None of these teams sign 30+ pitchers to 6+ year deals all the time. It's a new thing that started with Cole/Rodon/Fried and Ohtani/Yamamoto, and we don't know what the back end looks like cause we aren't there yet.
Red Sox sign Patrick Sandoval
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
One last thing and for the record I do not have it in me to ever hate/even get really mad at this ownership group, they won me 4 World Series (4!!) and kept Fenway Park. They fucked up royally with Mookie and that goes in the ledger too but whaddya going to do sometimes fuckups happen.
I will say, to quote the Wire "The game ain't in them no more" and they should sell at some point.
Merry Christmas everyone and I hope they contend this year!
I will say, to quote the Wire "The game ain't in them no more" and they should sell at some point.
Merry Christmas everyone and I hope they contend this year!
This team acts with minimal urgency and it's annoying. Since the Sox were last in the playoffs in 2021, 20 other teams have been in the playoffs. If you have a pulse as a team you can make the playoffs these days. I like the Crochet deal but he's a huge injury risk, more so than most other pitchers. Sandoval is another renovation project. What are we Tampa? They can afford a mansion but they cannot resist the fixer-uppers.
And if Crochet chooses to wait until next winter so he can "roar out of the gate" and demonstrate he's in line for a $350 million bonanza, what should the Sox front office do?
Hold him hostage of course! And do not free gim until he agrees to sign on the teams terms.
(/s)
People are saying he has upside - but why? He walks a ton, gives up a ton of hits. His best year he had a 1.34 whip. How's that play with this team's defense?
This move seems to be the same move we see every year from the Red Sox: Garret Richards, Corey Kluber, James Paxton, Michael Wacha redux. This isn't cost efficient if it only works twice a decade.
This move seems to be the same move we see every year from the Red Sox: Garret Richards, Corey Kluber, James Paxton, Michael Wacha redux. This isn't cost efficient if it only works twice a decade.
I think what's wild to me is how they can count on a huge portion of their fanbase to play GM along with them and get excited about the fact that, while they're paying Patrick Sandoval ~$10m to not play in 2025, when they could absolutely use more help, they will get him for ~$8m in 2026, after long absence, and though his talent level is questionable, it'll be a "steal." And anyone exasperated with that recurrent practice as an organization, in a discussion of the deal in a vacuum, is "entitled."
I heard guys from the stands booing Keith Foulke in 2005 when he was struggling--those fans were entitled. An expression of "when are they going to field a team that is full of winning players that isn't a commercial for next season?" is not entitlement. Being a sports fan isn't directly analogous with other forms of entertainment, but its close. Yes, on some level as a customer I am entitled to want to enjoy what I'm watching, and it is irrational to get yourself comfortable with that enjoyment coming from how cheap we got Patrick Sandoval to pitch in 2026 and how your enjoyment will come, but later, and at what is starting to feel like constant expense of the right fuckin' now. Frustration with being sold that as some substantial source of enjoyment, perpetually, for years now, gets old. I get wanting to advocate for this as a baseball move, but calling the frustration "entitled" is fundamentally incorrect to me. Yeah, I feel entitled at this point. Put a good team on the field.
Offseason's not over, and I actually feel pretty confident a few more things will come together to improve the roster. But man, it is absolutely not exciting to me that Patrick Sandoval will be pitching cheap for us in 2026 after we paid him--but not someone on the field--to rehab in 2025, and certainly do not look forward to them shrugging that they couldn't really squeeze in some other, more expensive elite player because "well then what do we do with Sandoval?"
Not sure if this was posted up thread or not, but Sandoval has an excellent home run rate - 7th best in the majors since 2021
That walk rate will annoy me but he seems like a 2 to 3 win pitcher which is nifty for 9 mill. I suspect he will be an afterthought after this offseason is over.
That walk rate will annoy me but he seems like a 2 to 3 win pitcher which is nifty for 9 mill. I suspect he will be an afterthought after this offseason is over.
What should they do in that scenario, I don't know, a contract that big is a tough pill to swallow, especially for a pitcher. I think this ownership group wouldn't sign him at that point, although the pressure would be intense. If I were the owner and it was my money I'd like to pay him now.
Amen. I grew up in the era of "just win us one". They've given us four in 20 years. I am absolutely not happy with losing, but things cycle, man. And I really feel good about what we're going to see this coming season. They didn't spend the capital to go get Crochet to stop there. And I tell you what, they were absolutely decimated with injuries last year, at one point with entire projected starting infield out. Giolito never threw a pitch. I mean, I could go on and on. And they were fun to watch regardless, and certainly improved in both results and entertainment value. Players many were pining for at huge dollars (cough Montgomery cough) look to be opportunities best missed. I think a lot of people are underestimating the improvement we'll see going forward, and I absolutely don't think they're anywhere near done, but I also don't think they need all that much to be serious contenders.
In any event, I'm unapologetically excited for this next incarnation of the Red Sox and what that will look like, and to me the rest is just noise.
In the words of the Immortal KGB from Rounders. "Pay that man his money!"
Its probably pretty much done. No way they leave it to spring training.
Thank you. This is exactly how I feel. I am excited in their direction, philosophly, and recently execution. Its crazy how every transcation that occurs anywhere in MLB somehow strengthens an argument of cheapness, inteptness, or whatever nail the hammer owner sees. I mean it is interesting that signing a league avg pitcher coming off injury to about 2-3% of your total budget can be seen as calamity. Somehow I don't think it will veer them off course of their overall direction
It is really about injury, you wouldn't want to grab someone have a high risk of them becoming injured... oh wait.
Looking at these numbers it's a decent bet for some ROI. Fried is obviously better and not coming off TJ but the LOB% and WAR numbers suggest he isn't out of Sandoval's league exactly. Sandoval will still be under 30 in 2026 too. I wonder if they might have Sandoval pitch in relief in 2025 while he comes back?
Well I've been told no short of 10x by the NESN broadcast team that Liam Hendricks is a really great person so
That's all fair, and if we think this is some huge discount on Sandoval then I agree it makes some sense.
Perhaps I'm not giving Sandoval enough credit, but a healthy Sandoval didn't strike me as someone on the verge of a 4/100M deal pre-injury, even accounting for this pitching market. 18M guaranteed isn't totally crazy for 1+ years, but for a big market team that needs a lot of pitching help now, I can understand the tepid response.
I'm not super high on Burnes, but for the sake of argument assume we have offered 7/210 and that won't get it done. What if we offered the exact same contract but with an extra 18M signing bonus (for a total of 7/228)? Would that be a better use of this 18M flier we are taking on a possible mid to late rotation starter, if we're lucky.
Possibly that would have gotten it done pre-Soto & Fried deals, probably it gets it done in mid-March, today I think it doesn't get remotely close.
The Sox did give up a 1st draft pick for him, but the system was very different, and it was much easier to both increase the number of picks your team wound up with and also get talent to fall to you. Theo was especially adept at cycling through free agents to increase the number of picks the Sox had (this was particularly a driver in not re-signing OCab and going after Renteria - it also netted the Sox a 1S pick). The system has changed and the loopholes have been closed, so it’s much more difficult to replenish the talent in your system, although the Sox have done a very good job with this recently.
Probably right, I mostly just picked random numbers in the ballpark.
The point remains... are we an extra 18M signing bonus away from turning an offer were are currently willing to do on Burnes into an offer he will accept? Maybe we aren't, I don't know.
An 18M flier that can be rationalized from a value perspective might not be ideal for a big market team that's only that much short on a far more significant signing.
Well Giolito and Hendricks were supposed to help by end or second half last year and could not. The optimistic timetable is more wishful than real. Sox need three big ticket items to win. I don't need to repeat them, everyone with half a brain knows. Fortunately they have the cash and the fanbase that is mostly still drilling to support that. If they don't come through with the big signings how many of us will still pay the high cost of watching a mediocre at best product. I get depth but I want to win now. I have put up with high prices and a poor product for too long. LFGO Craig.
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I don't think on the level signing Patrick Sandoval hurts the team besides the existential dread one gets from seeing P. Sandoval Red Sox gives you. The question I would have is why you paying 18 million to guarantee this man for the fifth SP next year. Are they assuming he is going to be the best option they will see over the next 12 months? Does this mean you are out on Burnes because Sandoval isn't better than Crawford or Houck or are you waving the flag on Bello already for 2026? Maybe the loading up pitching like the Dodgers but once again I don't get why Patrick Sandoval and if they were going close to luxury tax where this would be blocking something, the money doesn't make a ton of sense.
To take this another direction, in 20 years will anyone remember that we got Roman Anthony with the Xander Bogaerts comp pick? High picks can be pretty valuable sometimes!
Sike, we got Anthony from the ERod QO. X got us Campbell. Wonder how many people bought that just 18 months later.
It’s been pretty clear for a long time now that the Sox aren’t really interested in signing pitchers to long term deals; two years seems to be the limit; so they are pretty limited in who they are going after. I know the idea was that this year things would change- the window was opening- but I think fundamentally, they don’t believe in going long term to free agent pitchers. Which is probably the right move- but it will lead to an endless stream of pitchers cycling through the roster, and inevitably, the prices keep going up when you are only handing out 1-2 year deals at a time. The Richards / Kluber / Paxton / Wacha types seem closer to $15M a year, as opposed to the $8-$10 they were a few years ago.
Giolito was healthy when signed, he hurt himself in spring training and was scratched for the whole season. Unfortunate, but could happen to anyone. He was never intended to be "guy who will help eventually" in the way that Hendricks or Michael Fulmer were.
The collective reaction to a big whatever of a depth signing is pretty bizarre to me, and several of you seem to have already forgotten about the Crochet trade. And the frequent implication that not spending on FA SPs is somehow a recent development for this ownership has been debunked several times over.
If they go out and add another frontline starter, and then come August, 2-4 of our starters are on the DL, and we have Patrick Sandoval to plug into the rotation, then fine.
If the plan is to stand pat with what they’ve got in the rotation and then hope that mid season Sandoval can merely replace the weakest link, then they deserve all the scorn they’re getting. Sure, they got Crochet. Get back to me when they pay him. Nothing about this offseason has dispelled the notion that John Henry didn’t become inexplicably cheap sometime during 2019.
It’s like he’s waking up in cold sweats every night and going to PTSD/trauma therapy over the Sale/Price contracts.
Giolito was never expected to contribute once he went down last year. Hendricks was a crap shoot and I wonder if they may have pushed the envelope if a playoff run was a bit more realistic. As I said
above, you don't spend the capital to get Crochet, who as far as I am concerned was the crown jewel of what was/is gettable for a SP, to stop there. Makes zero sense.
I'd just like to see more talk about the actual team and roster, and not constantly be bombarded by the same posters making the same complaint time after time after time where it makes no sense to do so other than satiating the need for gratuitous griping.
This thread is supposed to be about a guy we acquired at a seemingly reasonable price, especially if you believe Breslow and Bailey know a thing or two about pitching, and know a hell of a lot more than any of us about the acquired player. None of that has a thing to do with ownership or the budget. It's just horrible fucking reading when it unnecessarily permeates every thread, for those who want to talk, you know, baseball. And it's certainly not breaking any new ground.
Thing is, its not a new strategy. Dan Duquette did the same thing in the 1990s, most famously with Bret Saberhagen - you never knew if you were going to get a 15 wins from him or major surgery. Others on the Bosox in those because injury risk made them cheaper included Butch Henry, Joe Hesketh (admittedly a holdover from the Gorman regime), Steve Avery, David West, Rheal Cormier, Pat Rapp, Mark Portugal, and Ramon Martinez. Those teams occasionally got good results from these guys, but not that often, and their struggles contributed to the pre-2004 frustrations of Red Sox Nation.
Of course, the strategy was ultimately necessitated by ownership's lack of interest in competing for high priced talent, something else that group has in common with the more recent roster fillers Patrick Sandoval, Liam Hendriks, Lucas GIolito, James Paxton, Corey Kluber, Michael Wacha, Garret Richards and so on.
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If you had told this board that they’d add Crochet via trade, Buehler/Flaherty via FA, and Sandoval as an insurance policy value play, I think most would agree that would constitute a very nice offseason. There are still SP out there who can help. Adding one may allow us to include Crawford in other moves. Flaherty is young enough where you can give him a 5-6 year deal and feel ok about it.
I’d like to see the Sox step up and grab one of them. There are still RP out there. There are still quality bats.
You can’t judge an offseason in December but I hope there are more meaningful moves coming.
I’d like to see the Sox step up and grab one of them. There are still RP out there. There are still quality bats.
You can’t judge an offseason in December but I hope there are more meaningful moves coming.
Right, pre-2019 John Henry would've never taken cheap fliers on the likes of Bartolo Colon, John Smoltz, Wade Miller, Paul Byrd, Chris Capuano...
First, $18 million is not a "cheap flyer" on Sandoval. Secondly, what did any of those players do to help us win a championship?
The Red Sox won titles when they were willing to spend money to acquire or retain players like Pedro, Schilling, Beckett, and Sale. Its fine to fill out the roster with some gambles, as fundamental building blocks, I'd rather see them compete for that kind of talent than rely heavily on injured players on short term, one-sided contracts.
Wouldn't have made the trade. The reason you give up that return is the understanding that the player will sign an extension the team is willing to give. I still assume this is the case.
I don't disagree. But a) the Sandovals of the world have always been part of the experience and b) none of the four guys you named were signed as free agents.
Interesting depth signing. Obviously Breslow/Bailey think they can change his pitch mix and make him more effective.
I don’t think it’s a steal or anything fantastic.
Also, these types of contracts add up. It’s weird to see the same people complain about contracts and congratulate Breslow for not spending money on them while also acting like a 2 yr/18 mil deal is basically free and of no consequence.
I don’t think it’s a steal or anything fantastic.
Also, these types of contracts add up. It’s weird to see the same people complain about contracts and congratulate Breslow for not spending money on them while also acting like a 2 yr/18 mil deal is basically free and of no consequence.
We all want the Sox to flex their financial muscle. We expect to be in contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars. But is this the better example of financial muscle, paying someone, here it’s 5.5 million dollars for next year even though there is a reasonable likelihood he doesn’t throw a pitch for you next year. Some teams can’t be so callous with 5.5 million dollars.
Additionally on a separate matter, assuming they get an extension done with Crochet, is there a chance or a benefit to signing an extension but that it doesn’t kick in until 2026?
Additionally on a separate matter, assuming they get an extension done with Crochet, is there a chance or a benefit to signing an extension but that it doesn’t kick in until 2026?
Yes, but they were all acquired because the team was willing to spend the money it would take to keep them. Hopefully, that happens with Crochet if he proves to be as good as everybody hopes he will be, but I'm in the "I'll believe it when I see it camp."
High picks have always been valuable, the more interesting bit of trivia would be that they were supplemental picks rather than the top pick by the Sox. The team has done a good job of picking out talent, but to me that points towards a reason to keep their picks, rather than spending one on Teoscar.
More to the point, if they sign Crochet to big bucks before he throws a pitch in spring training and his arm falls off in June, will you guys please sit quietly in the corner for the duration of his albatross contract?
No, it's not a new strategy, every team makes depth signings and takes fliers. You can't have 5 aces or enough bullpen arms, and many listed above were solid in their roles, and some haven't thrown a pitch for us yet to evaluate. And I sure as hell would have liked the chance of having Sandoval's depth late last year.
What kills me is that this acquisition will absolutely not preclude them from addressing any further needs, including SP, and people are acting like this signing was presented as a big splash and looking at the worst possible scenarios. All the signs I'm seeing point to more to come, and every minor/middling move is just that, not some indication that larger moves won't be made.
And again, I think some people are greatly underestimating what we'll see both in acquisitions and what we'll get from those already/still here. We learned a lot last year about our young pitchers and position players alike at the ML level, a lot of it pretty damn good. Our best prospects are ready to bang down the door. There's a lot to be excited about if one looks, and one doesn't really even have to look very hard. Is it all unicorns and rainbows? Fuck no, but what is?
I'm thrilled we got Crochet, and it's certainly not a move you make in a vacuum. I'm willing to let things play out. Contrary to others, it seems to me that while not everything has been yet delivered, we're far from done with packages. Only time will tell, but I'm pretty comfortable with that take.
They weren't allowed to communicate with the player prior to the trade so how could they know how willing to sign he would be? You trade for a guy with two years of control with the hope you can use those two years to lock him up long term. That doesn't mean it has to be done a week after the trade to justify the deal. Extend him tomorrow, 12 months from now, or 18 months from now, it's all amounts to the same thing.
Teams backchannel with agents all of the time, especially when it’s a player who is widely known to be on the trade market.
I’d bet a hell of a lot of money that the Sox had an idea of what Crochet wanted for an extension before they made that trade
You're going to have to show your work if you want to claim that "these types of contracts" are hindering the club from making other moves. Giolito, Chapman, Sandoval, and Hendriks aren't getting in the way of signing a Shiny New FA Toy if Breslow decides the toy is worth it, they're all off the books by '26 at the latest, and if they're still here it's because it worked out for the team.
The looming spectre of the Sox refusing to go over the CBT / Henry having a hard limit well below the first CBT.
The work is that Henry obviously has a budget and any dollar spent is a dollar that can’t be spent on someone else?
I mean, that’s not remotely controversial.
So, name one free agent out there that you have a stiffie for who's now out the window because of those signings.
Also, knowing that the team has a budget isn't vaguely in the same ballpark as "knowing" what JH will say if Breslow approaches him with a deal in 26 or 27 that goes over budget but might well be the missing piece.
Don't bother responding if you don't have any work to show, it'll save both of us time and aggravation.
You have really misread the point I was making, and are being oddly aggressive about it.
I never once said that there’s a free agent out there that they missed out on because of Sandoval, or that they would miss out on a free agent because of him.
Honestly, I have no idea what point you are even trying to make or why a post saying that money spent adds up triggered you so much. I’m incredibly confused as to all of your responses honestly
I don't have the time or energy for your pathetic little pissing matches. I'm going to block you and suggest that you block me. And for the record, you should be embarrassed by your actions.