Rolling the dice - Patriots OTL staffing plan

Captaincoop

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he definitely does not. He may have 1 assault (not clear) a disorderly conduct and an interfering with a firefighter. All 30 years ago. plus a DUI 20 years ago.
Beyond that though.... if you think that stuff would stop him from getting a college HC job you are crazy, we literally know he was offered one 2 years ago in a major conference.
We don't know that at all. We know that it was reported.
 

leftfieldlegacy

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Even if he is don't you think there may be a concern that his past could be used to negatively recruit against him? That' essentially why Mike Price lost his job so quickly years ago--the fear was that after a sex scandal he couldn't recruit in religious homes in the south which you kind of need to do as Bama's coach.
If he had a sex scandal attached to his record then I might agree with you, but I think most people (families of recruits) would look past his particular transgressions and would be more concerned about the financial benefits that thier kid can haul in under the new rules for college athletes. Having a coach in your living room with a 20 year old history of bar fights and DUI isn't going to move the needle away from that. (IMO).
 

Shelterdog

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If he had a sex scandal attached to his record then I might agree with you, but I think most people (families of recruits) would look past his particular transgressions and would be more concerned about the financial benefits that thier kid can haul in under the new rules for college athletes. Having a coach in your living room with a 20 year old history of bar fights and DUI isn't going to move the needle away from that. (IMO).
Well, we'll see. I personally don't give a darn about him one way or the other.

It's looking a lot like the Chiefs are going to make him the scapegoat for this year so we'll find out about his other job prospects pretty quickly.
 

Devizier

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Who's the last head coaching hire with a criminal rap sheet?
Good question, but I’ll counter with that fact that being a college coach protects you against criminal charges to some degree. I’m thinking about Senator Tom Osborne as a prominent example.
 

Van Everyman

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If he had a sex scandal attached to his record then I might agree with you,
but I think most people (families of recruits) would look past his particular transgressions and would be more concerned about the financial benefits that thier kid can haul in under the new rules for college athletes. Having a coach in your living room with a 20 year old history of bar fights and DUI isn't going to move the needle away from that. (IMO).
49521

Has there been any update on BOB? Last I heard, there was “mutual interest” but also some concern that Saban might not want to part with him.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I wonder if the apparent eagerness of Pats coaches to jump ship and follow McDaniels reflects a view, at least among those coahces, that BB has lost his fastball or is near the end. Last season ended in a very ignominious (and uncharacteristic of BB) way. On the other hand, McD did not last 2 full seasons as a coach in his first try and it would not be the worst bet to expect BB to still be coaching the Pats when McD loses his job.
 

Jimbodandy

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I wonder if the apparent eagerness of Pats coaches to jump ship and follow McDaniels reflects a view, at least among those coahces, that BB has lost his fastball or is near the end. Last season ended in a very ignominious (and uncharacteristic of BB) way. On the other hand, McD did not last 2 full seasons as a coach in his first try and it would not be the worst bet to expect BB to still be coaching the Pats when McD loses his job.
You may be overthinking it. Guys take roles that are either promotions or at least perceived promotions (more autonomy, etc.).

If anything, Bill might be seeing some downside of not promoting guys more aggressively and publicly. Or guys see McDaniels as a rising star. Who knows.

The org here is pretty damn stable, and I can't imagine a coach that's on more stable footing than BFB. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
 

Eddie Jurak

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You may be overthinking it. Guys take roles that are either promotions or at least perceived promotions (more autonomy, etc.).

If anything, Bill might be seeing some downside of not promoting guys more aggressively and publicly. Or guys see McDaniels as a rising star. Who knows.

The org here is pretty damn stable, and I can't imagine a coach that's on more stable footing than BFB. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
That's been generally true, but the coaching staff turnover over the past 2-3 years has not really resembled the first 18 or so.
 

Super Nomario

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That's been generally true, but the coaching staff turnover over the past 2-3 years has not really resembled the first 18 or so.
This is a heavy loss period when it comes to coaching loss, but it's not unique. In 2005 both the OC (Weis) and DC (Crennel) left in the same year, and the next DC (Mangini) left the year after. In 2010 we had neither a named OC nor a named DC.
 

Jimbodandy

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That's been generally true, but the coaching staff turnover over the past 2-3 years has not really resembled the first 18 or so.
I'm not saying that you're crazy, but it does seem likely that this is just another of those turnover spikes. Unless there's some other indicator that things are amiss, it's probably nothing.
 

lars10

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I wonder if the apparent eagerness of Pats coaches to jump ship and follow McDaniels reflects a view, at least among those coahces, that BB has lost his fastball or is near the end. Last season ended in a very ignominious (and uncharacteristic of BB) way. On the other hand, McD did not last 2 full seasons as a coach in his first try and it would not be the worst bet to expect BB to still be coaching the Pats when McD loses his job.
Aren’t you the one who started the other fastball thread? Seems like you’re putting all the blame on Bill for the Buffalo loss.. and not all of the coaches that are leaving?

Also.. how bad is a season when you’re starting a rookie qb and you still play in a playoff game? Albeit not at home after some tough losses.. is making the playoffs a failure? Because there are a lot of teams that would like to fail that often.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Aren’t you the one who started the other fastball thread? Seems like you’re putting all the blame on Bill for the Buffalo loss.. and not all of the coaches that are leaving?

Also.. how bad is a season when you’re starting a rookie qb and you still play in a playoff game? Albeit not at home after some tough losses.. is making the playoffs a failure? Because there are a lot of teams that would like to fail that often.
I'm just surprised because I don't think we've seen a similar exodus of coaches up and down the staff before in the BB era. Several BB coaches have gotten jobs during the BB era, some have taken a guy or two along with them, but what McD has done seems like more than that.

How bad a season it was depends on perspective. This team was 9-4 and held the 1 seed and then folded like a cheap suit down the stretch, in a very un-BB-like manner. Then we saw a big exodus of assistant coaches.

Is what threads someone starts a proper topic of discussion in this forum?
 

BigJimEd

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I'm just surprised because I don't think we've seen a similar exodus of coaches up and down the staff before in the BB era. Several BB coaches have gotten jobs during the BB era, some have taken a guy or two along with them, but what McD has done seems like more than that.
Seems like it to you but is at a fact or more due to a potential bias? As others have said (which you seemed to have ignored), the Patriots have lost plenty of coaches before. Several times in the same offseason.

We don't even need to go as far back as some of those mentioned before. Look at when Flores left, Schuplinski, O'Shea, Daly and Boyer also left.

You can pull a Rob Parker and keep repeating Belichick has lost it and you may end up being correct but I don't see any evidence of it in these coaching moves.


Is what threads someone starts a proper topic of discussion in this forum?
You are discussing the same topic so how is it not relevant for @lars10 or any other poster to bring it up?
 

BigJimEd

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I have never said that Belichick has lost it, much less kept repeating it.
My apologies.

I wonder if the apparent eagerness of Pats coaches to jump ship and follow McDaniels reflects a view, at least among those coahces, that BB has lost his fastball or is near the end.
Read this quote as your belief that they were leaving because BB has lost it. But that is not what you said. I guess a better phrasing would be keep asking. :)

Anyway, my main point was that coaching movement this offseason does not seem out of the norm.
 

gryoung

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It’s pretty certain BB was very supportive of McDaniels getting a HC gig. I strongly doubt he was surprised with any of the coaching departures, to the point that they may well have discussed/agreed on who he might take.

BB has had a promote-from-within philosophy for most of his tenure and has built pretty solid bench strength in that direction.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Exodus seems a bit of an overreaction. When you lose a top coordinator to a head coaching job, you usually lose some others. The fact that so many Pats assistants have gotten head coaching gigs speaks pretty well of the system and org; as does the fact that many coaches come back.
 

lars10

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I'm just surprised because I don't think we've seen a similar exodus of coaches up and down the staff before in the BB era. Several BB coaches have gotten jobs during the BB era, some have taken a guy or two along with them, but what McD has done seems like more than that.

How bad a season it was depends on perspective. This team was 9-4 and held the 1 seed and then folded like a cheap suit down the stretch, in a very un-BB-like manner. Then we saw a big exodus of assistant coaches.

Is what threads someone starts a proper topic of discussion in this forum?
hey Eddie, I meant no disrespect.. I should have put a ;) after my comment since I knew you'd started the fastball thread so it sort of seemed an elaboration on the question... if his coaches were now considering whether or not BB has lost it or not in determining if they should leave or not.

I think, if anything, coaches leaving is more a sign of a good staff than anything else.

And you're right about the ending of the year not being great, but I think if one is being fair about the year.. the pats weren't as good as their winning streak and also not as bad as the end of the year.
 

streeter88

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And you're right about the ending of the year not being great, but I think if one is being fair about the year.. the pats weren't as good as their winning streak and also not as bad as the end of the year.
This point is right on. Has been discussed across multiple threads, but it’s a noteworthy piece of damage control (or control of leaks / what is revealed) that nothing has emerged as to why the team played so poorly after the bye week.

There have been a couple of comments at post game press conferences, but nothing more than either “we had a good week of practice and we were ready to go” or the opposite.

For me, this is the biggest concern as I watch what looks like fairly haphazard or unimpactful coaching staff rebuilding / restocking effort compared to other teams - particularly traditional rivals. We have all heard BB likes to build from within, but this something else.
 

Eddie Jurak

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hey Eddie, I meant no disrespect.. I should have put a ;) after my comment since I knew you'd started the fastball thread so it sort of seemed an elaboration on the question... if his coaches were now considering whether or not BB has lost it or not in determining if they should leave or not.

I think, if anything, coaches leaving is more a sign of a good staff than anything else.

And you're right about the ending of the year not being great, but I think if one is being fair about the year.. the pats weren't as good as their winning streak and also not as bad as the end of the year.
It's all good, lars.

It was a good year to build on, for sure.
 

Van Everyman

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I kind of take this as Bill saying they won’t be naming an OC – and likely will be personally involved in the offense this year at least until it’s up and running.

Which also means he probably feels like the coaching on the defensive side is in good hands with Steve and ‘Rod.

I know people are down on Patricia and Judge and understand. But having two ex-HCs who have run whole programs (even if badly), who know Bill’s system and who he can trust to manage his new QB and protection schemes should probably make us feel pretty good.
 

Cellar-Door

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I kind of take this as Bill saying they won’t be naming an OC – and likely will be personally involved in the offense this year at least until it’s up and running.

Which also means he probably feels like the coaching on the defensive side is in good hands with Steve and ‘Rod.

I know people are down on Patricia and Judge and understand. But having two ex-HCs who have run whole programs (even if badly), who know Bill’s system and who he can trust to manage his new QB and protection schemes should probably make us feel pretty good.
Why? I don't get the idea that guys who failed at executive jobs make better specialists, especially in areas they have no past history as specialists. HC is a job that is pretty different even from coordinator, it's why a lot of guys fail the first time, and some guys never make it. But on the reverse, it doesn't make you any better at the specialist jobs.
 

bakahump

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A house is only as strong as its foundation. And a Coaching staff is only as good as its Position coaches.
Being able to trust that you OL and RBs (for instance) will be able to do what the OC needs/wants them to do is invaluable. It opens the playbook and lets you assume a level of competence.
Fears and Scharneccia were invaluable in preparing not only the big stuff but the little stuff. They were good enough for Bill/Josh to be able to say "we might do x or y so have them ready". They knew there would be a "high floor" level of preparedness.
Our issues we are and will face is not losing Josh or Mayo or other Coordinator level coach but rather the guys below them.

Josh can be replaced by a BoB for instance. There are any number of good young DCs or High level Senior assistants that you could pick from.
But finding a great OL coach is tough. They move up and the move on. Finding a great RB coach is tough. They move on and move up.

In the tell all book we will never get it wouldnt surprise me if BB lays alot of the success on having guys like Fears, Schar and Groh.
 

Van Everyman

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Why? I don't get the idea that guys who failed at executive jobs make better specialists, especially in areas they have no past history as specialists. HC is a job that is pretty different even from coordinator, it's why a lot of guys fail the first time, and some guys never make it. But on the reverse, it doesn't make you any better at the specialist jobs.
I think it’s more that we’ve seen plenty of great specialists who failed as head coaches return to be great specialists again. Like McDaniels.

And these guys are known to be excellent specialists. I know people like to grumble about 2017 with Patricia, but the defenses from 2014-2016 under his watch were excellent – the 2016 team lead the league in points allowed. And while Judge stank out loud in NY, he was pretty much universally regarded as one of the best special teams coaches in the game for six years in New England – and also served as wide receivers coach when Chad O’Shea left.

Unless you think that their success was entirely due to “Well, Bill was the *real* coach of those defenses/special teams units,” seems like people have a severe case of recency bias in the case of both of these guys. Going forward, you have the added bonus that even if this team runs the table and somehow wins the Super Bowl, it’s hard to imagine that any team will be clamoring to hire Joe Judge and Matt Patricia to be their head coaches next offseason.
 

Cellar-Door

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I think it’s more that we’ve seen plenty of great specialists who failed as head coaches return to be great specialists again. Like McDaniels.

And these guys are known to be excellent specialists. I know people like to grumble about 2017 with Patricia, but the defenses from 2014-2016 under his watch were excellent – the 2016 team lead the league in points allowed. And while Judge stank out loud in NY, he was pretty much universally regarded as one of the best special teams coaches in the game for six years in New England – and also served as wide receivers coach when Chad O’Shea left.

Unless you think that their success was entirely due to “Well, Bill was the *real* coach of those defenses/special teams units,” seems like people have a severe case of recency bias in the case of both of these guys. Going forward, you have the added bonus that even if this team runs the table and somehow wins the Super Bowl, it’s hard to imagine that any team will be clamoring to hire Joe Judge and Matt Patricia to be their head coaches next offseason.
Oh I agree, that specialists can be good. My point was more.... why would guys being bad head coaches make you feel better about them as specialists..... in areas they have never been specialists before? If Judge was going to coach ST, or Patricia be a defensive assistant, then you can look to their track record as specialists.

That isn't what I quoted though, what I quoted was the part that made the case that we should feel good about Judge and Patricia in roles they have never had before, based on them managing programs (even poorly) as head coaches... WHY? I mean, being a really bad head coach, as both were doesn't increase the chances you are a good specialist, particularly in a new area.

I would feel far better if we had hired guys with experience as good OL and QB coaches than guys with the "former HC" tag who never coached those positions.

Look, both could be good, and Bill clearly thinks that experience with a given position isn't that important in coaching.... but he's made mistakes before in thinking he could replace Dante. And having an elite OL coach (and arguably QB coach) has been an advantage for us in the past. I don't think anything about Patricia or Judge's background should make people feel particularly good about their appointments.