Romeo Langford - Pick #14
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It's a fair question. He's been in the league for 5 years. Jaylen 6. They aren't "young players" in the sense we use the word young players.
Avoid the question though because you know the answer. The young talent they've added over the last 3 years in the draft is near the bottom of the NBA.
We had similar arguments in the Grant thread, when some folks were laughed off for comparing him to Tucker. Yeah, he's not Tucker now, but neither was Tucker at this age. It took Tucker a while to turn into Tucker. It's not crazy to think that peak Grant might be peak Tucker, who was a valuable player.
We all bring our biases to the table. And most of us are decent at reconsidered our positions once presented with evidence. But the biases are still there.
Nah, it's a silly question when you're talking about under 24 talent, then say but don't include your under 24 all star. Just absurd.
As for the last three years of the draft, that's kinda how it works when you pick outside of the top ten.
Like, do you complain when you go to a car dealer only able to spend 20K on a car that you don't drive out with a BMW?
Yeah but that's another thing. Who cares if he's Tucker 6 years from now? Peak Grant may very well be a valuable player but how does that help the Celtics if it's in 2027 with the Cavs?
So I changed my question. Look at other teams who drafted outside the top 10. Look at the drafts. There was plenty of talent available after the top 10.
You are just using the weak old excuse of "Oh but they picked 14th and that's the expected outcome."
It's LAZY.
It's not like there was only 1 player drafted after AN and RL that are better than they are.
I agree. Even if it's a more reasonable 3 years from now, it's still not very meaningful now.
Just saying that it was an example of folks' biases. Some folks will never like Grant, Romeo, Marcus. Some love them even when they fuck up. Heck, I'm convinced that half the board still isn't sold on Jaylen because they had their heart set on someone else in that draft. We're human and get entrenched in our opinions sometimes.
Lol….of course nobody said he plays “basically plays starters minute” so there’s that. What I said was that he “nearly” plays starters minutes which is accurate at 19 mpg. On any given night you’ll find 40-60% of starters playing 30 min or less which is why 27-30 is a rough estimate of what I’d consider “starters minutes.”
27-30 minutes is starter minutes. 19 minutes isn't nearly 27 minutes. But I digress.
Not nearly as LAZY as asking the question, who has worse under 24 talent than the Celtics, but you can't include Tatum who's under 24? That's a snoozer.
And the "Oh but they picked 14th and that's the expected outcome" isn't an excuse, weak or otherwise. It's just facts.
Some guys picked after AN and RL look better than they do right now, some look worse. That's kinda how it goes picking later in the draft.
How many difference makers do you see picked after those guys? Even the guys who so far look like the best of the bunch would be bench players here right now. Then we'd be complaining about those guys and pining for whatever other guys picked at the end of the round that happened to be getting minutes based on their situation.
That's why I changed my question because I wasn't trying to be creative by excluding Tatum. And in those 3 years, the C's had 5 1st round picks and 2 at 14. To be in the bottom in talent added via the draft over the last 3 years, (4 if you include this year, which is not fair) is nota good thing.
And what is a difference maker? Are we talking Jaylen Brown level? The 2019 draft is kinda meh but Johnson and Poole would look nice.
What is Maxey? Cole Anthony? Bane? Bey?
And you are right that they look better or worse "right now" especially in regards to the 2020 draft. But I am judging based on the right now. Things can obviously change and I still have hopes for AN and ironically, the other JB, who I think has the potential to be better than anyone else taken the last 4 drafts. I say ironically because I'm not including that draft. Doesn't mean he gets there though. One player also changes everything. If the C's kept pick 30 and did take Bane, no one cares about AN and RL.
I'm not closing the book on anyone's future, just stating that right at this moment in time, the C's are among the worst in talented added via the draft from 19-21. Make all the excuses you want for it, doesn't change the fact.
let me put it this way. Since they drafted Tatum, without a pick above 14, they drafted a starter and two rotation players on good teams. Do you think that is above expected value, on par with expected value, or beliw expected value?
The other problem is developmental minutes. if Nesmith was on a non-contendrr, he'd probably be shooting over 35% on a high volume of 3Ps and some other highlight reel stuff while playing 30 mpg. And losing. But he'd probably look a lot better to us than he does now.
Here's the problem though. It's the 2019 draft. We don't know enough. Two months ago Cole Anthony looked like a bust and wouldn't be a part of this conversation.
Sometimes guys start out really great and never get back. Tyreke Evans, 2010 NBA Rookie of the Year.
Sometimes guys start out really great and never get back. Tyreke Evans, 2010 NBA Rookie of the Year.
Looking at the last 3 drafts, below. 2018 was incredibly deep.
And maybe you are right that AN (and RL) would be getting 30 minutes a game on other teams and we'd like them more. Or maybe, they'd be doing the same thing they are now and we'd dismiss them as injured goods and a guy who barely sees the court in year 2.
I don't get how Cole Anthony looked like a bust 2 months ago. He was a 20 year old rookie last year. He wasn't great, but he played 27.1 mpg and put up 12.9 points, 4.7 rebounds, 4.3 assists on .397/.337/.832 shooting. Compare that to AN or RL's rookie seasons and I just don't get it.
How is that a bust? If RL or AN did that their rookie year, we'd be excited for year 2 because young players often improve. We were excited anyway and our guys didn't really do anything. Not to mention Anthony was the 15th pick. I'd say he greatly outperformed that slot in his rookie year but 15 has been a jackpot in the draft. (Giannis, Kawhi)
What were people expecting Cole Anthony's 2nd year to look like exactly? No improvement whatsoever? With any type of growth, he was looking to be a solid player.
Putting aside the semantic distinction between "basically" and "nearly", the argument continues to be silly. By your metric, Lamarcus Aldridge (13.1 ppg) scores "nearly" as many points per game as James Harden (18.2 ppg). i.e.
1. 19 minutes per game is 70.3% of a starter who plays 27 minutes per game. (63.3% if we use 30 minutes)
2. 13.1 ppg is 71.9% of Harden's 18.2 ppg.
That tracks for you?
Fine. Bust may be too strong. He was under 40% shooter and was under 40% in college. His True Shooting percentage has gone through the roof this year. Nothing there led me to believe he was going to break out in a big way this year.
Edit: Don't take this as a defense of RL. I hope he turns into a useful piece.
Lol….of course nobody said he plays “basically plays starters minute” so there’s that. What I said was that he “nearly” plays starters minutes which is accurate at 19 mpg. On any given night you’ll find 40-60% of starters playing 30 min or less which is why 27-30
Ok this is silly. Would you agree that he has earned his top of bench rotation position and is firmly entrenched as a key piece of our rotation?
If you’re only looking at numbers then no. His work ethic was legendary in his one year at UNC where he showed strong leadership roles. These are not nothing factors. There may not be a more insane preparation and workout guy in the league and this kid is still a kid in his second year. Those guys generally hit their ceiling with their heads.
So far, we have no idea.
As I said, these are some of the guys that have shown more than RL and AN, and what would they be on this team?
They would be bench players just like RL and AN are now, and we'd be whining that they stink and we'd rather have whoever else would've gotten drafted after them and is getting minutes on a different team.
I'm old enough to remember Celtics fans whining incessantly about the Rozier pick for two seasons because he didn't get an opportunity to play. We could've had Jerian Grant! We could've had Rondae Hollis Jefferson!
We know nothing yet. And your repeated claims they have among the worst young talent in the league, with zero context, doesn't make it a fact.
Edit: I don't know why you keep saying you changed your question either. The question was what I responded to, and you still defended it as a fair question.
If AN or RL were on a trash team like the Magic instead of a team competing for a top 3 seed in the playoffs, they'd be putting up better stats due to consistent opportunity. It's hard to put up impressive numbers when you're competing for spot minutes in between Jaylen, Jayson, and Marcus. If Nesmith was on New Orleans in a pressure free role getting 25 minutes a night, I'm fairly confident he'd put up some good numbers.
I've been pretty hard on the Celtics drafts, particularly Pritchard because I don't really see the point in a player like him, but Robert Williams was a pretty f'ing great pick from a skills perspective (though he hasn't been consistently healthy). We have as good or better young talent than a lot of teams, particularly playoff teams, especially if you pull the "remove your best young player from the mix" - off the top of my head, Denver, Portland, Clippers, Lakers, Nets, Chicago, Dallas, Milwaukee, Utah, Pacers, Wizards, Pelicans (outside of Zion, the ledger is pretty weak... maybe just Trey Murphy is a possible starter). Contending teams that aren't in development mode almost by definition don't have a ton of young talent. Like Maxey and Thybulle are cool, but are they really that much better than the Celtics young players? The delta is not so wide it's insurmountable.
I'm still hoping/expecting development from these young wings and though they obviously won't explode into all-stars, being good bench pieces that don't hurt you much on D and O is really helpful. That's not to say we couldn't have done better - the other day, I was lamenting the possibility of Bey and Bane on this board - but it's not like these guys aren't NBA players.
These type of comments just make me roll my eyes. More young talent than the Wizards? The Bulls?
And according to posters on here, Romeo is getting "nearly starter minutes" anyway. He's not putting up better stats with the consistent opportunity. Which one is it?
All I hear are excuses for why the C's young players suck.
Okay - go ahead and roll your eyes, but also show your work. The Bulls have Patrick Williams and not much else - is he that much better, if at all, than Time Lord? I haven't seen it so far from him. The Wizards - who of Rui Hachimura, Deni Avdija, or Corey Kispert is better than Time Lord? Are those players on the Wizards even better than their Celtics wing counterparts? Hachimura isn't great at shooting from 3 or playing D, Avdija is not impressing anyone, and Kispert - who's older than Langford and Nesmith and supposedly pro-ready - is averaging about 11 minutes per game.
Ever heard of Thomas Bryant?
What about Coby White? I guess players currently on the DL don't count.
nm. Time Lord was already brought up.
I don't think Danny covered himself in glory the last few years but that was more due to not reading the Kyrie situation correctly, signing Kemba to a MAX and the TT deal (while tossing aside Bane)
Young players will always suck when not given a role & consistent minutes, that's a guarantee
I don't think Danny covered himself in glory the last few years but that was more due to not reading the Kyrie situation correctly, signing Kemba to a MAX and the TT deal (while tossing aside Bane)
Young players will always suck when not given a role & consistent minutes, that's a guarantee
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Thomas Bryant was drafted by the Lakers. And is Coby White good? Like slam dunk "he'll have a better career than Romeo Langford"? He's not a good enough passer to be a point guard and it's not like his shooting and D make up for it. How much time is he going to see when he comes off the DL for a team trying to reach the playoffs?
I don't think I'd trade Time Lord, Nesmith, Langford, Grant, and even Pritchard for Coby White and Patrick Williams. That's not even including Tatum.
I'd take White over Langford all day and I don't think it's particularly close.
At least it takes the focus off Nesmith’s 1-17 shooting outside of the Miami game. The cute thing is you’ll still see game thread posts of people wondering why Ime isn’t playing him.
I mentioned before having a chance to talk a to G-league coach. He said it par for the course you draft two guys the same position, even on consecutive drafts hoping one guy ends up a player. He thought unlikely romeo and Nesmith both make it, since there are minutes for one.
For his career so far, Langford is shooting 0.317 from three (including regular season and playoffs). But that was in only 82 shots and includes a 6 for 29 rookie year. Thus far this year he is at a non-sustainable 0.500 from three.
If he actually has (or develops) a decent 3 point shot, then he easily clears the "3&D" bar - the D is there already. That would set his NBA floor at "long career as a rotation player." If he doesn't actually have a decent 3 - and he hasn't shot enough for us to know for sure either way - then his floor is somewher between end of rotation player and "irregular minutes guy." But we are still talking about his floor.
He still has less than 1,000 NBA minutes and was drafted as a guy with offensive potential that he occasionaly flashes. So what the ceiling is is harder to say at this point.
If he actually has (or develops) a decent 3 point shot, then he easily clears the "3&D" bar - the D is there already. That would set his NBA floor at "long career as a rotation player." If he doesn't actually have a decent 3 - and he hasn't shot enough for us to know for sure either way - then his floor is somewher between end of rotation player and "irregular minutes guy." But we are still talking about his floor.
He still has less than 1,000 NBA minutes and was drafted as a guy with offensive potential that he occasionaly flashes. So what the ceiling is is harder to say at this point.
It's a chicken/egg situation. If you don't play him you guarantee he has ZERO value.
I mean we've gone through this with Rob Williams (who you hated & had the exact same analysis this time last year) last season, now Romeo and eventually, it will be Nesmith. It takes floor minutes for these guys to become productive.
I'd rather just spend 15mins/gm in Oct/Nov/Dec to get this guy up to speed for the eventual team injuries, rigors of the regular season and the potential blockbuster trade that will put the Celtics over the top in 2023.
The delta between Smart/Schroder/JRich minutes from 30-40 aren't that much better than Langford/Nesmith. DS/MS get absurdly sloppy with the ball when driven into the ground with excess minutes.
As we are in the Romeo thread, this wishcasting and skepticism is good. People are pretty polarized around this guy, which is also good. If he starts shooting 25% from 3pt, we won't be polarized.
Regurgitating whether Danny's hit rate on longshot draft positions is good enough probably doesn't move the conversation forward. Is anyone here arguing that Danny did well in the late lottery or lower? I don't see that. Let's all stipulate that has didn't exceed expectations there before someone writes a rock opera called The Ballad of Desmond Bane.
Regurgitating whether Danny's hit rate on longshot draft positions is good enough probably doesn't move the conversation forward. Is anyone here arguing that Danny did well in the late lottery or lower? I don't see that. Let's all stipulate that has didn't exceed expectations there before someone writes a rock opera called The Ballad of Desmond Bane.
Is TL your crutch? Not everyone ends up like TL and suggesting everyone is going to have the same development path is funny. Plus TL showed plenty of year over year improvement in rate stats from year 1 to year 2.
RL sucks. "But look at TL." AN sucks. "But look at TL." TL is nothing like RL and never has been. Other than injuries, anyway.
Some of us aren't just looking at stats. You can look at a player type and role and presume some level of growth into those roles over time. If Romeo Langford is a league average shooter with his level of defense and a little bit of on-ball creativity, he's going to be a valuable two-way player. If Nesmith is an above average shooter with his effort and D, he's going to be a decent 3 and D wing.
You can disagree that the shooting will come around, but neither of those outcomes are outlandish. That's why you draft guys in those roles. Now, I wish Nesmith was Bey, but he's not, and there's still a possibility he becomes a decent two.
So, actually, it is a lot like TL because TL is a player type worth banking on and expecting development from. Any wing who can develop into a defender AND a shooter is the same. Development isn't linear or consistent, but if players have baseline competence and athleticism with the right work ethic, they're likely going to be starters/rotation players in this league.
You're making some pretty extreme declarations in this thread. I'm still waiting to hear about this amazing young Wizards core of even higher lottery picks that wouldn't even see Langford/Nesmith level minutes on this Celtics team.
Yeah, I didn't mean to rehash the Ainge drafting debate. He also did fine outside of the lottery for the most part.
I was more focused on the lack of young, promising talent on the team with rookie deals the team has added over the last 4 seasons. The 2018 draft was fine landing TL at 27. In my redraft thread, I had him 10th I think. I saw another publication at 8. They get points for that. They get less points than they would if it were any other draft as 2018 was stacked. Still, a top 10 talent with pick 27. They had 7 first round picks in that period (traded 2) and to show for it have TL and Al Horford. Of course, that's closely linked to Danny Ainge so I can see why he was brought up. Big Al is great but he's not in the same window as the Jays, TL and Smart.
Plus the play time for Langford is legit because it's injury based but for someone like Nesmith, not really. "If he were on a lottery team..." Grant Williams played 1138 minutes last year, Semi played 950. There were minutes, Nesmith just couldn't crack the rotation. And Grant didn't put up numbers with his time.
I think RL ends up having a long career as the 8-10th man in the rotation, playing 10-15 minutes a game as a defensive specialist. He has an outside chance of bumping that up to 20-25 if he can hit the 3 at a DS/MS/JRich level of competence. I see that as his peak as as shooter. If he somehow surpasses that and becomes an average or better shooter, then starter is in play. I don't see that happening at all, but stranger things. I don't think his ceiling is all much higher than his floor and think he's pretty much already the 9th-10th guy in the rotation. Going into last season, I thought he'd be JB mini but I just didn't see the type of growth I wanted to see in a very limited sample size last year. I soured on him a bit.
Last year, I thought/was hoping AN would develop into a 25-30 minute rotation player by year 3, averaging something like 15.0 points, 6.0 rebounds, 2.0 assists on .430/.400/.8xx shooting on 7-9 3PA/G. Every DNP-CD or game that he plays 6 or 7 minutes makes me think that's less and less likely to happen and more that HRB is right. I'm still a far way from agreeing with HRB on AN tho, as it's far too early to change my opinion on Nesmith... It's 11 games into year 2. If he's still racking up DNP-CDs by March/April, I'll have to readjust.
Grant Williams, I was probably the biggest hater on the board. Now, I'm probably his biggest fan and I still think he sucks. He's a guy who has a role on every NBA team though, even if it's just 10 minutes a night. He offers a different look, 6 fouls and can hit an open 3. He's not the type of player I'd take in the 20s (I'd go for ceiling or clear role, so TL, PP, Bane) but so be it. He seems to be a "try hard." Most of the time that's an insult, but in this case, it's a compliment.
PP is extremely limited and is mostly a one trick pony but that one trick plays out in the NBA. I thought he'd be playing a lot more this year as the C's lack shooting but that hasn't been the case. I think he's pretty close to his ceiling too. I can see him improving a little as a playmaker. He might need to, because in today's NBA, you need to do more than shoot and he's seen a huge cut in minutes. Some of that may be mask related and that he hasn't been connected on his shot, but he's playing about 50% less minutes than last year, has a DNP CD and 2 games where he played less than 3 minutes. Over the last 5 games, he's averaging 6.3 mpg. In his first 5, he was at 15.0 mpg, but did have one DNP CD after Game 4.
Edwards I hated from the get go and took so much flak for it. I said he'd be out of the league in a few years. The first time he stepped on an NBA court in a regular season game, I just knew. He's also a 2nd round pick so missing here is actually a nothing burger. 2nd rounders are house money. Ironically, I think he'll be back and become his nickname (Eddie House).
I thought there was like a 25% chance Waters would develop into a useful 3rd string PG if he could limit the TO. He even had me excited for a little while with his G league play and was getting national press. But by the end of his rookie year, all that went away and wrote him off.
I think Yam has about the same chance as Waters to develop into a useful 3rd string PG, and like a 10% chance to be more than that. While he's not super athletic or long, he seems athletic enough and he's not a smurf.
And out of all these players (TL included) I think Juhann Begarin has the highest ceiling of the bunch, but only has a 3-5% chance of getting there. He's either going to be as good or better than Jaylen Brown or he's not going to make the NBA at all. He's got NBA length, NBA athleticism and is starting to show NBA skill. Players like him don't really have a lot of outcomes. It's like Giannis or Bruno and nothing in between. That's a bit extreme but it's a swing for the fence pick. I will always support these type of picks. Take all the Time Lords you want.
I don't even a real opinion on the RL pick on draft night. Great length, decent athleticism. That's fine. AN pick was fine too. Neither the RL or AN pick worked out the way I wanted them to (yet, anyway) but at least they didn't take Kelly Olynyk. I don't care if KO is a decent pick at the 14 slot, he doesn't move the needle either way. You aren't going to struggle replacing KO if instead you drafted a bust at 14. At least swing for a player whose 1-2% outcome is a star player.
Anyway, I didn't mean for it to be a discussion about Ainge's drafting but the topic is too closely linked to separate the 2. And again, all it takes is one player to change everything. Last year, it was looking even worse before TL emerged as more than a bench big. If AN turns into the player I want him to be, the draft period is a success. If RL turns into a .360-.380 3 point shooter, same deal.
At this current time though, I think the 2018-2020 infusion of talent from the draft was near the bottom. That's really unfair to TL because the 2018 draft was above average. 2019 and 2020 just drag down the average. In the context of "best young players on rookie contracts" not having a pick in 2021 also hurts them. The 2020 draft is also way too early to judge but a few of the players drafted after AN look to be real deals already. We are hoping AN develops into that. The 2019 draft is a little early to be judging but I don't think egregiously so. Come February, we'll have a pretty solid idea. Lots of players make leaps in year 4 but those players usually established themselves in their first 2.5-3 seasons. Jaylen Brown, Miles. Langford still has plenty of time this season to do so but if he's averaging 6.1 points, 2.1 rebounds, 0.6 assists, 0.3 steals, 0.1 blocks in 18.7 mpg at the end of the year on .420/.333/.720 shooting, It's hard to envision him ever being more than what he already is. His rate % are flat or down 7 games in.
These are career %, just for fun.
Rebound %: Semi 12.2%, Romeo 6.3%
Assist %: Semi 4.1%, Romeo 5.0%
Steal %: Semi 0.9%, Romeo 1.0%
Block %: Semi 0.3% Romeo 1.7%
TO%: Semi 9.4%, Romeo 12.0%
USage: Semi 10.7%, Romeo 11.8%.
How does a 6'4 player with a 6'11 wingspan have a 1.0% steal rate?
This year, Semi has a 1.1% Steal rate and 0.7% block rate in the early going. Langford at 0.8% and 0.7%.
Way too long a post /ramble.
Rui would see more minutes than Langford and Nesmith combined and I mistakenly thought Bryant was drafted by the Wizards (the Lakers waived him, Wizards claimed him for nothing) and thought he was in year 4, not year 5. If you think RL and AN are comparable to Rui, I don't want to say to that. It's like saying Cole Anthony was a bust after his rookie season, which someone said.
And using FVV and Jimmy Butler for player comparisons is bad. Were you not here to see all the PP/FVV comparisons? They were slightly better than the Grant Williams/Draymond Green comparisons anyway. It's almost like Jimmy Butler and FVV are outliers.
Maybe I wouldn't need to make such statements if people didn't make such comparisons.
Then, on top of that, they say things like "Who compared Grant Williams to Draymond Green? That's silly" So you quote the person asking you that question literally making the comparison.
Kind of like Carsen Edwards is yours?
Every youngster sucks! because I told you all after Summer League Carsen wasn't going to amount to anything
I'm not sure why people are so quick to write guys off after seeing them play so few minutes. Its such a rash, rush to judgement.
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Also, the Wizards were just as good as the C's last year and have been better in the early going this year.
Actually, since the beginning of last season, the Wiz are 42-41, The C's are 41-42.
Why is it so much harder to crack the C's lineup than the Wiz? Sorry, but the C's are closer to the Wizard than they are a title contender.
Actually, since the beginning of last season, the Wiz are 42-41, The C's are 41-42.
Why is it so much harder to crack the C's lineup than the Wiz? Sorry, but the C's are closer to the Wizard than they are a title contender.
I said it about Grant Williams and Romeo Langford too. I also didn't say anything about Carsen Edwards until he played in a regular season NBA game because the summer league is a joke. The only player I ever judged based on summer league play was Semi Ojeleye and I called him a bum who would never amount to anything. People gave me flak for that too. "It's the first summer league game." Yeah, it's all I needed.
And I was a TL fan. Never said he sucked. Never said PP sucked either and thought he'd be playing 20 minutes a game this year. The only issue I ever had with TL was the fear of him getting a 4/80-4/100 contract but that's not an issue any more. I was also a big fan of AN pick. My love of the pick isn't as strong as a year ago because I have new information.
Maybe I judge players based on their own merits rather than of a completely different type of player. RL has nothing at all to do with TL. Just like PP has nothing to do with FVV or Grant Williams has nothing to do with Draymond Green. Great comparison by the way.
Who cares if people were wrong about TL? It has no bearing at all on RL. How about any time you try to predict how a player turns out, I say "How about Grant Williams?"
The wing rotation on the Wizards this year is KCP, Kyle Kuzma, Beal (kinda I guess?) Kispert, Bertans, Rui, and Avdija. Last year it included Bonga, Troy Brown, Jerome Robinson, Garrison Matthews, Chandler Hutchinson, Bertans, Avdija, Rui, and Beal (kinda).
So, unless you think Rui, Avdija, and Kispert are competing with Beal for minutes, there's not a Jaylen Brown or Jayson Tatum in the bunch. Their bench is much better this year, so let's see how many minutes Rui gets - I'm guessing he cuts into the 20 Avdija is getting vs. anyone else in that group. And in terms of last year, who of that group (besides Beal) is even better than Marcus Smart? It's a little easier for those young guys to get on the floor when they're going up against guys who are barely NBA players. In terms of this year, as good as Kuzma and KCP have been, they're not all-star or all-NBA level players.
When is Rui playing on this Celtics team with his defense and his lack of outside shooting? Our young guys get benched for minor brain farts. What would happen with him? I think Grant would get more minutes than him despite being a much less talented offensive player.
And RE: FVV and PP - I don't think anyone was asserting "PP will be FVV" they were pointing out that they're similar player types - short, four year point guards that aren't really distributors but they can shoot the hell out of the ball. The ideal outcome for PP would be FVV, but he's unlikely to get there. Same with Grant and Draymond - that's his 99th percentile outcome. Maybe I'm wrong, but that was my interpretation of those discussions. Your issue seems to be more with player comps in general rather than these specific examples. Grant could've developed into Draymond, he could also develop into Omari Spellman. Why be a fan of a team if you think he's going to become the latter?
Why do people act as if the Celtics were so much better than the Wizards last year? They went 34-38, the C's were 36-36. All those young players having such an easy time getting on the floor going up against guys who are barely NBA players. You mean like Semi Ojeleye and Grant Williams? If Rui was on the C's last year, he's still playing 30 minutes a game. The C's are not a deep team, they weren't last year and they aren't this year.
Last year's version of the C's and this year's version of the C's will be closer to a play in game than a home seed. Again, the Wiz are 42-41 since last year, the C's are 41-42.
Yet the C's are such a great team that it's impossible for young players to get any playing time, even though young player Grant Williams got consistent playing time. Semi played 950 minutes. Carsen, Edwards, and Jevonte played close to 1000 minutes combined. Jabari, Kornet and Teague took up another 1000. They had time to give to AN, they just chose not to. They probably would have given RL minutes, but he was never available.
The Celtics "great depth" is not what is preventing the young players from playing. It's that they aren't better then the guys they are going up against who are barely NBA players, the same guys the Wiz are beating out for minutes.
And hoping for Grant Williams to be Draymond Green isn't being a fan. It's being a homer. Maybe go for a median outcome, like Oliver Miller.
I think I was replying to HRB (not you) who said TL played nervous, out of control, had no future last season.
He has used the same exact descriptors for Nesmith this season. Word for word.
Of course AN's nervous, he's excited about doing well. The guy plays hard/hustles, which makes up for his lack of lateral quickness on D. And unless every NBA scout is wrong and practice is a complete fraud, he can shoot 3s
I think you are right saying the Celtics are closer to the Wizards than to a Championship-level team. Which is one more reason to not overplay DS/MS to sacrifice RL/AN minutes.
If it was a mental make up comparison, that's fair and their development would be linked. I'm not a psychologist and don't know these players so I try to stick to stuff that can be measured. I got on Grant for coming into camp fat entering his 2nd season with a chance to earn serious minutes. Everyone could see Grant's waistline though. That's about as far as I'll go into the mental make up game.
Nesmith does try hard and I think his shot is as advertised. I fear his D is passable/hideable in the regular season but in the playoffs, teams can pick him apart. His footwork needs some work. I fear the opposite for Romeo. His offense is passable during the regular season, but in the playoffs, the c's will be playing 4 on 5.
Someone said before if you could combine the 2 players, you'd have a max guy. Ignoring the fact that if you took any 2 NBA players and combined them, they'd be a max guy, that statement is so true. They are 2 opposites. One's strength is the other one's weakness. I remember when the board was worried there wouldn't be room for both of them, which one we would rather have work out, and which one we would pay and which one we would let walk if both did. The board was pretty split.
edit: Well, not any 2. Carsen + Waters wouldn't be even close. Fall + Bruno would be the best player to ever play the game though.
I mean, I think that you're right that Hachimura would have played over Grant and Ojelye because he is better than them, but also because he primarily plays the 4 like they do as well. Cleaning the Glass characterizes him as a big and he plays all of his minutes as a 4/5. I don't really see what that has to do with Nesmith or Romeo by extension. Nesmith and Romeo don't really play the same position or match up against the same players as Hachimura.They're competing for minutes with Brown, Tatum and Smart on this roster and now Richardson as well, that's the point people are making, and I don't really understand why it's invalid based on what you're saying.
I appreciate the value you bring to the Port Cellar as a poster, but I think sometimes you do the thing that people do on Twitter where they invent a person to be mad at. I don't really think "Grant Williams is going to be Draymond Green" was a widely held position on this forum and I feel like the onus is on you to come up with the receipts instead of just declaring it and acting like it's a thing. Maybe it's a thing on Celtics twitter or other places, but I don't think it's a thing here.
Lol, people are shitting on HRB for saying "Romeo Langford's likely outcome is James Posey". Regardless of the stylistics or physical comparisons, HRB is comparing Langford to a dude who averaged 8 points a game for his career and he's getting told like "Whoa, hold your horses, Romeo sucks." So, I just don't see it. I'd say most people here are fairly measured in their analysis of the young players. I want the receipts on the posters here who are saying hyperbolic stuff about Romeo, Grant and Nesmith. I'd say there are 10x the number of drive bys about how Romeo sucks and can't shoot and will never stay healthy than there are posts like HRBs comparing him to Posey. I don't really recall seeing a ton of folks on here saying any of them was even going to be a star or starter in this league, useful roleplayers seems to be the general consensus around these guys.
Also, you keep talking about the Wizards young talent, they literally have 1 player under 25 in their rotation right now in Deni Avdija. They're winning because they turned Russ into some useful veteran depth and added replaced Russ's spot in the lineup with Dinwiddie. Aaron Holiday is good, too. They're an interesting team, but I feel like their regular season success thus far is attributable to adding veteran talent, it has nothing to do with their young talent or home grown talent, and we'll see if they sustain it. I just don't get the comparison.
Where am I saying that the Celtics are a great team? Their wing depth is just different and better. Say what you want about Semi, he would be in the right place on defense, which is obviously a priority to Brad (and why Rui probably wouldn't beat out Semi last year in the same situation). I'm not sure what Carsen Edwards, Luke Kornet and Jeff Teague have to do with a competition for wing minutes, but keep banging your drum and ignoring context.
RE: Grant/Dray - there's an obvious difference between likelihood and hope. It's a folly to think that 99% of draft picks will become an all-star or all-NBA. I don't think it's likely that Grant becomes Draymond, but I hope, as a fan, that he becomes as good as he can possibly be... because that's the point of rooting for a team. You want to see good basketball played by good players. You want to see Grant become maybe 80% of Dray because that's the prototype for how an unathletic, short, strong, decent shooting power forward can make an impact in the league. You shouldn't expect him to do that, but that's what you're rooting for as a fan and it doesn't make you a homer to root for that. I'm not sure why you can't tell the difference between these two things when it seems like a self-explanatory distinction.