Rolling the dice - Patriots OTL staffing plan

[slamminsammya]

I have no idea how to evaluate coordinators who aren't on the team I watch every week. I am barely able to form an opinion on the coordinators of the team I watch every week. It seems to me like most fans and even the journalists just look at the team's rankings in defense/offense each year, eyball some kind of made on the fly adjustment for how good they personally thought the talent was, and presto come up with who the good coordinators are.

My intuition is there must be a massive market inefficiency for the good coordinators on teams with shit talent.

 

[E5 Yaz]

Reiss discusses the OC in his Sunday notes column. As usual, it's a clear-headed take, with reasoning to support his conclusions

https://www.espn.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4824805/hiring-patriots-offensive-coordinator-looms-as-big-decision-for-bill-belichick

 

[BaseballJones]

So combining this thread with the Flores thread.... Who would be the best candidates for Belichick to hire? How many of them are minorities?

Let me edit this. It’s been rumored that the top candidates are BOB and Gase, for a bunch of reasons. Many here think BOB makes a ton of sense. He’s got loads of experience, has been here before, BB knows and trusts him, etc.

So to what degree should BB reach out to minority candidates if he simply wants BOB for the job? (And again, many/most agree that BOB would be ideal.)

 

[mcpickl]

So combining this thread with the Flores thread.... Who would be the best candidates for Belichick to hire? How many of them are minorities?

Let me edit this. It’s been rumored that the top candidates are BOB and Gase, for a bunch of reasons. Many here think BOB makes a ton of sense. He’s got loads of experience, has been here before, BB knows and trusts him, etc.

So to what degree should BB reach out to minority candidates if he simply wants BOB for the job? (And again, many/most agree that BOB would be ideal.)

He's going to have to reach out to minority candidates.

Rooney rule now applies to coordinator positions.

 

[BaseballJones]

He's going to have to reach out to minority candidates.

Rooney rule now applies to coordinator positions.

But if he really wants BOB, then those interviews will just be a “sham”, right?

 

[mcpickl]

But if he really wants BOB, then those interviews will just be a “sham”, right?

Yes

Most Rooney rule interviews are "shams"

 

[snowmanny]

But if he really wants BOB, then those interviews will just be a “sham”, right?

I would hope and expect that Coach Belichick would do an honest assessment of anyone who comes before him auditioning for a job - whether it is a rookie quarterback, an undrafted free agent, or a qualified candidate for a coordinator position - in an effort to do what is best for the team. Not sure why we would presume anything else.

If he has internal biases that he cannot see, well, that would not be helpful and the same would be true for all of us.

Edit - as for BOB I have zero clue what BB thinks of him. I thought it was weird when he brought in McDaniels to be a consultant in the playoffs. I know OBrien was leaving but I don’t see that as the biggest vote of confidence

 

[Eddie Jurak]

Edit - as for BOB I have zero clue what BB thinks of him. I thought it was weird when he brought in McDaniels to be a consultant in the playoffs. I know OBrien was leaving but I don’t see that as the biggest vote of confidence

Bringing in McD wasn't aout seconded-guessing O'Brien, it was about locking up his OC.

 

[RedOctober3829]

Yikes
View: https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1491068553109585922

 

[tims4wins]

Yikes
View: https://twitter.com/AlbertBreer/status/1491068553109585922

Makes sense to me, as he's not a flight risk for at least a few years. Needs a major image re-build

 

[jsinger121]

He’s working for free so that’s why he’s back

 

[MillarTime]

He’s working for free so that’s why he’s back

Bingo

 

[Gash Prex]

Why is Joe Judge a yikes? We aren't hiring him as a head coach. He was a very good coach for the Pats for a number of years - just like McDaniels was before he bombed in Denver.

 

[Saints Rest]

Interesting that the Pats will have two former head coaches, each of whom is an ex-Pat coordinator, working for the team with vague responsibilities.

Or do people think that "Offensive Assistant" means that Judge will be de facto OC without the title?

 

[cornwalls@6]

Why is Joe Judge a yikes? We aren't hiring him as a head coach. He was a very good coach for the Pats for a number of years - just like McDaniels was before he bombed in Denver.

Exactly. He didn’t have a good tenure with the Giants, but that’s been a dysfunctional organization for a long time. He was a well regarded coach here, has a lot of institutional knowledge, and should be a good addition to the staff. Bonus points for being able to jump in and help out with the terrible special teams play if needed. A bad press conference in NY is no reason to not want him back.

 

[JohnnyTheBone]

A bad press conference in NY is no reason to not want him back.

 

[cshea]

Interesting that the Pats will have two former head coaches, each of whom is an ex-Pat coordinator, working for the team with vague responsibilities.

Or do people think that "Offensive Assistant" means that Judge will be de facto OC without the title?

Not sure exactly how it works, but I think the vague titles are so the coaches can collect the money owed from their previous employer.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

I imagine it will be the equivalent of the roving minor league pitching coach. Work with WRs when TB80 is working with returners, work with the kicking game (that is part of the offense, right?). Help with QB coaching.

edit- @cshea probably has BINGO, now that I think about it. Wasn't that how they were able to get McD back for the post season? Offensive assistant?

 

[BaseballJones]

Exactly. He didn’t have a good tenure with the Giants, but that’s been a dysfunctional organization for a long time. He was a well regarded coach here, has a lot of institutional knowledge, and should be a good addition to the staff. Bonus points for being able to jump in and help out with the terrible special teams play if needed. A bad press conference in NY is no reason to not want him back.

Agreed. He was a really good assistant. He will be back as an assistant, which should be right in his wheelhouse.

I don’t dislike this at all.

 

[Cellar-Door]

My initial reaction to Judge is that it's weird to make a guy who just was the coach of a team that had the worst designed, play called, and generally managed offense in the league by a wide margin as an offensive coach is weird. What skillset has Judge shown that makes him a good offensive assistant?

Judge's Giants were so badly mismanaged on offense that they fired a terrible O-coordinator and got significantly worse. This team was running give up plays in the 2nd quarter of games.

Joe Judge may have been a good ST Coordinator, but he was a horrific head coach, legit the worst in the league, and he showed zero skillset on offense.

Whatever, it's Bill doing a guy a solid hopefully and there isn't a limit on assistant coaches so we can hopefully hire someone competent from outside the organization, but if he's actually here to do anything it's a mistake.

 

[tims4wins]

My initial reaction to Judge is that it's weird to make a guy who just was the coach of a team that had the worst designed, play called, and generally managed offense in the league by a wide margin as an offensive coach is weird. What skillset has Judge shown that makes him a good offensive assistant?

Judge's Giants were so badly mismanaged on offense that they fired a terrible O-coordinator and got significantly worse. This team was running give up plays in the 2nd quarter of games.

Joe Judge may have been a good ST Coordinator, but he was a horrific head coach, legit the worst in the league, and he showed zero skillset on offense.

Whatever, it's Bill doing a guy a solid hopefully and there isn't a limit on assistant coaches so we can hopefully hire someone competent from outside the organization, but if he's actually here to do anything it's a mistake.

We can't simultaneously cry brain drain while also saying bringing these guys back can't help.

Joe Judge was over his head as a head coach. This isn't remotely a surprise. I don't think he was ready to be a HC. But he was also a good, maybe excellent ST coordinator who had started to expand his offensive duties prior to leaving. He was a QB in college. It's not like he doesn't know offense.

 

[Cellar-Door]

We can't simultaneously cry brain drain while also saying bringing these guys back can't help.

Joe Judge was over his head as a head coach. This isn't remotely a surprise. I don't think he was ready to be a HC. But he was also a good, maybe excellent ST coordinator who had started to expand his offensive duties prior to leaving. He was a QB in college. It's not like he doesn't know offense.

I mean, we can in the sense that bringing back guys who left into positions they don't show any real qualifications for isn't how you fix brain drain, or the other issue of quality drain and groupthink. You do that by going outside your circle of retreads for qualified coaches with fresh ideas.

Bringing back Judge to help ST would be great. Bringing him back on offense seems weird since he's given zero indications he has any grasp of it. There are hundreds of thousands of people who were QBs in college, that doesn't make good offensive coaches out of them.

 

[kenneycb]

Speaking of failed head coaches, does anyone know what Patricia does? He's obviously not the DC and is apparently helping on projects, which isn't particularly illuminating.

 

[Saints Rest]

Speaking of failed head coaches, does anyone know what Patricia does? He's obviously not the DC and is apparently helping on projects, which isn't particularly illuminating.

Pink stripes

 

[BigJimEd]

Yeah, it's hard to get excited about hiring an offensive coach who called back to back sneaks on 2nd and 3rd and long.

It may work out and Belichick has talked highly about Judge's overall football knowledge. Nonetheless, it doesn't exactly get me excited for the season. Hopefully they still hire an OC.

 

[jmanny24]

Yeah, it's hard to get excited about hiring an offensive coach who called back to back sneaks on 2nd and 3rd and long.

This. He was good with the special teams but what pedigree is out there that suggests he'd be a good offensive mind? This is another Bill's guys hire. He doesn't want fresh ideas he wants yes men that'll run things the way he wants.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Saying that he has no offensive experience is just being willfully ignorant. As well as his ST duties, he was WR coach in NE.

 

[tims4wins]

This. He was good with the special teams but what pedigree is out there that suggests he'd be a good offensive mind? This is another Bill's guys hire. He doesn't want fresh ideas he wants yes men that'll run things the way he wants.

Because this strategy has worked out so poorly in developing coaches such as McDaniels, O'Brien, Flores, Patrick Graham, etc. etc.??? The whole idea is to groom coaches so they don't have to re-teach new systems when they change coordinators.

 

[PedroKsBambino]

Speaking of failed head coaches, does anyone know what Patricia does? He's obviously not the DC and is apparently helping on projects, which isn't particularly illuminating.

My guess, and I think I've seen it reported, is that he's filling at least some of the roles Ernie Adams used to. What those are....yeah, pink stripes.

I get that Judge was an abject failure as HC. But it's a world different to be operating in a defined way with Pats, under the BB umbrella, and in an org that works and has vet leadership and a system in place already. So, I'm not inclined to worry about his Giants tenure personally.

 

[BigJimEd]

This. He was good with the special teams but what pedigree is out there that suggests he'd be a good offensive mind? This is another Bill's guys hire. He doesn't want fresh ideas he wants yes men that'll run things the way he wants.

I would not go as far as the bolded. Just because a person is familiar with Belichick and the system does not mean they are "yes man" and won't speak up. There have been reports in the past that Belichick encourages and values differing opinions. I don't think you have the type of sustained success in his position if you reject input from others.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Saying that he has no offensive experience is just being willfully ignorant. As well as his ST duties, he was WR coach in NE.

I wonder if anyone else on the staff started as a ST and WR coach?

The hand wringing here for bringing him back in a complete nondescript role is interesting. He could be doing special teams and some stuff on offense for all we know.

 

[E5 Yaz]

The hand wringing here for bringing him back in a complete nondescript role is interesting.

But not surprising

 

[slamminsammya]

I wonder if anyone else on the staff started as a ST and WR coach?

The hand wringing here for bringing him back in a complete nondescript role is interesting. He could be doing special teams and some stuff on offense for all we know.

Yeah, maybe Judge was arguing for running QB sneaks on 2nd and long for years with McDaniels and Belichick pushing back.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Yeah, maybe Judge was arguing for running QB sneaks on 2nd and long for years with McDaniels and Belichick pushing back.

Well, Brady did have amazing success converting QB sneaks, so...

 

[Cotillion]

I would not go as far as the bolded. Just because a person is familiar with Belichick and the system does not mean they are "yes man" and won't speak up. There have been reports in the past that Belichick encourages and values differing opinions. I don't think you have the type of sustained success in his position if you reject input from others.

we've seen it in the behind the scenes videos of the weekly practice stuff... he is constantly asking the other coaches "what do you think" "is this working" "what's your idea".

 

[BigJimEd]

The hand wringing here for bringing him back in a complete nondescript role is interesting. He could be doing special teams and some stuff on offense for all we know.

He could also be the de facto OC as well. It is hard for me to feel too strongly about the hire until I know his role. If the Pats hire another OC than I'd say Judge would likely be a positive addition. If Judge becomes the de facto OC than I am less sure and would look at that as a more risky hire.

 

[Harry Hooper]

Saying that he has no offensive experience is just being willfully ignorant. As well as his ST duties, he was WR coach in NE.

True, but that's not exactly an asset on his resume is it?

 

[Cellar-Door]

Judge is a whatever move, as long as they

Saying that he has no offensive experience is just being willfully ignorant. As well as his ST duties, he was WR coach in NE.

Has anyone said he has no offensive experience?
I think it's more that he hasn't shown offense to be something he's good at, but rather something that the team he was a HC of was horrifically bad at. No experience... honestly would be better than "his offense was a raging trash fire at all times"

Until we know the scope it's not some horrific move, just a weird one with the potential to be really bad if he has major responsibilities.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

True, but that's not exactly an asset on his resume is it?

True- but Rodin would have a hard time carving anything with sandstone.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

Judge is a whatever move, as long as they

Has anyone said he has no offensive experience?
I think it's more that he hasn't shown offense to be something he's good at, but rather something that the team he was a HC of was horrifically bad at. No experience... honestly would be better than "his offense was a raging trash fire at all times"

Until we know the scope it's not some horrific move, just a weird one with the potential to be really bad if he has major responsibilities.

Post 76, for one.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Post 76, for one.

to me that's the same question of "what has he shown to indicate he's good at coaching offense". Maybe the poster meant "experience" but to me pedigree means a record of success

 

[jmanny24]

to me that's the same question of "what has he shown to indicate he's good at coaching offense". Maybe the poster meant "experience" but to me pedigree means a record of success

That's exactly what I meant, I never said he had no success. I asked what has he done to show he can be successful in this type of role. Also, asking coaches what they think during practice isn't example of fresh ideas, hiring someone outside of your circle with a new set of eyes is.

 

[Mystic Merlin]

That's exactly what I meant, I never said he had no success. I asked what has he done to show he can be successful in this type of role. Also, asking coaches what they think during practice isn't example of fresh ideas, hiring someone outside of your circle with a new set of eyes is.

Uh, why?

This idea that great teams employ, and should employ, a Team of Rivals philosophy to staff-building, where you deliberately hire coaches with different approaches to the game, doesn’t appear come with any examples attached to it.

I also don’t understand how a staff has to come from different systems/philosophical backgrounds in order to generate ‘fresh ideas.’ You are just stating that as some kind of widely accepted fact.

You are also discounting the very real risk that if you hire coaches with the objective of introducing different perspectives for its own sake that you’ll create an unacceptable degree of conflict. Some coaches’ philosophies in terms of coaching approaches and in-game strategy are not compatible, not to mention any potential personality conflicts. Mike Martz working under BB would be ripe for disaster.

It’s about balance in compatibility and a willingness to engage in healthy debate, not about bringing people in that Bill hasn’t worked with for its own sake. They seem to have done a pretty good job of that over the years when rolling over the coaching staff.

 

[Shelterdog]

Not trying to be a dink about this but isn’t it pretty well understood that particularly on all NFL team but particularly in New England a lot of the coaching staff has roles in scouting/creating game plans/ reviewing film? BB had years of seeing what Juge thought about approaching a game. There’s no reason to think that Judge hasn’t shown enough to BB to have earned BBS trust that Judge can handle whatever role he gets.

 

[BusRaker]

I'm going to put the pieces together that Judge was competent and successful when assigned various tasks but sucked (so far) when it came to leadership and hiring responsibilities. I work with a lot of people like that.

 

[Over Guapo Grande]

There was a post in this forum recently- I can't recall off the top of my head which thread, sorry; But BB stated that he has his O/D philosophy, so he will look to hire people that can go along with that, and then grow/change as that philosophy changes.

 

[BigJimEd]

Not trying to be a dink about this but isn’t it pretty well understood that particularly on all NFL team but particularly in New England a lot of the coaching staff has roles in scouting/creating game plans/ reviewing film? BB had years of seeing what Juge thought about approaching a game. There’s no reason to think that Judge hasn’t shown enough to BB to have earned BBS trust that Judge can handle whatever role he gets.

To your point BB has said in the past, he believes Judge could coach all phases of the game. That is why I am not overly concerned about the hire but still hope they are not done on the offensive side.


Official Patriots statement on the hiring

https://www.patriots.com/news/patriots-hire-joe-judge-as-offensive-assistant

he New England Patriots announced that Joe Judge has been hired as offensive assistant. Judge spent eight seasons with the Patriots from 2012 through the 2019 season and was a part of three Super Bowl championships with the team.

 

[Shelterdog]

To your point BB has said in the past, he believes Judge could coach all phases of the game. That is why I am not overly concerned about the hire but still hope they are not done on the offensive side.


Official Patriots statement on the hiring

https://www.patriots.com/news/patriots-hire-joe-judge-as-offensive-assistant

Yup.

Not going out of my way to defend the Judge legacy in NY but he lacked the one thing most successful NFL coaches have: a good QB. Two covid years coaching a team with very limited talent and Dan Jones as your QB is not going to look good even if he had handled parts of his job better.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

I'm more than a little concerned about the eventual succession plan when Bill finally does step down. Josh clearly had stayed the past few years when he would likely have had other HC opportunities, but taking the Raiders job appears to indicate that he wasn't willing to wait forever (not that the Patriots owed him anything as long as BB is still up for the job). Numerous scribes have already written that one of the pluses of bringing back O'Brien is that he also could serve as an in-house head coach in waiting. I know that whoever succeeds Belichick has massive shoes to fill and will likely comes across as a huge downgrade, but the idea of BOB being that guy makes me want to throw up in my mouth.

Why does hiring Bill O ' Brien make you throw up in your mouth? When he was the Pats OC, they were very successful on offense. Now granted it is hard to separate Brady versus the OC's responsibility in the Pats offense, but the Pats had the number 1 rated offense in both 2010 and 2012. He oversaw the integration of Gronk and Hernandez into the offense and made Danny Woodhead into a useful piece.
As a head coach Bill O'Brian should receive credit for getting the Texans into the playoffs 5 out of 6 years. That is pretty impressive for any coach.

 

[BaseballJones]

I'm going to put the pieces together that Judge was competent and successful when assigned various tasks but sucked (so far) when it came to leadership and hiring responsibilities. I work with a lot of people like that.

And moreover, lots of guys suck at their first NFL HC gig but improve and get better the second time around. His terrible stint with the Giants in no way reflects on his ability to help the Patriots in an assistant role.