Romeo Langford - Pick #14

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,683
Before making these claims you really should read the trade rules.

Charlotte only had enough cap space to sign Rozier to an MLE deal. That was it. Anything over that required Boston's help. But that was complicated by the BYC rules, which kicked in because Walker's salary nearly tripled.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,741
Before making these claims you really should read the trade rules.

Charlotte only had enough cap space to sign Rozier to an MLE deal. That was it. Anything over that required Boston's help. But that was complicated by the BYC rules, which kicked in because Walker's salary nearly tripled.
And why do you think Roziers' salary would need to be artifically inflated because of BYC rules?
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,683
Let's try it this way to see if light dawns on Marblehead, why was the contract written in reverse? If the BYC rules didn't apply, why not just pay him $18.9 million per year? Or do it the old fashioned way with two years of raises? Why is the contract literally backwards?
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,741
Let's try it this way to see if light dawns on Marblehead, why was the contract written in reverse? If the BYC rules didn't apply, why not just pay him $18.9 million per year? Or do it the old fashioned way with two years of raises? Why is the contract literally backwards?
Maybe so they'd have more cap space the following summer when a guy like Gordon Hayward might be available?

Not sure, but I know it wasn't to match up with the Celtics.

Because it doesn't.

I answered you, so maybe you'll answer me this time.

Why would Charlotte artificially inflate a contract due to BYC rules? If anything, that would signal a need to deflate it.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
12,951
Maybe so they'd have more cap space the following summer when a guy like Gordon Hayward might be available?

Not sure, but I know it wasn't to match up with the Celtics.

Because it doesn't.

I answered you, so maybe you'll answer me this time.

Why would Charlotte artificially inflate a contract due to BYC rules? If anything, that would signal a need to deflate it.
Rozier still had to agree to come to Charlotte. Had the Hornets offered MLE money instead, Rozier could have decided to take his talents to another team instead. So Charlotte overpaid slightly to be sure they got their player to replace Kemba.

As for Kemba, I don't think it was reasonable to assume he would have gotten hurt halfway through his first season. The median outcome would have been 2 healthy seasons, foillowed by injury and decline in years 3 and 4, with the worst case him being vastly overpaid on an expiring deal in year 4. Ainge signed Kemba for years 1 and 2; may have even worked out last season had Hayward not sprained his ankle in the bubble.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,741
Yeah, Boston made it a S&T because they thought they might be able to keep Horford.
Horfords agent announced he was already gone on June 30th.

That plan would've involved Brooklyn agreeing to an S&T for Kyrie if Boston could've kept Horford, since the Kemba/Rozier S&T necessitated Boston using cap space to fit Kemba(therefore having to renounce Horford if he wasn't already gone)

Boston just made it a S&T to get a small asset.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
22,162
Horfords agent announced he was already gone on June 30th.

That plan would've involved Brooklyn agreeing to an S&T for Kyrie if Boston could've kept Horford, since the Kemba/Rozier S&T necessitated Boston using cap space to fit Kemba(therefore having to renounce Horford if he wasn't already gone)

Boston just made it a S&T to get a small asset.
Based on tweets, Rozier's S&T deal was leaked hours before Horford chose PHI, as there were a bunch of tweets that they were still talking, and that the S&T was to free up the chance to get Horford back. Horford decided to move on, they recalibrated and brought back Theis and added Kanter. The S&T was about Horford flexibility. Also, there was never a S&T on the table with Kyrie.

The Celtics were hoping to... re-sign Horford at a lower number... decreasing his salary from the 38M of the cap hold, renounce the detrius, S&T Kemba, use the extra room if any then use the room exception. They could offer Horford a starting salary up to $23.85M and still do the Kemba S&T.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,741
Based on tweets, Rozier's S&T deal was leaked hours before Horford chose PHI, as there were a bunch of tweets that they were still talking, and that the S&T was to free up the chance to get Horford back. Horford decided to move on, they recalibrated and brought back Theis and added Kanter. The S&T was about Horford flexibility. Also, there was never a S&T on the table with Kyrie.

The Celtics were hoping to... re-sign Horford at a lower number... decreasing his salary from the 38M of the cap hold, renounce the detrius, S&T Kemba, use the extra room if any then use the room exception. They could offer Horford a starting salary up to $23.85M and still do the Kemba S&T.

Again, they couldn't. Rozier didn't make enough to make an S&T for Kemba work without using cap space.

And yes, there was never a S&T on the table with Kyrie.

The rumor at the time was if the Celtics wanted to keep Horford, they would have to work out a S&T with Brooklyn for Kyrie and had talks on it.

Steve Bulpett talked about it here

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/10/12/deal-to-keep-al-horford-with-celtics-was-discussed/
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
22,162
Again, they couldn't. Rozier didn't make enough to make an S&T for Kemba work without using cap space.

And yes, there was never a S&T on the table with Kyrie.

The rumor at the time was if the Celtics wanted to keep Horford, they would have to work out a S&T with Brooklyn for Kyrie and had talks on it.

Steve Bulpett talked about it here

https://www.bostonherald.com/2019/10/12/deal-to-keep-al-horford-with-celtics-was-discussed/
I literally just laid out how to open the cap space. If they renounced the scrubs and signed Horford for under $24M they would have had the exact amount of cap space that they needed for the S&T to work.
Bulpett isn't citing a source there, he's speculating because he doesn't know how the cap works
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,741
I literally just laid out how to open the cap space. If they renounced the scrubs and signed Horford for under $24M they would have had the exact amount of cap space that they needed for the S&T to work.
Bulpett isn't citing a source there, he's speculating because he doesn't know how the cap works
The cap that year was 109.

Just Hayward+Smart+Tatum+Brown+Horford at 24M would be just over 83M

So, can you literally lay out again how to open the cap space to get Kemba, much less the rest of the roster, in there at 32.7M?
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
22,162
The cap that year was 109.

Just Hayward+Smart+Tatum+Brown+Horford at 24M would be just over 83M

So, can you literally lay out again how to open the cap space to get Kemba, much less the rest of the roster, in there at 32.7M?
I missed one of the rookies (Romeo I think) so I was slightly off
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/2019/
Kemba, Hayward, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Romeo is 92M, add both Williams' gets you to 96.68 ish... so 22M and some change for Horford.

Edit- technically 20.4 or so with the 2 incomplete roster holds
 
Last edited:

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,741
I missed one of the rookies (Romeo I think) so I was slightly off
https://www.spotrac.com/nba/boston-celtics/cap/2019/
Kemba, Hayward, Smart, Tatum, Brown, Romeo is 92M, add both Williams' gets you to 96.68 ish... so 22M and some change for Horford.

Edit- technically 20.4 or so with the 2 incomplete roster holds
I think those 8 guys add up to just short of 100M, then add the incomplete roster holds, Yabusele(either pre-waived or after), but even if I'm too high...

your original 96.68M ish leaves you 12.34M ish under the 109M ish cap.

Way short.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
23,781
I just re-read the KW trade thread. I'm not sure we know exactly why the Cs did the S&T.

We do know a couple of things: (!) TRoz had to be renounced to sign KW; (ii) CHA couldn't have signed TRoz without a S&T; and (iii) it didn't seem like anyone else was offering TRoz that kind of $.

So it's entirely possible that the Cs worked on the S&T with CHA because they were trying to preserve exceptions or sign Horford but at the end of the day, the Cs probably did it as a favor to TRoz to maximize his $.

BTW, here's Bobby Marks breaking down the Cs cap situation: View: https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/1144228041293467649
. I would have been interested in seeing the Cs where they resigned TRoz and signed Vuc.
 

Devizier

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 3, 2000
14,958
Somewhere
Isn’t it possible* that had the Celtics re-signed Rozier that we are still sitting here wondering how the Celtics can get over the hump? I think you sign max guys because that’s where your best value can be found. Kemba was never top of the heap but he was very good and Lebron was never coming here anyways.

*Likely
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,741
And yet the $960k reduction didn’t have any impact on the Hayward signing at all. Try again.
And yet, that doesn't matter, right?

They knew they'd have cap space last summer, they knew they were over the cap the previous summer.

So, why wouldn't they frontload the contract to take a bigger hit when they were over the cap, and take a smaller one to have more cap space the following summer? PS, they ended up using cap space to sign Bismack Biyombo, and also their 2nd rounders to bigger contracts.

So, are you ever going to show the math to why Rozier had to start at literally 19.9M to make the trade work or are you just going to keep throwing shots at me?

Is it dawn over there yet?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
23,781
So here are two articles that explain the cap rules of the 3-way deal: https://www.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/c7ai86/update_wnew_details_if_the_hornets_are_willing_to/ and https://theathletic.com/1055913/2019/06/30/leroux-breakdown-of-the-complicated-nets-hornets-and-celtics-sign-and-trade/

There were BYC issues but they meant that CHA had to pay Rozier at lease $12.2M. Remember CHA had few avenues to get a PG since CHA was over the cap and the contract was seen to be a massive overpay. The one thing CHA could do was structure it as a descending contract to (i) improve the cap situation in later years and (ii) make the contract easier to move at the end if need be.

Here's one more article that talks about the cap gymnastics: https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2019/07/06/breaking-down-the-deal-that-got-kemba-walker-to-the-celtics/
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,786
Boston wasn't "losing a max salary slot". After Horford and Irving left they were under the cap and signed Walker into cap space. Rozier was sent to Charlotte in a two way sign & trade as a favor to the Hornets, which is why they returned the favor in the Hayward situation.
Was it a favor or did the Celtics have to renounce Rozier to open up the necessary space to be able to max Kemba along while also including the 15% trade kicker in a sign-n-trade to sweeten the pot?

Edit: oooops, already being discussed
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
23,781
Was it a favor or did the Celtics have to renounce Rozier to open up the necessary space to be able to max Kemba along while also including the 15% trade kicker in a sign-n-trade to sweeten the pot?
Neither. Cs would have had to renounce TRoz if they didn't do the S&T but that never happened.

Note that the articles I posted above said that the Cs operated as an over-the-cap team the entire time giving them the full MLE. The issue was that they were trying to preserve space to possibly re-sign Horford even once they were hard-capped due to the S&T. They had over $20M of cap space to do that but Al wouldn't bite.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,786
Rozier still had to agree to come to Charlotte. Had the Hornets offered MLE money instead, Rozier could have decided to take his talents to another team instead. So Charlotte overpaid slightly to be sure they got their player to replace Kemba.

As for Kemba, I don't think it was reasonable to assume he would have gotten hurt halfway through his first season. The median outcome would have been 2 healthy seasons, foillowed by injury and decline in years 3 and 4, with the worst case him being vastly overpaid on an expiring deal in year 4. Ainge signed Kemba for years 1 and 2; may have even worked out last season had Hayward not sprained his ankle in the bubble.
All This^^^^

Rozier was a FA. No sign-n-trade is completed without Rozier agreeing to sign first. Both teams had a position to fill so it was a natural fit but if Rozier had a better offer elsewhere that is the place he would have signed.

Nobody expected Kemba to go down with an injury early in Year 1 but we were discussing his previous knee surgeries along with the wear and tear of being a 6-foot guard......with previous knee surgeries caused by wear and tear. I recall my position clearly in that this would end up an awful contract toward the middlr of the deal and not only the end, he wouldn’t be putting up Charlotte offensive numbers thus limiting his value since he is passable at best defensively, and that the knee would be a problem during his contract. I thought he’d be a solid starter in first two years but certainly not a Max guy and that Jordan was getting this one right. I wasn’t super opposed to the deal as we couldn’t not afford to lose Kyrie, Rozier, MaMo and Horford without filling out our rotation with good players while Tatum and Brown still had not yet been extended.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,786
Interesting Rozier contract talk. What does this have to do with Romeo Langford?
It goes back to how to properly evaluate “upside” with Romeo coming up on a contract soon. Too many times people quote metrics when evaluating a (to steal an old SNL line) “Not ready for prime time player.” The NBA is so different than baseball where a young players metrics coming up through the minors to best mirror their growth curve alone can give you a ton of information. If you are looking only at metrics for a young NBA player while competing against mature NBA players you are flat out doing it all wrong. I feel next season will show up so much more, both pros and cons, with Romeo after having his first full offseason since he left high school......and I’ve seen a lot of growth from him even without this normality. We shall see.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,683
And yet, that doesn't matter, right?
It literally doesn’t. Here, let’s try it this way, add the salaries for year one and year three and then divide by two. Now look at the result and compare it to what he’s getting paid in year two. And then tell me how much money they saved by writing the contract in reverse,
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
23,781
It literally doesn’t. Here, let’s try it this way, add the salaries for year one and year three and then divide by two. Now look at the result and compare it to what he’s getting paid in year two. And then tell me how much money they saved by writing the contract in reverse,
A $18M contract is more moveable than a $20M contract. Not to mention that when CHA signed TRoz, they were in cap jail so it made some sense to front load the contract so long as they retained room in 2019 to use the full MLE, which they did.

It likely will not have made a difference if CHA had structured TRoz's contract as flat or increasing but give them credit for doind something smart that could have marginally helped if TRoz had underperformed - rather than over performed - his contract.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
16,496
All this because I said he'd have signed for Smart money. 4/60 instead of 3/57. He was smart or lucky to go for 3. He's gonna get paid again after next season. I'm guessing for more than 19 mil.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,683
A $18M contract is more moveable than a $20M contract. Not to mention that when CHA signed TRoz, they were in cap jail so it made some sense to front load the contract so long as they retained room in 2019 to use the full MLE, which they did.
Neither salary is a millstone. And it’s not like the extra two million is going to cost more to dump. “Oh, I’m sorry, your guy makes $20 million, that’s going to be two firsts, now, if you could shave two million off that we’ll only ask for one.”

To be brutally frank, if your goal is trading the deal as an expiring, you actually prefer $20 million as it gets you more flexibility in a trade for a better player. It allows you to take back an extra $2.5 million in any deal. Have a look at the Boston trade fantasy threads in this forum and the convolutions that people are forced to go through to construct viable Boston trades due to the lack of middling salaries to use.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
3,741
It literally doesn’t. Here, let’s try it this way, add the salaries for year one and year three and then divide by two. Now look at the result and compare it to what he’s getting paid in year two. And then tell me how much money they saved by writing the contract in reverse,
Here, let's try it this way.

You still have yet to show why "Rozier was paid, literally, the exact amount of money in year one to make the trade work, with his salary declining every year thereafter."

Do you plan on doing that at some point?

If you won't, I'll just assume it's because you can't because it's incorrect and you don't want to admit that because you were acting like a dick.

I'll stop posting about this until you show your work on that statement.

Sorry for going way down this road on this tangent to everybody else.
 

Lose Remerswaal

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Trading the Desmond Bane pick was a mistake. A mature 50/40/80% college wing with an NBA body would have been perfect for this rotation. Pick Isaiah Steward at 16, PP, and get your wing in Bane at 30 and the Celtics would have been a solid group of cost controlled players who can actually step in and play.

Hopefully, Fournier can make up for both 14th picks not being ready to play solid rotation minutes this season, and they can get better over the summer.
Bane named to 2nd team Rookie All NBA

42032
 

Eddie Jurak

Go Leafs Go
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
31,862
Melrose, MA
Karalis has a piece on Romeo:

https://www.bostonsportsjournal.com/2021/08/04/romeo-langford-sees-opportunity-in-front-of-him

This is the most important summer of Langford’s young NBA career. With Celtics observers picking sides over whether he does or does not have the potential to make an impact, and with Langford’s time in Boston potentially hanging in the balance, he’s finally able to focus on the things that will make all those determinations.

What makes Langford so interesting is that he came into the league with a reputation as a scorer. The thumb injury that caused him issues at Indiana dropped his draft stock, and Danny Ainge bit at the potential for a big hit on an injured talent.

“I feel like I really haven’t shown just about anything that I’m really capable of doing,” he said “I felt like coming into the NBA I really wasn’t known as a defender, but I felt like I’ve shown that I’m capable of playing defense and playing it pretty good. So that’s just an add-on of what I’m capable of doing.”
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,967
If Romeo is truly capable of scoring at the NBA level and motivated to show he can do so.....we should see him put on an MVP-like clinic in Vegas. This could be fun.
Still think summer league will be cancelled?
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
4,632
I hope he becomes a player, but so far Romeo is like the guy showing up for spring training 'best shape of his life' .
Yeah, let's hope this isn't James Young redux. I fell every preseason for the stories about Young's newfound commitment to the game.

That said, I think Romeo has more basketball IQ in his injured thumb than Young had in his whole body.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,786
Yeah, let's hope this isn't James Young redux. I fell every preseason for the stories about Young's newfound commitment to the game.

That said, I think Romeo has more basketball IQ in his injured thumb than Young had in his whole body.
Young never showed he could do anything at an NBA level though while Romeo was not out of place playing big minites in playoff games. Apples and Oranges from my seat.
 

bigq

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
6,967
It doesn’t look like it. They have protocols in place that they are discussing so looks like a go which is great.
Glad to hear it and I hope you are correct. I think the baby Cs are going to be a lot of fun to watch.
 

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
4,632
Young never showed he could do anything at an NBA level though while Romeo was not out of place playing big minites in playoff games. Apples and Oranges from my seat.
I was just referring to the offseason stories on Young, which were the basketball equivalent of "reporting to spring training in the best shape of my life." They popped up every fall until the C's finally cut him loose.

There's no comparison between the two players.
 

NomarsFool

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 21, 2001
5,382
This is off topic, but I loved the spring training stories about how “Player A looks like he has put on 25 pounds of muscle and is poised to really show his power” and “Player B has dropped weight to improve his bat speed and is poised to really show his power”
 

JM3

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 14, 2019
1,042
Actually, statistically speaking, James Young was better than Romeo has been in every single aspect of basketball except free throws & blocks, including advanced defensive stats.

But yeah, I'm not actually giving up hope & is a tiny sample-size.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
21,786
Actually, statistically speaking, James Young was better than Romeo has been in every single aspect of basketball except free throws & blocks, including advanced defensive stats.

But yeah, I'm not actually giving up hope & is a tiny sample-size.
Wasn’t most of Young’s work done in 4Q blowouts though? That is my recollection anyway.