Red Sox - Yankee Trades

[Rovin Romine]

I made the following post in the Peavey thread, responding to the idea of the Sox trading Peavey to the Yanks.  The post mentioned the Mike Stanley trade as the most recent Sox-Yanks trade, which got me thinking about Stanley and his reception in both cities. He seemed to be a rare player who was appreciated by both fan bases and not vilified. 
 
I thought I'd start a new thread, because I'm curious about fan perception of Sox-Yanks trades and fan perception of players who played for both teams.  I only really have a grasp on late 80s reactions forward - in terms of how the papers, talk radio, and the internet dealt with trades and players "crossing the line" via free agency: 
 
Old Post:
While 2004 eased the sting, in terms of trades, there would be nothing more alienating to the fan base than to enable a Yanks WS.  It won't matter how innocent or minimal the trade seemed at the time.   As we see from certain posters on the board, the idea of the Yanks signing our FAs (or even possibly signing our future FAs induces mouth foam.  
 
Not that they match up as trading partners, but it's hard to imagine the same reaction for a potential Baltimore or Toronto trade, even if that team went on to the WS. 
 
BTW - Stanley didn't even really count - he came to prominence in TX, signed with NYY for 4 years before signing with Boston as a FA.  Boston traded him after two good seasons back to NY - crucially the Yanks finished second that year and didn't make the playoffs.  He then goes to TOR as a FA, then resigns with the Sox as a FA for two solid seasons before he's released.  So he had two tours with NY and the Sox, but I don't think he was ever regarded as a "Yankee at heart" or anything like that.  
 
Were there other players like Stanley who bridged the NYY/Sox rivalry?  Meaning that they a) relatively effective for both teams, yet b) weren't scorned by one side or another for the switch?  Here's the total list: http://www.baseball-...it=Find Players
 
Discounting the cup of coffee/end of their career/embedded Yankee/Sox injury guys: 
 
Tiant was a bit before my time, but he seems to be remembered fondly in both cities. 
Ricky Henderson was a bit player on the Sox but I always think of him as an Athletic. 
 
The clear "villains" who intensified the rivalry, would be Clemens, Boggs, and to some extent Damon.  
 
I don't know how Aceves fits into this - equally loved and hated for a bit by both sides?  Or what about former prospects like Pavano?
 

 

[ibrewbeer]

Mike Torres

 

[MICHAELG63]

Sparky Lyle

 

[bankshot1]

Elston Howard

 

[snowmanny]

You'd have to ask Yankee fans how they feel about the Stanley trade, because Tony Armas Jr.

The Lyle trade was torture and very likely cost the Red Sox at least one first place finish.

I would rather give Lester to the Orioles for free than trade him to the Yankees.

 

[mt8thsw9th]

Peavey?

 

[moondog80]

Mike Easler for Don Baylor in 1986, though both were in the journeyman stage of their careers and neither were really identified with the Sox/Yanks.

 

[dcmissle]

We got ass raped on Sparky Lyle. An abomination that killed any deal making for a generation at least.

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

I vividly remember every dreadful Tony Clark AB for the Sox, and one incredibly lucky bounce a ball of his took when he was a Yankee

 

[snowmanny]

I vividly remember every dreadful Tony Clark AB for the Sox, and one incredibly lucky bounce a ball of his took when he was a Yankee

And one terrifying/glorious AB as a Yankee.

 

[curly2]

Peavey?

 
Torres?

 

[Rovin Romine]

And one terrifying/glorious AB as a Yankee.

 
Yeah, it seemed completely unfair and yet absolutely possible (perhaps almost inevitable) that we'd go down to the wrath of the Thermos.  

 

[CaptainLaddie]

You guys are forgetting Mike Stanton.

 

[MICHAELG63]

We got ass raped on Sparky Lyle. An abomination that killed any deal making for a generation at least.

You didnt think getting Danny Cater back was a good haul LOL.    Couldn't agree with you more!!!

 

[Jerrygarciaparra]

David Cone

 

[Lose Remerswaal]

And one terrifying/glorious AB as a Yankee.

isn't that what I said?

 

[Homar]

Is it too soon call Ellsbury?  I'm not sure that he's vilified here for going MFY on us.  He was appreciated here, and admired, but not truly loved, and it's unlikely that he's going to be the missing piece for the next MFY world series winner.  

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

I would rather give Lester to the Orioles for free than trade him to the Yankees.

 
For me one of the beautiful fringe benefits of 2004 was that it put an end to this mindset. Some time around the moment Damon's grand slam landed in game 7, the Yankees lost their toxic stranglehold on my brain. Not quite to the point where they're "just another team"--there will always be something special and distinct about that rivalry--but I don't feel that grating, gnawing, envy-driven hatred anymore. I don't want the Yankees to get Lester because they're a divisional rival and he's a damn good pitcher. But I don't want the Orioles to get him either, for the same reason. Would it be worse if the Yankees got him? Maybe a little. But only a little.

 

[Crazy Puppy]

isn't that what I said?

 
Seemed like your post about Clark ("one incredibly lucky bounce of a ball") was talking about the Game 5 extra inning ground rule double. Snowmanny's post ("one terrifying/glorious AB as a Yankee") was in reference to Clark's game-ending strikeout in Game 6.

 

[OttoC]

Boston did not trade Clemens to the Yankees nor did they trace Boggs to them. Clemens left the Red Sox as a free agent after the 1996 season, signing with Toronto. who then traded him to New York for Homer Bush, Graeme Lloyd, and David Wells in February of 1999. Boggs was granted free agency in October, 1992, and signed with the Yankees two months later. The fact that so many Red Sox fans vilify two of the greatest players ever to wear their team's uniform because they later played for the Yankees doesn't say much for their intelligence.
 
Other than that, in the early 1920's, there were a lot of trades made between the two clubs and a number of players, especially pitchers, went on to have great careers as Yankees. If you want to vilify someone, vilify the Red Sox owner responsible back then.

 

[Rovin Romine]

Boston did not trade Clemens to the Yankees nor did they trace Boggs to them. Clemens left the Red Sox as a free agent after the 1996 season, signing with Toronto. who then traded him to New York for Homer Bush, Graeme Lloyd, and David Wells in February of 1999. Boggs was granted free agency in October, 1992, and signed with the Yankees two months later. The fact that so many Red Sox fans vilify two of the greatest players ever to wear their team's uniform because they later played for the Yankees doesn't say much for their intelligence.
 
Other than that, in the early 1920's, there were a lot of trades made between the two clubs and a number of players, especially pitchers, went on to have great careers as Yankees. If you want to vilify someone, vilify the Red Sox owner responsible back then.

 
The question is are there individual players who bridged the rivalry?   While that list can be made without regard to the mechanism whereby the control of the player transferred, I would think traded players are more likely to bridge rivalries.  The choice of who to play for was out of their control, after all.  Free Agents, especially those who entertain moderately competitive bids between the Sox and the Yanks for insane amounts of money, seem to validate one or the other city/club by their signing choice, which leads to resentment on behalf of the jilted party.  They don't even have to change sides to get that negative "jilted" perception.  
 
In some ways Clemens was the worst - there was a lot of reporting he pressured/manufactured the trade to NY.  So the "choosing NY over Boston" factor was there.  Then there was the whole PED thing, which at the time looked like Fat Roger was just finally committing himself to exercise/conditioning and/or ratcheting up his game (although too late to help the Sox).  Plus there was the public feud Clemens carried on with the Sox ownership and, to some extent, fandom.  If that's not spitting in your eye (in the baseball context), I'm not sure what is. 

 

[jscola85]

David Cone

 
This one always surprised me a little, given how long and how good he was over the years for the Yankees - I would've figured there would have been a bit more vitriol.  That said, I always have pretty positive memories of Cone.  For a guy who was almost 40 years old, he pitched alright for the Sox that one year, and his performance against his old Yankee teammates during Mussina's near-perfect game (thanks Jurassic Carl) is one of those games that just sticks in my mind, similar to the Clemens-Pedro duel that Trot Nixon won for the Sox.

 

[KillerBs]

I never understood the notion that Clemens somehow did us wrong late in his Sox career and by ultimately moving to the Yanks. He hurt his arm in 95 and pitched well in 96, even if not up to his prior other worldly levels. The idea that he wasn't sufficiently committed to conditioning etc in 95-96 strikes me as a highly dubious, ie requiring some evidence which I am not aware of. After averaging over 260 IPs in 7 seasons (!) between 86 and 92 he ran into some arm problems 93 to 95 and wasn't the same pitcher, albeit he was still good. His last 10 starts of 96, he went 6-2, 2.09 ERA, .566 OPS against, including the second 20K game, which should have been enough to confirm he wasn't done.   
 
The Sox did not make a competitive offer to him after 96, even though he was the best pitcher we had since Ruth. Duquette makes the ludicrous "twilight of his career" comment, which has to be one of the dumbest things any Sox GM has said in a generation. Clemens signs for 3/24.75m and an option with the Jays, despite reports that the Yanks were willing to match that. From what I read on line, the Sox offer topped out at  4/22 "with incentive and deferred money." Hendricks said if that had been offered that earlier, Clemens would have accepted. Roger also had been saying all along he wanted to retire with the Red Sox.
 
Two years later he is dealt to the Yanks, and we have reason to begrudge him for that why? Did we expect him to hold a grudge against the Yankees for life? to refuse the trade? Why? Because he used to pitch for the Sox, the team that let him go, instead of locking him up and making him a life time Sox legend, which he had a good reason to expect.    
 
I guess it all worked out in the end. Probably Pedro or Manny never happens if Clemens was re-signed, and eventually we started winning WS, and life turned out good for all concerned. But the vilification of Roger Clemens by Sox fans, as a traitor, etc. strikes me as absurd and embarrassing.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I never understood the notion that Clemens somehow did us wrong late in his Sox career and by ultimately moving to the Yanks. He hurt his arm in 95 and pitched well in 96, even if not up to his prior other worldly levels. The idea that he wasn't sufficiently committed to conditioning etc in 95-96 strikes me as a highly dubious, ie requiring some evidence which I am not aware of. After averaging over 260 IPs in 7 seasons (!) between 86 and 92 he ran into some arm problems 93 to 95 and wasn't the same pitcher, albeit he was still good. His last 10 starts of 96, he went 6-2, 2.09 ERA, .566 OPS against, including the second 20K game, which should have been enough to confirm he wasn't done.   
 
The Sox did not make a competitive offer to him after 96, even though he was the best pitcher we had since Ruth. Duquette makes the ludicrous "twilight of his career" comment, which has to be one of the dumbest things any Sox GM has said in a generation. Clemens signs for 3/24.75m and an option with the Jays, despite reports that the Yanks were willing to match that. From what I read on line, the Sox offer topped out at  4/22 "with incentive and deferred money." Hendricks said if that had been offered that earlier, Clemens would have accepted. Roger also had been saying all along he wanted to retire with the Red Sox.
 
Two years later he is dealt to the Yanks, and we have reason to begrudge him for that why? Did we expect him to hold a grudge against the Yankees for life? to refuse the trade? Why? Because he used to pitch for the Sox, the team that let him go, instead of locking him up and making him a life time Sox legend, which he had a good reason to expect.    
 
I guess it all worked out in the end. Probably Pedro or Manny never happens if Clemens was re-signed, and eventually we started winning WS, and life turned out good for all concerned. But the vilification of Roger Clemens by Sox fans, as a traitor, etc. strikes me as absurd and embarrassing.

 
Like with Damon when he signed in the Bronx, much of the vitriol was based not in his going to the highest bidder or the most hated rival, but it was what he said in an attempt to sound reluctant to leave Boston.  Damon famously stated he'd never sign with the Yankees.  Clemens famously said if he were to sign somewhere else, it would be to try to be closer to home (Houston).  Damon contradicted himself by going directly to the Yankees.  Clemens contradicted himself by signing in Toronto, which was really no closer to home than Boston.  He then compounded things by hamstringing the Jays into trading him to the Yankees, who are both the hated rivals and also no closer to home than Toronto was.
 
In the long run, it's a silly reason to "hate" an athlete, but since when are fans rational about these things?

 

[Cesar Crespo]

David Wells was liked in both places I believe.

 

[sfip]

I'd say John Olerud was liked in both places. Well, other than those who were mad about Petagine not getting more ABs. <emoticon>

 

[snowmanny]

David Wells was liked in both places I believe.

I'm not sure how liked he was in Boston. It was pretty clear he didn't want to be here.

 

[LoweTek]

Like with Damon when he signed in the Bronx, much of the vitriol was based not in his going to the highest bidder or the most hated rival, but it was what he said in an attempt to sound reluctant to leave Boston.  Damon famously stated he'd never sign with the Yankees.

RHF, I know you must have been around for previous discussion of this topic. Damon went to New York because the RS didn't really want him back and it was a $13 million dollar higher offer. I dare say there is no one on this board who would not have done the same, regardless of prior statements of never. $13 million is still a lot of money in baseball terms. He or anyone else would do it again today. They didn't want him. And he was reluctant to leave, until he came to terms with that fact and with NYY.

Does Babe Ruth count in this discussion? Traded for cash considerations and a Fenway mortgage?

 

[BosRedSox5]

I never understood the notion that Clemens somehow did us wrong late in his Sox career and by ultimately moving to the Yanks. He hurt his arm in 95 and pitched well in 96, even if not up to his prior other worldly levels. The idea that he wasn't sufficiently committed to conditioning etc in 95-96 strikes me as a highly dubious, ie requiring some evidence which I am not aware of. After averaging over 260 IPs in 7 seasons (!) between 86 and 92 he ran into some arm problems 93 to 95 and wasn't the same pitcher, albeit he was still good. His last 10 starts of 96, he went 6-2, 2.09 ERA, .566 OPS against, including the second 20K game, which should have been enough to confirm he wasn't done.   
 
The Sox did not make a competitive offer to him after 96, even though he was the best pitcher we had since Ruth. Duquette makes the ludicrous "twilight of his career" comment, which has to be one of the dumbest things any Sox GM has said in a generation. Clemens signs for 3/24.75m and an option with the Jays, despite reports that the Yanks were willing to match that. From what I read on line, the Sox offer topped out at  4/22 "with incentive and deferred money." Hendricks said if that had been offered that earlier, Clemens would have accepted. Roger also had been saying all along he wanted to retire with the Red Sox.
 
Two years later he is dealt to the Yanks, and we have reason to begrudge him for that why? Did we expect him to hold a grudge against the Yankees for life? to refuse the trade? Why? Because he used to pitch for the Sox, the team that let him go, instead of locking him up and making him a life time Sox legend, which he had a good reason to expect.    
 
I guess it all worked out in the end. Probably Pedro or Manny never happens if Clemens was re-signed, and eventually we started winning WS, and life turned out good for all concerned. But the vilification of Roger Clemens by Sox fans, as a traitor, etc. strikes me as absurd and embarrassing.

 
C'mon. Everything about this is wrong. 
 
1.) After he left Boston he started conditioning like mad. Looked remarkably different and was quoted as saying he'd never been more prepared to start a season. He was either working out like crazy or this is when he started juicing. Who knows. Anyway, that's all the evidence I need that he hadn't been committed to conditioning in Boston. The second he left he got ripped. 
 
2.) The Dan Duquette quote was really benign. He said he wanted to keep Clemens through the twilight of his career. not that he was in the twilight of his career. He was saying that he wanted Clemens to retire in Boston but Clemens misinterpreted the comment and used it as bulletin board material. 
 
3.) Clemens engineered the trade to New York, it didn't just happen. You think the Jays wanted to trade a guy who won two straight Cy Youngs for David Wells?? Clemens engineered the trade using some ambiguous clause in his contract.
 
Basically, Clemens never did right by Red Sox fans. He refused to acknowledge them at any point during his career or after. Read Bill Simmon's article on the subject. It's among the best pieces he's ever written. 
 
It all did end up working out (eventually) and it would have been absolutely crushing to see Clemens' trial if he had spent 20 years in Boston and was in the pantheon of Red Sox heroes. It's not embarrassing or absurd to treat Clemens as what he was and continues to be, a villain. 

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

RHF, I know you must have been around for previous discussion of this topic. Damon went to New York because the RS didn't really want him back and it was a $13 million dollar higher offer. I dare say there is no one on this board who would not have done the same, regardless of prior statements of never. $13 million is still a lot of money in baseball terms. He or anyone else would do it again today. They didn't want him. And he was reluctant to leave, until he came to terms with that fact and with NYY.

Does Babe Ruth count in this discussion? Traded for cash considerations and a Fenway mortgage?

 
Did I say I bought into the hatred of Damon.  I actually defended him at the time against the "traitor" shit.
 
My point was to show where the hatred that did exist came from, and how it was a similar case to Clemens in that both expressed a desire to stay and both expressed specific intentions were they to not re-sign here (Damon saying "never the Yankees" and Clemens saying "moving closer to home").
 
It was cliched athlete speak, but a lot of fans held them to it and were upset when they didn't follow through.  Like I said, it isn't necessarily rational, but the mindset existed and still exists.

 

[Rovin Romine]

 
Did I say I bought into the hatred of Damon.  I actually defended him at the time against the "traitor" shit.
 
My point was to show where the hatred that did exist came from, and how it was a similar case to Clemens in that both expressed a desire to stay and both expressed specific intentions were they to not re-sign here (Damon saying "never the Yankees" and Clemens saying "moving closer to home").
 
It was cliched athlete speak, but a lot of fans held them to it and were upset when they didn't follow through.  Like I said, it isn't necessarily rational, but the mindset existed and still exists.

 
When you get down to it, the only reason these guys get their millions is that baseball fans care enough to actually support a team.  And by support, I mean financially support, through buying tickets, merchandising, broadcasts, etc.  These guys are damn damn lucky to be able to do what they do for a living and to be paid so well for it.  From the fans point of view there's also an investment of time, in terms of understanding and appreciating the game (for which they root through the local team they support.)  There's also an emotional investment in the club and in particular players.  
 
All this to say I don't think it's irrational to boo a guy and give him some shit in these kinds of situations.  If people didn't have an emotional connection to the team in the first place, these guys wouldn't have the jobs/lives they do. 

 

[sfip]

 
 
 
2.) The Dan Duquette quote was really benign. He said he wanted to keep Clemens through the twilight of his career. not that he was in the twilight of his career. He was saying that he wanted Clemens to retire in Boston but Clemens misinterpreted the comment and used it as bulletin board material. 

 
In case KillerBs needs reference material...

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

 
In case KillerBs needs reference material...

 
The standard interpretation of the quote is fundamentally sound. Here's what Duquette said:
 
"The Red Sox and our fans were fortunate to see Roger Clemens play in his prime and we had hoped to keep him in Boston during the twilight of his career."
 
Note that Clemens' "prime" is framed in the past tense. And while it's true that this quote does not literally say that Clemens is already in the twilight of his career, or even that said twilight is imminent, it pretty clearly implies that any new long-term contract will be, essentially, a contract for the twilight. All of which was actually pretty reasonable. Clemens' twilight just turned out to be an unusually long and bright one.

 

[HriniakPosterChild]

Clemens' twilight just turned out to be an unusually long and bright one.

 
Better Things for Better Living...Through Chemistry.

 

[Niastri]

Hgh and related hormone treatments would likely extend the happy/healthy lifetime of everybody who were to use them wisely.  All of us experience varying degree of "Better Living through Chemistry" every day.
 
Clemens using them to enhance his baseball career's "twilight" doesn't make them evil.  Although, I would agree that cheaters suck, many many players cheated, and it is only the most obvious ones who are vilified.

 

[Laschelle Tarver]

Small point of contention, but I don't believe most of Clemens' injury issues from '93-'95 were arm related, but rather leg related (frequent groin injuries for one).  I think this is what led to many people feeling he was out of shape for that timeframe (it was not hindsight, it was mentioned frequently at the time).

 

[OttoC]

...
In some ways Clemens was the worst - there was a lot of reporting he pressured/manufactured the trade to NY.  So the "choosing NY over Boston" factor was there...

 
The trade of Clemens from Toronto to the Yankees happened more then two years after his last appearance in a Red Sox uniform. Whether he "pressured" the trade, or not, has nothing to do with the Red Sox.

 

[Rovin Romine]

 
The trade of Clemens from Toronto to the Yankees happened more then two years after his last appearance in a Red Sox uniform. Whether he "pressured" the trade, or not, has nothing to do with the Red Sox.

 
No argument from me on that point.