Romeo Langford - Pick #14
- Thread starter ifmanis5
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Right, he'd have to be healthy for all of 21/22 playing at an all star level to be signed for 3-4 years, aka playing every game. That includes back to backs. As is, he'll be lucky to get Lou Williams money.
He may be a slightly better player, but I can't get behind the "much better" descriptor
Because not all negative values are equal. The question is how underwater is the contract. If the player were a FA in a normal free agency market, what would he sign for? The delta between that number (his properly paid #) and the actual contract is what your paying to acquiring team in assets.
At the time of the trade Horford was due 27.5, 27 and 14.5. Though he was a poor fit in Philly, his actual production was comparable to his last year in Boston. In OKC while playing few minutes his numbers have improved. What do you think Horford would get on the market this year? Could he get the same contract that Danny gave to TT? While Horford was a bad fit in Philly, there are plenty of teams who could still use a savvy, low usage, big with some stretch to his game. They are not going to pay 27M for it, but Al could still play meaningful minutes on a winning team.
Kemba's FG and 3 percentage are down 27% and 30% from last year (and from most of his prime). He has a degenerative knee condition. The possibility of him no longer being able to contribute at all to winning basketball in the final year of that deal (while collecting 37M is a real one.
It's also worth remembering that Horford is not the only comp of a salary dump.
There might be a team or two where I would take TT over Horford, but I'm almost always taking Big Al over TT if everything else is equal. This is especially true for this Celtics team. He would actually stretch the floor at the 5 and the team's passing wouldn't miss a beat with either Al or TL on the court. I'm not sure how well they would play alongside each other. That may not be much of an issue if TL is only going to play 25 minutes a night though.
I also don't think Al would be unplayable in the post season. I'm assuming Kemba will be.
Well first of all, I wasn't reading "more trade value" to mean "less negative value," but I'm pretty sure I understand that a lower negative number is greater than a higher negative number. At least my 10 year old thinks I do when I help him with math homework.
Do I think Al would get 2/$18M if he was on the open market this year? I don't know, maybe? I mean TT is a lot younger than he is and I guess I'd have to look at film to see if Al is able to guard anyone anymore.
Would KW get 2/$18M at the end of this year if his contract were up? Maybe, particularly if he were willing to come off the bench. I mean Rondo signed for 2/$15M and regular season KW is more productive than regular season Rondo.
Horford was a terrible contract at the time it was signed and I'm glad the Cs didn't sign him to that. I wasn't a fan of the KW signing at the time and it's too bad the Cs have to deal with it but the only hope is that if KW can get his knee right for the playoffs, he can still be a dangerous player.
I'm sure my memory isn't as good as yours, but IIRC, the last time we saw Al, he was having huge problems playing defense against the Cs. Al isn't going out and guarding smaller people on the perimetr anymore.
edit: here's a CBlog article makes the point that the fact that Romeo is contributing positively on defense after only playing 35 career games shows a lot of promise: https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/4/9/22373643/romeo-langfords-immediate-impact-boston-celtics
And just to get back to the thread topic, a tweet from (I believe this is correct) a writer who covers the Cs for Forbes:
And just to get back to the thread topic, a tweet from (I believe this is correct) a writer who covers the Cs for Forbes:
Romeo Langford on his shooting: "I've just been working on it since day one with the Celtics. I put in so much time, effort, hours, and now I just shoot. It comes naturally. I feel like I'm getting back to my old self -- back in HS when I was shooting really good."
View: https://twitter.com/chrisgrenham/status/1380549388284616720
People shouldn’t be surprised that Romeo can take and make perimeter shots. He isn’t some type of brick layer that the numbers show. The game before tearing, and playing through, thumb ligaments in his shooting hand at Indiana he was coming off a 22-pt game, 2-5 threes and 8-9 from the line prior to playing with his right thumb heavily bandaged the remainder of the year. Then he had wrist surgery as a professional. Combining his offense with his floor game it hurts my head when I continue reading “Langford/Nesmith” as if they are one in the same hoping one pans out. Langford is already an NBA rotation player with plenty of upside......the other is a lost rookie without the floor game or presence of Romeo.
Combine that with shooting being the most common skill to add.
It's reasonable to be very high on Romeo imo. I would be far more willing to move Nesmith--you'd have to get real value to trade Langford.
I wouldn't want him to. Either way, Id prefer him over Kemba. I'd prefer neither.
Give it a few weeks and people will stop doing the RL and AN thing. RL hadn't played since September and played less minutes his rookie season than AN. Watching RL vs AN on the court and the difference is pretty clear that they are at different points in their NBA career.
RL is also one of those guys who is just so long and athletic he'd have to try to be bad on defense. Or rather, not put any effort in at all.
I agree with this.
Apologies that the Romeo thread was hijacked...The Kemba stuff was all started on this thread because HRB was thinking that "trade Smart rumors" were potentially due to Romeo sliding into his role. BUT I'd rather have Danny just keep Smart & Romeo since they FIT with JayRob better than Kemba.
Kemba is just a bad FIT on the Celtics
1. KW is not an efficient off-ball scorer
2. KW is a terrible defender. It puts added pressure on the 4 other teammates on the floor to constantly rotate out of bad Kemba matchups. Teams across the league are shooting better. A bad defender is more penal than ever before.
3. KW gets really exposed in playoff games when the style changes to more of a halfcourt game/attack the weakest defender matchup
4. KW also gets exposed vs. better teams (Mil/Phila are bigger/stronger throughout their lineup)
5. KW's degenerative knee, by definition, is getting worse. Not moving him is a sizeable 2-year gamble
6. I don't see Kemba putting up enough points or being efficient enough on offense to even sniff the opt-out. YMMV
Why would OKC want Kemba?
1. Kemba is better as a ball-dominant scorer. He could go back to being a top 2 option and could put up over 20ppg in that role.
2. Kemba has a better chance of opting out with OKC since he could post better offensive #s with no concern about winning/defending.
3. Kemba could create a happier atmosphere on a young team 2-3 years away from the playoffs.
4. Presti looked like a genius rebuilding value with Chris Paul and grabbing assets. He may feel that Boston is a bad spot for Kemba, building up value in Kemba is probably easier than Horford.
With the Celtics, Horford could be used as a 20mpg Point Center that can back up TL. Opens up trading Thompson's contract. Ultimate downside: If Al doesn't work the cost is $14.5 MM the following season as opposed to Kemba not working and costing $37.6MM.
So in a vacuum people could make a legitimate argument that Kemba > Horford. BUT for the Celtics, I'd much rather have Al since his role would make the team much better defensively and probably the same offensively. The contract difference matters with Rob Williams getting expensive, and the potential downside ($20MM) the following season.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/horfoal01.html
No, I think that makes more sense. I just think of OKC as the fallback if Orlando isn't interested for whatever reason.
Yes. Ross + Harris is a better option than Al Horford
back to our regularly scheduled programming: ROMEO watch has begun
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/4/9/22373643/romeo-langfords-immediate-impact-boston-celtics
NBA.com has a stat called "DIFF%," which the difference between "FG%" and "DFG%". I'm not exactly sure how they calculate "FG%" for a player but I believe that "DFG%" is % of FGs made against a specific player. At any rate, people can find it at "Players Defense Dashboard Overall": Players Defense Dash Overall | Stats | NBA.com .
RL has allowed 5 makes in 20 attempts versus a 45.3 FG%, which means his "DIFF%" is -20.3. That's #2 in the league for any player defending 20 or more shots. He is behind a guy named Axel Toupane (4 DFGM / 22 DFGA versus a FG% of 38.9 means his DIFF% = -20.7), who is on a two-way contract with MIL.
#3 is some guy named Keljin Blevins for POR (-13.5% on 20DFGA). Darius Miller is #4, Paul Reed is #5 (-13.2 on 51 DFGA).
For players with a substantial # of DFGA (say 200), Claxton is #1 (-11.0 on 203 DFGA).
This may be SSS but thought it was an interesting stat. By my eyes, Romeo does a great job at challenging shots and making shooters uncomfortable
RL has allowed 5 makes in 20 attempts versus a 45.3 FG%, which means his "DIFF%" is -20.3. That's #2 in the league for any player defending 20 or more shots. He is behind a guy named Axel Toupane (4 DFGM / 22 DFGA versus a FG% of 38.9 means his DIFF% = -20.7), who is on a two-way contract with MIL.
#3 is some guy named Keljin Blevins for POR (-13.5% on 20DFGA). Darius Miller is #4, Paul Reed is #5 (-13.2 on 51 DFGA).
For players with a substantial # of DFGA (say 200), Claxton is #1 (-11.0 on 203 DFGA).
This may be SSS but thought it was an interesting stat. By my eyes, Romeo does a great job at challenging shots and making shooters uncomfortable
He's going to be an absolute pest with his length and athleticism. He's going to be a DWade or better level blocker and while blocks aren't everything, they can be beneficial. Especially when they come from an untraditional position. The type of blocks he's going to get will also result in a lot of possession changes too.
I like Claxton, really active BIG. TimeLord-ish
Started looking at him before the trade deadline when I thought the Nets would be kicking down the Celtics door for Tristan (Dinwiddie + Claxton). The buyout BIG market was a much better option for the Nets and others that may have had an interest in TT
Tsn in Canada has stopped showing as many Celtics games, since the Cs no loger seem a title contender, so I hav enot seen much of Romeo's return, but very simply he is closer to NBA athlete average in size and agility than Semi, Pritchard, Kemba, Grant, et al and is simply a legit defender of shooters. Being legit or average is exceptionally valuable. If he becomes an average NBA wing in first part of his contract that is high value.
Langford is above average NBA athlete. His length is also amazing if he's playing at the 2, which I imagine he would be most of the time. I think another way Langford is different than the guys you mentioned because he can guard 1-3 or even 1-4.
Also Semi is a great athlete with great agility. He just never leaves the floor and doesn't use his arms. He also doesn't have the length.
You said he's closer to NBA athlete average in size and agility. That can be taken a lot of ways. I took it as he's closer, but he's not quite average in size or agility.
When it comes to size/length, the guy is a freak.
I wonder if this stat has any meaning or if it's just a random number. If it does have meaning, the guy ahead of Romeo - Axel Toupane is on a two-way contract for MIL. He was also described as the "best slasher in the G League." Seems like a guy who can slash and can play + defense at the wing position would be worth more than a two-way contract to lots of teams.
Also, there are some interesting names at the other end of the list. Minimum of 20 DFGA, TJ Warren was the worst at +18.3 (21 FGA). Shaq Harrison was third worst; Bol Bol was 5th worst; Ntilikina was surprisingly 6th worst (+11.9 on 73 DFGA), followed by Carsen Edwards. Minimum 100 DFGA, the worst was RJ Hampton at +9.0 on 130 DFGA.
At a minimum of 150 DFGA, the worst 11 are: Shamet, Simons, Dieng, Garland, Wanamaker, Murray, Pokuseyski, Russell, Hermangomez (MEM), Windler, and Kanter, which seems about right.
Pretty fascinating stat.
Is it fascinating? I am not sure what it's trying to show nor how to interpret it beyond a meaningless novelty statistic. Is this supposed to combine offense and defense? If so why is it using field goal percentage and not eFG% or TS%? How do they attribute DFGA?
yea, might be worth looking at over a few seasons and see if it's predictive of anything.
Also in regards to G-League: I think drafting 2nd round picks is pretty worthless. I like that Danny used them to add Fournier. You're better off just seeing which players pop in the G-League and adding those guys for the 15th & 2-way spots. There are a handful this year, I'd much rather have than Tre, Javonte.
I don't know the answer to your questions. I imagine that DFGA is measured by when a person is the closest defender. I definitely don't know how they determine the comparison FG%. I have thoughts how I would do it but who knows?
So yes I think it's fascinating from the list of guys who are at both ends but I have no idea if it's useful or not.
FWIW, their glossary defines it as "The difference between the normal percentage of a shooter on shots throughout the season and the percentage on shots when the defensive player or team is guarding the shooter. A good defensive number will be negative because the defensive player holds their opponent to a lower percentage than normal."
The sample size is so small it's meaningless and not really a 2 year sample but his career assist % to date is 4.3%. My hope for Langford is that he can play PG in a pinch. He'll need some improvement to get there.
He's exciting to watch but he is still really raw on offense.
He's exciting to watch but he is still really raw on offense.
I watched the Mike Schmitz draft breakdown the other day to daydream a bit:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FnZrEmorIw
The thing that excites me is that the biggest weakness described is defensive consistency and toughness. To have those now be his strengths as a player is really encouraging.
The other things - right hand dominant, holding the ball, bad pull ups, etc - we've seen get improved in the Celtics program, particularly with Jaylen (who I think is the closest comp to Romeo on the team in terms of size and skill).
I'm really excited about what he's going to bring to the table next year in terms of skills development. If he can shoot 35% from 3, continue to play good D, and flash just some of the offensive skill he showed at IU, the Celtics really have something.
Now if he could only stay healthy for 90% of a season...
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FnZrEmorIw
The thing that excites me is that the biggest weakness described is defensive consistency and toughness. To have those now be his strengths as a player is really encouraging.
The other things - right hand dominant, holding the ball, bad pull ups, etc - we've seen get improved in the Celtics program, particularly with Jaylen (who I think is the closest comp to Romeo on the team in terms of size and skill).
I'm really excited about what he's going to bring to the table next year in terms of skills development. If he can shoot 35% from 3, continue to play good D, and flash just some of the offensive skill he showed at IU, the Celtics really have something.
Now if he could only stay healthy for 90% of a season...
How do people feel about his release? I guess there isn't much to go on yet. His actual shot looks a lot better.
Looks like he has gotten his left hand off the ball, has a stronger base, and doesn't have a hitch anymore. The bad part is that the release still looks somewhat shot-put-y. As HRB has mentioned, he has good touch, and I would bet on him getting there as an ok shooter rather than the reverse.
The big uncertainty for me is whether he can find his playmaking/off-the-bounce game again, since that's a big part of his upside.
Langford got a look at PG last night in a lineup of nobodies (Parker, Grant, Kornet, Nesmith). Not great, not awful. Maybe that is something (not BE a full time PG, but maybe give them a few minutes there at times) that he can eventually do.
I was thinking the same thing, but was bringing the ball up without pressure. We know doing it for a couple of minutes and doing it with someone really pressing is different. I didn't mind seeing it though, if nothing else it tells me that Brad is looking at all possibilities.
He has a long way to go, no doubt. But the defensive value of having him at the point would be huge.
I don’t this it was as much of Brad looking than it was Brad not having any other options last night:
Yeah, "Romee" (weird nickname I admit) had about 4-5 really good defensive plays last night, including the block that wasn't.
Also think that floater he took last night in 4Q will fall as he plays more.
True - Romeo doesn't get minutes at the point when Kemba and Smart are around, but Brad clearly sees this as something Lanford should be working towards.
View: https://twitter.com/RedsArmy_John/status/1384327165307760640?s=20
John Karalis: Brad Stevens says Romeo Langford needs to get the primary ballhandling role "in his wheelhouse" eventually, but he's nowhere close to being where he needs to be yet. Said he will eventually get into an Evan Turner type mode but that's down the line.
For a team that switches a lot of defense (and often gets victimized by opponets who hunt the PG), there's certainly some value to be gained there.
https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/04/20/romeo-langford-point-guard-look-debut-running-show/
Evan Turner is an interesting comparison there. Brad did wonders for Turner's career using him as a big ball handler off the bench. If they can develop Romeo into that he becomes pretty valuable.
It's interesting as Romeo seems to be a very good defensive player (which I don't think was his reputation coming out of college) but pretty awful on offense. It's probably just a repetitions thing, but they need to find a way for him to get involved on the offensive end. Even if he could knock down the occasional three, which at this point would be very occasional for him, the defense won't respect that shot from him - so I don't think he's useful as a floor spacer. They need to get him driving and cutting to the basket.
There's an article on The Athletic today about Romeo's future as a ball handler off the bench. It's behind a paywall but I'll pull out a couple quotes from Brad.
Celtics still learning how to maximize Romeo Langford for the present and future
Celtics still learning how to maximize Romeo Langford for the present and future
An interesting tidbit in there is... they see PP as a shooter (he is) but obviously not as a true PG (he probably isn't) and Ideally want another ball-handler out there with him. I can see the ideal fit of PP who is a shooter and mediocre handler with poor D, and Romeo, who can't shoot but has top end defensive potential, if you can make him a better facilitator. A backcourt of PP and Romeo could give you a lot as a bench unit if both are solid but unspectacular facilitators, with PP deep threat opening space, and Romeo as a slasher, and Romeo guarding the better offensive player on the other end.
Turner is an interesting comp.
One thing I have seen with Romeo this year and last is that he is often able to get himself in decent scoring positions in the paint but will miss badly at the rim. To me it looks like he just needs reps to slow the game down. They are the kind of misses that look like he is expecting contact or a potential block that never comes, so he won't take the time or will make a shot harder than it needs to be. Seems like a matter of gaining experience, confidence, and a better understanding of what he can do on the court. His defensive ability is enough to keep him on the court, which will help.
His future is almost entirely tied up in what happens with the rest of the roster, as those ball-handling reps long-term may be tough to come by unless/until one of the top guys (likely Smart or Kemba) are off the roster.
One thing I have seen with Romeo this year and last is that he is often able to get himself in decent scoring positions in the paint but will miss badly at the rim. To me it looks like he just needs reps to slow the game down. They are the kind of misses that look like he is expecting contact or a potential block that never comes, so he won't take the time or will make a shot harder than it needs to be. Seems like a matter of gaining experience, confidence, and a better understanding of what he can do on the court. His defensive ability is enough to keep him on the court, which will help.
His future is almost entirely tied up in what happens with the rest of the roster, as those ball-handling reps long-term may be tough to come by unless/until one of the top guys (likely Smart or Kemba) are off the roster.
Watching the game last night with Ainge on the broadcast was very interesting. He was much more open with his thoughts than I expected him to be and you could kind of tell the players he has an affinity for.
It seemed like he definitely thought a lot of “Romie” as a player.
Conversely...didn’t come off as much of Grant fan. (Mentioned that he thought he blew the 3 on 1 breakaway by not shooting and passing it to Jaylen, mentioned a few times that he was flopping and shouldn’t get the call he was asking for and was about to say the same on the play that Grant got a T on but I think he realized he was on air just in the Nick of time)
It seemed like he definitely thought a lot of “Romie” as a player.
Conversely...didn’t come off as much of Grant fan. (Mentioned that he thought he blew the 3 on 1 breakaway by not shooting and passing it to Jaylen, mentioned a few times that he was flopping and shouldn’t get the call he was asking for and was about to say the same on the play that Grant got a T on but I think he realized he was on air just in the Nick of time)
Based on Stevens quotes, it appears it was both. Brad's got a long term vision that Romeo can add value to his game and the team by being able to do a bit of PG work when there are other shooters on the floor, and also... he had little else to try in that spot.
Evan Turner on "Romey":
Note: while Romee was only credited with one assist (probably the long pass to JT), he set up 2 other baskets on PnR plays: Murder Kornet's dunk and Parker's reverse layup.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/4/20/22393614/must-cs-romeo-langfords-facilitating-flashes-boston-celtics-chicago-bulls-point-forward-brad-stevens
And [ET] said it’s clear that Langford’s skill set will not get in the way of Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown. He thinks they could be a dangerous trio, with Langford serving as the primary facilitator.
“He can distribute and be a great complementary piece at a high level,” Turner said. “He can add rebounding, defense, and his developing shot. He could be a triple-double threat. And with Brad’s playbook, when he starts getting more comfortable, he can start taking people to the post.
“A lot of the stuff we’re talking about is big-guard stuff, and I think that’s advantageous.”
For now, Langford is more likely to get opportunities leading the second unit. But he will not be stepping into this role on a larger scale any time soon. He ran the offense with the backups for about seven minutes in the second quarter Monday and had 2 points, 2 steals, 1 assist, and 1 turnover.
Note: while Romee was only credited with one assist (probably the long pass to JT), he set up 2 other baskets on PnR plays: Murder Kornet's dunk and Parker's reverse layup.
https://www.celticsblog.com/2021/4/20/22393614/must-cs-romeo-langfords-facilitating-flashes-boston-celtics-chicago-bulls-point-forward-brad-stevens
View: https://twitter.com/taylorcsnow/status/1385371975170801667
His transition defense and his second jump are so good.
His transition defense and his second jump are so good.