Romeo Langford - Pick #14

lovegtm

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It’s the most learnable skill which is why I’m far from giving up on this player.
He gets lumped in with Grant as a disappointment/low-odds guy for some reason (draft class?), but the situations are very different. I'm still extremely bullish on Romeo. He didn't even really have injury issues after the wrist recovered this year--he just got really screwed with covid luck.
 

128

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RadSox may beg to differ, but I thought Romeo was really solid at both ends last nite.

No matter how the first-round series plays out, and I suspect the Nets will sweep, it should be a valuable experience for Romeo and Nesmith.
 

Eddie Jurak

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RadSox may beg to differ, but I thought Romeo was really solid at both ends last nite.

No matter how the first-round series plays out, and I suspect the Nets will sweep, it should be a valuable experience for Romeo and Nesmith.
Payton Pritchard got destroyed by Ish Smith early in the game. Going to the bigger, longer Langford on Ish was key to winning the game.
 

Jimbodandy

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Payton Pritchard got destroyed by Ish Smith early in the game. Going to the bigger, longer Langford on Ish was key to winning the game.
Size helped us a lot. Both Romeo and Aaron size up well against that team.

Still we dodged a bullet. Their little guys weren't just little--they were off too.
 

lovegtm

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Size helped us a lot. Both Romeo and Aaron size up well against that team.

Still we dodged a bullet. Their little guys weren't just little--they were off too.
The thing is, Beal and Westbrook are guys Tatum and Smart have the size to guard well, and they're not quick/shifty the way Ish is.

Ish was killing us, and Romeo changed that. He's the best defender of quick guards the Celtics have--his foot agility and length gives them lots of problems.

Seeing him do that and also be able to give Randle trouble...man, people who aren't high on Romeo's defensive upside are crazy imo.
 

Cellar-Door

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The thing is, Beal and Westbrook are guys Tatum and Smart have the size to guard well, and they're not quick/shifty the way Ish is.

Ish was killing us, and Romeo changed that. He's the best defender of quick guards the Celtics have--his foot agility and length gives them lots of problems.

Seeing him do that and also be able to give Randle trouble...man, people who aren't high on Romeo's defensive upside are crazy imo.
Nobody we have can guard Beal when he's healthy, he averaged 41 in 3 matchups and torched everyone on the roster.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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And while I am thinking about it, if RL pops, that would be Tatum and Romeo for Fultz. Not quite like McHale - Parish but maybe the best we get in the current age of the NBA.
 

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The thing is, Beal and Westbrook are guys Tatum and Smart have the size to guard well, and they're not quick/shifty the way Ish is.

Ish was killing us, and Romeo changed that. He's the best defender of quick guards the Celtics have--his foot agility and length gives them lots of problems.

Seeing him do that and also be able to give Randle trouble...man, people who aren't high on Romeo's defensive upside are crazy imo.
Oh I agree completely. I'm 100% on board with Romeo as secondary ballhandler and its benefits on defense.

Just calling out that both he and Aaron fit in well with Jayson and TL at giving fits to a short team all night. We can look forward to rolling out lineups that are both fast enough and long/strong enough defensively and can score. The last couple of weeks have been the most encouraging part of the season for me, despite most of the team seemingly running out of gas.
 

TripleOT

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I’ve never questioned Romeo’s defensive potential. He has to figure out a way to contribute offensively. One would think he could be an effective driver when chased off the three point line, but he has to actually make threes before that happens.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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I’ve never questioned Romeo’s defensive potential. He has to figure out a way to contribute offensively. One would think he could be an effective driver when chased off the three point line, but he has to actually make threes before that happens.
I noticed that when getting the ball on the wing or at the elbows he would stay planted and look to swing the ball immediately. I'd be curious to know if this is by design via coaching, or if he doesn't trust his handle enough to put the ball down and dribble into space. If he was able to use his driving ability to draw a help defender and then make the pass he would at least contribute as a pseudo-facilitator and increase his offensive value somewhat. He was elite at finishing in HS and college so I have to assume the talent is there, but maybe he's lost confidence in it while the game could be still moving a bit too fast. If it's that simple, I think he's a pretty good candidate to break out next year provided he can stay healthy and put in the work this offseason.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Payton Pritchard got destroyed by Ish Smith early in the game. Going to the bigger, longer Langford on Ish was key to winning the game.
As Lovegtm says, Romeo isn't just bigger and longer than PP. He's quicker, has longer arms, anticipates better, and I think he's probably stronger. As Brad said (according to Kevin Smith): "Brad Stevens on Romeo Langford making an impact: "He's big, he's long, he's strong. He can impact players." "
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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How do people feel Romeo fits against the Nets?
Size helped us a lot. Both Romeo and Aaron size up well against that team.

Still we dodged a bullet. Their little guys weren't just little--they were off too.
I think BOS will need RL's defense. I have been surprised that Brad hasn't played him more when the Cs have been playing defense like a sieve.

SSS and everything but Brad played two lineups that I really liked:

TT, NG, MS, JT, and RL: in 5 minutes, 150 ORtg v 75 DRtg for NRtg of 75 and
TT, MS, JT, RL, and AN: this lineup only had one minute together but I think this lineup is really good defensively and has enough firepower to be competitive offensively (this lineup was +50 NRtg in that one minute if anyone is interested).

Hope we see these lineups vs BRK.
 

BaseballJones

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Romeo may need to play some important minutes this series, probably guarding (if one even does that) Harden. Theoretically, the Celtics match up okay with Brooklyn, if anyone can truly do that:

Smart on Kyrie
Langford on Harden
Tatum on Durant

I mean, nobody actually matches up with the Nets' superstars. But Smart, Langford, and Tatum are all plus defenders, and the matchups size-wise are pretty good for Boston. So I don't actually expect this series to go well at all, but I'd love to see them play good defense on these guys (as good as possible anyway).

You never know...maybe the Celtics come with real defensive intensity and actually cause the Nets some problems.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Romeo may need to play some important minutes this series, probably guarding (if one even does that) Harden. Theoretically, the Celtics match up okay with Brooklyn, if anyone can truly do that:

Smart on Kyrie
Langford on Harden
Tatum on Durant

I mean, nobody actually matches up with the Nets' superstars. But Smart, Langford, and Tatum are all plus defenders, and the matchups size-wise are pretty good for Boston. So I don't actually expect this series to go well at all, but I'd love to see them play good defense on these guys (as good as possible anyway).

You never know...maybe the Celtics come with real defensive intensity and actually cause the Nets some problems.
The problem is that the Nets can easily scheme to take advantage of all the mismatch advantages by forcing switches so those won’t be the actual matchups on the shot creation. While all this action is occuring then they have Joe Harris identifying open areas behind the arc where he is lethal.
 

BaseballJones

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The problem is that the Nets can easily scheme to take advantage of all the mismatch advantages by forcing switches so those won’t be the actual matchups on the shot creation. While all this action is occuring then they have Joe Harris identifying open areas behind the arc where he is lethal.
Agreed, but those three (Tatum, Langford, and Smart) can probably just switch. The issue will be if TT plays and they abuse him in the P&R, and who on earth does Kemba guard? Position-wise, he'd guard Kyrie, but he'll get absolutely smoked by Irving. Ugh.

I mean...there are many reasons why this is going to be an immensely difficult matchup for Boston. I really wish TL was fully healthy and that Brown was playing.
 

chilidawg

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[QUOTE="BaseballJones, post: 4425475, member: 72777

I mean...there are many reasons why this is going to be an immensely difficult matchup for Boston. I really wish TL was fully healthy and that Brown was playing.
[/QUOTE]

At full strength it's an interesting series but we're still significant underdogs. Short handed ....
 

bakahump

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Am I crazy to see a longer Maybe slightly less offensive minded Avery Bradley?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Am I crazy to see a longer Maybe slightly less offensive minded Avery Bradley?
Avery was all about effort and consistent constant pressure. Romeo is known to get lost for periods of time without as much as a moments notice.
 

radsoxfan

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RadSox may beg to differ, but I thought Romeo was really solid at both ends last nite.

No matter how the first-round series plays out, and I suspect the Nets will sweep, it should be a valuable experience for Romeo and Nesmith.
I thought his D was good, and to be clear I have never been down on his defense. His offense was pretty nonexistent but not as bad as some games.

As I have said before, there are degrees of badness and those degrees matter. On offense, Romeo's has been excruciatingly bad not just kinda bad or pretty bad. To the point I'm not sure he will be playable, even with good defense. But time will tell.

The injuries, COVID, age, weird season, etc are reasons to maintain some hope. Next year will be big for him to start to look semi-competent on O.
 

Koufax

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I think his O looked better in 2020 than in 2021. What changed I can't say.
 

Jimbodandy

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Guy goes months without playing any games and then we judge him numerically on classic SSS. Guy has 653 regular season minutes over 2 years. Probably best to focus on what the scouting guys see here than advanced metrics.
 

radsoxfan

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Guy goes months without playing any games and then we judge him numerically on classic SSS. Guy has 653 regular season minutes over 2 years. Probably best to focus on what the scouting guys see here than advanced metrics.
The point is that it all matters. We should keep small sample size in mind as a reason the error bars still include usefulness, but it's not an irrelevant 653 minutes either. If he was really good over that 653 minutes I think we could fairly look at that as a positive indicator. Being terrible is unfortunately a negative one.

It's like the guy has 100 at bats and 5 hits so far. Small sample size yes, but it's an excruciatingly bad sample (on O). You have to ding him on that at least a bit.

For what it's worth, it seems like most "scouting guys" around the league are concerned as well.
 
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Eddie Jurak

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It's like the guy has 100 at bats and 5 hits so far. Small sample size yes, but it's an excruciatingly bad sample (on O). You have to ding him on that at least a bit.
How about a guy with a line of .184/.273/.272 over his first ~160 plate appearances? You buying or selling?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It's like the guy has 100 at bats and 5 hits so far. Small sample size yes, but it's an excruciatingly bad sample (on O). You have to ding him on that at least a bit.
RL took 59 shots this year. JT would get there in what 3 games.

It's more like he has 1 hit in 15 ABs.

Romeo has been non-productive that's for sure. I don't know how anyone judges "good" or "bad" yet.
 

bankshot1

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RL took 59 shots this year. JT would get there in what 3 games.

It's more like he has 1 hit in 15 ABs.

Romeo has been non-productive that's for sure. I don't know how anyone judges "good" or "bad" yet.
Yup

IMO '19-20 and '20-21 have been such anomalies due to covid and its impact not only on RL, but on his team mates and opponents that its near impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions what a mostly healthy RL could deliver if he got normal rotation minutes and was allowed to grow as most talented rookies (IMO he's still on rookie time) do. Hopefully he's healthy next year and gets his minutes in a normal continuous 82 game + post-season year.

So not only do we have a small sample size, but the sample is tainted.


Langford needs to stay on the court. IMO its near impossible to judge what he can be given his time healing and not playing.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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"Drawing definitive conclusions from tiny sample sizes" is our unofficial motto. Based on your post, you clearly haven't familiarized yourself with the customs and ways of SoSH.
And maybe this ends up as a rhetorical question that no one answers, but when people watch Romeo plays, doesn't he pop off the screen? I mean sure he's not the top of the top like he was in college and sure he's not Zach LaVine or other people who are going to take off from the foul line and dunk, but when I watch him in the games, he's so athletically gifted, he pops to me. We've talked about his defense, but on offense, he's finishing like he's a lot bigger than he is; it's like no one is stopping him one-on-one; and he pretty much gets where he wants on the court.

If he were on, just for example, DET or SAC, I think he'd be putting up numbers.

If I'm the only one, fine but my eyes tell me that if he stays healthy, he's going to be in the NBA for a long time. Of course, health is a big question. Just like TL.
 

radsoxfan

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How about a guy with a line of .184/.273/.272 over his first ~160 plate appearances? You buying or selling?
It's not a binary situation. It's a bad start, it matters. It's not the only thing that matters and it's not impossible to come back from. But it's not good.

For every guy with a line that bad over 160 PA (is that Pedroia?) that succeeds, more end up failing. Retrospectively picking out the person you know succeeded with that start just means it is possible, not that it is likely.

It's an iterative process and the initial direction isn't looking good. Honestly I'm surprised this is controversial. Romeo has been beyond abysmal on offense , there is no other way to look at it. If he had been awesome, we would be thrilled. The fact that he has been the exact opposite of awesome sucks, even if we can rationally hold out hope he will develop.


Edit: didn't see the Pedroia confirmation until after I posted but I was right!
 

radsoxfan

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"Drawing definitive conclusions from tiny sample sizes" is our unofficial motto. Based on your post, you clearly haven't familiarized yourself with the customs and ways of SoSH.
Who is drawing definitive conclusions?

When someone sucks really badly, it isn't particularly good news.

It makes it more likely they will suck in the future compared to an alternative universe in which they don''t really suck now.
 

radsoxfan

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And maybe this ends up as a rhetorical question that no one answers, but when people watch Romeo plays, doesn't he pop off the screen? I mean sure he's not the top of the top like he was in college and sure he's not Zach LaVine or other people who are going to take off from the foul line and dunk, but when I watch him in the games, he's so athletically gifted, he pops to me. We've talked about his defense, but on offense, he's finishing like he's a lot bigger than he is; it's like no one is stopping him one-on-one; and he pretty much gets where he wants on the court.

If he were on, just for example, DET or SAC, I think he'd be putting up numbers.

If I'm the only one, fine but my eyes tell me that if he stays healthy, he's going to be in the NBA for a long time. Of course, health is a big question. Just like TL.
I think we are watching a different guy on offense. Finishing like he is bigger than he is? No one is stopping him on one one? gets wherever he wants on the court?

I won't throw all the advanced stats out there but he is just so bad on offense right now, I don't see any of that stuff at all.

I see a deer in the headlights that tries to stand in the corner not messing up, and the few times he touches the ball it's a train wreck.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think we are watching a different guy on offense. Finishing like he is bigger than he is? No one is stopping him on one one? gets wherever he wants on the court?

I won't throw all the advanced stats out there but he is just so bad on offense right now, I don't see any of that stuff at all.

I see a deer in the headlights that tries to stand in the corner not messing up, and the few times he touches the ball it's a train wreck.
I guess you missed the NYK game?

He's a 19 year old playing on what was supposed to be a title contender with at least 3 All-Star caliber or better players. I'm sure he sees his job just to keep the ball moving. I mean does anyone want Romeo to take 10 shots away from JT, JB, KW, and NG?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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You know I am
Who is drawing definitive conclusions?

When someone sucks really badly, it isn't particularly good news.

It makes it more likely they will suck in the future compared to an alternative universe in which they don''t really suck now.
It was not aimed at you or anyone else in particular - its at the royal "us".

I have no position in the great Romeo debate. He is both pretty terrible as you note but still has time to salvage things as others have pointed out.

I just took the low hanging fruit of pointing out that a lurker like wbcd has a lot to learn about how this board operates. Apparently I do too because my terrible jokes don't even land close.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I did!

I wish I saw the Great Romeo in action :)
All of his shots are on NBA.com and this should be the link: https://www.nba.com/stats/events/?ContextMeasure=FGA&GameID=0022001073&PlayerID=1629641&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&TeamID=&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game.

There are a couple of shots he missed that he's going to make. The last two where he misses in close and then finishes on the other side of the rim was impressive to me.

If you go back to the MIN game the night before, look at his second basket. The most impressive thing to me is that after he stole the ball, MIN's guards couldn't get in front of him even though he was dribbling and the defenders were running. Also, he slowed down just a little, let the guards go by him, and then effortlessly slammed the ball down. Being that fast without needing to hit "top gear" is really helpful on the court.
 

Eddie Jurak

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It's an iterative process and the initial direction isn't looking good. Honestly I'm surprised this is controversial. Romeo has been beyond abysmal on offense , there is no other way to look at it. If he had been awesome, we would be thrilled. The fact that he has been the exact opposite of awesome sucks, even if we can rationally hold out hope he will develop.
I just think that the weight that should be put on his 650 minutes or whatever in terms of overall career expectations should be very low, given all of the extenuating factors.

He's a guy who, at this point in his career, is best with the ball in his hands, which he rarely gets to do. Because he's on a winning team loaded with ball domiant scorers. His arguably best 2 games of the season were the last 2 when the Celtics were sitting everyone out.

I'd be a lot more worried about him - based on the same amount of minutes and game play - if the Celtics had drafted him based on his ability to be a spot up shooter.
 

RetractableRoof

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...

I just took the low hanging fruit of pointing out that a lurker like wbcd has a lot to learn about how this board operates. Apparently I do too because my terrible jokes don't even land close.
Somewhere along the way I was told the old thought "If you have to explain the joke, it wasn't funny". But, what if the person hearing the joke isn't funny? It was amusing, I appreciate the humor...
 

BaseballJones

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I guess you missed the NYK game?

He's a 19 year old playing on what was supposed to be a title contender with at least 3 All-Star caliber or better players. I'm sure he sees his job just to keep the ball moving. I mean does anyone want Romeo to take 10 shots away from JT, JB, KW, and NG?
Who is NG??
 

lovegtm

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I'm going to go out on a limb for Romeo offensively, in a way that I wouldn't with a Grant/Semi type, even at the risk of becoming the resident Romeo Truther.

I was willing to go out on a similar limb for him defensively after just a few appearances his rookie year, when it was not at all common wisdom that he'd be a good defender. He just did too many things well on-ball, and was aware on-ball in a way that was really surprising for a rookie without many games played (allowing for occasional young guy lapses).

Now we're at a point where his defense is taken for granted, and the question is whether he can be a decent offensive player.

I actually agree that he's been really bad in the Brad Stevens Memorial Young Wing Potted Plant role. He's not a good shooter, and he often gets lost in no man's land when he drives closeouts.

But on the few occasions when he's been given the ball to create (against the Bulls and Knicks), he looks surprisingly competent/comfortable for a young wing, especially in PnR. If he can somehow get un-snakebitten and get a real summer in, I think there's something there.

The bigger question with Romeo imo is not "will he become a decent offensive player?", but rather "will he do it on this contract for the Celtics?"
 

tbrown_01923

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I think if he gets playing time - it would be easy to see him averaging 3 points on fast breaks alone. He is a crafty finisher.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The bigger question with Romeo imo is not "will he become a decent offensive player?", but rather "will he do it on this contract for the Celtics?"
The corollary to your question is whether RL will stay healthy enough to realize his potential.

I mean RL is already:
  • the best on-ball defender the Cs have;
  • the best athlete on the Cs without a J starting his first name;
  • Other than Kemba and the Js, the best finisher on the Cs (yes, I think he's a better finisher than MS and NG); and
  • Other than maybe Tremont, who may not be on the Cs next year, the only non-starter on the Cs that can really run a PnR.
And as noted earlier in this thread, one of the Cs coaches thinks he's already a way better shooter than people think.

A fully developed and healthy Romeo is kind of exactly what the Cs need off the bench. Let's hope he gets there.