Rookie hazing & bullying: Miami guard Incognito indefinitely suspended

soxfanSJCA

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I Have to add to the accolades for Soxfan121's posts- a superb share that I appreciate a great deal.
 
The axiom that we are each responsible for what we speak, write, or act is pertinent to RI's self-inflicted shit storm.
The words, the extortion, the threats, are simply indefensible now that they are out for the general public.
 
Perhaps it is NFL culture to be violent and to demean and extort and threaten it wouldn't surprise me in any way,  but that still does not make it ok.
RI did not make one mistake, he has made an absolute parade of serious mistakes.
The most recent one, in my opinion the death knell, is that he has not apologized.
 
There is a cost for being unaware of others' response to your words, or deeds.
Sometimes the cost is small, and sometimes the cost is huge.
The part people struggle with, and RI seems to continue to struggle with, is that RI does not get to decide other peoples responses.
RI is no longer in his tiny little sphere of influence in which he is seemingly unchecked (and even actively supported).
RI is now in an absolutely powerless position of public and legal scrutiny.
He is fucked, and he is responsible for it.
 
Were I RI's (newly hired) PR firm, he would have solemnly apologized in front of as many cameras as possible.
He would apologize to Martin, his family, The Dolphins and the fans.
He would be holding a giant check for the half-n foundation (?) and another giant check for the slapped mothers foundation (?)
 
He would then announce he will be in hillbilly rehab for the next 30 days, followed 30 days later  by a
PR marathon on every daytime TV talk show in which he tells "his side of the story", which is that he "was"
an unaware asshole, who hurt a lot of people, and now he has learned to communicate nonviolently and is extremely sorry.
If possible, Martin would come out, and they would hug, and a montage of them fishing, or playing gin rummy would play and everyone
would clap and some would cry.
 
It is the proven formula which slowly revs down the shit storm.
 
It is the healthy people that leave sick systems- good for Martin for leaving.
I am not surprised that people blame Martin in this way or that way- but at what point do we stop deciding how someone "should" react to an experience?
 
I was so fucking distraught after the Jets game, because it was a fucking debacle the pats should have won, it felt like a 12 hour long gut punch. 
Someone not on this board, might think that my reaction was completely invalid because it was "just a game"...
 

lambeau

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I agree with those who say this just keeps getting crazier. All the Dolphins (AND Ben Volin) are saying: why's Martin throwing Richie under the bus? They seem truly puzzled.
 
Yet Martin seems like the last guy to hurt anybody. So Volin comes up with a financial motive, which also seems unlike Martin. Why are the Dolphins so puzzled?
 

singaporesoxfan

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Another crazy turn:

Per multiple league sources, Dolphins G.M. Jeff Ireland received a call from Martins agent, Rick Smith, before Martin left the team on October 28. Smith complained to Ireland about the manner in which Incognito was treating Martin.

Ireland, according to the sources, suggested to Smith that Martin physically confront Incognito. Ireland specifically mentioned that Martin should punch Incognito.
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/11/06/sources-ireland-suggested-that-martin-confront-incognito-physically/
 

PBDWake

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Is it just me or are people missing the obvious when they make the financial arguments?

I mean, they're saying it's an excuse to get paid, in all essence. But isn't it just as likely, or even more so, that not getting paid made him lose his only motivation to keep silent?
 

Wade Boggs Hair

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sodenj5 said:
Omar Kelly updates after speaking to players in the locker room with several interesting quotes:


http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-78081567/

Hartline also had this quote that can be found on Kelly's twitter:


And this quote from Randy Starks
 
 
You want so badly for this to turn out a very specific, rather unlikely way that part of me is rooting for it for you.  KFTC.
 
But, as a disinterested observer drawn to this thread by posts like soxfan's, the most socially-productive outcome in my mind is for the hammer to drop on the Dolphins players and personnel involved, for Martin to be respected for walking away and not handling things "like a man," and for this skidmark on the 24-hour news cycle's underpants to crystallize as a teaching moment that discourages bullying in athletics, schools, and workplaces.
 
Of course, Fox Sports 1 ran on its ticker this evening that "Martin's 'mental health issues' didn't appear in his pre-draft profile."  Damn those scouts!
 

Gdiguy

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singaporesoxfan said:
If Ireland was actually stupid enough to say this, and even more stupid enough to say it and have it recorded (which I'm suspecting is possible, since I don't think espn would also report this unless it's more than just 'his agent says so'), Miami has just sealed their fate - there's no way the nfl can let this stand as acceptable for a GM (even though they may all think it is), there's way too much culpability it opens the dolphins up to for them to not act.

I can't wait for the next thing to leak tomorrow
 

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PBDWake said:
Is it just me or are people missing the obvious when they make the financial arguments?

I mean, they're saying it's an excuse to get paid, in all essence. But isn't it just as likely, or even more so, that not getting paid made him lose his only motivation to keep silent?
 
 
Aren't they one in the same? Ireland backed Martin into a corner by putting him on the NFI list. There is no way Martin was going to put up with being both picked on and essentially suspended. The only response he had at that point was to give the evidence to management and ESPN simultaneously and shame the Dolphins into keeping him active. The fact that all of the players (and probably some of the lower level coaches) knew about the VM and texts  and though they were no big deal probably is the link to Ireland being blindsided by the transcripts of the VMs and the three different messages that came out of Dolphins headquarters last Sunday. 
 
I am under the impression that all good GMs have spies in the locker room to keep them informed on the ground floor reality around the team and the coaches. Either Ireland doesn't use this technique or his spies had Stockholm Syndrome.
 

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PBDWake

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Gunfighter 09 said:
 
 
Aren't they one in the same? Ireland backed Martin into a corner by putting him on the NFI list. There is no way Martin was going to put up with being both picked on and essentially suspended. The only response he had at that point was to give the evidence to management and ESPN simultaneously and shame the Dolphins into keeping him active. The fact that all of the players (and probably some of the lower level coaches) knew about the VM and texts  and though they were no big deal probably is the link to Ireland being blindsided by the transcripts of the VMs and the three different messages that came out of Dolphins headquarters last Sunday. 
 
I am under the impression that all good GMs have spies in the locker room to keep them informed on the ground floor reality around the team and the coaches. Either Ireland doesn't use this technique or his spies had Stockholm Syndrome.
 
Not exactly. The former (Funny how it only gets mentioned when he's about to lose pay!) implies that he wasn't really a victim or aggrieved party, and that he's simply a bad football player trying to find ways to keep latched on to a paycheck. The latter (Well, I no longer have a reason to keep quiet) is more of "I was in a terrible situation, but the only thing I could do to keep getting my paycheck was keep my head down and go with it" situation. One implies the victim is a fraud, the other that he had no more reasons to cover for the organization.
 

sodenj5

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Wade Boggs Hair said:
 
You want so badly for this to turn out a very specific, rather unlikely way that part of me is rooting for it for you.  KFTC.
 
When this story first broke, you can check the Dolphins thread, I said I was disappointed in RI because he had seemingly turned his life around and become a leader on the team.

When the mob started forming, I suggested that maybe, just maybe, there was something other than a black and white case of bullying. Maybe there was something going on behind the scenes that hadn't come out yet. I didn't try to make excuses for his behavior, I just kept trying to push across the point that it seemed really strange that an entire organization can be caught off guard by something like this, and that Philbin ignoring or trying to cover something like this up seemed very out of character for him.

By that point it was too late. Incognito was already a racist bully. Joe Philbin was already a failure of a head coach that should be fired. The Dolphins organization was already a joke of an organization devoid of leadership. The pitchforks were out and the torches were lit.

For having an opinion that went against the grain, I was called "fucking idiotic" and it was suggested that I should "stay away from children." Being a Dolphins fan on a Red Sox/primarily NE message board, I've taken my fair share of shit. I felt like some of this was over the top.

I feel like all of these recent plot twists and turns have already proven my point that there is, in fact, SOMETHING going on behind the scenes that was not initially reported. I wouldn't say that I'm rooting for this to turn out one way or another. I do feel slightly vindicated by these recent developments though.
 

Average Reds

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dcmissle said:
Life can be complicated. The conduct at issue can be very objectionable AND Martin could be shaking the team down.

But like Tomase of the Herald on the morning of the 2007 SB, a lot of people are uninterested in vetting and very interested in rushing to judgment.
 
How is pushing the "shakedown theory" any less of a rush to judgment than the very things you and sodenj5 are complaining about?
 

Shelterdog

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When this story first broke, you can check the Dolphins thread, I said I was disappointed in RI because he had seemingly turned his life around and become a leader on the team.

When the mob started forming, I suggested that maybe, just maybe, there was something other than a black and white case of bullying. Maybe there was something going on behind the scenes that hadn't come out yet. I didn't try to make excuses for his behavior, I just kept trying to push across the point that it seemed really strange that an entire organization can be caught off guard by something like this, and that Philbin ignoring or trying to cover something like this up seemed very out of character for him.

By that point it was too late. Incognito was already a racist bully. Joe Philbin was already a failure of a head coach that should be fired. The Dolphins organization was already a joke of an organization devoid of leadership. The pitchforks were out and the torches were lit.

For having an opinion that went against the grain, I was called "fucking idiotic" and it was suggested that I should "stay away from children." Being a Dolphins fan on a Red Sox/primarily NE message board, I've taken my fair share of shit. I felt like some of this was over the top.

I feel like all of these recent plot twists and turns have already proven my point that there is, in fact, SOMETHING going on behind the scenes that was not initially reported. I wouldn't say that I'm rooting for this to turn out one way or another. I do feel slightly vindicated by these recent developments though.
Why don't you spell out what you think the mob is wrong?
 

Average Reds

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sodenj5 said:
When this story first broke, you can check the Dolphins thread, I said I was disappointed in RI because he had seemingly turned his life around and become a leader on the team.

When the mob started forming, I suggested that maybe, just maybe, there was something other than a black and white case of bullying. Maybe there was something going on behind the scenes that hadn't come out yet. I didn't try to make excuses for his behavior, I just kept trying to push across the point that it seemed really strange that an entire organization can be caught off guard by something like this, and that Philbin ignoring or trying to cover something like this up seemed very out of character for him.

By that point it was too late. Incognito was already a racist bully. Joe Philbin was already a failure of a head coach that should be fired. The Dolphins organization was already a joke of an organization devoid of leadership. The pitchforks were out and the torches were lit.

For having an opinion that went against the grain, I was called "fucking idiotic" and it was suggested that I should "stay away from children." Being a Dolphins fan on a Red Sox/primarily NE message board, I've taken my fair share of shit. I felt like some of this was over the top.

I feel like all of these recent plot twists and turns have already proven my point that there is, in fact, SOMETHING going on behind the scenes that was not initially reported. I wouldn't say that I'm rooting for this to turn out one way or another. I do feel slightly vindicated by these recent developments though.
 
You have not been criticized for asking people not to rush to judgment. You have been criticized for posting lots of gossip and innuendo designed to shift blame from the team or Incognito to Martin.  And for pushing the theory that Martin has been trying to shake down the team while proclaiming that those taking a contrary position are part of a mob wanting to tear down the Dolphins. 
 
For the record, I'm not a Patriots fan.  Before this had happened I had no idea who Martin, Incognito and almost all of the characters down in Miami were.  I did meet Steve Ross once in Ann Arbor years ago, so there's that.
 
I get that you feel persecuted for taking an unpopular position, but you need to consider the possibility that that you are being criticized because some of the things you are posting are simply offensive.
 

AlNipper49

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Yeah, I don't even think that it's an unpopular opinion that people are rushing to judgement here. Events like this seem to spawn parallelized conversations about the topic because people unfortunately need events like this to talk about difficult subjects. There is nothing wrong with the two, except when the simple minded get caught up in having to be 'right', 'wrong' or needing the event to fit into some horribly narcissistic world view typically with a Hollywood ending. The same thing happened with Trayvon Martin.

The two take aways is that these discussions can be good (s121) and that for done reason Florida is a weird place.
 

sodenj5

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Average Reds said:
 
You have not been criticized for asking people not to rush to judgment. You have been criticized for posting lots of gossip and innuendo designed to shift blame from the team or Incognito to Martin.  And for pushing the theory that Martin has been trying to shake down the team while proclaiming that those taking a contrary position are part of a mob wanting to tear down the Dolphins. 
 
For the record, I'm not a Patriots fan.  Before this had happened I had no idea who Martin, Incognito and almost all of the characters down in Miami were.  I did meet Steve Ross once in Ann Arbor years ago, so there's that.
 
I get that you feel persecuted for taking an unpopular position, but you need to consider the possibility that that you are being criticized because some of the things you are posting are simply offensive.
If by gossip and innuendo you mean quotes from players and stories from reporters, then you got me. Everyone else keeps posting all of the" pro-Martin" information, I felt I had to be the voice for the very small "pro-Dolphins" camp. Not that there is a right or wrong in this situation, I just felt everyone was way too quick to bring down a shitstorm of judgement based on some initial details that came out.

If I've offended anyone in the process, my sincere apologies. That was never my intent.
 

jose melendez

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I'm sort of fascinated and horrified but what appears to be the closing of NFL ranks around Incognito.
 
The key to the message appears to be that this is normal stuff to anyone in an NFL locker room and that it is participated in universally  including by Martin.  The claim is that hazing, pranks and casual use of the N word are pretty normal and widely tolerated.  If this is the case, and I suspect that it is, it provides pretty remarkable support for the notion (which enraged Tom Jackson) that the NFL exists outside the rules of normal society.  I can't think of a single corporate environment where using the N-word, even among friends, is appropriate business behavior, nor can I think of any professional environment where requiring new employees to pay for extravagant meals for old employees, or stealing the cars of new employees would be regarded as at best fireable at worst criminal.
 
This is a big problem for the NFL.  What this whole fiasco is revealing is that the NFL culture basically exists outside the norms of regular society (not that surprising) and probably outside the law.
 

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jose melendez said:
I'm sort of fascinated and horrified but what appears to be the closing of NFL ranks around Incognito.
 
The key to the message appears to be that this is normal stuff to anyone in an NFL locker room and that it is participated in universally  including by Martin.  The claim is that hazing, pranks and casual use of the N word are pretty normal and widely tolerated.  If this is the case, and I suspect that it is, it provides pretty remarkable support for the notion (which enraged Tom Jackson) that the NFL exists outside the rules of normal society.  I can't think of a single corporate environment where using the N-word, even among friends, is appropriate business behavior, nor can I think of any professional environment where requiring new employees to pay for extravagant meals for old employees, or stealing the cars of new employees would be regarded as at best fireable at worst criminal.
 
This is a big problem for the NFL.  What this whole fiasco is revealing is that the NFL culture basically exists outside the norms of regular society (not that surprising) and probably outside the law.
 
The hip hop music industry, although the list may end there.
 

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If by gossip and innuendo you mean quotes from players and stories from reporters, then you got me. Everyone else keeps posting all of the" pro-Martin" information, I felt I had to be the voice for the very small "pro-Dolphins" camp. Not that there is a right or wrong in this situation, I just felt everyone was way too quick to bring down a shitstorm of judgement based on some initial details that came out.

If I've offended anyone in the process, my sincere apologies. That was never my intent.


I can't speak for everyone, but I would guess that the main reason you are being criticized is that you continually cite to players backing Incognito (who, by your own admission, kind of sucks and acted wrongly) as though it's some sort of defense for what occurred, while completely ignoring the possibility that maybe the entire organization/culture has it wrong. Considering that you have said what RI did was wrong, shouldn't you have more of a problem with some of the players saying these things?

Beyond that, there's enough evidence out there thus far to suggest that the organization has massive leadership problems, at best, and encourged this kind of behavior at worst. The players won't shut up about the situation, despite ownership telling them to zip it, the coach allegedly told a guy with some real anger an aggression issues to take a guy who may have had emotional issues serious enough in the past to have attempted suicide apparently, and now it turns out that when Martin went to management with his problems, he was told to fight his fellow lineman. Yes, we don't have definitive proof on a few of those, but there's no reason not to believe them at this point, and the reaction of the organization has been tone deaf enough that it is all really quite believable.
 

Van Everyman

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I think where sodenj5 is getting hung up is that the board has (with the aid of soxfan's amazing posts) understandably come together to condemn anti-bullying. While I am sympathetic to the idea that there are two sides to every story (and the extent to which the team has closed ranks around Incognito is peculiar only in its consistency), arguments in favor of RI are sort of necessarily insensitive to the bullying charge, which is far more emotionally fraught that financial extortion. I mean, I think if it turned out that Martin was, in fact, purely motivated by money and ruining a good guy who's biggest crime was using really inappropriate language, I'd like to believe that most people on this board would be horrified – if only because it would set back anti-bullying efforts unbelievably and put tens of thousands of real victims at massive risk.

That said, I find that version of the story to be really, really hard to believe – and had a very bad reaction to Volin's piece this am. Financially motivated or not, I have yet to see anything reported that suggests Martin wasn't completely in the right to be upset by the treatment he received. This isn't some revered leader here -- it's a guy who has a career full of indiscretions and bad judgment.

Goodell may be a jerk but one thing he gets is how to make an example of people. Rest assured that many heads will roll over this due to the bad PR alone – and that Incognito's will be rolling first.
 

dwainw

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sodenj5 said:
If by gossip and innuendo you mean quotes from players and stories from reporters, then you got me. Everyone else keeps posting all of the" pro-Martin" information, I felt I had to be the voice for the very small "pro-Dolphins" camp. Not that there is a right or wrong in this situation, I just felt everyone was way too quick to bring down a shitstorm of judgement based on some initial details that came out.

If I've offended anyone in the process, my sincere apologies. That was never my intent.
Unless somewhere along the line you personally questioned Martin's character or defended Incognito's comments or behavior and I missed it, I think you've pretty much stuck to 1) posting direct quotes from various media sources and 2) provided some balance to a pretty overwhelmingly negative interpretation of events in Miami to this point.  People can make the case that it's near-impossible not to interpret all of the events negatively, but as you've pointed out and as events have shown, there's a lot more information yet to come out.  Of course, I'm a Dolphins fan, so this might not help your cause. ;)

Furthermore, as someone who has "rushed to judgement" to some extent, I'm still baffled as to why of all the players on the Dolphins who've been quoted (or among those who played with him elsewhere), almost to a man people are defending Incognito and/or expressing seemingly genuine shock that things have come to this.  I find it hard to believe that that many guys either buried their head in the sand or are too morally bankrupt to say anything, even after the fact.  I feel terrible that Martin endured what he did and that he's in the position he's in now, but it's clear we don't know everything and I think it's OK to be reminded of that from time to time.
 

Scriblerus

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Okay...if Martin and Incognito are such great friends, and the texts/voicemails are just two guys joking around, where are the texts/voicemails from Martin to Incognito giving it back in kind?
 
It is classic bully/victim behavior for the bully to say "We're best friends.  I was just playing, right, buddy?"  Meanwhile the threat of violence lurks in every word.  What does the victim gain by saying "No, none of that is true"?  Especially, as we now are witnessing, when the majority of the group stands by the bully. 
 

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Van Everyman said:
That said, I find that version of the story to be really, really hard to believe and had a very bad reaction to Volin's piece this am. Financially motivated or not, I have yet to see anything reported that suggests Martin wasn't completely in the right to be upset by the treatment he received. This isn't some revered leader here -- it's a guy who has a career full of indiscretions and bad judgment.
I think what the players rallying around Incognito shows is that he IS a revered leader on that team. Every player yesterday, white black or otherwise, went to bat for Incognito saying that he was a friend to Martin someone that they valued highly.

He undoubtedly has a career full of indiscretions and bad judgements. There's no questioning that. His time in Miami seemingly rehabilitated him, and he was a different man. I'm not saying that it's impossible that he slipped and went back to being the same old RI that got him booted from St. Louis and Buffalo. That's possible.

But when an entire team, a team that spends countless hours around both Martin and Incognito, rally behind Incognito, shouldn't that say something? Maybe they aren't "closing ranks" around him. Maybe they're standing up for him because they know what's been transpiring behind the scenes.
 

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I think the problem for the Dolphins is that the best case scenario (well, other than that the facts were reported wrongly and what Incognito really said was that Martin was a half-ninja who should help him figure out how to get $15000 in Grand Theft Auto: Las Venturas) is that Incognito was not doing anything different from what goes on in most NFL locker rooms, Dolphins management like all other teams didn't police their locker rooms, and that Martin reacted to that in a way that was different from most (or even tried to shake the Dolphins down). That still seems like it wouldn't save the Dolphins from any lawsuit if that's the way Martin wants to go, and it's not going to help the Dolphins on the PR front in a time where bullying is part of the national conversation and part of the issue is that bullies don't recognise that they are bullies.

The comments by the players are tone deaf in that regard: instead of going "bullying is bad, but that's not what happened here, even if we can't go into details", they seem to be saying "Richie is not a racist and he's a good guy and good friend of Martin's". Which may be true but like it or not that "this is what friends do" idea meshes too closely with the experience of bullied people.
 

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sodenj5 said:
When this story first broke, you can check the Dolphins thread, I said I was disappointed in RI because he had seemingly turned his life around and become a leader on the team.

When the mob started forming, I suggested that maybe, just maybe, there was something other than a black and white case of bullying. Maybe there was something going on behind the scenes that hadn't come out yet. I didn't try to make excuses for his behavior, I just kept trying to push across the point that it seemed really strange that an entire organization can be caught off guard by something like this, and that Philbin ignoring or trying to cover something like this up seemed very out of character for him.

By that point it was too late. Incognito was already a racist bully. Joe Philbin was already a failure of a head coach that should be fired. The Dolphins organization was already a joke of an organization devoid of leadership. The pitchforks were out and the torches were lit.

For having an opinion that went against the grain, I was called "fucking idiotic" and it was suggested that I should "stay away from children." Being a Dolphins fan on a Red Sox/primarily NE message board, I've taken my fair share of shit. I felt like some of this was over the top.

I feel like all of these recent plot twists and turns have already proven my point that there is, in fact, SOMETHING going on behind the scenes that was not initially reported. I wouldn't say that I'm rooting for this to turn out one way or another. I do feel slightly vindicated by these recent developments though.
 
Fwiw, and it isn't worth much, I agree with you.  It's sort of surreal to see people sort of bullying others while decrying the act of bullying.  I largely stayed out of this thread when you started posting and getting push back because it seemed like opinions on this weren't welcome here unless you were trying to prove that you were somehow more offended than the last poster by what has gone on here.
 
I think it's entirely possible to think that sf121's post was magnificent and largely irrelevant.  I echo the sentiments of others that I would hope to show it and teach it to my own children someday.  But I think it's very dangerous to project our own experiences onto these individuals, especially at their current ages.  Child bullying is a really, really immense social problem that is becoming worse by the day.  I understand the desire to want to use this as an entry point to that discussion, but I think you have to recognize and acknowledge the gulf of difference between any of our experiences and what a current NFL player has gone through and experiences today.  These are not normal people, and they're not surrounded by normal people.  They're not in an average workplace, not by a long shot, and there are very different social dynamics at play.  Even the probable absurdity that a white guy can be "honorary black" or something as ridiculous sounding as that.  Most/many of these players come from extremely rough pasts and then are treated like Kings as their talent emerges.  Travel, camps, college.....it changes them and their experiences, imo, diverge them from the general population.  
 
The point about money is an important one because these abnormal people are all surrounded by lawyers at this point, including the coaches and executives, which means at least some of their actions will be defensive and/or legally oriented.  That doesn't change what may have happened, but it does make it fair to wonder which ones are about establishing legal positioning.  I guess what I find strange about this thread's discussion at this point is that there are a couple of facts that don't fit the narrative that Richie Incognito is a horrible racist bully, but it is for some reason not OK to pull on that string.  We just saw with Riley Cooper how an NFL group reacts to a white player using an "n word", yet video appears of this here and everyone rallies around the player.  Maybe the Dophins have packed their room with horrible humans, I honestly can't know, but the fact that his teammates are supporting him is a very strange thing that suggests maybe we shouldn't rush to judgment.  I'm not seeking or wanting to blame the accuser, but it seems like people closer to this situation (writers, players) have not felt eager to be sympathetic to this guy.  This also makes this more complicated.
 
This isn't a court of law and there is no need for "innocent until proven guilty".  I have a natural tendency to be ultra skeptical until I see things proven to me, so a situation like this where there is a bit of oddity and doubt mixed in means there's more to see before I'd pass judgment.  I would have been a magnificent defense attorney, capable of contorting myself in a hundred different ways about the plausibility of my client's innocence.  That is, of course, on me.  I just don't see the need to shout down the people who have posted a bit of the "other side".  If nothing else, it's interesting information to have as this plays out, because there's probably going to be a lot more to this than is out there today.  
 

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Van Everyman said:
I think where sodenj5 is getting hung up is that the board has (with the aid of soxfan's amazing posts) understandably come together to condemn anti-bullying. While I am sympathetic to the idea that there are two sides to every story (and the extent to which the team has closed ranks around Incognito is peculiar only in its consistency), arguments in favor of RI are sort of necessarily insensitive to the bullying charge, which is far more emotionally fraught that financial extortion. I mean, I think if it turned out that Martin was, in fact, purely motivated by money and ruining a good guy who's biggest crime was using really inappropriate language, I'd like to believe that most people on this board would be horrified – if only because it would set back anti-bullying efforts unbelievably and put tens of thousands of real victims at massive risk.

That said, I find that version of the story to be really, really hard to believe – and had a very bad reaction to Volin's piece this am. Financially motivated or not, I have yet to see anything reported that suggests Martin wasn't completely in the right to be upset by the treatment he received. This isn't some revered leader here -- it's a guy who has a career full of indiscretions and bad judgment.

Goodell may be a jerk but one thing he gets is how to make an example of people. Rest assured that many heads will roll over this due to the bad PR alone – and that Incognito's will be rolling first.
 
Maybe it's that I just don't care about the NFL but the rookie "financial hazing" is pretty much completely unacceptable in my book.  
 
A new worker gets harassed, and their money is spent (wasted basically) by other co workers, and the new worker complains about it, they're in for more harassment and/or losing more money.  Management approves this. 
 
Since when is that acceptable?   
 

Cuzittt

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But when an entire team, a team that spends countless hours around both Martin and Incognito, rally behind Incognito, shouldn't that say something? Maybe they aren't "closing ranks" around him. Maybe they're standing up for him because they know what's been transpiring behind the scenes.


It may very well say something. That something, however, is not necessarily a good thing.

If most of the Dolphins believe in the same Caste/Hazing system that Incognito does (and given all that has come out, that seems very likely), it makes sense that the team is rallying around Incognito. He is not the one that abandoned the team.

The fact that this is logical does not make it right. The culture of the NFL appears to need some major corrections... and those corrections are probably going to start with the Dolphins.
 

DJnVa

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sodenj5 said:
Omar Kelly updates after speaking to players in the locker room with several interesting quotes:


http://touch.sun-sentinel.com/#section/-1/article/p2p-78081567/

Hartline also had this quote that can be found on Kelly's twitter:


And this quote from Randy Starks
 
 
Dude, we get it. It was a fucked up locker room that's going to go down swinging. No one in there will take a stand for Martin for fear they will be the next target.
 
They all want to be tough and macho and badass, but real men don't act like he did.
 
And the whole "They looked like friends to me" is kinda like the neighbor of an abusive husband saying after the truth comes out that they looked like they were in love.
 
The mob mentality isn't in this thread. It's in that locker room.
 

Average Reds

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sodenj5 said:
I think what the players rallying around Incognito shows is that he IS a revered leader on that team. Every player yesterday, white black or otherwise, went to bat for Incognito saying that he was a friend to Martin someone that they valued highly.

He undoubtedly has a career full of indiscretions and bad judgements. There's no questioning that. His time in Miami seemingly rehabilitated him, and he was a different man. I'm not saying that it's impossible that he slipped and went back to being the same old RI that got him booted from St. Louis and Buffalo. That's possible.

But when an entire team, a team that spends countless hours around both Martin and Incognito, rally behind Incognito, shouldn't that say something? Maybe they aren't "closing ranks" around him. Maybe they're standing up for him because they know what's been transpiring behind the scenes.
 
Depends on what you think it is saying.
  • If you are saying that Incognito may not be the monster he is being portrayed as, you have a point.
  • If you are saying that Martin is somehow the responsible party here, then not really.
The players perspective is fascinating in a macabre way, but it's kind of irrelevant in the sense that I can really see only two possible endings to this shitshow:
  1. This was really the Richie Incognito show, and despite the protestations of the players, he's the driving force behind this.
  2. The Dolphins were oblivious to what was going on in the locker room, and by asking Incognito to "toughen up" Martin, they set in motion events that they neither understood nor paid much attention to and in the process ruined the careers of two players.
The one thing I don't see as a possibility is that this was all the Jonathan Martin show and this came about because he's "not tough enough" for the NFL and Richie Incognito is a good guy who ends up being exonerated.
 

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teddykgb said:
Fwiw, and it isn't worth much, I agree with you.  It's sort of surreal to see people sort of bullying others while decrying the act of bullying.  I largely stayed out of this thread when you started posting and getting push back because it seemed like opinions on this weren't welcome here unless you were trying to prove that you were somehow more offended than the last poster by what has gone on here.
Wow. I really, really wanted to say something along these lines in my previous post, but didn't because I didn't want to get shouted down into oblivion. I'm glad someone from a different perspective recognized this as well.
 

jose melendez

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Huh...  if his interpretation of the Vegas trip is true (he just had to pay for himself) that's a significant change, but given that he admits spending $9,600 to buy other guys dinner, I don't buy it.
 
It's sort of incredible... basically the argument is that the NFL is so damn special that the rules of normal society don't apply.
 

DJnVa

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rodderick said:
I thought this article was really interesting: http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/

Former Dolphin OL Lyndon Murtha's take on the matter. This situation is getting less "black and white" by the day.
 
Murtha spent one preseason on the roster when Martin was there (played the same position and was cut)--I'm not sure how many deep insights he has as to their relationship.
 
The most interesting part of that article is Murtha saying the coaches would have had full knowledge as to what was happening.
 

DJnVa

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teddykgb said:
 
Fwiw, and it isn't worth much, I agree with you.  It's sort of surreal to see people sort of bullying others while decrying the act of bullying.  I largely stayed out of this thread when you started posting and getting push back because it seemed like opinions on this weren't welcome here unless you were trying to prove that you were somehow more offended than the last poster by what has gone on here.  
 
So, what happened in this thread is "bullying", but Martin and Icognito were list best friends.
 

LuckyBen

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Mooch

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DrewDawg said:
 
Murtha spent one preseason on the roster when Martin was there (played the same position and was cut)--I'm not sure how many deep insights he has as to their relationship.
 
The most interesting part of that article is Murtha saying the coaches would have had full knowledge as to what was happening.
 
I think it speaks more to the culture within that locker room.  Plus, since Murtha is retired and doesn't fear retribution from the team in any way, he can speak most honestly about his experience and what he saw.
 

DJnVa

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Mooch said:
 
I think it speaks more to the culture within that locker room.  Plus, since Murtha is retired and doesn't fear retribution from the team in any way, he can speak most honestly about his experience and what he saw.
 
Ehh. I read it as more he wants to stay part of the good old boys club.
 

crystalline

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Gdiguy said:
If Ireland was actually stupid enough to say this, and even more stupid enough to say it and have it recorded (which I'm suspecting is possible, since I don't think espn would also report this unless it's more than just 'his agent says so'), Miami has just sealed their fate - there's no way the nfl can let this stand as acceptable for a GM (even though they may all think it is), there's way too much culpability it opens the dolphins up to for them to not act.
I can't wait for the next thing to leak tomorrow
He said this to Martin's AGENT??????
Not to mention knowing both parents are corporate lawyers???

Full FO meltdown is on. The national press hasn't even reached full-throated roar yet.

Edit:
I can buy that an NFL locker room is a unique working environment more similar to an urban school than an office. If a coach turns a blind eye to some level of fighting between players it's one thing, and I'd bet more than half of teams do so.
But the world of agents is white shirt corporate America. A GM telling this explicitly to an agent exhibits colossal stupidity, just for exposing yourself to future liability. If this report is true any competent org would fire Ireland not just for saying this, but for handling his GM role poorly.
 

Ralphwiggum

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sodenj5 said:
I think what the players rallying around Incognito shows is that he IS a revered leader on that team. Every player yesterday, white black or otherwise, went to bat for Incognito saying that he was a friend to Martin someone that they valued highly.

He undoubtedly has a career full of indiscretions and bad judgements. There's no questioning that. His time in Miami seemingly rehabilitated him, and he was a different man. I'm not saying that it's impossible that he slipped and went back to being the same old RI that got him booted from St. Louis and Buffalo. That's possible.

But when an entire team, a team that spends countless hours around both Martin and Incognito, rally behind Incognito, shouldn't that say something? Maybe they aren't "closing ranks" around him. Maybe they're standing up for him because they know what's been transpiring behind the scenes.
 
A few things here:
 
1.  As far as I can see, there is only one possible scenario where this isn't really bad for the Dolphins, and that is that this whole thing is a big giant ruse by Martin to extort some money from the team.  And by that I mean that he never felt the least bit threatened or bullied in the locker room and was completely OK with everything that went on there and is using this whole situation to exit the team and keep his salary.  I just think that is extremely, extremely unlikely.  Now, it may be that Incognito didn't fully realize that Martin wasn't OK with what was going on, and neither did the rest of the locker room, but in this context that sort of doesn't matter if Martin truly felt harassed (or whatever word you want to use) to the point where he could no longer play football.  It also makes comments by the rest of the players wholly irrelevant.  I think that is part of the reason people are reacting the way they are towards your comments.  Even looking at the facts in a light that is extremely sympathetic to Incognito, if Martin truly felt bullied and Incognito's behavior contributed to Martin leaving the team, then it was wrong, period.  It doesn't matter that the rest of the team is rallying around Incognito. 
 
2.  Unless I missed your post on the subject, you have completely ignored the reports that (a) Incognito was ordered by someone in the front office to "toughen up" Martin, and (b) Martin's agent told Ireland that Martin was bothered by the conduct and Ireland's reaction was the Martin should hit Incognito.  If either of those things are true, then the Dolphins deserve every bit of shit that get rained down on them EVEN IF Martin is partially doing this for financial gain.
 
3.  To me the best case scenario for the Dolphins here is that they are guilty of doing the same kind of fucked up shit that go on in most every NFL locker room to some degree or another, but they were the ones unfortunate enough to get caught and have this whole thing revealed publicly.  Even in that case, though, the Dolphins have made their situation much worse by having noted asshole Ritchie Incognito be both the one doing the hazing here, and also one of the appointed team leaders which is like doubling down on stupidity, and it makes all of the bad stuff that people want to believe about the story more believable.  Plus, "everyone else was doing it" isn't a great defense if you agree the underlying conduct is wrong.
 

soxfan121

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sodenj5 said:
(1)When the mob started forming, 
...
(2)For having an opinion that went against the grain, I was called "fucking idiotic" and it was suggested that I should "stay away from children." Being a Dolphins fan on a Red Sox/primarily NE message board, I've taken my fair share of shit. I felt like some of this was over the top.

(3) I wouldn't say that I'm rooting for this to turn out one way or another. 
sodenj5 said:
(4) Everyone else keeps posting all of the" pro-Martin" information, I felt I had to be the voice for the very small "pro-Dolphins" camp. 
sodenj5 said:
(5)I think what the players rallying around Incognito shows is that he IS a revered leader on that team. Every player yesterday, white black or otherwise, went to bat for Incognito saying that he was a friend to Martin someone that they valued highly.
 
1. If I am offended by anything in your posts, it is the continued use of the term "mob" and modifiers like "pitchforks and torches". By using these words (and if anything, this is an issue about words and their meanings). IMO, it displays a remarkable lack of understanding about what is really going on here. And more than one poster - most of them who've been VERY clear about this being about more than LAUNDRY - has attempted to make you see that this is not about team rooting interest. It is about an issue that exists in society. An issue that many of us who you've decided to term a "mob" deal with in different capacities in our everyday lives, either as teachers or coaches of youth teams or parents or in (my case) our personal history. 
 
To be labeled a member of a "mob" has a very specific connotation - a typically negative and pejorative one. One that suggests, IMO, a group doing something for a nefarious or otherwise ill-intentioned purpose. One that isn't interested in seeing logic or reason. One that has a prejudiced and inappropriate goal. And frankly, that could not be further from the truth. I cannot fathom how someone who reads this thread could think that this was about a "mob" coming after the Dolphins with "pitchforks and torches". Maybe that's my failure of perception and open-mindedness. But I think I've gone above and beyond in an attempt to explain why *I* think this situation is a big deal, not only to me personally but to society at large. And I have tried (and maybe I've failed) to take rooting interest out of it entirely. I meant what I said - if this were happening in Oakland or Foxboro or Cleveland or in the CFL somewhere, I would feel the same way. Namely, that bullying is an issue in our society and that it needs to be talked about, discussed by adults honestly and fairly and needs to be CHANGED.
 
2. Interestingly, you've accurately described what it feels like to be bullied and you apparently didn't like it very much. Of all the things I've written and will write, I urge you to examine THIS. Being bullied is not fun. It hurts, emotionally. It makes someone feel disrespected, devalued and inconsequential. It makes someone angry and it makes someone feel powerless to do anything to change the situation. 
 
And it feels worse when everyone around you doesn't get how you feel about it. It makes you feel like the whole world (or the whole board) is against you. And when no one has your back and says "Enough!" it makes you question "why am I here? why am I putting up with this? why doesn't anyone understand how this is hurting me?" 
 
Jonathan Martin felt like this. And I think you, sodenj, need to think about that.
 
3. Bullshit. You are a Dolphins fan and from the outset here, you've been worried about how this is affecting your favorite football team. You have a very clear rooting interest here and the fact that you keep referencing this as a "Patriots board" and the "mob" shows me quite clearly that your rooting interest is coloring everything you read and write about this issue. 
 
Let me repeat - I don't fucking care that this is the Dolphins. I care that this is HAPPENING. That it is happening in Miami is unfortunate for Dolphins players and fans but if it were happening in Foxboro, I would be just as vehement in my condemnation of the players involved, the lack of leadership from the people in charge and the people defending the actions of what I see as something unacceptable. 
 
Granted, the NFL is not your typical workplace. But really, that does not excuse behavior that in EVERY SINGLE OTHER WORK ENVIRONMENT IN THE WORLD would get a person fired. I do not buy the idea that the NFL should be treated differently. Especially when this problem extends to youth football and into schools. As Charles Barkley found out, professional athletes are role models. They are held to a different standard than most other professionals. And like it or not, the way that social change is enacted is through situations like this. It is a big deal in Miami because it is an issue that is happening on a small scale everywhere. And because parents, youth coaches and teachers have to deal with issues related to bullying every single day. That's not fair to the Dolphins but it is what it is - society works this way. 
 
4. Mostly addressed, but I don't think there are "pro-Martin" and "pro-Dolphin" sides  I think there are "status quo" and "change" sides. I think there is a "this is the way the NFL works" side and a "this is not the way the NFL should work" side. I think there is a "bullying builds character/makes someone a man" side and a "bullying is wrong because it hurts people" side. 
 
I think that your laundry obsession has led you to see the people discussing bullying as a societal issue as "anti-Dolphin", which I believe to be your problem and your inability to comprehend the larger issues at play here. 
 
5. This is the stickiest, most difficult aspect of this problem. And I'm positive that someone will address it better than I. However, it is not uncommon for groups to "close ranks" when scrutinized from the outside. "You don't understand what happens in OUR group" is a common refrain. And the camaraderie and bonding of a group can create strong feelings of protectiveness among groups. 
 
Last night I referenced Penn State as a negative example of this type of thinking. And it might be too strong or inflammatory but I'm standing by it. PSU supporters, Joe Paterno supporters made the same complaints, acted in the same way. They tried to minimize the severity of the problem by insisting that JoePa was a "great guy". And mostly, Joe Paterno was a great guy. Helped thousands of kids get an education. Paid for the library. Gave to charities. But he also did something terribly, awfully wrong. That he did not report, properly, a sexual assault has tarnished his legacy and his decades of good acts. 
 
Is what Richie Incognito alleged to have done compare to what Joe Paterno is alleged to have done? Not in my opinion. But this isn't a competition to see whose bad acts are worse - it is an examination of why things happen and what we, as human beings, are willing to accept or condemn. So the "everyone loves Richie" justification does not matter to me. Everyone loved JoePa. And he still deserved to have his statue torn down and his name taken off the library and the program sanctioned. Just because everyone in the Dolphins locker room loves Richie doesn't necessarily mean that Richie is blameless or his actions can be excused by society at large. 
 
I sincerely hope you start thinking about this as the larger problem it represents and stop thinking about it as some petty vendetta by a "mob" of fans who don't like your team. Because you could not be more wrong or misguided. 
 

Infield Infidel

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lambeau said:
http://www.nfl.com/incognito
 
Is Richie trainable?
 
I was puzzled by his black teammates support, and astonished when the Miami Herald reported they consider Richie blacker than Martin. A brother.
 
Perhaps the "half-N" epithet was insulting Martin for being insufficiently black, i.e. ghetto, i.e.tough.
 
 
 
This doesn't surprise me at all. For a lot of black people, dealing with black people who in one way or another don't fit the stereotype, such as immigrant blacks, mixed-race, highly educated, or even just from other regions of the country, is far more difficult than dealing with a meathead fratboy like Incognito. At least he fits a mold. They don't know what to do if you are black but don't fit the mold, and are often threatened by it if some aspect of it perceived as foreign or nerdy or (I hate this word) "uppity." If you aren't in the mold, you couldn't possibly have had a tough life, or your forbears couldn't possibly have gone through "the struggle." As if growing up in Africa isn't a struggle, or being in an interracial relationship pre-1980 wasn't a struggle. Furthermore, why does going through a struggle endow one with more credibility? They don't know what to make of other kinds of blacks, because in America, blacks are deemed subconsciously as a monolith of descendants of American slaves. Like, during introductions in mixed settings, oftentimes no one even asks what my background is. If you are white, you are italian or german or jewish (sometimes), or whatever. If you are black, you are black. It's understandable from white people because in a lot of ways white people are afraid to talk about it, which is completely reasonable and basically inconsequential. From black people, I just don't get giving shit to different kinds of black people, stuff like calling them not as black. It's insufferable. There's incredible diversity within the black community, but there's also a bubble which these players supporting RI are in. 
 
And it's not just an educational thing. in 2005, I asked Cornel West in a Q&A about what Obama's then-senate election meant for relations between blacks of different cultures and he said that "Brother Barack has a long way to go to galvanize support in the black community" which is ridiculous since he'd been in Chicago for 20 years and won the senate in a landslide, with support from all kinds of people. 
 

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sodenj5 said:
If by gossip and innuendo you mean quotes from players and stories from reporters, then you got me. Everyone else keeps posting all of the" pro-Martin" information, I felt I had to be the voice for the very small "pro-Dolphins" camp. Not that there is a right or wrong in this situation, I just felt everyone was way too quick to bring down a shitstorm of judgement based on some initial details that came out.

If I've offended anyone in the process, my sincere apologies. That was never my intent.
 
I appreciate your final statement and hope you are as open to hearing some of us out as you seem to indicate. I'm staunchly in the AverageReds camp such that I don't have a problem with people posting unpopular opinions. I was, however, quite bothered with the type and manner of the opinions. Specifically, while what you posted was generally sourced and accurate, it failed to engage the fact that it was all entirely consistent with and even potentially enabling of a bullying regime, as Shelterdog and certain others have pointed out. Now, the data you bring could be evidence that bullying did not, in fact, occur.
 
But that's the problem: if information can be both consistent with there having been bullying or there not having been bullying, then it's a bit mindless to assume it's evidence of not bullying. It is that callous assumption to take it as evidence of not bullying rather than engaging a broader understanding to see how it could also be part and parcel of a cultural problem that allows or even encourages bullying that I think many of us found so off-putting. It wasn't that you didn't want to rush judgment, but it's that your ostensible pleas not to rush to judgment were made in ways that encouraged an inhibiting of the sorts of investigations that judgment should be premised on. In this vein, I would point you to the first response you made in this thread--the first response to the opening post in fact--and look at how your first reaction was play arm-chair psychologist on Martin in purely speculative fashion.
 
Anyway, there were lots of examples of allegedly exculpatory evidence you raised that bothered me with respect to how its precisely thinking such things are exculpatory that allow these problems to persist (The analogy here would be pictures of a young woman drinking with the guy she later accuses of rape at trial.) but I think this one probably brought it into the highest relief:
 
 

sodenj5 said:
Tannehill just spoke with the media.

He said if you asked him who Martin's best friend on the team was, he would say Richie Incognito.

He was asked to describe their relationship, and he answered like big brother-little brother.
 
It reminded me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVNHcob3oJg
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

dcmissle

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How is pushing the "shakedown theory" any less of a rush to judgment than the very things you and sodenj5 are complaining about?
 
I have no dog in this fight (sorry, Mike Vick)  and am pushing nothing.  I'd only like all the facts to come out, and  with Ted Wells spearheading the investigation, I'm fairly confident they will.
 
I am amused, however, by the great upset on the part of some who are pissed that the Dolphins are not muzzling their players.  Let's put aside the facts that this is a non-starter for at least a couple of reasons:  (i) the team and League have no authority to fine players for talking about this; (ii) the Dolphins players apparently feel so strongly about it, that anyone in management who attempts to bludgeon them into silence might run a great risk of losing the team.
 
Usually, the reflexive reaction here would be contra a team bludgeoning its players into silence.  So could it be in this instance that people simply don't like what the players are saying, and that the facts they are imparting are effing with the preferred, clean cut narrative? 
 
As a Pats fan, I am sympathetic to a team attempting to play a season in the midst of a media rush to judgment and feeding frenzy, in which a lot of the information disclosed turns out later to be incomplete, and in some important instances flat out wrong.
 

GregHarris

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rodderick said:
I thought this article was really interesting: http://mmqb.si.com/2013/11/07/richie-incognito-jonathan-martin-dolphins-lydon-murtha/

Former Dolphin OL Lyndon Murtha's take on the matter. This situation is getting less "black and white" by the day.
 
Yeah he does have a dog in this fight, it's Richie..  Martin was branded an "outsider" because he didn't want to foot a 9 grand dinner bill?  Hard to get me to empathize with your position when you lead off with that BS.
 

rodderick

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GregHarris said:
 
Yeah he does have a dog in this fight, it's Richie..  Martin was branded an "outsider" because he didn't want to foot a 9 grand dinner bill?  Hard to get me to empathize with your position when you lead off with that BS.
I agree it's dumb, but I don't think there's a position to empathize with. He's merely relating what he saw, unless you believe he's lying about everything else to protect Incognito, which, frankly, I don't think is the case.

If I read it correctly not wanting to pay for the dinner was just an early sign that Martin wasn't "one of the guys", but it wasn't definitive. Apparently, his distant behavior got the attention of coaches too. Obviously, that doesn't justify being called names and being threatened, but at this point I think it's hard not to believe Martin was an outsider in that lockerroom, for whatever reason that may be. This is more of a discussion about NFL culture than an Incognito vs. Martin thing. Why is it that an introverted guy has to be immediately singled out by his peers? There are a shitton of weird/quiet/exotic personalities in baseball, for instance, and you never hear about this kind of shit happening.
 

Bergs

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dcmissle said:
If Hartline is right, that's a game changer.

We learned this in the Marathon Bombing, in which we subjected to Reddit poisoning, and again with AH --

It's too bad, but threads do not come with erasers.
 
I still think that dude with the beard was in on it.
 
 
Edit: wrong quote.
 

PBDWake

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Sodenj, I guess the disconnect between you and I is this... Even at its best, its a story about a quiet guy who wasn't really comfortable in his own locker room getting called half-n***** by a white teammate and being forced to pay thousands of dollars for stuff for his senior. The best case scenario is something that shouldn't happen to begin with. 
 
*edit*
Which isn't to say that the Dolphins are alone in this, that if Martin was lying about much of this that this board wouldn't immediately turn on him, that Richie Incognito isn't beloved by his other teammates. But when that's your best case, it's a lot more reasonable to condemn the behavior. I don't think you should have had remarks targeted at you, personally, because that's not kosher to this debate. But there's where I think our difference in viewpoint is.
 
And it's funny, everyone says that nobody can understand the mentality of an NFL locker room, but in different ways, it's very similar to the rape culture that happens in America. A lot of the things being said about Martin are reminiscent of what mothers tell their daughters (Don't wear revealing clothing, don't talk to men you don't know at parties, etc), because it all works under the assumption that guys can't rise above some stupid primal urge they need to satisfy and do the right thing. 
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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soxfan121 said:
 
 
 
3. Bullshit. You are a Dolphins fan and from the outset here, you've been worried about how this is affecting your favorite football team. You have a very clear rooting interest here and the fact that you keep referencing this as a "Patriots board" and the "mob" shows me quite clearly that your rooting interest is coloring everything you read and write about this issue. 
 
 
To tack on to this point, I am following this thread for three things, in order from lesser to greater importance:  information, opinion, and perspective.  When it is clear that any poster wants a narrative or a version of the facts to be true, it raises my suspicion level.  That's a bit dangerous, because sometimes those folks have the best perspective, so I try to keep an open mind.  When, however, I get the sense that the poster is being selective to fit the narrative they want to be true, it feels like cherry picking and my suspicion turns to skepticism.  I see above that soden has at least in part endorsed the tenor of the thread as analogous to bullying (I hope I'm reading that right).  I want to be very clear, soden, that I make no judgment about your nature or your character and it is not my desire to do anything but express my thoughts about your ideas as opposed to you.  I think the point is, simply, to explain why in the marketplace of ideas, I view yours as expressed to date in this thread as relatively lower than others.