think you have to recognize that he is strong enough to finish through weak contact (Jayson Tatum, I'm looking at you) and he's rightfully going to get the call if you try and hammer him at the rim.

The C's need to body him up early and keep him from getting to the rim. When they've done that, he's shown that he will miss shots from even 5 feet away. That's what separates him from LeBron, IMO. LeBron would kill you from either spot.
I don’t see the point in a cross sport comparison. Football has its own convoluted rules about contact legality and it’s not particularly relevant to Shaw or anyone else. In any case I’m not a Pats fan and never whines about Gronk.

I’m inclined to agree about Shaq for the same reason. He was definitely among the first who were allowed to bully people physically by just knocking them back without having many fouls called on him. The one major difference imo is that Shaq often just didn’t have a lot of fouls called on him. From memory he wasn’t living at the line as a result of his path of destruction. In the end, because he couldn’t be guarded within the rules teams started just wrapping him up to send him to the line because he was just gonna put defenders on their ass and dunk
 

PedroKsBambino

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I do not have time to find the links, apologies and I understand if that means people do not care to agree with my perspective that Game 3 third quarter officiating was egregious. I don't think rest of game was, but that mattered. I don't think GA cheats, and I certainly think fans over-generalize bad officiating and that HRB's ask for specific plays is both reasonable and the right way to assess officiating---it's specific calls not some general thing. Putting aside Donaghy, there's virtually never a game I watch that I think 'they might be on the take' but there also are games I watch where I think, with desire to do it well, officials have differential impact.

I did read the Weiss article in Athletic and would sign-on to all but one of his missed call assessments if that helps anyone. Certainly, the foul on Jaylen was the most ridiculous of them. Keep in mind when I'm saying 'blown call' I'm doing that relative to how calls are generally made in the NBA playoffs---I get that technically you can call any contact a foul. that, I think we should be able to agree, is not really the standard.

I do think part of the issue is that GA is physical and big and so when he goes hard to the rim there's contact. My issue in third quarter was that he got, as I recall, 3 fouls in a row where the replay showed minimal non-ball contact...and that can be ok if it is called similarly at both ends, but one one of the intervening possessions Kyrie went other way and got nothing. And I do think that the old college rule of who initiated the contact would make for a better way to referee guys like GA...but that is not precisely the NBA rule, as HRB notes.

I think the lack of a fine for Kyrie is a pretty clear sign the NBA saw it pretty much as I did, but people can disagree there too
 

tbb345

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The point is, the same fans who whined for a decade when teams were allowed to be extra physical to stop Gronk are arguing that the Celtics should be allowed to be extra physical to stop Giannis.

I am as guilty as anyone of the former. But with Giannis, I think you have to recognize that he is strong enough to finish through weak contact (Jayson Tatum, I'm looking at you) and he's rightfully going to get the call if you try and hammer him at the rim.

The C's need to body him up early and keep him from getting to the rim. When they've done that, he's shown that he will miss shots from even 5 feet away. That's what separates him from LeBron, IMO. LeBron would kill you from either spot.
I think you are misinterpreting what people are complaining about honestly.

I don't think people are complaining about the Celtics not getting to be extra physical with Giannis (at least I'm not and I don't think I've read anyone say that), people are complaining that Giannis is allowed to completely bulldoze people with his shoulder and elbow but is also getting ticky tack fouls in his favor.

I don't agree with your Gronk point (it's been litigated in the posts above me so I won't go too deep into it) but I know where you were coming from with it
 

tbb345

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I do not have time to find the links, apologies and I understand if that means people do not care to agree with my perspective that Game 3 third quarter officiating was egregious. I don't think rest of game was, but that mattered. I don't think GA cheats, and I certainly think fans over-generalize bad officiating and that HRB's ask for specific plays is both reasonable and the right way to assess officiating---it's specific calls not some general thing. Putting aside Donaghy, there's virtually never a game I watch that I think 'they might be on the take' but there also are games I watch where I think, with desire to do it well, officials have differential impact.

I did read the Weiss article in Athletic and would sign-on to all but one of his missed call assessments if that helps anyone. Certainly, the foul on Jaylen was the most ridiculous of them. Keep in mind when I'm saying 'blown call' I'm doing that relative to how calls are generally made in the NBA playoffs---I get that technically you can call any contact a foul. that, I think we should be able to agree, is not really the standard.

I do think part of the issue is that GA is physical and big and so when he goes hard to the rim there's contact. My issue in third quarter was that he got, as I recall, 3 fouls in a row where the replay showed minimal non-ball contact...and that can be ok if it is called similarly at both ends, but one one of the intervening possessions Kyrie went other way and got nothing. And I do think that the old college rule of who initiated the contact would make for a better way to referee guys like GA...but that is not precisely the NBA rule, as HRB notes.

I think the lack of a fine for Kyrie is a pretty clear sign the NBA saw it pretty much as I did, but people can disagree there too
100%.

I am actually going to take this a little further and say that I thought that Giannis was getting an incredibly favorable whistle the entire game. What made the 3rd Qrtr so frustrating was that it somehow got even more favorable for a stretch. Combined that with a few missed/wrong calls involving other Bucks and you could just feel the momentum/energy being sapped from both the crowd and the team.

I already said it earlier but I am going to repeat it and echo what you said at the end. The fact that Kyrie didn't get fined is about as concrete of evidence you are going to get that the powers that be in the NBA ultimately agree with our overall complaints
 

teddykgb

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I don't think the the NBA really cares about whether Kyrie was right or not in his criticism. I think he didn't get fined because he focused on how it slows the game down instead of it affecting the outcome and then didn't take the bait when asked later to go after the refs more. He equivocated and said they have a hard job and he's not going to blame them. Basically I think he walked the line well enough that the NBA decided not to bother.
 

InstaFace

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Think about Shaq as a Patriots fan...you're arguing the other side of what we have all argued about Rob Gronkowski for years.

Being massive and strong has its advantages. The officials aren't going to (and also shouldn't) negate that.
Gridiron football is a contact sport. Your size and strength are weapons.

Basketball is, in theory, a non-contact sport - non-incidental contact, under many conditions but not all, is a foul. You've compared apples and oranges. The sport shares some physical characteristics that provide an advantage, like height (for most types of NFL players), explosive straight-line acceleration, jump vertical, lateral stepping quickness, etc... aside from non-physical stuff like ability to read movements on the field/court and know where the space is going to be. But while raw strength is a major advantage for a DE, or TE, and it "matters" under some circumstances in basketball (e.g. trying to block a dunk/layup), it matters far less often and shouldn't matter nearly as often as it does.

Shaq "backing down" a player is taking the defender's space away from them by knocking them off of it, space to which they are entitled by the rules (and fairness, and watchability...). The officials let him do it, but "because he's big and strong" is not a valid justification in my eyes.
 

Captaincoop

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100%.

I am actually going to take this a little further and say that I thought that Giannis was getting an incredibly favorable whistle the entire game. What made the 3rd Qrtr so frustrating was that it somehow got even more favorable for a stretch. Combined that with a few missed/wrong calls involving other Bucks and you could just feel the momentum/energy being sapped from both the crowd and the team.

I already said it earlier but I am going to repeat it and echo what you said at the end. The fact that Kyrie didn't get fined is about as concrete of evidence you are going to get that the powers that be in the NBA ultimately agree with our overall complaints
The Celtics were on the bad end of some calls in that third quarter, but I felt like the bigger problem was how they reacted to it. Kyrie and Tatum in particular were whining about the previous play multiple times while the ball was in play and they needed to be focusing on playing offense.

The crowd got bogged down with it, too. The whole vibe in the building was defeatist and negative. Basically the opposite of what you want from a championship team.

It's time to move on and figure out how to change the tone of the series, because if the plan is just to get a better whistle, the Celtics are done.
 

Captaincoop

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Gridiron football is a contact sport. Your size and strength are weapons.

Basketball is, in theory, a non-contact sport - non-incidental contact, under many conditions but not all, is a foul. You've compared apples and oranges. The sport shares some physical characteristics that provide an advantage, like height (for most types of NFL players), explosive straight-line acceleration, jump vertical, lateral stepping quickness, etc... aside from non-physical stuff like ability to read movements on the field/court and know where the space is going to be. But while raw strength is a major advantage for a DE, or TE, and it "matters" under some circumstances in basketball (e.g. trying to block a dunk/layup), it matters far less often and shouldn't matter nearly as often as it does.

Shaq "backing down" a player is taking the defender's space away from them by knocking them off of it, space to which they are entitled by the rules (and fairness, and watchability...). The officials let him do it, but "because he's big and strong" is not a valid justification in my eyes.

I don't think it's worth going much further down the cross-sport comparison, but...

Contact by receivers and defenders downfield in football is even more restricted than contact between post players and their defenders in basketball. It's not an unreasonable comparison, and I think most defensive backs and receivers who played post-2003 in the NFL would disagree that size and strength are weapons in that situation, any more than they are in basketball.

The bottom line for me is that guys who are freakishly big and strong always present challenges to officials. Whether they call everything exactly the same for those guys, or try to take into account their natural advantages, some subset of fans is going to complain about it.

Giannis is going to get to the free throw line if the Celtics try and contest his shots at the rim. That's why it's so important to limit his chances to get to the rim in the first place. They've done it for stretches in this series, they need to keep trying.
 

PedroKsBambino

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The Celtics were on the bad end of some calls in that third quarter, but I felt like the bigger problem was how they reacted to it. Kyrie and Tatum in particular were whining about the previous play multiple times while the ball was in play and they needed to be focusing on playing offense.

The crowd got bogged down with it, too. The whole vibe in the building was defeatist and negative. Basically the opposite of what you want from a championship team.

It's time to move on and figure out how to change the tone of the series, because if the plan is just to get a better whistle, the Celtics are done.
I agree with that as well---they did let it get to them, and they need to stay focused during a must-win game tonight.

That is related to how bad, and consistent, the calls were as the game turned but that being true does not excuse the team losing focus. I commented I think in game thread that part of what makes Belichick great is that his teams (and he) NEVER let that happen to them. No matter what bad luck/bad calls happen they turn to the next play. That is a great example of the difference between their championship culture and this year's Celtics culture
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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This maybe should be a topic for a new thread but i think the idea of "initiating contact" is the fundamental problem with the way the NBA is being called these days. I feel like those of us who grew up in a different era of basketball factor in some unstated idea of who initiated the contact being a part of whether or not you should get a foul call but that concept either never existed or has evaporated in the modern game. So much of what annoys me about Lebron, Giannis, Harden, etc is that they're often being rewarded for initiating contact with their defender. Lebron and Giannis use their off hand about as much as anyone in this league and then are rewarded when the defender has to use his body to combat with handchecking fouls. Both are huge guys who use their body to create space by throwing shoulders into defenders. If the defender caves hoping for an offensive foul they seldom get it (and certainly won't 3-4x a game) but if they try to stay strong and body they are called for fouls. Harden is another bucket of worms but I'll use him as a proxy for the silly landing zone rules where he's actively shooting and throwing himself into defenders to create contact and force a foul call. All of this is making the sport very, very difficult to watch because there's a basic fairness element at play. I wonder if the rules need to be enforced or supplemented to include this concept of who initiated the contact at least as a factor in foul/no foul because right now it seems to me to be totally out of whack.

In theory, the concept of basketball has always been that defenders have a right to the space they occupy. This is why we have charging fouls and the idea that a defender with hands straight up should not be called for a foul. Good defense has always been to move your feet and beat the offensive player to the spot. Theoretically at that point you could draw a charge. I think, though, that as the rules have been relaxed around crab dribbles/euro steps/jump steps and overall traveling, it has become increasingly impossible to truly beat an attacker to the spot. It's too easy for these guys to create contact while having essentially 360 degrees of possible movement now with the way rules are called.

For years I watched on as Paul Pierce did his little hesitate into a shot lean in and try to draw the foul move. It never stood out to me like the players today do because I think it was a little more honest than all this and he didn't always get the call but it was probably just as bad and I was probably biased. I will say that each year now I find myself watching less basketball and far more frustrated when I do watch because it's losing so much of what makes basketball interesting for me. I essentially quit the NFL (watched the super bowl and a couple playoff games due to family commitments) and the NBA is not far behind for me right now. Which is crazy for me because I was an absolute NBA junkie. It's always dangerous and usually irresponsible to project your feelings onto others so maybe it is just me and the NBA has no macro problem. But as someone who still plays old man basketball, coached it for years at the youth level, and never would have imagined choosing to watch something like the Bruins over a Celtics game, it's really hard to see where the sport is going from a competitive standpoint.
Interesting post and not that I disagree with you but don't forget that the player movement rules were put into place in large part because of what went on in the early 2000s when defenders had the right to be as physical with offensive players as offensive players were with defensive players. Talk about tough to watch. Not only were those games more like wrestling matches but guys like Steph Curry would have never been able to play because they wouldn't have held up to the physical pounding that occurred when multiple fouls were being committed every play ("The refs can't call all of them!")

Yes, all of the rules changes/interpretations have gone to the offense in recent years. I too wonder what the game would look like if they did cut down on the number of steps that guys can take with the ball or having them go to the side or even under the ball while dribbling or as you state call them whenever they initiated contact. But the last thing I would want is for the game to go back to the early 2000s. Now that was bad basketball.
 

tbb345

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The Celtics were on the bad end of some calls in that third quarter, but I felt like the bigger problem was how they reacted to it. Kyrie and Tatum in particular were whining about the previous play multiple times while the ball was in play and they needed to be focusing on playing offense.

The crowd got bogged down with it, too. The whole vibe in the building was defeatist and negative. Basically the opposite of what you want from a championship team.

It's time to move on and figure out how to change the tone of the series, because if the plan is just to get a better whistle, the Celtics are done.
Absolutely! Completely agree with this. My criticism of the officials has always had the caveat that the celtics handled it terribly and allowed it to snowball.

I actually think that that was a good example of Brad’s policy of not engaging with the refs/complaining doing a disservice to the team. If blows up at a ref and gets a T, I think that signals to the team that it’s over and it’s time to focus (in addition to potentially galvanizing the team)
 

Red Averages

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Good news about this horrible schedule: Smart could definitely return for game 4.
Bad news: The disaster that is this thread with pages discussing officials to kill the down time.
 

benhogan

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Good news about this horrible schedule: Smart could definitely return for game 4.
Bad news: The disaster that is this thread with pages discussing officials to kill the down time.
More Good News: the early 7pm playoff start time has Giannis apologist HRB putting the house on the Celtics tonight
:drunk:
 

Jimbodandy

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The Celtics were on the bad end of some calls in that third quarter, but I felt like the bigger problem was how they reacted to it. Kyrie and Tatum in particular were whining about the previous play multiple times while the ball was in play and they needed to be focusing on playing offense.

The crowd got bogged down with it, too. The whole vibe in the building was defeatist and negative. Basically the opposite of what you want from a championship team.

It's time to move on and figure out how to change the tone of the series, because if the plan is just to get a better whistle, the Celtics are done.
I want to make love to this post.

Forcing Jaylen to sit after two ticky tack fouls while Kyrie and Tatum get much worse uncalled was infuriating. But that's not what changed the game. The players took themselves out of it. They lost their fight and embraced excuses. They need to fight through that shit
 

SemperFidelisSox

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This is one of the biggest games in recent Celtics history in terms of what direction the organization goes over the next 5-10years. Kyrie is likely gone if they go down 3-1 and get bounced in the second round.
 

BigSoxFan

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This is one of the biggest games in recent Celtics history in terms of what direction the organization goes over the next 5-10years. Kyrie is likely gone if they go down 3-1 and get bounced in the second round.
Either that or Tatum is gone and Ainge is convinced it’s worth taking a shot at the AD gamble because it’s the only way to keep Kyrie (just pure speculation, obviously).
 

lovegtm

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Either that or Tatum is gone and Ainge is convinced it’s worth taking a shot at the AD gamble because it’s the only way to keep Kyrie (just pure speculation, obviously).
To reiterate for the 100th time, Ainge only does that if Kyrie has said he’s re-signing. The timing is easy to work out.
 

BigSoxFan

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To reiterate for the 100th time, Ainge only does that if Kyrie has said he’s re-signing. The timing is easy to work out.
You have absolutely no idea what Ainge is thinking right now. And my assumption is he’s doing it with Kyrie’s consent, obviously.
 

NomarsFool

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The issue the league should be thinking about is that basketball, in the end, is entertainment. I know that they want stars, because in general, stars are entertaining. But, for me, GA's brand of basketball is completely boring. How can anyone get excited about someone charging down the lane, bumping into people, not making the basket, and then hitting 1 of 2 free throws? ZZZZZZZZ It may be effective, but it is not entertainment. Obviously, he is just one player and one player a league does not make. But, if this style of play starts to be emulated by others (because it does seem to be effective), it's not entertaining.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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You can't win in the playoffs just firing up heroball shots on offense and not playing any help defense. There is no excuse for letting guys like Bledsoe and an ancient George Hill get whatever they want. The final ~18 minutes of game four, the team devolved into a bunch of mercenaries who really revealed this year's squad's true character. Its inescapable that this team has major chemistry issues.
 

Rook05

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Credit to the Bucks for completely eliminating Hayward. I know Kyrie’s efficiency will get most of the headlines but this team needed something—anything—out of Hayward. Tatum and Brown brought some aggression but nobody could consistently slice into their D.
 

BigSoxFan

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You can't win in the playoffs just firing up heroball shots on offense and not playing any help defense. There is no excuse for letting guys like Bledsoe and an ancient George Hill get whatever they want. The final ~18 minutes of game four, the team devolved into a bunch of mercenaries who really revealed this year's squad's true character. Its inescapable that this team has major chemistry issues.
Yup. We all wished and hoped they would figure it out but they never did. A 4-1 second round loss is basically how this season deserved to end. Milwaukee is the better team but the gap shouldn’t have been this big.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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Losing the 3rd quarter by 10 when both Giannis and Middleton missed over half the quarter with 4 fouls was basically the beginning of the end for the series.
 

BaseballJones

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The Celtics had a LOT of open looks tonight and couldn't make squat.

Kyrie: 7-22, 1-7
Hayward: 1-5, 0-0
Smart: 1-7, 1-7
Rozier: 1-5, 0-3

These four combined to go 10-39 (25.6%), 2-17 (11.8%) from three. Gross.
 

lovegtm

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You can't win in the playoffs just firing up heroball shots on offense and not playing any help defense. There is no excuse for letting guys like Bledsoe and an ancient George Hill get whatever they want. The final ~18 minutes of game four, the team devolved into a bunch of mercenaries who really revealed this year's squad's true character. Its inescapable that this team has major chemistry issues.
Yeah, it’s too bad, because I have immense respect for Kyrie’s talent, and he’s a really fun guy to watch. However, it’s hard to watch and not think he’s a chemistry nightmare. Sucks that they’ll likely lose him for nothing, but I’d have more fun rooting for a Pacers-type team that at least had balls.
 

chilidawg

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Losing the 3rd quarter by 10 when both Giannis and Middleton missed over half the quarter with 4 fouls was basically the beginning of the end for the series.
My feeling exactly. They couldn't take advantage and then just folded down the stretch.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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The Celtics had a LOT of open looks tonight and couldn't make squat.

Kyrie: 7-22, 1-7
Hayward: 1-5, 0-0
Smart: 1-7, 1-7
Rozier: 1-5, 0-3

These four combined to go 10-39 (25.6%), 2-17 (11.8%) from three. Gross.
They shot a ton of those shots early in the clock and some of them weren't entirely open. They had very little ball movement for most of the third and fourth quarters.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The Celtics had a LOT of open looks tonight and couldn't make squat.

Kyrie: 7-22, 1-7
Hayward: 1-5, 0-0
Smart: 1-7, 1-7
Rozier: 1-5, 0-3

These four combined to go 10-39 (25.6%), 2-17 (11.8%) from three. Gross.
Hayward was 0-2 from 3P.

I know people are going to spend all summer ripping into this team but at the end of the day, maybe they just weren't good enough. The worst part is that last year, they were the underdogs who worked their tails off but this year, you gt the feeling that almost everyone on the team thought they were better than they actually were.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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The issue the league should be thinking about is that basketball, in the end, is entertainment. I know that they want stars, because in general, stars are entertaining. But, for me, GA's brand of basketball is completely boring. How can anyone get excited about someone charging down the lane, bumping into people, not making the basket, and then hitting 1 of 2 free throws? ZZZZZZZZ It may be effective, but it is not entertainment. Obviously, he is just one player and one player a league does not make. But, if this style of play starts to be emulated by others (because it does seem to be effective), it's not entertaining.
This is, to me, a crazy take. The talent in the league is unprecedented. Giannis is one of the most entertaining players of the last 25 years. He, no pun intended, is a freak. I feel privileged to watch players like him play.
 

benhogan

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Kyrie/Gordon vanishing act has been a big reason for this teams failure the last 3 games.
ALSO
This team can't get a stop in the 2nd half for the 3rd straight game. Bucks scoring in 2nd half:
Game 2: 64pts
Game 3: 68pts
Game 4: 66pts

The Bucks Game 1 failure was answered by Coach Bud going bigger (less Brown, more Mirotic). CBS has failed to adjust for 3 straight games. Brad going small in the 2nd half tonight was once again a disaster as it has been all season long.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Hayward was 0-2 from 3P.

I know people are going to spend all summer ripping into this team but at the end of the day, maybe they just weren't good enough. The worst part is that last year, they were the underdogs who worked their tails off but this year, you gt the feeling that almost everyone on the team thought they were better than they actually were.
This is probably the bitter truth. However I would add that the Bucks have played spectacular defense on Boston all series in keeping with their league-leading defense all season. At least part of the Celtics struggle on offense is a function of the Bucks playing physical defense, rotating/helping and forcing Boston into bad shots. In short Budenholzer and his staff have done a great job in exploiting the Celtics offensive tendencies.

Boston has one more game - they have a fighting chance if they can go back to ball movement and trying to find windows to take the ball inside (easier said than done against the Bucks length). On defense, they need to rotate and help, especially with guys like Hill and Bledsoe. Those guys cannot get open looks like they have had the past two games. Unlike defending Giannis or even Middleton, the rest of the Buck rotation can absolutely be defended better.

I don't expect anyone else to have faith with me on Wednesday but they can still win that game, especially if Smart can give them more now that he's seen a bit of action.
 

TripleOT

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Jul 4, 2007
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I was at the game tonight and came away thinking how stupidly this team plays.

The Celtics went up 11 when Tatum hit two Fts with 6.3 seconds left in the first. Brad inserts Semi for defensive purposes. The Cs left Hill drive to the hoop on the left side of their defense, and Semi leaves Connaughton in the opposite side of where Hill started his drive, and the Bucks make a big three at the buzzer to cut the lead to 8.

The Bucks reel off five straight points to make it a one possession game to start the second quarter, when the Cs miss two wide open jumpers, Al clangs an easy 8 footer, and Brown commits a stupid offensive foul. Lead squandered in a game where the Celtics really needed to frontrun.

The Celtics again push the lead to 8 in the second quarter, and let the Bucks tie the game up when they clang three consecutive three pointers, with Kyrie turning it over twice and missing a 10 footer during their run. The Bucks picked up three fouls early in the second, and a smart team, with quickness advantages in many spots, would have been driving to the hoop instead of hoisting brick threes. The Bucks turn an 8 point deficit into a 4 point lead in 3:22.

Third quarter, 4:12 left, Middleton and GA on the bench with 4, Celtics up 2. The Bucks have Illy, Lopez, Connaughton, Hill and Sterling Brown on the court.. Boston had KI, AL, GH, Smart and, for some reason Rozier against them. Boston makes only one bucket the rest of the way, with 6 Kyrie Fts. At one point, this scrub Bucks lineup makes six baskets in a row, interrupted only by two Kyrie FTs, and the Bucks run out to an 8 point lead they would not relinquish. Most egregious was Smart getting a top three pointer blocked by Connaughton, who runs out for a thunderous dunk. Hill has 9 points and an assist in this game turning run.

The Celtics start the fourth by fouling a three point shooter, then give up a GA layup, 2 FTS when GA fouled on a layup, a GA and-1 layup, a Mirotic layup, and a Bledsoe layup in the first five minutes of the quarter. Lopez banged a big three pointer to go up 8 after a Boston mini-run, and a GA and-1 off an offensive rebound pushed the lead to 11 and ended it. Layup, dunk, layup, layup layup 2 fts, and-1 layup, FTs. The entire quarter, the Bucks put up 33 points and made exactly ONE shot that wasn't a layup. A good team cannot allow a layup line in the fourth quarter at home in a crucial Game 4.
 

Imbricus

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Jan 26, 2017
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No one has mentioned this yet, but physically, Kyrie looked terrible last night. Did you see his face? It's like the guy hadn't slept in four days. He also seemed to be laboring for breath after relatively little effort. Then he got called for two stupid travels. They were really bad and obvious; the first one he even took a little jump in the air. It was like he was half-delirious.
 

Devizier

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The Bucks are just better. They have pretty much completely denied the paint and the Celtics aren't able to shoot well enough to punish them for it. Long misses leading to long rebounds, leading to transition points, good night. I picked Bucks in six, but it's hard to see this one going past five at this point.
 

benhogan

Baynes Hogan
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Nov 2, 2007
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No one has mentioned this yet, but physically, Kyrie looked terrible last night. Did you see his face? It's like the guy hadn't slept in four days. He also seemed to be laboring for breath after relatively little effort. Then he got called for two stupid travels. They were really bad and obvious; the first one he even took a little jump in the air. It was like he was half-delirious.
Yes, I mentioned the same in the game thread. Something looked off w/Kyrie, and I don't mean the missed shots. He just looked like he was going through the motions, expressionless, tired, withdrawn. Maybe it was frustration? I've seen him enough over the years to see when he is engaged, more then the missed shots, it showed up with his lack of defense against Hill, Connaughton or Bledsoe.

I guess the answer will be to credit the Bucks defense/offense. BUT if Kyrie bolts in FA, part of me will feel that he checked out in this series.
 
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tbrown_01923

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Sep 29, 2006
404
two things to me 1. the bucks are playing better (or at least to plan) and 2. are a more physically mature team. Neither Tatum nor Brown are strong enough yet to be at that next level. Even on some of their makes I was surprised they were able to complete.

Time will tell on Kyrie - i hope he didn't check out. Not that I am a Kyrie fanboy but it would be a disappointing end.
 

reggiecleveland

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Yes, I mentioned the same in the game thread. Something looked off w/Kyrie, and I don't mean the missed shots. He just looked like he was going through the motions, expressionless, tired, withdrawn. Maybe it was frustration? I've seen him enough over the years to see when he is engaged, more then the missed shots, it showed up with his lack of defense against Hill, Connaughton or Bledsoe.

I guess the answer will be to credit the Bucks defense/offense. BUT if Kyrie bolts in FA, part of me will feel that he checked out in this series.
Whether he is hurt or just not good enough I want him to go. It also may be like you said mentally he was gone.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Jun 6, 2012
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The contrast in back up PG play is pretty stark. Hill is boring but he's also got a good hoops IQ, can hit a timely 3, will take what the defense gives him i.e. he can blow by our lackluster defense when he needs to, and plays solid D. Rozier on the other hand can barely dribble a basketball, is a brick artist from behind the arc, and wouldn't know a good shot if it came up to him and offered him a max contract.

Ainge and Stevens had plenty of time to analyze how this kid has been playing over the course of the year and here we are and he's still getting important minutes in the biggest games of the year. I'd rather see Wanamaker out there at this point because at the very least he can at least dribble the basketball and won't huck up contested 3s with 19 seconds left on the shot clock. Stevens keeps pulling the lever on the Terry Rozier slot machine and losing his quarters over and over.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Wtf is your deal brother? That was a game thread post after a few beers and being pissed this team was flushing away the season. Get outta here with that clown shit. Address this post or stfu.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
5,225
I was at the game tonight and came away thinking how stupidly this team plays.

The Celtics went up 11 when Tatum hit two Fts with 6.3 seconds left in the first. Brad inserts Semi for defensive purposes. The Cs left Hill drive to the hoop on the left side of their defense, and Semi leaves Connaughton in the opposite side of where Hill started his drive, and the Bucks make a big three at the buzzer to cut the lead to 8.

The Bucks reel off five straight points to make it a one possession game to start the second quarter, when the Cs miss two wide open jumpers, Al clangs an easy 8 footer, and Brown commits a stupid offensive foul. Lead squandered in a game where the Celtics really needed to frontrun.

The Celtics again push the lead to 8 in the second quarter, and let the Bucks tie the game up when they clang three consecutive three pointers, with Kyrie turning it over twice and missing a 10 footer during their run. The Bucks picked up three fouls early in the second, and a smart team, with quickness advantages in many spots, would have been driving to the hoop instead of hoisting brick threes. The Bucks turn an 8 point deficit into a 4 point lead in 3:22.

Third quarter, 4:12 left, Middleton and GA on the bench with 4, Celtics up 2. The Bucks have Illy, Lopez, Connaughton, Hill and Sterling Brown on the court.. Boston had KI, AL, GH, Smart and, for some reason Rozier against them. Boston makes only one bucket the rest of the way, with 6 Kyrie Fts. At one point, this scrub Bucks lineup makes six baskets in a row, interrupted only by two Kyrie FTs, and the Bucks run out to an 8 point lead they would not relinquish. Most egregious was Smart getting a top three pointer blocked by Connaughton, who runs out for a thunderous dunk. Hill has 9 points and an assist in this game turning run.

The Celtics start the fourth by fouling a three point shooter, then give up a GA layup, 2 FTS when GA fouled on a layup, a GA and-1 layup, a Mirotic layup, and a Bledsoe layup in the first five minutes of the quarter. Lopez banged a big three pointer to go up 8 after a Boston mini-run, and a GA and-1 off an offensive rebound pushed the lead to 11 and ended it. Layup, dunk, layup, layup layup 2 fts, and-1 layup, FTs. The entire quarter, the Bucks put up 33 points and made exactly ONE shot that wasn't a layup. A good team cannot allow a layup line in the fourth quarter at home in a crucial Game 4.
All crucial times in the game but the bolded paragraph was just....inexcusable. The Celtics had - presumably, anyway - the three best players on the court during that stretch (Kyrie, Al, Hayward) and got abused by a total bench crew. That lead should have gone from +2 to +10. Instead it went from +2 to -8.

Infuriating.