Romeo Langford - Pick #14

tbb345

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One thing about Rozier is he always had the physical tools. Quick first step, athleticism and a high motor aside from the Kyrie year which was a cluster for everyone. You can’t teach those.
How is this any different than Romeo or Nesmith? They’re both hustling every night and seem to have the necessary physical tools (I think Terry was a better athlete but neither of them are slouches)
 

Cesar Crespo

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How is this any different than Romeo or Nesmith? They’re both hustling every night and seem to have the necessary physical tools (I think Terry was a better athlete but neither of them are slouches)
Rozier was far more explosive.
 

HomeRunBaker

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How is this any different than Romeo or Nesmith? They’re both hustling every night and seem to have the necessary physical tools (I think Terry was a better athlete but neither of them are slouches)
I don’t think they are comparable at all athletically. Rozier is stronger and much more explosive with a better handle and attack off the dribble. A much much better shot creator even though back then you didn’t want him doing so.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I don’t think they are comparable at all athletically. Rozier is stronger and much more explosive with a better handle and attack off the dribble. A much much better shot creator even though back then you didn’t want him doing so.
He has a first step or w/e you want to call it. His handle has also always been underrated, partly because he's not much of a playmaker. Rozier has always taken care of the ball. When he was with the C's, his TO% rate was 9.2%.
Nesmith is currently at 13.5% and Langford is at 16.5%. League average is 12.5% from what I can tell.

The C's are currently at 12.8% which is 20th in the NBA.

Still, Rozier was terrible his first 2 years but we all envisioned/hoped he would develop into a Jamal Crawford type. Too bad his breakout campaign didn't happen a year earlier. Ainge definitely would have re-signed him.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I don’t think they are comparable at all athletically. Rozier is stronger and much more explosive with a better handle and attack off the dribble. A much much better shot creator even though back then you didn’t want him doing so.
If you are talking about leaping ability, then maybe they are not comparable but let's not forget: TRoz was a 3-star recruit who averaged 7 ppg as a freshman and then had a great sophomore year before declaring for the draft. He also had a terrible rookie year and a not great second year (as discussed above) though showing flashes. He was also healthy the entire time.

Romeo was a five-star recruit, the #1 rated guard by ESPN in his class, and averaged 16.5 ppg in his freshman year with a torn ligament in his wrist. He was also, IIRC, in the 90th percentile in Pick n' Roll plays on a IND team that wasn't all that good. His first NBA year, he had to recover from wrist surgery and other injuries plus had to deal with the stoppage of the league.

If we could get DA and CBS under truth serum, my guess is that they have no doubt that as long as he stays healthy, Romeo will be able to score in the NBA. I mean if Romeo was on OKC, he'd probably be scoring in double digits a game. He just hasn't had the opportunities.

And before anyone brings up work ethic, from the little we've heard, Romeo works as hard as anyone.
 

HomeRunBaker

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If you are talking about leaping ability, then maybe they are not comparable but let's not forget: TRoz was a 3-star recruit who averaged 7 ppg as a freshman and then had a great sophomore year before declaring for the draft. He also had a terrible rookie year and a not great second year (as discussed above) though showing flashes. He was also healthy the entire time.

Romeo was a five-star recruit, the #1 rated guard by ESPN in his class, and averaged 16.5 ppg in his freshman year with a torn ligament in his wrist. He was also, IIRC, in the 90th percentile in Pick n' Roll plays on a IND team that wasn't all that good. His first NBA year, he had to recover from wrist surgery and other injuries plus had to deal with the stoppage of the league.

If we could get DA and CBS under truth serum, my guess is that they have no doubt that as long as he stays healthy, Romeo will be able to score in the NBA. I mean if Romeo was on OKC, he'd probably be scoring in double digits a game. He just hasn't had the opportunities.

And before anyone brings up work ethic, from the little we've heard, Romeo works as hard as anyone.
I should have been clear....I was referring to Nesmith. I am pro-Romeo on his upside based on his physicals.
 

Cesar Crespo

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If you are talking about leaping ability, then maybe they are not comparable but let's not forget: TRoz was a 3-star recruit who averaged 7 ppg as a freshman and then had a great sophomore year before declaring for the draft. He also had a terrible rookie year and a not great second year (as discussed above) though showing flashes. He was also healthy the entire time.

Romeo was a five-star recruit, the #1 rated guard by ESPN in his class, and averaged 16.5 ppg in his freshman year with a torn ligament in his wrist. He was also, IIRC, in the 90th percentile in Pick n' Roll plays on a IND team that wasn't all that good. His first NBA year, he had to recover from wrist surgery and other injuries plus had to deal with the stoppage of the league.

If we could get DA and CBS under truth serum, my guess is that they have no doubt that as long as he stays healthy, Romeo will be able to score in the NBA. I mean if Romeo was on OKC, he'd probably be scoring in double digits a game. He just hasn't had the opportunities.

And before anyone brings up work ethic, from the little we've heard, Romeo works as hard as anyone.
I like both Langford and Nesmith but does where they were recruited even matter anymore? Romeo was 5th, that's cool. Bol Bol was 6th. Nassir Little was 3rd.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_2018.html

I've looked at a few of the list and the list are full of great players but there are also a lot of busts. Bol Bol and Nassir Little still may end up being ok too. Not really the point though.

2 years into his NBA career, where Langford was recruited in HS shouldn't mean a lick.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I like both Langford and Nesmith but does where they were recruited even matter anymore? Romeo was 5th, that's cool. Bol Bol was 6th. Nassir Little was 3rd.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/recruit_rankings_2018.html

I've looked at a few of the list and the list are full of great players but there are also a lot of busts. Bol Bol and Nassir Little still may end up being ok too. Not really the point though.

2 years into his NBA career, where Langford was recruited in HS shouldn't mean a lick.
Ah good ole Bol Bol. If people think I’m down on Nesmith I’m not sure there is a player I’ve been more down on entering the league then Bol. Maybe Dragan Bender.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I have a feeling Bender will be back in a couple years. Though he's not really lighting up the EuroLeague atm.
 

reggiecleveland

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Rozier was far more explosive.
Maybe Dragan Bender.
[/QUOTE]
LOL
I sort of know Jay Triano (he lit me up once) and his job for one year or more was to be Bender's personal coach. I watched him work for an hour with Bender before a game in Phoenix. Kind of No Babies Allowed moment to watch a 7'1 kid drill dozens of threes in a row then when he subs in just get abused. He couldn't hang athletically on D or the boards.
 

shoelace

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It's always funny when some guys get good and then they move on to dunking on the next young guy.
I mean, we had folks on here saying the Jaylen Brown extension was an overpay even after he had already shown quite a bit and it wasn't really that big of a jump to project him to make a leap to the fringe All Star status he has now.

It's like some posters standards are that a guy pretty much has to be an established starter who plays well on a nightly basis before anyone can say they are good or could be very good. On the flipside, anyone who does not meet that standard actually sucks and is a bum and anyone who likes that player is a Green Teamer with binkie. Feels like we have folks who would have traded Joel Embiid for a protected 2nd round pick for having the gall, the fucking audacity to be hurt for his first few seasons.
 

Bleedred

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It's like some posters standards are that a guy pretty much has to be an established starter who plays well on a nightly basis before anyone can say they are good or could be very good. On the flipside, anyone who does not meet that standard actually sucks and is a bum and anyone who likes that player is a Green Teamer with binkie. Feels like we have folks who would have traded Joel Embiid for a protected 2nd round pick for having the gall, the fucking audacity to be hurt for his first few seasons.
This would be an interesting take if anyone in this thread was advocating what you suggest, but since no one has, it's rather lame. In case you haven't been following, the the conversation that the majority of us are having is between guys who think RL already has a plus NBA skill and projects to be a good to very good NBA player and guys who think RL has simply shown some promise on defense but is otherwise currently terrible at shooting, passing and ball-handling and thus not a very good player at the moment. Oh, and RL has had development stifling injuries for 3 consecutive years.
 

slamminsammya

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This would be an interesting take if anyone in this thread was advocating what you suggest, but since no one has, it's rather lame. In case you haven't been following, the the conversation that the majority of us are having is between guys who think RL already has a plus NBA skill and projects to be a good to very good NBA player and guys who think RL has simply shown some promise on defense but is otherwise currently terrible at shooting, passing and ball-handling and thus not a very good player at the moment. Oh, and RL has had development stifling injuries for 3 consecutive years.
Don't retcon how this conversation has gone. We have someone saying no one has ever been as bad as RL and gone on to success. The tone is almost like people are relishing every 0 point game, its like failure porn. And he's not even that bad! Round and round we go.
 

Jimbodandy

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Don't retcon how this conversation has gone. We have someone saying no one has ever been as bad as RL and gone on to success. The tone is almost like people are relishing every 0 point game, its like failure porn. And he's not even that bad! Round and round we go.
Yeah someone didn't read the whole thread. Maybe it's mostly rad, but there has been talk of Romeo as historically bad on offense and therefore likely to amount to nothing.
 

shoelace

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Don't retcon how this conversation has gone. We have someone saying no one has ever been as bad as RL and gone on to success. The tone is almost like people are relishing every 0 point game, its like failure porn. And he's not even that bad! Round and round we go.
I mean this is basically the tone I was responding to with my post.

Romeo, like most young players, has been a net negative. I'm sure the average 19, 20 and 21 year old players in the NBA are net negatives by every metric, so that isn't really a meaningful observation. I realize that some posters think that injury and a significant respiratory illness, and rust after coming back from those two things, are an "excuse" for poor performance (whether by the player or the team). But keeping that context in mind, I'm happy with what I've seen from Romeo and expect him to keep getting better. The fact that, despite those things, he has shown flashes of being a very good defender is an extremely positive sign.

We're in a weird territory when we have good talent evaluators who see combo guard potential in the player (which he does have) and other folks are calling him an awful passer and awful ball handler. I have to remind myself that we're all watching slightly different games.
 

Jimbodandy

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I mean this is basically the tone I was responding to with my post.

Romeo, like most young players, has been a net negative. I'm sure the average 19, 20 and 21 year old players in the NBA are net negatives by every metric, so that isn't really a meaningful observation. I realize that some posters think that injury and a significant respiratory illness, and rust after coming back from those two things, are an "excuse" for poor performance (whether by the player or the team). But keeping that context in mind, I'm happy with what I've seen from Romeo and expect him to keep getting better. The fact that, despite those things, he has shown flashes of being a very good defender is an extremely positive sign.

We're in a weird territory when we have good talent evaluators who see combo guard potential in the player (which he does have) and other folks are calling him an awful passer and awful ball handler. I have to remind myself that we're all watching slightly different games.
To be fair, at least some of those bearish on Romeo (and Grant for that matter) are basing their statements on the offensive metrics. I think that the offensive metrics are meaningless in their current sample sizes on Romeo and Nesmith for sure, and perhaps Grant. Ymmv.
 

shoelace

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To be fair, at least some of those bearish on Romeo (and Grant for that matter) are basing their statements on the offensive metrics. I think that the offensive metrics are meaningless in their current sample sizes on Romeo and Nesmith for sure, and perhaps Grant. Ymmv.
I mean, Romeo is not a good shooter at this point, if he's only getting a handful of shots in a game and most of those are coming as a result of a play breaking down or something, his numbers aren't going to look good and his issues will look more pronounced due to the small sample size. I mean, Terry Rozier was a more naturally talented shooter, but the same thing was true of early career Terry. We had a lot of people saying he sucked and couldn't shoot, even though he could. Lots of young dudes struggle coming from being in college where they are the man to coming off the bench and having far more limited opportunities. As they grow as all around players and get more minutes, they get more opportunities to get their types of shots, and they suddenly look better. Some of it is mechanical improvements and practice, but a lot of it is just a function of role. It's not going to be surprising when this happens with Romeo as well.
 

slamminsammya

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I mean, Romeo is not a good shooter at this point, if he's only getting a handful of shots in a game and most of those are coming as a result of a play breaking down or something, his numbers aren't going to look good and his issues will look more pronounced due to the small sample size. I mean, Terry Rozier was a more naturally talented shooter, but the same thing was true of early career Terry. We had a lot of people saying he sucked and couldn't shoot, even though he could. Lots of young dudes struggle coming from being in college where they are the man to coming off the bench and having far more limited opportunities. As they grow as all around players and get more minutes, they get more opportunities to get their types of shots, and they suddenly look better. Some of it is mechanical improvements and practice, but a lot of it is just a function of role. It's not going to be surprising when this happens with Romeo as well.
One difference with Rozier is his stroke always looked good and natural. The same cannot be said for Romeo.
 

Eddie Jurak

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To be fair, at least some of those bearish on Romeo (and Grant for that matter) are basing their statements on the offensive metrics. I think that the offensive metrics are meaningless in their current sample sizes on Romeo and Nesmith for sure, and perhaps Grant. Ymmv.
Well, they are meaningful in the sense that they are an accurate representation of how he has played offensively. But I agree that they are likely not a reflection of his potential.
 

the moops

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I mean, Romeo is not a good shooter at this point, if he's only getting a handful of shots in a game and most of those are coming as a result of a play breaking down or something
I would say half his shots are of this variety. The other half are wide open looks. He looks equally bad shooting either type
 

NomarsFool

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He's had some drives to the basket. This season, they have been pretty poor. I thought he looked better last year.
 

CSteinhardt

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It's like some posters standards are that a guy pretty much has to be an established starter who plays well on a nightly basis before anyone can say they are good or could be very good. On the flipside, anyone who does not meet that standard actually sucks and is a bum and anyone who likes that player is a Green Teamer with binkie. Feels like we have folks who would have traded Joel Embiid for a protected 2nd round pick for having the gall, the fucking audacity to be hurt for his first few seasons.
The Chauncey Billups plan.

There are clearly tools here that give him enough potential to be a really useful NBA player. Let's see what happens with a full, healthy offseason before worrying too much about his ceiling or how he might fit.
 

Imbricus

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You can't make this shit up. He's never going to stay on the court.
This is why I gave the pick a low grade recently. The guy has definitely shown intriguing flashes of talent, but he's made of fine-spun glass. Look at his injuries: head, wrist, thumb, knee, ankle, groin, hip. It's not that he's got a bum knee. It's like he's got a bum everything.
 

Sam Ray Not

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This is why I gave the pick a low grade recently. The guy has definitely shown intriguing flashes of talent, but he's made of fine-spun glass. Look at his injuries: head, wrist, thumb, knee, ankle, groin, hip. It's not that he's got a bum knee. It's like he's got a bum everything.
Toe, knee, arm, ass....
 

HowBoutDemSox

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I remember being similarly frustrated by Timelord's inability to stay on the floor his first two years as well, especially for someone who was raw and needed the reps. Things seemed to have turned out pretty well on that front, though he continues to miss time this year with injury.

That's not to say that Romeo's arc will turn out as well as Timelord's, but I'm not giving up on a young player with a lot of potential upside just because of bad injury luck in the first couple seasons. I hope he has a healthy offseason and summer league to work on his shot and offensive game in general.
 

Euclis20

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I remember being similarly frustrated by Timelord's inability to stay on the floor his first two years as well, especially for someone who was raw and needed the reps. Things seemed to have turned out pretty well on that front, though he continues to miss time this year with injury.

That's not to say that Romeo's arc will turn out as well as Timelord's, but I'm not giving up on a young player with a lot of potential upside just because of bad injury luck in the first couple seasons. I hope he has a healthy offseason and summer league to work on his shot and offensive game in general.
The only thing Timelord and Romeo have in common is that they both missed a ton of time in their first two seasons. Williams' rate stats were fantastic his first two years: Per 36 minutes he averaged 12.4 points, 11.2 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 4.0 blocks and 1.7 steals while shooting .719 from the field. Romeo's rate stats are...worse: 6.9 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.3 assists, .7 blocks, .7 steals, .339 from the field. I know you qualified it, but there isn't any reason to include the two in any meaningful sort of comparison.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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The only thing Timelord and Romeo have in common is that they both missed a ton of time in their first two seasons. Williams' rate stats were fantastic his first two years: Per 36 minutes he averaged 12.4 points, 11.2 rebounds, 1.8 assists, 4.0 blocks and 1.7 steals while shooting .719 from the field. Romeo's rate stats are...worse: 6.9 points, 4.3 rebounds, 1.3 assists, .7 blocks, .7 steals, .339 from the field. I know you qualified it, but there isn't any reason to include the two in any meaningful sort of comparison.
comparing rate stats misunderstands where RL came from. TL's job on offense is pretty simple. Same with Nesmith, whose job is to hit open shots and hit the boards.

Rl averaged 16.5 or so points in the Big 10 as a freshman with an injured wrist. He's had the ball in his hands his whole life. Now he stands in the corner.
There's no guarantees that RL is going to make it with the NBa - especially health-wise but he's basically at the same stage of development as JB 1/2way through his first season. RL needs to figure out on offense what he can get away with and what he can't and that's only going to take reps.
 

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I still think he has the highest ceiling of our young bench mob.
He's going to have to develop some kind of jump shot, but he's long and athletic and potentially a lockdown defender.
 
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HomeRunBaker

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He's going to have to develop some kind of jump, but he's long and athletic and potentially a lockdown defender.
It’s the most learnable skill which is why I’m far from giving up on this player.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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He's going to have to develop some kind of jump shot, but he's long and athletic and potentially a lockdown defender.
He's also faster than he looks. There was one play - can't remember if it was vs NYK or the game before - where he picked off a pass on the wing and beat the other team's guards down the court even though he was dribbling. He's really athletic.