Roger G's Wheel of Justice

glennhoffmania

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Shelterdog said:
His skills aren't unique but his knowledge and relationships developed over a long career aren't easily replicable. Lots of people could do his job if they put in twenty years in the industry but that's a big if.
 
I'm not saying he brings nothing to the table.  He obviously does.  I'm suggesting that other people could bring those same skills to the table without the other bullshit.  This incident is proof of that.  A competent commissioner would've handled the Rice saga better and avoided this PR nightmare.  We're talking about an incredibly visible, powerful and lucrative position that could certainly attract other qualified people who could accomplish what Goodell has without the downside.  I'm not suggesting they could easily replace him by posting on Craig's list.  But I feel confident saying that they could replace him with someone better if they put a little effort into it.
 

Harry Hooper

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The Florio pieces are notable.
 
 
Independent?:
 
When I saw that two old-guard owners would oversee what would otherwise be an independent investigation, I became a little concerned that the investigation wouldn’t truly be independent.
When I realized that the man hired to do the investigation works for WilmerHale, the law firm that helped the NFL recently negotiate a multi-billion-dollar contract with DirecTV, any hope of true and genuine independence evaporated.  As explained by ESPN.com, the firm previously has represented Washington owner Daniel Snyder, and several members of the firm have taken jobs with NFL teams.
One such former WilmerHale employee is, coincidentally, Ravens president Dick Cass, who joined the club after thirty-plus years at the firm.
While the tentacles aren’t as numerous as those connecting the league office to a law firm like Covington & Burling, the NFL-WilmerHale linkage suggests that Robert Mueller isn’t and won’t be truly independent.  At some level, Mueller possibly will be influenced by his firm’s separate relationship with the NFL.  Even if he isn’t, the appearance of a potential influence makes it impossible to fully trust the independence of the investigation.
 
 
I can't agree with his nominating Tagliabue for the job, though. In the abstract, he makes sense, but it has to be someone with no NFL history.
 
 
Tape really needed?:
 
a bombshell emerged from Ravens G.M. Ozzie Newsome:  Ray Rice didn’t lie.
Ray Rice didn’t lie.  Which means the story Rice told was consistent with and not ambiguous in relation to what the video showed.  Which means that, regardless of whether the tape was or wasn’t sent to the league office and whether it did or didn’t snake its way to the guy at the top of the organizational chart, the NFL knew what Rice had done.
But the issue remains unclear, because team president Dick Cass suggested that someone told the team and the league something other than what the tape shows.
“There’s a big difference between reading a report that says he knocked her unconscious or being told that someone had slapped someone and that she had hit her head,” Cass told the Baltimore Sun.  “That is one version of the facts.  That’s what we understood to be the case.  When you see the video, it just looks very different than what we understood the facts to be.”
So did Ray Rice lie, or didn’t he?  Did Rice create ambiguities and inconsistencies, or didn’t he?  Newsome, who per multiple sources was in the room when Rice met with Goodell, says Rice didn’t lie.
But Cass was in the room, too.  And Cass is sticking with the notion that he was told Rice had merely slapped Janay, and that she then hit her head.
The best way to know what Rice did or didn’t say would be to review exactly what he said.  Inexplicably, the league doesn’t generate transcripts of these meetings between players and Roger Goodell.
Then again, maybe it’s not inexplicable.  The NFL generally likes to do whatever it wants to do, in any given case.  Having rules and transcripts and other official procedures can be an impediment to the broader desire to decide on a case-by-case basis whatever it is that the league wants to do.
 
 

Dan Murfman

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Francesa opened his show with that Levin from TMZ will be on at 3 and that they believe they have the name of the woman on the voice mail
 

Harry Hooper

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BigSoxFan said:
Who cares? The NFL has probably given her $1 million to legally change her name to set up the "nobody by that name works here" defense.
 
She's working for Budweiser down in Rio by now.
 

dcmissle

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More seriously, take this step by step.

1. If TMZ has a piece of this action, you have to assume they are continuing to pursue it along with AP. And, if they have a name, both may be further along than we may have believed last night.

2. Until proven otherwise. I will credit the AP report. It's a credible news organization, and note last night the NFL did not deny the report. It said it would "look into it."

3. Assuming the woman whose voice was captured is an administrative assistant, it is almost inconceivable that she did not give the tape to some boss. This is not something you forget, especially after noting that the tape was bad.

4. If the NFL, even with her acquiescence, tries to pin this on the admin, they better make damn sure she is telling the truth. Women's groups would go nuts given the dynamic of this case, and you have to assume she will be hailed to Capital Hill and out under oath. It is the rare person who would lie once there because she has to figure that lots of people know things about this that she doesn't.

5. So assuming this went to some boss, doesn't that person bring it to his or her boss, and so on up the chain? This is disturbing and inflammatory material; you've seen the tape of when the elevator door opens, and this is the rest of the story. Your boss will have to make an important decision.

This is not heading in a good direction.

Best guess, somebody will cop to telling someone else, "the boss does not need to see this: we get what happened." Chris Christie redux. Plausible deniability.

When that person is asked, how could you let Roger say these things this week when the story broke, the fall guy will say, "I meant to, but things happened too fast."
 

Ed Hillel

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Dan Murfman said:
Francesa opened his show with that Levin from TMZ will be on at 3 and that they believe they have the name of the woman on the voice mail
 
This can only be a bad thing. They should leave her some privacy and instead give an inkling as to her position, i.e. how high up the ladder she is without naming a specific position. There's nothing at this point to indicate she did anything wrong, and she doesn't need 500 reporters sitting outside her house for the next month or so.
 

PedroKsBambino

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SoSH has already been declared an Eric Wilbur-free zone. Did it on the main board a while ago. Never mention him or anything he writes again. He's the biggest piece of shit in the Boston media, and that's saying something.
 
This is a spectacular development I had missed---kudos, sir, on your excellent judgment
 

PedroKsBambino

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Harry Hooper said:
The Florio pieces are notable.
 
 
Independent?:
 
 
I can't agree with his nominating Tagliabue for the job, though. In the abstract, he makes sense, but it has to be someone with no NFL history.
 
 
 
It's a bizarre suggestion that the way to avoid potential conflicts with a WilmerHale attorney is to hire Tagliabue, who works at Covington & Burling, a firm which (as Florio acknowledges) has even deeper ties to NFL than WilmerHale.
 
I suspect Florio is unaware that Tags was a Covington partner before he became Sec of Transportation, that he maintained an NFL office in Covington's office space while commissioner, and that he current is back at the firm as 'senior of counsel'
 

soxhop411

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National Football League commissioner Roger Goodell didn't pursue the Ray Rice domestic-violence incident as vigorously as he might have out of respect for Rice's now-wife, Janay, according to one NFL owner.
In conversations about the Rice case over the summer, the owner said, Goodell privately told other owners that during his investigation, in a meeting with the Rices in June, Janay Rice said she had struck her then-fiancée and that she believed she was partly at fault for the incident. Goodell also said he left the meeting believing that Janay Rice had become unconscious because she had fallen during the scuffle.
After Goodell suspended Rice for two games in July, this person said, Goodell told several NFL owners that he felt it would have been insensitive to question Janay Rice's story because it would have come across as an indictment of her character. Two people familiar with the commissioner's thinking, including the owner, said they believe the thoroughness of the investigation, and Goodell's decision to suspend Rice for two games, both reflected Goodell's discomfort with challenging Janay Rice's story.
The NFL declined to comment. Ray and Janay Rice, through their attorney, declined to comment.
On Wednesday, the NFL announced that Robert Mueller, the former FBI chief, would conduct an investigation into the league's handling of the Rice case, which will be overseen by New York Giants owner John Mara and Pittsburgh Steelers president Art Rooney II.
At issue in the investigation is whether Goodell and other NFL executives saw the video footage of the altercation between the Rice's inside an Atlantic City, N.J. elevator, which seems to show Rice leveling Janay with a blow that knocked her over into the side of the elevator.
After a tape of the incident was released Monday by TMZ, Rice was released by the Baltimore Ravens and indefinitely suspended by the NFL. Goodell has said that neither he, nor anyone in his office had seen the video before Monday.
The Associated Press on Wednesday quoted an unnamed law-enforcement official who said he had sent a video of the incident to an NFL executive in April. In a statement, the NFL said "we are not aware of anyone who possessed or saw the video before it was made public on Monday."
http://online.wsj.com/articles/roger-goodell-feared-backlash-in-ray-rice-investigation-1410463671?tesla=y&mg=reno64-wsj
 

glennhoffmania

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Is that called a quadruple down?  This guy is a total clown.  If there are no consequences here he's a total hypocrite.  He holds players and coaches to a pretty high standard that he apparently has no interest in meeting himself.
 

dcmissle

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Now owners are down in the engine room shoveling coal.

We've seen this action before, friends. Most of us are quite familiar with it. 4 Yawkey Way.
 

Fred in Lynn

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The authors of the Yahoo Finance article Van posted are stretching things a bit. The public money they cite has already been spent to build or fund stadiums. It's not coming back because a player assaulted his fiance in an elevator and the NFL may have acted awfully in response. Since they mentioned it, use of public funds through tax breaks to private entities, sales tax increases, etc., to build shiny new facilities and increase the value of franchises for wealthy private interests is a crying shame, but it has no bearing on the Rice matter. If it did - and I am only slightly sorry for being callous here - then I can live with Mrs. Rice getting slapped around. Of course, it doesn't, so I don't have to feel bad about it. The public's only recourse is to not invest in the NFL: don't watch, protest sponsors, and so on. Color me skeptical. Money talks. This will barely register.
 

Ed Hillel

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I'm enjoying that we have owners now that are so proud of the job Roger is doing that they are choosing to remain anonymous. At least I give Kraft credit for not hiding behind the shadow.
 

dcmissle

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Ed Hillel said:
I'm enjoying that we have owners now that are so proud of the job Roger is doing that they are choosing to remain anonymous. At least I give Kraft credit for not hiding behind the shadow.
Bawb may have had what my grandfather affectionately called an eye-opener .
 

dcmissle

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Here's the deal. You can't have it both ways.

The independent investigation gives you an invaluable opportunity to STFU and deflect any questions. "Can't comment; subject of the inquiry announced by the League."

But you cannot do this and spin too. You can't do it even if you're a billionaire used to getting his way on every goddamn thing. Because it's bigger than you now, and because this will only fuel the people working the story.
 

The Napkin

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Holy shit the comments from Polian that Felger and Mazz just played.
One at 10:47 then one at 11:08. Totally different things. 20 minutes and someone got to him. You have to hear this to believe it.
 

OnWisc

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"Goodell also said he left the meeting believing that Janay Rice had become unconscious because she had fallen during the scuffle."

To play devil's advocate, this isn't that far fetched. I fell the other day and became unconscious. A guy at the gym the other day tripped when getting getting off a stationary bike and was probably out for over 5 minutes. And last winter the sidewalks here in Chicago were just littered with unconscious people who had fallen on some ice or crusty snow. If I can't sleep, sometimes I'll just fall on purpose to knock myself out.

The NFL should immediate implement a new policy that says something along the lines of everybody shut the fuck up.
 

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What an unbelievable pile of crap that new storyline is.  Out of respect to the victim?  The victim was unconscious...then dragged out of the elevator like an old rug.  She knows what happened leading up to getting hit, and after that, it's light's out.  Not to mention that in cases of dv, the victim is often not a reliable source of information, especially when the abuser is sitting right next to her.
 
I just can't believe these guys don't stop talking.  With every statement, the NFL looks more and more foolish and deceitful. 
 

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What a fucking clown.  He was under the impression she became unconscious after falling?  Does it matter whether the punch knocked her out or whether he knocked her down and the floor knocked her out? 
 

OnWisc

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Scriblerus said:
I just can't believe these guys don't stop talking.  With every statement, the NFL looks more and more foolish and deceitful.
This. I've never seen anything like it.
 

Ralphwiggum

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I was under the impression that he cold cocked Janay, but that she was still conscious after the punch, and was only knocked unconscious when she hit the floor.  Thus, the 2 game suspension.  Once I saw the video and realized it was either his fist or the side of the elevator that knocked her unconscious, and not the floor, it was clear that a longer suspension was warranted.
 

Scriblerus

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I'm still shocked that they conducted the interview with Janay with Rice in the room, as well as with several league officials and Goodell.  Were they all men?  For a business that recently got a lot of attention for bullying, it sure feels like Janay was put into a very uncomfortable situation that would encourage her to go with the party line as to what happend.  Of course, as I read somewhere upthread, the NFL doesn't record or transcript those meetings, so it's Goodell's word on all of this, right?  And now, Goodell is using that meeting as an excuse as to why he didn't look into the reality of the incident? 
 
If he had so much respect for Janay, he would conducted that interview much differently and worked to get the most accurate information possible.  If he had respect for her, he wouldn't be continuing the victim-blaming that has been the only consistent thread through this whole situation.
 

Ed Hillel

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Scriblerus said:
I'm still shocked that they conducted the interview with Janay with Rice in the room, as well as with several league officials and Goodell.  Were they all men?  For a business that recently got a lot of attention for bullying, it sure feels like Janay was put into a very uncomfortable situation that would encourage her to go with the party line as to what happend.  Of course, as I read somewhere upthread, the NFL doesn't record or transcript those meetings, so it's Goodell's word on all of this, right?  And now, Goodell is using that meeting as an excuse as to why he didn't look into the reality of the incident? 
 
If he had so much respect for Janay, he would conducted that interview much differently and worked to get the most accurate information possible.  If he had respect for her, he wouldn't be continuing the victim-blaming that has been the only consistent thread through this whole situation.
 
There's also the complete disconnect between what they are claiming was said to Roger and what the Ravens say Rice said to them. Of course, the Ravens still sent Janay out there to apologize, but we've already established that Ravens gotta Raven.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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National Football League commissioner Roger Goodell didn't pursue the Ray Rice domestic-violence incident as vigorously as he might have out of respect for Rice's now-wife, Janay, according to one NFL owner.
 
Steam coming out of my ears.  I cannot believe this shit.  I've been pretty measured throughout, but this is beyond the pale.  Absolutely shameful.
 
The worst part of this is that this prick dinosaur owner wouldn't permit attribution.  "Let's get an owner anonymously to float a trial balloon and see how how flies."  I'm slightly heartened by the fact that it probably isn't Kraft given that he already stepped in it once and is too smart to do it again.  Man would I love to know who signed up to float this putrid turd to the WSJ.  
 
I think this pretty much confirms that the league's decision to embed two owners in the investigation is exactly what it seems to be.
 
Edit:  Clarity
 

Cellar-Door

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Ralphwiggum said:
I was under the impression that he cold cocked Janay, but that she was still conscious after the punch, and was only knocked unconscious when she hit the floor.  Thus, the 2 game suspension.  Once I saw the video and realized it was either his fist or the side of the elevator that knocked her unconscious, and not the floor, it was clear that a longer suspension was warranted.
slightly unfair.
If he didn't see the video his assumption could have been based on what the two Rices told him. If they said that she was hitting him and he hit her back and she slipped and fell, that is pretty different from him knocking her down with a punch.
 
The issue with that of course is that he probably should have looked at the evidence instead of taking at face value the story of Rice and the woman he was abusing considering the problems inherent in getting reliable testimony from a domestic abuse victim who has stayed with the abuser. (Even less likely to happen when she is giving it in a room with her abusive now husband, his lawyer, and his wholly supportive employer and their lawyers.
 

Drocca

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Most of us are going to fall and eat a little shit at some point. But for the love of God do I pray that when my hubris catches up to me it's not over protecting a washed up running back wife beater.

Not a solid look.
 

Comfortably Lomb

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Harry Hooper said:
The Florio pieces are notable.
 
 
Independent?:
 
 
I can't agree with his nominating Tagliabue for the job, though. In the abstract, he makes sense, but it has to be someone with no NFL history.
 
 
Tape really needed?:
 
 
It's not inexplicable that the league wouldn't want to create a paper trail of meetings between the commissioner and players.
 

Bosoxen

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Comfortably Lomb said:
 
It's not inexplicable that the league wouldn't want to create a paper trail of meetings between the commissioner and players.
 
I imagine that meeting went a little something like the scene in Scent of a Woman where the headmaster tries to bribe/strong-arm the kid into telling him what he wants to know.
 

changer591

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Can I ask if this is a likely scenario?  The only reason I ask is because I feel like so many of these posts don't consider what I feel are realistic possibilities of what may have happened.
Both Janay and Ray Rice told the story where she "attacked" him and in some sort of defense, he punched her, she went down, hit her head on the railing and got knocked out.  When Goodell interviewed them (stupidly both at the same time in the same room), the both said the same thing and she even admitted to be partially at fault for what transpired.  I'm thinking that there is no reason to further investigate the matter when both sides are saying the same thing...why would it be Goodell's responsibility to pursue the matter more?  It's not even a he said/she said thing...they were saying the same thing!
As for the video, is it out of the realm of possibility that the video got sent to the Ravens (or to some other lower level NFL executive) and that it just stopped at that level and didn't make it further up the chain?  I figure the NFL is built on various levels where Goodell is at the top, and I could see a case where someone was just like "oh boy...let's just not let this go any further."
I just found it odd that everyone is so quick to say Goodell is lying and is 100% at fault.  While he may eventually the fall guy, I can certainly see a viewpoint where he is not the sole reason this whole thing went to crap.  Ultimately, as an NFL fan and someone who is married and is about to have his first kid, the only person I care to have burnt by all this is Ray Rice.  What do I care if Goodell gets fired or resigns?  He handled something regarding domestic violence poorly, just like every other commissioner of every other sport ever...my only hope is that he, and/or all the other people that run sports (owners, other commishes) learn from this mess and move forward.
 

Ralphwiggum

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Cellar-Door said:
slightly unfair.
If he didn't see the video his assumption could have been based on what the two Rices told him. If they said that she was hitting him and he hit her back and she slipped and fell, that is pretty different from him knocking her down with a punch.
 
The issue with that of course is that he probably should have looked at the evidence instead of taking at face value the story of Rice and the woman he was abusing considering the problems inherent in getting reliable testimony from a domestic abuse victim who has stayed with the abuser. (Even less likely to happen when she is giving it in a room with her abusive now husband, his lawyer, and his wholly supportive employer and their lawyers.
 
Yes, my version was an exaggeration but as you note the way for him to have known what went down in the elevator would have been to watch the video.  Plus, apparently Rice was honest with the Ravens and presumably was with the NFL as well, which does not support the possibility that the Rice's told him something completely different.  Either way, the statement that he was under the impression that she was knocked unconscious from falling is ridiculous.  The entire thing is odious. 
 

hikeeba

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Expected response from every owner: "Roger Goodell is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life."
 

Ralphwiggum

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changer591 said:
Can I ask if this is a likely scenario?  The only reason I ask is because I feel like so many of these posts don't consider what I feel are realistic possibilities of what may have happened.
Both Janay and Ray Rice told the story where she "attacked" him and in some sort of defense, he punched her, she went down, hit her head on the railing and got knocked out.  When Goodell interviewed them (stupidly both at the same time in the same room), the both said the same thing and she even admitted to be partially at fault for what transpired.  I'm thinking that there is no reason to further investigate the matter when both sides are saying the same thing...why would it be Goodell's responsibility to pursue the matter more?  It's not even a he said/she said thing...they were saying the same thing!
As for the video, is it out of the realm of possibility that the video got sent to the Ravens (or to some other lower level NFL executive) and that it just stopped at that level and didn't make it further up the chain?  I figure the NFL is built on various levels where Goodell is at the top, and I could see a case where someone was just like "oh boy...let's just not let this go any further."
I just found it odd that everyone is so quick to say Goodell is lying and is 100% at fault.  While he may eventually the fall guy, I can certainly see a viewpoint where he is not the sole reason this whole thing went to crap.  Ultimately, as an NFL fan and someone who is married and is about to have his first kid, the only person I care to have burnt by all this is Ray Rice.  What do I care if Goodell gets fired or resigns?  He handled something regarding domestic violence poorly, just like every other commissioner of every other sport ever...my only hope is that he, and/or all the other people that run sports (owners, other commishes) learn from this mess and move forward.
 
So you are saying that maybe (I) he interviewed the Rices together and never talked to Janay without her husband present, (II) took at face value their story that conveniently painted the altercation in the light most favorable to Ray Rice, (III) failed to watch the 30 second video that would have either confirmed their story or revealed it as a lie since hey, their stories match, and domestic violence victims are never bullied into making sure that the "official" story they tell authorities is one that ensures that the batterer is treated with leniency (and unless he completely ignores guys like Chris Mortensen he knew the video existed when he handed down the punishment), and (IV) based on this, only handed out a 2 game suspension to the guy who you admit you want to see burnt by this.
 
So, yeah, I guess in this version of events maybe he's not a liar. 
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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changer591 said:
Can I ask if this is a likely scenario?  The only reason I ask is because I feel like so many of these posts don't consider what I feel are realistic possibilities of what may have happened.
Both Janay and Ray Rice told the story where she "attacked" him and in some sort of defense, he punched her, she went down, hit her head on the railing and got knocked out.  When Goodell interviewed them (stupidly both at the same time in the same room), the both said the same thing and she even admitted to be partially at fault for what transpired.  I'm thinking that there is no reason to further investigate the matter when both sides are saying the same thing...why would it be Goodell's responsibility to pursue the matter more?  It's not even a he said/she said thing...they were saying the same thing!
 
 
If you think he acted in self defense, he should get no punishment.  It's completely unbelievable that an adult professional athlete who in your own scenario punched a woman hard enough for her to hit her head and become unconscious was responsible for her condition.  But if that's what you believe, why would you punish at all?  Once you have to start modifying it with "some sort of defense," it's pretty clear that you're only seeing what you want to see.  And once you get to "he punched her," there's nothing left to say.  
 
Putting the victim of domestic violence in the position where you're basing the punishment based on how she feels about it after the fact is shameful and reflects a pretty sophomoric (or willfully blind) understanding of the problem.  Prosecutors sometimes don't have a choice, because the constitution requires the accused be permitted to confront witnesses in court, and so the prosecutor has to make unfortunate choices about how the victim might be perceived and whether putting her through that is just a further violation.  The NFL doesn't have the same concerns.  And doing it while the accused is in the room is hardly a parenthetical point.  It's repulsive.
 

glennhoffmania

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NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has strong support among influential ownership groups, and barring overwhelming evidence of wrongdoing in the Ray Rice scandal that's unlikely to change.
 
What ownership and management officials are saying privately match the public comments of several organizations who back the commissioner.
 
Sources said their ownership groups have loyalty to Goodell and trust in him. In the words of one it would require an investigation to reveal that Goodell was "outright lying" about having watched the videotape of Rice punching his fiancée or having actively participated in a cover-up for them to foresee a scenario in which Goodell was fired.
 
"They're standing by him, across the board," said one league source who had spoken to executive on several clubs about the ongoing matter. "You haven't seen one owner come out questioning him. Their instinct is to defend him, and it's going to take quite a bit to change that."
 
 
There is an expectation among several teams that some jobs are on the line at the NFL office, particularly within NFL Security, but at this point based on what is known, it would be a shock if Goodell is let go.
 
 
Link
 
I feel ill.
 

changer591

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DennyDoyle'sBoil said:
 
If you think he acted in self defense, he should get no punishment.  It's completely unbelievable that an adult professional athlete who in your own scenario punched a woman hard enough for her to hit her head and become unconscious was responsible for her condition.  But if that's what you believe, why would you punish at all?  Once you have to start modifying it with "some sort of defense," it's pretty clear that you're only seeing what you want to see.  And once you get to "he punched her," there's nothing left to say.  
 
Putting the victim of domestic violence in the position where you're basing the punishment based on how she feels about it after the fact is shameful and reflects a pretty sophomoric (or willfully blind) understanding of the problem.  Prosecutors sometimes don't have a choice, because the constitution requires the accused be permitted to confront witnesses in court, and so the prosecutor has to make unfortunate choices about how the victim might be perceived and whether putting her through that is just a further violation.  The NFL doesn't have the same concerns.  And doing it while the accused is in the room is hardly a parenthetical point.  It's repulsive.
 
All I'm trying to say is that when you have both sides of a fight telling a story that doesn't make it sound as terrible as it obviously was (based on the second video), a person, who is not that sensitive to how domestic violence cases are and how the one being abused could be persuaded to act in a certain way, can easily feel like they are doing the "right" thing by suspending someone for 2 games.  Yes, I used the phrase "punched her", but perhaps Ray and Janay phrased it all in a different manner.
It's clearly apparently that Goodell isn't aware of what happens in domestic violence cases, and honestly, neither am I...I've learned quite a bit in the past few days about what consequences there are besides the obvious physical ones for domestic abuse.  I've learned that it's not as simple as "Why didn't she just leave him/report him/etc."  And yes, I do expect someone like the commissioner of the NFL to understand the different aspects of DV.  I hope no one thought I was defending Goodell, but rather just presenting a situation where someone who isn't learned about a subject can fall into a hole (which he obviously has), and a sequence of unfortunate events can cause that hole to just get deeper.  However, I do also feel like he is not a liar just because I would hope to believe he's gotten to his position because he had the basic intelligence to know that lying about something like not seeing a video in this day and age and getting away with it is ridiculous.
 
Edit: One last thing...and this I still don't get.  Hypothetically (I sound like Rice's lawyer now), if he was attacked, and had to defend himself by shoving her away, and she fell and hit her head...would that be classified as domestic abuse?  I just see a lot of gray area on what the story that was told to Goodell at the beginning could have.  Hindsight is 20/20 though and seeing the video, it's obvious there was no gray area.
 
Further Edit again:  But yeah, I see what you were saying...if he was defending himself, why suspend him at all?  I understand what you're getting at now.  A little slow late in the work day.
 

The Napkin

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You know, have we talked about the fact that she possibly doesn't really even remember what happened? I mean she was knocked out cold. Do we think it's a stretch that she was told she started it by Ray and that's part of why she feels so responsible?
 

jtn46

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changer591 said:
Can I ask if this is a likely scenario?  The only reason I ask is because I feel like so many of these posts don't consider what I feel are realistic possibilities of what may have happened.
Both Janay and Ray Rice told the story where she "attacked" him and in some sort of defense, he punched her, she went down, hit her head on the railing and got knocked out.  When Goodell interviewed them (stupidly both at the same time in the same room), the both said the same thing and she even admitted to be partially at fault for what transpired.  I'm thinking that there is no reason to further investigate the matter when both sides are saying the same thing...why would it be Goodell's responsibility to pursue the matter more?  It's not even a he said/she said thing...they were saying the same thing!
As for the video, is it out of the realm of possibility that the video got sent to the Ravens (or to some other lower level NFL executive) and that it just stopped at that level and didn't make it further up the chain?  I figure the NFL is built on various levels where Goodell is at the top, and I could see a case where someone was just like "oh boy...let's just not let this go any further."
I just found it odd that everyone is so quick to say Goodell is lying and is 100% at fault.  While he may eventually the fall guy, I can certainly see a viewpoint where he is not the sole reason this whole thing went to crap.  Ultimately, as an NFL fan and someone who is married and is about to have his first kid, the only person I care to have burnt by all this is Ray Rice.  What do I care if Goodell gets fired or resigns?  He handled something regarding domestic violence poorly, just like every other commissioner of every other sport ever...my only hope is that he, and/or all the other people that run sports (owners, other commishes) learn from this mess and move forward.
The problem is there was no reason to take Ray and Janay's account because obviously there was a tape.

Look suck all the emotion and empathy out of this, the NFL is a massive entity with plenty of clout and resources. The NFL is huge news, bountygate, spygate, the Incognito story, concussions, etc... were all national news that transcended football and sports. Someone in the NFL has to appreciate that this tape getting out would be a catastrophe. The other factor is the first tape was big news and TMZ got it, so it's not a huge leap to expect TMZ to get the second tape. If TMZ can get it, the NFL sure as shit can too. If MLB can pay off scumbags like Anthony Bosch to bust A-Rod, the NFL can make a phonecall to Revel casino.
 

OnWisc

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I feel ill.
Meh, I'd be surprised if this weren't the case. They'll strongly support him until the moment they don't. There are a lot of qualifiers in those comments.

If the furor dies down over the next week, then the investigation can turn up whatever it needs to and exonerate Goodell and the owners and the commissioner will happily move forward. But if Goodell remains front page news and still dominates the NFL storyline a week from now, I imagine the owners will realize that even if the investigation finds he didn't view the tape, people aren't going to buy it and he'll be out. Nothing has moved the needle on public opinion so far, and this investigation may not either (in fact, should the announced findings be favorable to Goodell, it could actually be viewed as more bullshit cover up and hurt the league even more). But if he's lasted this long into the week, why not see if he can make it to another news cycle and people lose interest.

Or, once some of an organization's operations and PR people start explaining to the owners how tone-deaf they sound, the party line may change.

I do have full faith in the investigation to turn up whatever will best suit the storyline the NFL decides to run with on this.
 

Average Reds

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changer591 said:
 
All I'm trying to say is that when you have both sides of a fight telling a story that doesn't make it sound as terrible as it obviously was (based on the second video), a person, who is not that sensitive to how domestic violence cases are and how the one being abused could be persuaded to act in a certain way, can easily feel like they are doing the "right" thing by suspending someone for 2 games.  Yes, I used the phrase "punched her", but perhaps Ray and Janay phrased it all in a different manner.
It's clearly apparently that Goodell isn't aware of what happens in domestic violence cases, and honestly, neither am I...I've learned quite a bit in the past few days about what consequences there are besides the obvious physical ones for domestic abuse.  I've learned that it's not as simple as "Why didn't she just leave him/report him/etc."  And yes, I do expect someone like the commissioner of the NFL to understand the different aspects of DV.  I hope no one thought I was defending Goodell, but rather just presenting a situation where someone who isn't learned about a subject can fall into a hole (which he obviously has), and a sequence of unfortunate events can cause that hole to just get deeper.  However, I do also feel like he is not a liar just because I would hope to believe he's gotten to his position because he had the basic intelligence to know that lying about something like not seeing a video in this day and age and getting away with it is ridiculous.
 
Edit: One last thing...and this I still don't get.  Hypothetically (I sound like Rice's lawyer now), if he was attacked, and had to defend himself by shoving her away, and she fell and hit her head...would that be classified as domestic abuse?  I just see a lot of gray area on what the story that was told to Goodell at the beginning could have.  Hindsight is 20/20 though and seeing the video, it's obvious there was no gray area.
 
Further Edit again:  But yeah, I see what you were saying...if he was defending himself, why suspend him at all?  I understand what you're getting at now.  A little slow late in the work day.
 
I know you are trying to play devil's advocate here, but a word of advice:  It's never good to be the literal advocate for the devil.
 
Your hypotheticals are meaningless because we know the truth.  Also because we know as a matter of logic and reason that the NFL either knew the truth or could have discovered the truth with minimal effort.  So Goodell is either lying or he decided to act with willful blindness to give himself plausible deniability.
 
I'm going to repeat what I have said a bunch of times over the past few days.  Goodell is lying.  His lies are being exposed every minute of every day.  The only question is whether the NFL owners care.  Right now, they don't.  But the Polian videos - where he flatly contradicts himself after (quite obviously) being reached by someone connected with the league - tells me that the situation is fluid.
 

singaporesoxfan

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changer591 said:
It's clearly apparently that Goodell isn't aware of what happens in domestic violence cases, and honestly, neither am I...I've learned quite a bit in the past few days about what consequences there are besides the obvious physical ones for domestic abuse.  I've learned that it's not as simple as "Why didn't she just leave him/report him/etc."  And yes, I do expect someone like the commissioner of the NFL to understand the different aspects of DV.  I hope no one thought I was defending Goodell, but rather just presenting a situation where someone who isn't learned about a subject can fall into a hole (which he obviously has), and a sequence of unfortunate events can cause that hole to just get deeper.  However, I do also feel like he is not a liar just because I would hope to believe he's gotten to his position because he had the basic intelligence to know that lying about something like not seeing a video in this day and age and getting away with it is ridiculous.
 
I understand the possibility that Goodell didn't understand domestic violence. I think this is extremely problematic because this isn't a new issue: Goodell has himself spoken about the rising number of DV arrests as a problem ("We are going to do some things to combat this problem because some of the numbers on DUIs and domestic violence are going up and that disturbs me"), and the scarring example of Jovan Belcher and Kasandra Perkins should have taught him that he needs to understand the problem better.
 
But even if he was ignorant of the problem before, I would have hoped the tone that came out of Goodell and the NFL in the wake of the video coming out was "I conducted the initial investigation wrongly, and clearly I didn't understand DV. I want to learn to do better, and here are steps I am taking". Instead we get a blame-the-victim mentality that suggests he doesn't get it, and doesn't seem interested in getting it.