Red Sox Rumors - Just Kidding

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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I'm not going to lie, I had no interest in Joey Wendle before the Story injury and I have even less interest in him now. The 2023 Red Sox were a 4th / 5th place team in their own division before the Story injury and now it only means we're 5th as opposed to possibly overtaking Baltimore. I had zero interest in giving up anything that might be of future value for one season of Joey Wendle when it's not like we're in a contention window anyway. There are so many variances of error bars that would need to break in our favor just to be a team that looked like a 3rd place squad and a potential for anything but the last wild card, I just don't see doubling down on that by giving up something that could be of future value for someone that does have present value, but doesn't do anything to really increase our position in the scheme of the American League.

I'd far rather just sign Profar, whom is at least 3 years younger and wouldn't cost anything that might possibly have any shot of contributing to the 2025-27 core. (Or Iglesias, or Andrus, or, literally, anyone). Anyone we're trading a prospect (ie potential) for should be under control for that 2025-27 window, otherwise, it's just wasting an asset.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Can Profar still play 2b? He hasn’t done it much in the last three seasons.

Wendle would be fine if the cost is something like Duran or Dalbec and a low level minor leaguer.
 

Harry Hooper

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Given the 40-man roster crunch at present, making a trade or two to move some players will not be wasting assets. As always, however, the trick is getting proper value in the deals.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Can Profar still play 2b? He hasn’t done it much in the last three seasons.

Wendle would be fine if the cost is something like Duran or Dalbec and a low level minor leaguer.
Profar is probably better suited as an outfielder in an optimal situation, but I don't think anything about the 2023 or 2024 Red Sox is "optimal situation" territory. But as a swtich hitter, and someone that is at least capable of covering pretty much every position on the diamond (to varying degrees of defensive competency) he provides a lot of insurance. He last played any semblance of time at 2b in 2021 (just under 60 innings, per FanGraphs), but I think that also probably has a lot to do with the Padres having far better middle infield options than Profar, which isn't something that is presently "afflicting" the Red Sox for 2023 and 2024, and it's debatable for beyond as we don't know what the prospects will turn into just yet.

I wouldn't want to give up a low level minor leaguer with any degree of potential at all because there is at least the chance that player could be part of the 2025-27 window and I think it's a literal 0% chance Joey Wendle would be. Even someone like Dalbec, at least he provides a platoon option if Casas continues to prove incapable of hitting LHP. Obviously, I'd trade Dalbec for someone that is young and controllable for that window in one second, I just don't think it's worth it for a stop gap 2b on a team who's ceiling is likely capped at around 85 wins.

Durran looks unusable in any situation (whereas Dalbec has a skill set that we can point to in hitting LHP) so I guess fine. My overall point is I just don't think the small chance of whatever minor leaguer we'd move for Wendle becoming a competent piece is worth it to add to "just" the 2023 Red Sox. Someone we'd have to dump in a 40 man crunch before 2025, fine. But if a player is easily kept in the organization for 2025-27, I think they're more valuable to the franchise than one season of Joey Wendle, when that one season is 2023, of course.
 
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E5 Yaz

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He's an anonymous shit-thrower that apparently was lucky enough to have some shit actually stick to the wall once so some seem to think he's plugged in somehow.
Plus, the Wendle rumor has been around for a couple of weeks
 

moondog80

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I think the sun has set on Profar's time as anything more than an emergency 2B, especially with shift ban. There's a reason the last time he really did it was 2019 (-1.3 dWAR). If he could still do it someone would have singed him for that role after 2020, or in this offseason for that matter. Guys don't move up the defensive spectrum as they age.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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The reason I prefer Profar as opposed to any of the other similar names bandied about (FWIW, I think guys like Adames and Kim are several tiers above Profarm, whom I categorize with the Iglesias, Andrus, Wendle options) are his versatility, in terms of insurance provided and being a switch hitter. I think of him as a bit better version of Brock Holt, and I mean this as a compliment to both guys. I also like that at his age (will be 30 this season) he's the type of guy you could probably give a multi year deal to and it allows you the chance to see WHICH prospects develop and not really be blocking any one player.

To @moondog80 point, he's best suited as a super utility guy on a good team, and therefore I think he'd be worthwhile to have not only in 2023/24 when we won't be good, but he could serve as a caddy or insurance to a lot of the prospects we have coming up for the 2025-27 window as a hypothetical 4 year deal would cover his age 30-33 seasons so you'd be getting his "prime." Based on their ages, the same can't really be said for Wendle, Iglesias or Andrus.

When the Red Sox are good again (or at least there is real potential to be good again), Profar would be serving AS the emergency 2b, ostensibly backing up Trevor Story at 2b and Marcelo Mayer at SS. FWIW, I consider the entire lineup for 2023 outside of Casas, Devers, Verdguo and probably Turner to be "this IS an emergency" situation.
 
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bsj

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Profar and Iglesias/Andrus wouldn't be a horrible solution. The offense would definitely be weak but that at least gets some talent in the middle of the field.
Problem is we just have too many darn dead spots in the offense. I feel like we have at least 5 guys who are complete crapshoots as to what they bring to the table offensively. I really think we need at least one more legitimate offensive performer whether it be art 2B, CF, SS...or even an upgrade behind the plate (although that seems unlikely at this point)
 

jbupstate

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Dalbec has show he can hit LHP. Assuming he’s on the roster…. Can he spell Casas at 1B and Yoshida at DH against lefties? Can he hold down the fort at 2B or 3B in day after night games?

Expectations for the Sox are way down. Might Bobby play a little better with less pressure and better utilization?
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Problem is we just have too many darn dead spots in the offense. I feel like we have at least 5 guys who are complete crapshoots as to what they bring to the table offensively. I really think we need at least one more legitimate offensive performer whether it be art 2B, CF, SS...or even an upgrade behind the plate (although that seems unlikely at this point)
The entire starting line up and rotation outside of Devers, Verdugo and Pivetta are somewhere between "crapshoot" and "question mark" and based on whom we're apparently willing (and not willing) to trade, that's all were going to get back, anyway. Say we did land Joey Wendle - he's a crapshoot. He's going to be 33 years old and in his last 3 seasons he's been horrible in two of them (71 OPS+ in 2019, 2020 counts for nothing, 2021 108 OPS+ and 86 OPS+ last year).

The guys whom are at least relatively certain bets to produce when they are in the line up are gone in free agency. The players whom will produce and make any sense for the long term core of the franchise are going to cost really good prospects.

For example, I'd be all over adding Bryan Reynolds to the Red Sox. He's a middle of the order caliber bat (127 career OPS+), he's only going to be 28, is under control through the 2025 season (so one assumes we should be able to work out an extension this year or before next) and plays a position of need. He's also therefore very valuable. While not the be all / end all, the MLB trade simulator (and the "don't assume another GM is a moron" test) shows that a package of Rafaela, Houck and Verdugo isn't even really close to "fair value" even in theory, much less in the real world, just to name a few.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to add this type of player and I think we desperately need this type of player (for the next core, not to mention right now) but that's going to cost a ton. I can see why packaging Rafaela and Houck AND other really good prospects for Reynolds makes sense in 2023 but more importantly for the next 5 years, so to speak. I see no reason to target a one year stop gap as any part of a "piece" coming back for those type of guys.
 

JM3

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The entire starting line up and rotation outside of Devers, Verdugo and Pivetta are somewhere between "crapshoot" and "question mark" and based on whom we're apparently willing (and not willing) to trade, that's all were going to get back, anyway. Say we did land Joey Wendle - he's a crapshoot. He's going to be 33 years old and in his last 3 seasons he's been horrible in two of them (71 OPS+ in 2019, 2020 counts for nothing, 2021 108 OPS+ and 86 OPS+ last year).
I have no particular interest in Mr. Wendle, but it seems a bit arbitrary to say '19 counts (263 PAs) but '20 doesn't (184 PAs), & also his best season, '18, doesn't count.
 

nvalvo

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Maybe they see him as a reliever but that is frightening.
Oh, I might be interested on a cheap deal — say, 2/$5m — as a middle reliever with insane upside if they can get his mechanics together, but I don't think anyone would see him as a starting pitcher in MLB at this point. I don't think he's getting a big deal with those walk rates. The stuff is amazing, though.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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I have no particular interest in Mr. Wendle, but it seems a bit arbitrary to say '19 counts (263 PAs) but '20 doesn't (184 PAs), & also his best season, '18, doesn't count.
I'm just trying to be consistent in that for me 2020 doesn't count for anyone or anything related to a real baseball season. I put equal weight to the validity of the Dodgers "title", any player's "season stats" and the proof in the existence of a man from the North Pole delivering presents to all the children in the world in a sleigh driven by flying reindeer.

2020 stats are meaningless across the board.
 

jon abbey

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I'm just trying to be consistent in that for me 2020 doesn't count for anyone or anything related to a real baseball season. I put equal weight to the validity of the Dodgers "title", any player's "season stats" and the proof in the existence of a man from the North Pole delivering presents to all the children in the world in a sleigh driven by flying reindeer.

2020 stats are meaningless across the board.
Amusingly I'd say 2020 stats are more valid than 2019 ones in terms of future projection, as 2019 seemed to have quite the juiced ball.

Either way, once you start throwing out entire seasons (even shortened ones), you're not left with much else.
 

chrisfont9

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He makes the most of getting on base, too - 21 SB last year. Seems like a good get. I know it's become something of a meme at this point, but Duran (+ a mid-level prospect) might actually make sense here in a trade - Seattle likely needs cost-controlled outfield depth to offset their Rodriguez extension.
Dalbec partly grew up here in Seattle. I know that sort of thing is usually meaningless but people here would take to him.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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Any interest in Dylan Moore? No idea how Seattle values him but he could be useful as a fill-in/utility piece. 30 years old with 2 years of arb remaining. Played all over the field last year, can run a bit, and put up a .368 on base over 100~ games.
Moore is probably “available” in the same sense that lots of guys are “available for the right price, but I doubt they’re in any hurry to deal him. I think he’s their only proper IF who isn’t earmarked for a starting role at the moment, and he’s expected to get a good amount of playing time regardless of role.

I will say that I could see Dalbec as a bench fit for them, but not in exchange for Moore. Duran really doesn’t make sense there.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Amusingly I'd say 2020 stats are more valid than 2019 ones in terms of future projection, as 2019 seemed to have quite the juiced ball.

Either way, once you start throwing out entire seasons (even shortened ones), you're not left with much else.
I admittedly shouldn't have been as flippant about it, and I get your point.

It was just SUCH an outlier, that I find it really tough to just aggregate it with other full seasons of data. We obviously think of the so-called major changes that year (60 games, playing in a pandemic, empty stands, etc) but even when you think of some of the more "forgotten" things such as only playing teams in your geographic division; having "two" spring trainings; the issues with video equipment that JD Martinez always alluded to, etc that it just is really difficult for me to look at it as anything other than guys having a good / bad two months.

However, even factoring in 2020, the idea of expending anything that could be of future value for one season of a 33 year old whom is pretty much exactly league average offensively (101 career OPS+; 100 wRC+) seems like a poor choice. It's valuing 2023 over 2025-27 and I don't think that's wise based on all the question marks up and down the starting line up and the rotation.
 

JM3

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I admittedly shouldn't have been as flippant about it, and I get your point.

It was just SUCH an outlier, that I find it really tough to just aggregate it with other full seasons of data. We obviously think of the so-called major changes that year (60 games, playing in a pandemic, empty stands, etc) but even when you think of some of the more "forgotten" things such as only playing teams in your geographic division; having "two" spring trainings; the issues with video equipment that JD Martinez always alluded to, etc that it just is really difficult for me to look at it as anything other than guys having a good / bad two months.

However, even factoring in 2020, the idea of expending anything that could be of future value for one season of a 33 year old whom is pretty much exactly league average offensively (101 career OPS+; 100 wRC+) seems like a poor choice. It's valuing 2023 over 2025-27 and I don't think that's wise based on all the question marks up and down the starting line up and the rotation.
It was literally the same season he had in '18...117 wRC+ both seasons.

Regardless, I don't want him, so I'm not really sure why I'm advocating for him beyond principle.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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It was literally the same season he had in '18...117 wRC+ both seasons.

Regardless, I don't want him, so I'm not really sure why I'm advocating for him beyond principle.
I'm referring to the entire 2020 Covid Tournament, not just Wendle's (or anyone's) season.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but haven't you been stating that Bloom recognizing the insignificance of the 2020 season and punting should be seen as a check for him and that the 2020 finish shouldn't be counted against him because of how crazy that situation was? (If this isn't you, I apologize; I happen to agree with those takes, by the way). But if we're going to say it "doesn't count" for an executive, don't we have to be consistent and say it doesn't count across the board?

Anyway, whatever. Doesn't matter to me if Wendle had a 125 OPS+ in 2020 or a 50 OPS+, I don't think it makes sense to invest something that might be useful in 2025-27 for something that will just be useful in 2023 based on how the team looks relative to the rest of it's division and league for the 2023 season.
 

JM3

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I'm referring to the entire 2020 Covid Tournament, not just Wendle's (or anyone's) season.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but haven't you been stating that Bloom recognizing the insignificance of the 2020 season and punting should be seen as a check for him and that the 2020 finish shouldn't be counted against him because of how crazy that situation was? (If this isn't you, I apologize; I happen to agree with those takes, by the way). But if we're going to say it "doesn't count" for an executive, don't we have to be consistent and say it doesn't count across the board?

Anyway, whatever. Doesn't matter to me if Wendle had a 125 OPS+ in 2020 or a 50 OPS+, I don't think it makes sense to invest something that might be useful in 2025-27 for something that will just be useful in 2023 based on how the team looks relative to the rest of it's division and league for the 2023 season.
I thought you meant for Wendle, so my bad. I would definitely say his '18 + '20 hitting results would have more predictive impact than his truncated '19 results, even if all of that is minimal.

I think it was wise of Bloom not to do anything drastic & shortsighted in '20. Hard to give him much credit or blame for that season beyond that, though.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Carry on, but no, I meant across the board. It's why I mentioned the Dodgers title and how little validity I give that for a 60 game tournament. (And for what it's worth, I completely absolve Bloom or anyone of whatever happened in the 2020 season. The entire thing was a mess of epic proportions.)
 

BornToRun

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I'm referring to the entire 2020 Covid Tournament, not just Wendle's (or anyone's) season.

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but haven't you been stating that Bloom recognizing the insignificance of the 2020 season and punting should be seen as a check for him and that the 2020 finish shouldn't be counted against him because of how crazy that situation was? (If this isn't you, I apologize; I happen to agree with those takes, by the way). But if we're going to say it "doesn't count" for an executive, don't we have to be consistent and say it doesn't count across the board?

Anyway, whatever. Doesn't matter to me if Wendle had a 125 OPS+ in 2020 or a 50 OPS+, I don't think it makes sense to invest something that might be useful in 2025-27 for something that will just be useful in 2023 based on how the team looks relative to the rest of it's division and league for the 2023 season.
The pigfucker led the league in homers in 2020. It was an extremely weird season and while I won’t discount it entirely, I tend not to give it too much weight if someone struggled through it.
 

bosox1534

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Padres just signed Nelson Cruz. Maybe this increases the frequency of Carpenter to first, Cronenworth to second, and makes Kim more available.
Don’t think Cruz Or Carp are good enough to play everyday so probably just a platoon situation. Still think Kim is available though.
 

JM3

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Both guys make a certain amount of sense for the Padres. But yeah, neither would be the best player they would get in any deal.
 

BornToRun

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Why would the Padres do it though? That's the question. Arroyo and Dalbec for Kim seems like a steal for the Red Sox. Maybe there are more pieces to it?
Yeah, I’m skeptical that would come close and I’m sure that account is just throwing shit at the wall. I’m just now realizing how good he actually is. I was thinking nice utility guy who can hit a bit, not potential star.
 

moondog80

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If the rumor is Dalbec and Arroyo and these rumors are all true, Houck plus those two is too much for Kim. Maybe it’s Kim and Grissom?

View: https://twitter.com/ggeiss24/status/1613321293209960449?s=46&t=r8dWfRlBvBaoWCEf-U8cXQ
"3 others" is doing an awful lot of work here. I guess we can assume it's 3 guys less valuable than Houck, but how much less?

Even if it's zero others, I'm not sure how I feel about giving up 5 years of Houck for 2 of Kim to help a .500-ish team. Alhough Fangraphs projects him to have a wRC+ or 106, which is actually higher than last year. So...maybe?
 

GB5

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Red Sox signed Greg Allen who I believe is an AAA/ fringe ML outfielder.

Does SD signing Cruz mane Dalbec less likely to land there?
 

simplicio

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Even if we get Kim and sign Iglesias, we still kinda need Arroyo for the bench as long as Story's out, no?