RIP Bill Buckner

chrisfont9

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That's not really true about Schiraldi either. In the thread about Ron Darling's book, Darling ripped Schiraldi and basically called him gutless but if you look into the numbers a bit more (like some fellow SoSHers did), you'll see that Schiraldi was worked like a dog that game and was probably dead tired.

I hate to say it, because he had his share of problems, but McNamara was the guy to blame. He's the one that should have took Buckner out for Stapleton. He's the one that kept Schiraldi in after 55 pitches. He's the one that should have had Baylor bat for Buckner in the eighth inning. I mean, as a manager his job is to put his players in positions to succeed. He blew it every which way he could.
OK, well if I could speak more precisely, I don't blame Schiraldi for not doing more. We are in general agreement, though I hadn't looked up the stats. They had nothing close to the type of bullpen you'd see nowadays -- just Schiraldi, Stanley, Crawford and Sambito -- and only got to three wins thanks to Hurst being incredible and Gooden melting down in game 2. Schiraldi did probably get overused in that game; by comparison, the Mets got 3+ mediocre innings from Aguilera and McDowell, but also used Sid Fernandez for a key relief appearance in game 7. McNamara didn't have much to work with, but given that he leaned on them too hard and never once got creative with putting a starter in for help (unless you count Nipper getting lit up at the end).
 

joe dokes

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OK, well if I could speak more precisely, I don't blame Schiraldi for not doing more. We are in general agreement, though I hadn't looked up the stats. They had nothing close to the type of bullpen you'd see nowadays -- just Schiraldi, Stanley, Crawford and Sambito -- and only got to three wins thanks to Hurst being incredible and Gooden melting down in game 2. Schiraldi did probably get overused in that game; by comparison, the Mets got 3+ mediocre innings from Aguilera and McDowell, but also used Sid Fernandez for a key relief appearance in game 7. McNamara didn't have much to work with, but given that he leaned on them too hard and never once got creative with putting a starter in for help (unless you count Nipper getting lit up at the end).
In hindsight, it's no surprise that Davey Johnson would outmanage McNamara by being creative. Johnson was Weaver after Weaver and Maddon before Maddon.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Bill James once said that if McNamara wrote an autobiography, it would be called "Just Let Them Play And See What Happens." He was impossibly passive as a manager and made very few moves at all during a game.
In college, I took a blow-off single credit class called "Baseball Theory" that was taught by the manager of the university baseball team. The one big writing assignment (one page essay worth probably 80% of the grade) was to pick a game and play what-if with the managerial decisions (because obviously you can't really play the game debating whether a player should have hit a HR instead of into a DP in the bottom of the ninth). I chose Game 6 and ripped McNamara for his lack of activity costing the Red Sox the series. I think I ended up writing three pages worth of arguments. Got an A and we ended up dissecting the game in class. Everyone started that class thinking Buckner was the goat. No one ended the class with that opinion.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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If Tony Armas never got hurt, McNamara would never have thought to put Dave Henderson in centerfield, which means Hendu never takes Donnie Moore deep, the Angels win the Series and the Red Sox don't go to World Series.

Consequently, Tony Armas' injury had adverse effects on Moore, Buckner and Gene Mauch.
 
Jul 5, 2018
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If Tony Armas never got hurt, McNamara would never have thought to put Dave Henderson in centerfield, which means Hendu never takes Donnie Moore deep, the Angels win the Series and the Red Sox don't go to World Series.

Consequently, Tony Armas' injury had adverse effects on Moore, Buckner and Gene Mauch.
Or maybe Armas hits 2 dingers and they win by 5 runs.
 
Jul 5, 2018
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Buckner never struck out 40+ times in a single season.
He only walked 40+ times in a season once, never hit more than 16 homers and had a career OPS of .729. He was one of those guys who hit off their front foot and just put the ball in play. No criticism from me, but the idea that the error kept him out of the HOF is not valid.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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You realize he pitched the 8th also right?
And the ninth. He was at 32 pitches entering the 10th. So by the time he gave up the first hit to Carter, he was at 43 pitches. By the time he left the game, he was at 48. While it was definitely before the era of pitch counts and relief specialists, that's still a significant count for a guy who'd already been touched up in the 8th (gave up the lead). It wasn't quite Pedro in 2003 obvious, but Schiraldi was clearly on fumes and the pen was rested. No reason that Stanley couldn't have been trusted to get the last out with a runner on and a two run lead.
 

Pandarama

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And the ninth. He was at 32 pitches entering the 10th. So by the time he gave up the first hit to Carter, he was at 43 pitches. By the time he left the game, he was at 48. While it was definitely before the era of pitch counts and relief specialists, that's still a significant count for a guy who'd already been touched up in the 8th (gave up the lead). It wasn't quite Pedro in 2003 obvious, but Schiraldi was clearly on fumes and the pen was rested. No reason that Stanley couldn't have been trusted to get the last out with a runner on and a two run lead.
No good reason, sure. In Mac’s mind, he was on the mound for the same reason Buckner was on the field: to be in the middle of the pig pile after the last out.

Mac was Gump before Gump, before there was even a Hollywood movie made named Gump. It is clear now, if only in hindsight.
 

LoweTek

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And the ninth. He was at 32 pitches entering the 10th. So by the time he gave up the first hit to Carter, he was at 43 pitches. By the time he left the game, he was at 48. While it was definitely before the era of pitch counts and relief specialists, that's still a significant count for a guy who'd already been touched up in the 8th (gave up the lead). It wasn't quite Pedro in 2003 obvious, but Schiraldi was clearly on fumes and the pen was rested. No reason that Stanley couldn't have been trusted to get the last out with a runner on and a two run lead.
McNamara actually called for Crawford to replace Shiraldi. McNamara had no love for Stanley and used him only when he had to. Crawford got hurt going to warm-up. I only then did Mac go with Stanley.
 

reggiecleveland

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He only walked 40+ times in a season once, never hit more than 16 homers and had a career OPS of .729. He was one of those guys who hit off their front foot and just put the ball in play. No criticism from me, but the idea that the error kept him out of the HOF is not valid.
There was a year he hit 18...
The criminal thing was he had an ops of .579 vs LH , yet was out there for 200abs. They couldn't trade for a RH hitter that could play 1b, any RH hitter?
 

Bernie Carbohydrate

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There was a year he hit 18...
The criminal thing was he had an ops of .579 vs LH , yet was out there for 200abs. They couldn't trade for a RH hitter that could play 1b, any RH hitter?
I guess the RH batter you seek was Dave Stapleton, he of career .707 OPS. The 80s Sox just never figured out what to do at 1B.

To be sure, Mac wasn’t a genius, but remember that ‘86 was a season when teams had 24-man rosters, so Buckner played his knees into powder during the season. It would have been nice to carry an extra corner infielder and maybe give Buckner a break.

1B options in Pawtucket that year included Todd Benzinger and a young slugger named Horn, first name Sam.
 
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Red(s)HawksFan

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I guess the RH batter you seek was Dave Stapleton, he of career .707 OPS. The 80s Sox just never figured out what to do at 1B.

To be sure, Mac wasn’t a genius, but remember that ‘86 was a season when teams had 24-man rosters, so Buckner played his knees into powder during the season. It would have been nice to carry an extra corner infielder and maybe give Buckner a break.

1B options in Pawtucket that year included Todd Benzinger and a young slugger named Horn, first name Sam.
24-man rosters but typically a 10-man pitching staff, so still plenty of roster space for a back-up 1B (or a second one). The bench that year for the most part was Stapleton, Romero, Lyons/Henderson, Sullivan and a rotating array of shuttle players like Kevin Romine, Mike Stenhouse and Mike Greenwell. Pat Dodson got some run at 1B as a September call-up, primarily as a late inning defensive replacement, and hit .417/.533/.833 in limited time. He eventually flamed out as a prospect (though not without respectable MLB numbers), but seemed like a reasonable option that was overlooked at the time.
 

lexrageorge

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Buckner was the answer to one of my favorite baseball trivia questions:

Which former Red Sox player had 200 hits in both leagues?

Even today, there's still only 5 players that have gotten 200 hits in both leagues: George Sisler (poor soul played for both St. Louis Browns and Boston Braves), Al Oliver (Texas and Montreal), Steve Sax (Dodgers and Yankees), Vlad Guerrero (Expos and Angels), and, of course Bill Buckner ('82 Cubs and '85 Red Sox).

He only walked 40+ times in a season once, never hit more than 16 homers and had a career OPS of .729. He was one of those guys who hit off their front foot and just put the ball in play. No criticism from me, but the idea that the error kept him out of the HOF is not valid.
For me, it's not so much the error hurt his HoF chances; as you correctly noted, his career was not Hall worthy. However, he did hold the record for best fielding percentage for a first baseman at the time. While I wouldn't call him the best fielding first baseman, he was better than average, and his fielding does get a bad rap due to that error.

There was a year he hit 18...
The criminal thing was he had an ops of .579 vs LH , yet was out there for 200abs. They couldn't trade for a RH hitter that could play 1b, any RH hitter?
The idea of platooning a veteran player, especially one that just came off a 0.299 season (0.773 OPS) the prior year did not occur to most teams back in those days. To be fair, his OPS the prior season against lefties was a respectable 0.716. The Sox big moves during that regular season were to trade for Spike Owen and Dave Henderson to shore up the SS and OF positions and to trade for Tom Seaver. IIRC, the SS situation was far more desperate (Ed Romero and Rey Quinones played most innings at the position). Not sure Owen was any better, but he had a good turn at the plate during the playoffs.

One notable offseason move that year, which was not given much notice, especially as it happened right between the Ojeda/Schiraldi and Easler/Baylor trades, was the player they drafted in the second round of the amateur draft:

Curt Schilling
 

Pandarama

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Aug 20, 2018
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The Sox big moves during that regular season were to trade for Spike Owen and Dave Henderson to shore up the SS and OF positions and to trade for Tom Seaver. IIRC, the SS situation was far more desperate (Ed Romero and Rey Quinones played most innings at the position). Not sure Owen was any better, but he had a good turn at the plate during the playoffs.
Owen, at least, was not turning up in newspaper stories like Quinones was:

https://www.nytimes.com/1986/07/20/sports/troubled-time-for-a-talented-pitcher.html

This followed an altercation Tuesday night with some members of the Boston police force. They had stopped his silver Mercedes after receiving a tip that he was involved in a drug transaction and following him to suburban Chelsea. This is where Boyd lives in a condominium with his wife, Karen, and a tenant, Rey Quinones, the Red Sox's rookie shortstop. According to Boston newspaper reports, the police had said that while they were doing undercover surveillance of drug dealers in Boston over the last few days, Boyd ''popped up six times'' in their midst.
My theory at the time was that the Red Sox wanted RQ out of town in the hope that it would help “settle” Oil Can Boyd down. (Boyd has since admitted to pitching under the influence of Cocaine.)