seantoo said:Puffy, should JBJ go down with an injury Victorino slides over to center as you noted. Who then moves to RF. I know Nava filled in there last season but surely that is not plan B this year, nor was it last season.
Sprowl said:This deal is not exactly selling high on Morales, but sooner or later Fenway would have been the death of him: a flyball pitcher with a strong platoon split and a vulnerability to RHB pull power. With Breslow, Miller and Britton lined up as lefty relievers, Morales was supernumerary; with six experienced major-league starters and a logjam in Pawtucket, Morales wasn't going to get many spot starts either.
Plympton91 said:How is Herrera different from Holt? Does Holt have options so that this builds a liittle bit of depth into the middle infield that is lacking it?
They don't have anyone to play CF in Pawtucket next year right now. I assume a minor league free agent is coming in to do that. That guy, along with Hassan and Brentz, and all the assets they can could use to bring in a starting-quality CF or RF in-season if Victorino or JBJ is out for the year or something, seems like enough cover.Puffy said:
I don't know. I would assume Nava plays RF if JBJ is nursing an injury. I was just observing that under the roster may be set as is, if they go with their usual 4-man bench (eg, Ross, Carp, Herrera, Gomes).
My point is that there isn't really room on the roster for an additional outfielder without changing their roster configuration or trading someone like Gomes, Carp, or Nava. I could see them using Nava as Plan B for RF. All they need is some OF depth in AAA in that case (Brentz, Hassan?).
In fact, I would expect the next move to be something along those lines, AAA outfield depth. I wonder if they will be able to keep Castellanos.
The Best Catch in 100 Years said:They don't have anyone to play CF in Pawtucket next year right now. I assume a minor league free agent is coming in to do that. That guy, along with Hassan and Brentz, and all the assets they can could use to bring in a starting-quality CF or RF in-season if Victorino or JBJ is out for the year or something, seems like enough cover.Po
Rudy Pemberton said:That doesn't make sense. They have Bradley at CF for the near future. Giving Ellsbury a blank check because there's little depth in the system is silly given that the starter is 23 years old.
Rudy Pemberton said:So, the Sox should have given Ellsbury 140M in case Bradley and Victorino faltered? What if Jacoby got hurt?.
Morales was traded for a utility infielder, and so somebody said that all they needed now was a backup CF, and then someone pointed out that in order to have a backup CF you have to trade Carp, Nava, or Gomes, and I pointed out that's why Ellsbury in the majors and Bradley at Pawtucket would allieviate the need for a backup CF (or a backup rightfielder, which the Red Sox also don't obviously have either).lexrageorge said:So, what does Morales have to do with Ellsbury?
Well, It's not the end of the world, but he was relatively close to being an option in the pen. A righty with a nice fastball with good sink.The Mort Report said:I don't understand that anyone is even remotely concerned with he inclusion of Martin to improve an area of need. We aren't talking about a 19 year old lottery ticket, or a starter with #3 upside. He's a reliever!!!! He was merely average when pitching for Pawtucket, striking out less than a batter per nine with an average WHIP. He is the easiest thing to replace on the Pawtucket roster
Plympton91 said:Morales was traded for a utility infielder, and so somebody said that all they needed now was a backup CF, and then someone pointed out that in order to have a backup CF you have to trade Carp, Nava, or Gomes, and I pointed out that's why Ellsbury in the majors and Bradley at Pawtucket would allieviate the need for a backup CF (or a backup rightfielder, which the Red Sox also don't obviously have either).
bombdiggz said:Well, It's not the end of the world, but he was relatively close to being an option in the pen. A righty with a nice fastball with good sink.
It does seem like you are being a bit disingenuous though by describing him as someone who struck out less than a batter per nine with an average WHIP. Yes, his WHIP was 1.20 and his k/9 8.29 in Pawtucket, but in total last year, his WHIP was just over 1 and his k/9 well over 9.
Stanley Steamer said:I think I like the move. The thread, not so much.
Morales had to go, so it looks like they got a useful piece for him, though they probably had to throw Martin in to convince Colorado they really wanted him back.
I'm looking forward to the day when my posts are attacked based on reputation. I'll try to be more inflammatory.
The Mort Report said:
True, but like almost any player, unless they are dominate talents, they're numbers will most likely take a hit as they move up levels and take on better competition. I know there is the argument that generally a teams best "talent" is in AA, but it is more or less raw where AAA has more "established" players.
RP is the hardest to value, because one bad outing can greatly skew a pitcher's ERA, which seems to be how many relievers are valued. If he was truly a special pen arm, he should have put up video game numbers in AAA. Hell I bet you could look at Pawtucket's pitching stats each year for the last 15 years and find a guy that had a dominate relief season only to be never heard from again
lexrageorge said:So, what does Morales have to do with Ellsbury?
Rudy Pemberton said:That doesn't make sense. They have Bradley at CF for the near future. Giving Ellsbury a blank check because there's little depth in the system is silly given that the starter is 23 years old.
Boras would definitely provide #s showing the Sox how much Drew improves their chances of winning, and their is no way of doing that without projecting Xander at SS and WMB at 3rd.Hee Sox Choi said:This may be a rhetorical question but I wonder if an agent like Boras would present to the Red Sox a statistical analysis of why Will Middlebrooks is not a good player in order to sell them on bringing back Drew. Would that be considered bad business (assuming Boras doesn't represent Middlebrooks obviously)? Would that be considered a total scumbag move on Boras' part? I wonder if agents do stuff like that. Of course, if the agent of the player being backstabbed found out, they would be pretty pissed off and it might ruin Boras' reputation. Or is everything fair game when agents are trying to get their client top dollar? Boras could hand over the RED BINDER of why Middlebrooks isn't going to make it and then ask for it back at the end of the meeting (leaving no evidence) and then deny it if it ever came out.
Just wondering if anyone has any insight on this. IMO it would be pretty dirty but I don't know much about the agency underworld.
Yeah, that was the point. Exactly.dbn said:Drew.
But who is the starting CF in Portland! It's almost like you care less about the Sea Dogs make the playoffs in '14 than the Red Sox having a UI.
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benhogan said:Boras would definitely provide #s showing the Sox how much Drew improves their chances of winning, and their is no way of doing that without projecting Xander at SS and WMB at 3rd.
No chance. My English isn't that good.Reverend said:
Are you by any chance a lawyer?
Is deep depth the same as strong strength?Plympton91 said:
Then Bradley steps in. It's called deep depth. Something I heard some team somewhere decided was a good idea in 2013.
Sprowl said:
I doubt that those numbers would turn out Drew's way. Drew's numbers with the Red Sox, fine though they were, would be blown out of the water by Iggy's small but beautiful retrospective sample, regardless of what other prospects' projections might look like.
Probably Henry Ramos. He turned a bit of a corner in 2012 at Greenville, then built on that in winter league play and then went to Salem and his best pro season to date over 129 games.Plympton91 said:
Hell, who's the starting CF in Portland next year? This is not an area of depth in the organization. And, that's one of the reasons I wanted them to sign Ellsbury at pretty much any cost.
I'd think, and I'm only guessing here, that Boras' would have 2014 projections for WMB at 3rd + X at SS + Herrera as a rarely used UIF VS. X at 3rd + Drew at SS + WMB as an often used UIF. Not sure how Iggy's outstanding 2013 campaign figures into 2014 projections for the Sox, or how Boras' would put that into his binder for projected results for 2014.Sprowl said:
I doubt that those numbers would turn out Drew's way. Drew's numbers with the Red Sox, fine though they were, would be blown out of the water by Iggy's small but beautiful retrospective sample, regardless of what other prospects' projections might look like.
Back on topic, the Red Sox got a good year and a mediocre year out of Morales' cheap years. I'm just glad he didn't end up on the Yankees.
I'm not worried about what almost past-it veteran CF the team might stash at Pawtucket in case Bradley or Victorino gets injured. There are always Marlon Byrds flying around.
So I ask again " What does CF depth have to do with the Morales trade? One has nothing to do with the other.Plympton91 said:Morales was traded for a utility infielder, and so somebody said that all they needed now was a backup CF, and then someone pointed out that in order to have a backup CF you have to trade Carp, Nava, or Gomes, and I pointed out that's why Ellsbury in the majors and Bradley at Pawtucket would allieviate the need for a backup CF (or a backup rightfielder, which the Red Sox also don't obviously have either).
ShaneTrot said:I don't really like this trade. I guess I am misjudging the marketplace. Morales walks a lot of guys but he has swing and miss stuff and he gets traded for a Punto? In his time with Boston he pitched 134 innings while giving up only 118 hits, 56 BB with 128 K. He had outings in which he was flat out filthy. He is a little homer and injury prone. I know the Sox have a ton of pitching but I feel like he was given away.
He may have swing and miss stuff but he wasn't able to convert it into a high K rate last year. Walk rate over 5 + K rate under 8 = not much value. The Rockies are gambling that 2013 was just a down year and not a downward trend. It is a little puzzling that we had to include a throw-in, but I guess we were paying a premium for the extra couple of million in luxury tax room the exchange should buy us.ShaneTrot said:Morales walks a lot of guys but he has swing and miss stuff and he gets traded for a Punto?
Andrew said:I'm curious to see how many threads Plympy can take over with ranting about Ellsbury. He's up to 3 or 4 threads completely derailed at this point.
Savin Hillbilly said:He may have swing and miss stuff but he wasn't able to convert it into a high K rate last year. Walk rate over 5 + K rate under 8 = not much value. The Rockies are gambling that 2013 was just a down year and not a downward trend. It is a little puzzling that we had to include a throw-in, but I guess we were paying a premium for the extra couple of million in luxury tax room the exchange should buy us.
alwyn96 said:
I smell a challenge!
Ok, these first ones are tricky because these guys might actually live to put up another decent season
2012 - Will Inman - 2.23 ERA (maybe Justin Germano, but he was mostly a starter)
2011 - Tommy Hottovy - 2.75
2010 - Robert Manual - 1.68 (maybe he got hurt? The following year he was in the Indy leagues)
2009 - Rocky Cherry - 2.57 (ok, he had a crazy high WHIP, but Rocky Cherry! Awesome! Marcus McBeth was also inexplicably good and then never again)
2008 - Hunter Jones - 3.02
2007 - Travis Hughes - 1.97 (Huh, he went to Japan the following year was never really good again)
2006 - Jermaine Van Buren - 2.98
2005 - Marc Deschens - 2.94 (granted in only 33 innings)
2004 - Brandon Puffer - 3.26 (Man, rough year for the Pawtucket bullpen. No wonder they needed to trade for Leskanic. You could say Scott Cassidy at 3.46 instead, although he pitched (not very well) in MLB a little later)
2003 - Matt White - 1.97 (The Pride of Pittsfield!)
2002 - Todd "The Number" Erdos - 3.22
Ok, that was a fun half hour. You said 15 years, but my eyes are starting to glaze over.
Pumpsie said:I like it. Last year, Morales was "scary bad." Totally undependable. Definitely the weak link in the 2014 pen. Holt just isn't a good enough fielder to be a utility guy. Heck, he just isn't a good enough player. This move pretty much sets the roster. There's zero pressure to trade for Drew now. But if Ben does, it'll be because he's either come up with a really good trade for WMB or another really good reason, not because he felt the roster was deficient or that he HAD to do something. I still think that Drew is going to have a couple of really good years ahead of him, too, especially since he got his eyes checked.
Yup. My bad.richgedman'sghost said:I think he meant "re-sign" Drew. Simple mistake,