Red Sox trade Franklin Morales & Chris Martin for Jonathan Herrera

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
10,722
Maine
Ian Browne is reporting that Franklin Morales is going to the Rockies for utility infielder Jonathan Herrera.
 
Not that Herrera is any kind of uber-utility guy, but this acquisition seems to indicate the chances of Stephen Drew returning are less and less, or at least not at the forefront of Ben Cherington's priorities.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
12,863
Red(s)HawksFan said:
Ian Browne is reporting that Franklin Morales is going to the Rockies for utility infielder Jonathan Herrera.
 
Not that Herrera is any kind of uber-utility guy, but this acquisition seems to indicate the chances of Stephen Drew returning are less and less, or at least not at the forefront of Ben Cherington's priorities.
 
 
Or that if Drew comes back, its not to be a utility IF, because he's never played anything other than SS.
 

rembrat

Well-Known Member
Bronze Supporter
SoSH Member
May 26, 2006
36,058
Cherington to Farrell: "Please stop using Morales in high-lev situations."
 

TomRicardo

rusty cohlebone
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Feb 6, 2006
19,612
Row 14
Hooray I missed Alex Cora.  I thought Franklin Morales was worth a little bit more than a replacement value UIF.  I was wrong.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
10,802
And they feel really strong about Miller's recovery. Farrell has mentioned him multiple times when talking about the pen.
 

glennhoffmania

but still failing
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 25, 2005
8,396,814
NY
I like it.  If Herrera can play solid defense and put up an OBP in the .320s as projected, it seems that they just filled the last remaining hole.  And while it isn't much, they do save a little money and cap room.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
10,802
glennhoffmania said:
I like it.  If Herrera can play solid defense and put up an OBP in the .320s as projected, it seems that they just filled the last remaining hole.  And while it isn't much, they do save a little money and cap room.
He seems to be significantly better hitting from the left side, which complements Pedroia, WMB, and Xander well. He's above average at 3rd and 2nd, slightly below average at 2nd.

I mean, utility infielders are utility infielders for a reason. He seems like an above average one.
 

Sox and Rocks

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 16, 2013
5,671
Northern Colorado
As the board's resident Rockies fan, I have seen a lot of Herrera.  He is a good defensive player who can play all 3 infield positions.  Decent speed.  His bat is lacking, though.  I'm not sure what his career numbers are (they can obviously be looked up rather easily), but he did hit more this past year than at any other time in the past.  Has no power whatsoever, but that's to be expected for a utility infielder
 
He is Nick Punto, with a sligthly better glove and a slightly worse bat. 
 
I would think Morales has more value than this, but the Sox bullpen is rather full and Ferrell seemed to use him more than he should have.  Could be addition by subtraction. 
 

Al Zarilla

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 8, 2005
49,546
San Andreas Fault
I thought the Rockies figured Morales would do better back in the NL, but he actually did better in the AL. 
 
Herrera, 181, 114, 43 major league games at 2B, SS and 3B, respectively. Good fit.
 

beezer

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 9, 2009
552
I'm actually surprised they had to throw Martin into this deal, I thought Morales for Herrera and someone like Martin coming from the Rockies would have been more reasonable.  I guess the leverage was lost knowing that Morales was out of options
 

ivanvamp

captain obvious
Jul 18, 2005
6,104
CaskNFappin said:
Hope this means Drew is gone. I'm eager to see what our SP surplus can net.
 
So you're saying that you hope this means Drew is gone, and you're eager to see what our SP surplus can net?  
 
;-)
 

nvalvo

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Jul 16, 2005
16,525
Rogers Park
I've always found Morales' potential tantalizing for the obvious reason that he throws hard with movement from the left side, but I recognize that the upside of unreliable pitchers without options remaining doesn't have a ton of value. If he was going to put it all together in Boston, it really needed to happen by 2013. 
 
So while I regret that our future with Franklin Morales, Mid-Rotation SP Option didn't come to pass, I like the move. Herrera looks pretty great for the UI role, where versatility is at a premium. All he needs is an average OBP and to not be an embarrassment with the glove at 3b, SS, and 2b. Looks like he can do all of that. I won't mind giving this dude 300 PA. 
 

seantoo

toots his own horn award winner
Jul 16, 2005
1,308
Southern NH, from Watertown, MA
glennhoffmania said:
I like it.  If Herrera can play solid defense and put up an OBP in the .320s as projected, it seems that they just filled the last remaining hole.  And while it isn't much, they do save a little money and cap room.
I think that is the second to last opening, the don't have anyone who can back up CF/RF should one of JBJ or Victorino goes down for any signifigant amount of time.
 

seantoo

toots his own horn award winner
Jul 16, 2005
1,308
Southern NH, from Watertown, MA
CaskNFappin said:
Hope this means Drew is gone. I'm eager to see what our SP surplus can net.
I'm not sure that can be assumed. Often you move (secure) the pawn (back-up roles) before moving more important pieces. What it does do is gain leverage in dealing with Drew, should he walk were fine and should the sign him, they already have there 3B, Xander with their new found utility player in place. If this happens it's almost certain then that Middlebrooks would be traded.
Dempster may start the season in the longman/swing role now with Morales gone.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,156
Not here
What the hell is with this obsession with Drew? There's like a half a percent chance he signs with the Sox because we'd have to trade one of Middlebrooks or Bogaerts first and we don't want to trade Bogaerts for almost anything, and Middlebrooks alone isn't enough to bring back enough to make a trade worth making.
 
I mean, the team is pretty well set as it is. Any trade to improve it is going to have to be one for a significant player else why disrupt what we have in place?
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
10,802
Rasputin said:
What the hell is with this obsession with Drew? There's like a half a percent chance he signs with the Sox because we'd have to trade one of Middlebrooks or Bogaerts first and we don't want to trade Bogaerts for almost anything, and Middlebrooks alone isn't enough to bring back enough to make a trade worth making.
 
I mean, the team is pretty well set as it is. Any trade to improve it is going to have to be one for a significant player else why disrupt what we have in place?
For me it isn't an obsession. And I can see all the reasons to let him go. But really you answered your own question. Why would Middlebrooks alone not bring back enough in a trade worth making?
 
Because there is a very real possibility he isn't good. So on one hand your saying the team is set, and on the other hand your saying their starting third baseman has very little value.
 
I think this is a better team next year with Drew on the roster, but like I said. I can see the reasons for letting him walk.
 

bosockboy

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
10,525
St. Louis, MO
Rasputin said:
What the hell is with this obsession with Drew? There's like a half a percent chance he signs with the Sox because we'd have to trade one of Middlebrooks or Bogaerts first and we don't want to trade Bogaerts for almost anything, and Middlebrooks alone isn't enough to bring back enough to make a trade worth making.
 
I mean, the team is pretty well set as it is. Any trade to improve it is going to have to be one for a significant player else why disrupt what we have in place?
He buys you a year to Cecchini and he's significantly better than WMB?  WMB can be in Pawtucket, why does he have to be traded?
 

YTF

Well-Known Member
Silver Supporter
SoSH Member
Red(s)HawksFan said:
Ian Browne is reporting that Franklin Morales is going to the Rockies for utility infielder Jonathan Herrera.
 
Not that Herrera is any kind of uber-utility guy, but this acquisition seems to indicate the chances of Stephen Drew returning are less and less, or at least not at the forefront of Ben Cherington's priorities.
 
 
joe dokes said:
 
 
Or that if Drew comes back, its not to be a utility IF, because he's never played anything other than SS.
 
Or perhaps in part it can be used to present to Boras that the Sox don't NEED Drew and where his options are seemingly dwindling perhaps so are his chances for a multi year contract at the money he's hoping to get. Maybe he comes back on a one year. Not advocating either way, just thinking that this could be part of "the game" played between teams and agents. It's all about leverage, right?
 

Plympton91

bubble burster
SoSH Member
Oct 19, 2008
11,808
How is Herrera different from Holt?  Does Holt have options so that this builds a liittle bit of depth into the middle infield that is lacking it?
 

Puffy

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 14, 2006
1,251
Town
seantoo said:
I think that is the second to last opening, the don't have anyone who can back up CF/RF should one of JBJ or Victorino goes down for any signifigant amount of time.
 
Assuming Bradley is the starter, the 4-man bench would be Ross, Carp, Herrera, and Gomes/Nava, with Victorino backing up CF.
 
Adding another CF backup to the bench means either a 5-man bench or getting rid of Carp, Gomes, or Nava.
 

SouthernBoSox

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2005
10,802
Plympton91 said:
How is Herrera different from Holt?  Does Holt have options so that this builds a liittle bit of depth into the middle infield that is lacking it?
Well, the sample size is small, but Brock Holt appears to be really bad at defense.
 

bohous

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
2,732
Framingham
I'm in the "this means the FO has moved on from Drew" camp. Its just better roster construction. I like this for no other reason than it stabilizes the left side of the infield. Xander and WMB are your SS and 3B respectively heading into 2014. Of course this assumes you don't sign Drew, trade/demote WMB and move X to 3rd. 
 

Hee Sox Choi

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 27, 2006
5,869
This may be a rhetorical question but I wonder if an agent like Boras would present to the Red Sox a statistical analysis of why Will Middlebrooks is not a good player in order to sell them on bringing back Drew.  Would that be considered bad business (assuming Boras doesn't represent Middlebrooks obviously)?  Would that be considered a total scumbag move on Boras' part?  I wonder if agents do stuff like that.  Of course, if the agent of the player being backstabbed found out, they would be pretty pissed off and it might ruin Boras' reputation.  Or is everything fair game when agents are trying to get their client top dollar?  Boras could hand over the RED BINDER of why Middlebrooks isn't going to make it and then ask for it back at the end of the meeting (leaving no evidence) and then deny it if it ever came out.  
 
Just wondering if anyone has any insight on this.  IMO it would be pretty dirty but I don't know much about the agency underworld.
 

bohous

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 21, 2005
2,732
Framingham
Hee Sox Choi said:
This may be a rhetorical question but I wonder if an agent like Boras would present to the Red Sox a statistical analysis of why Will Middlebrooks is not a good player in order to sell them on bringing back Drew.  Would that be considered bad business (assuming Boras doesn't represent Middlebrooks obviously)?  Would that be considered a total scumbag move on Boras' part?  I wonder if agents do stuff like that.  Of course, if the agent of the player being backstabbed found out, they would be pretty pissed off and it might ruin Boras' reputation.  Or is everything fair game when agents are trying to get their client top dollar?  Boras could hand over the RED BINDER of why Middlebrooks isn't going to make it and then ask for it back at the end of the meeting (leaving no evidence) and then deny it if it ever came out.  
 
Just wondering if anyone has any insight on this.  IMO it would be pretty dirty but I don't know much about the agency underworld.
 
From a sales perspective, you don't directly dump on your competition. You sell why your product (player) is a better fit and how their business (team) would be better served with your product vs status quo.
 
edit to expand: it would be ok to point out flaws but you always want to keep negotiations positive. So yes, a binder full of WMB bashing would be a poor approach. A binder full of stats showing how Drew at SS and X at 3rd is better is the correct approach.
 

zenter

indian sweet
SoSH Member
Oct 11, 2005
5,641
Astoria, NY
TomRicardo said:
Hooray I missed Alex Cora.  I thought Franklin Morales was worth a little bit more than a replacement value UIF.  I was wrong.
 
Indeed, he's worth less than one if we needed to throw-in Chris Martin. (resisting urge to make dumb Coldplay joke)
 

LeoCarrillo

Do his bits at your peril.
SoSH Member
Oct 13, 2008
7,451
New York City
Hee Sox Choi said:
This may be a rhetorical question but I wonder if an agent like Boras would present to the Red Sox a statistical analysis of why Will Middlebrooks is not a good player in order to sell them on bringing back Drew.  Would that be considered bad business (assuming Boras doesn't represent Middlebrooks obviously)?  Would that be considered a total scumbag move on Boras' part?  I wonder if agents do stuff like that.  Of course, if the agent of the player being backstabbed found out, they would be pretty pissed off and it might ruin Boras' reputation.  Or is everything fair game when agents are trying to get their client top dollar?  Boras could hand over the RED BINDER of why Middlebrooks isn't going to make it and then ask for it back at the end of the meeting (leaving no evidence) and then deny it if it ever came out.  
 
Just wondering if anyone has any insight on this.  IMO it would be pretty dirty but I don't know much about the agency underworld.
 
I love questions like this. I'd bet for sure that it's part of his spoken pitch, naming names. But if there's anything printed out I'd bet it'd be along the lines of "estimated 3B substitute performance" with a wink-wink.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
12,863
Hee Sox Choi said:
This may be a rhetorical question but I wonder if an agent like Boras would present to the Red Sox a statistical analysis of why Will Middlebrooks is not a good player in order to sell them on bringing back Drew.  Would that be considered bad business (assuming Boras doesn't represent Middlebrooks obviously)?  Would that be considered a total scumbag move on Boras' part?  I wonder if agents do stuff like that.  Of course, if the agent of the player being backstabbed found out, they would be pretty pissed off and it might ruin Boras' reputation.  Or is everything fair game when agents are trying to get their client top dollar?  Boras could hand over the RED BINDER of why Middlebrooks isn't going to make it and then ask for it back at the end of the meeting (leaving no evidence) and then deny it if it ever came out.  
 
Just wondering if anyone has any insight on this.  IMO it would be pretty dirty but I don't know much about the agency underworld.
 
I could see an agent telling another team why Drew would make them better.
But is there anything he could say to the Red Sox that they dont know about one of their own players who has been with the organization since he was drafted?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
10,722
Maine
Hee Sox Choi said:
This may be a rhetorical question but I wonder if an agent like Boras would present to the Red Sox a statistical analysis of why Will Middlebrooks is not a good player in order to sell them on bringing back Drew.  Would that be considered bad business (assuming Boras doesn't represent Middlebrooks obviously)?  Would that be considered a total scumbag move on Boras' part?  I wonder if agents do stuff like that.  Of course, if the agent of the player being backstabbed found out, they would be pretty pissed off and it might ruin Boras' reputation.  Or is everything fair game when agents are trying to get their client top dollar?  Boras could hand over the RED BINDER of why Middlebrooks isn't going to make it and then ask for it back at the end of the meeting (leaving no evidence) and then deny it if it ever came out.  
 
Just wondering if anyone has any insight on this.  IMO it would be pretty dirty but I don't know much about the agency underworld.
 
Bohous hit it with it being bad form to bad-mouth the "competition" for your client, particularly when the "competition" is already on the roster for the team you're talking to.
 
But honestly, what could Scott Boras tell the Red Sox that they don't already know about Will Middlebrooks?  It's not like Boras has access to information or statistics that the Red Sox don't.  I just can't imagine BC walking out of a meeting with Boras and saying "wow, he really opened my eyes to the 'real' Will Middlebrooks."
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,156
Not here
SouthernBoSox said:
For me it isn't an obsession. And I can see all the reasons to let him go. But really you answered your own question. Why would Middlebrooks alone not bring back enough in a trade worth making?
 
Because there is a very real possibility he isn't good. So on one hand your saying the team is set, and on the other hand your saying their starting third baseman has very little value.
 
I think this is a better team next year with Drew on the roster, but like I said. I can see the reasons for letting him walk.
 
There's a big difference between someone's value as a trade chip and their value as a player.
 
Sure there's a very real possibility that he isn't good. There's also the very real possibility that he is good. The downside of him being bad is what, that we lose a few more games in a season after we won the World Series where we're very obviously dedicated to giving the young guys a shot? That strikes me as being not a very bad downside. The upside is getting a good cost controlled player for the next five years. For this to be a bad bet, the likelihood of him being bad would have to be a lot higher than the likelihood of him being good and I just don't think that's the case.
 
 
bosockboy said:
He buys you a year to Cecchini and he's significantly better than WMB?  WMB can be in Pawtucket, why does he have to be traded?
 
Cecchini is a guaranteed thing now?
 
And why the hell would you send Middlebrooks to Pawtucket? He's at the point in his career where he needs to either succeed or fail in the majors, and he can't do that in Pawtucket.
 

seantoo

toots his own horn award winner
Jul 16, 2005
1,308
Southern NH, from Watertown, MA
Rasputin said:
What the hell is with this obsession with Drew? There's like a half a percent chance he signs with the Sox because we'd have to trade one of Middlebrooks or Bogaerts first and we don't want to trade Bogaerts for almost anything, and Middlebrooks alone isn't enough to bring back enough to make a trade worth making.
 
I mean, the team is pretty well set as it is. Any trade to improve it is going to have to be one for a significant player else why disrupt what we have in place?
What obsession? this is my first post regarding Drew possibly coming back to the Sox. I merely pointed it out as a distinct possibility, and talks of trading Middlebrooks are out there wether or not you agree with that. And even if you are right about Middlebrooks (I disagree with you as 5 years of a controlled cost player with his power has value) not bringing back enough on his own to make it worth while they could package him with excess pitching both here in Boston and down on the farm to make him very interesting. They could always upgrade their pitching and/or their lack of OF depth both in Boston and/or down on the farm.
 

Sprowl

mikey lowell of the sandbox
Dope
Jun 27, 2006
31,531
Haiku
This deal is not exactly selling high on Morales, but sooner or later Fenway would have been the death of him: a flyball pitcher with a strong platoon split and a vulnerability to RHB pull power. With Breslow, Miller and Britton lined up as lefty relievers, Morales was supernumerary; with six experienced major-league starters and a logjam in Pawtucket, Morales wasn't going to get many spot starts either.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,156
Not here
seantoo said:
What obsession? this is my first post regarding Drew possibly coming back to the Sox. I merely pointed it out as a distinct possibility, and talks of trading Middlebrooks are out there wether or not you agree with that. And even if you are right about Middlebrooks (I disagree with you as 5 years of a controlled cost player with his power has value) not bringing back enough on his own to make it worth while they could package him with excess pitching both here in Boston and down on the farm to make him very interesting. They could always upgrade their pitching and/or their lack of OF depth both in Boston and/or down on the farm.
 
1) I wasn't referencing you in particular having an obsession, but SoSH as a whole. Have you seen the Drew thread? It's one of the most active threads at this point in the offseason, and for a guy who's got maybe a three percent chance of coming back.
 
2) Of course there are trade talks about Middlebrooks. I would think we would have learned by now that the Sox talk to just about everyone about just about everyone every offseason.
 
3) Thinking that five years of a controlled cost player with power having value is agreeing with me.
 
Upgrading the starting pitching would mean getting the True Ace (TM) that everyone says Lester isn't. Middlebrooks alone isn't going to bring that back. It would take Middlebrooks and at least two of the high level pitching prospects.
 
Upgrading the outfield depth means either backing off of the commitment to Bradley or getting someone who is significantly better than average which means the trade would be similar to the trade for an ace.
 

zenter

indian sweet
SoSH Member
Oct 11, 2005
5,641
Astoria, NY
Rasputin said:
 
1) I wasn't referencing you in particular having an obsession, but SoSH as a whole. Have you seen the Drew thread? It's one of the most active threads at this point in the offseason, and for a guy who's got maybe a three percent chance of coming back.
 
Are you talking about a conversation about a guy who...
 
1) Was easily one of the best in the league at his position last year?
2) Proved he's nothing to sneeze at defensively?
3) Is one of the few remaining high-quality FAs out there at an already-thin position?
4) Is the biggest will-he/won't-he return question after Salty?
 
It's one thing to be tired of an unsettled conversation, but to say that it's an obsession is a bridge too far.
 

smastroyin

simpering whimperer
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2002
20,684
5)  Is already the subject of at least two threads.
 
We don't need another Drew thread with the same exact discussion.  Thanks.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,156
Not here
zenter said:
 
Are you talking about a conversation about a guy who...
 
1) Was easily one of the best in the league at his position last year?
2) Proved he's nothing to sneeze at defensively?
3) Is one of the few remaining high-quality FAs out there at an already-thin position?
4) Is the biggest will-he/won't-he return question after Salty?
 
It's one thing to be tired of an unsettled conversation, but to say that it's an obsession is a bridge too far.
 
But #4 is wrong. There's not a big question. He is almost certainly gone. Going into the off season, he was less likely to come back than Ellsbury. He's going to get a multi-year offer to be someone's starting shortstop and it's not going to come from the Red Sox.
 

seantoo

toots his own horn award winner
Jul 16, 2005
1,308
Southern NH, from Watertown, MA
Puffy said:
 
Assuming Bradley is the starter, the 4-man bench would be Ross, Carp, Herrera, and Gomes/Nava, with Victorino backing up CF.
 
Adding another CF backup to the bench means either a 5-man bench or getting rid of Carp, Gomes, or Nava.
Puffy, should JBJ go down with an injury Victorino slides over to center as you noted. Who then moves to RF. I know Nava filled in there last season but surely that is not plan B this year, nor was it last season.