Red Sox Rumors - Just Kidding

Petagine in a Bottle

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How are any of these guys preferable to Verdugo? Grossman is 33 years old with a career slugging % of .377; while Verdugo is .431. That seems like a downgrade to me. Even if Verdugo brings back Kim; isn’t the team better off with Verdugo/Andrus rather than Grossman/Kim?

There seems to be an obsession with bounce back candidates form other teams, is there any reason that Verdugo can’t improve on last season? If he were on another team we’d be all over him.
 

cantor44

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The Avi García option is interesting, in that scenario we get a pitcher back. The Marlins want to put Bryan de la Cruz from center field to a corner, where he's currently blocked by García and Sanchez (and Soler at DH).

Garcia was reportedly motivated for a bounce back after an out of shape year in 2022. OTOH, he really was dreadful last year, and his chase rate has been horrible for several years now.

How about Robbie Grossman? Like Garcia, he's another guy who had a dreadful 2022, particularly the first half of 2022. But he put up a 118 wRC+ in 863 PAs over 2020-21 and he's at least an average right fielder. He struggled against RHP last year, but was shifted on in 82 percent of his PAs against them, and would stand to benefit there. He'd fit really well with the team's emphasis on plate discipline, high walk rates and low chase rates.
These are decent makeshift ideas, and I found myself reading them, thinking, "oh, not a bad idea." And then I checked myself, and thought, "wait, how has it come to this? The Red Sox motis has become making due, looking for bargains, and reclamations, and advanced advanced metric tea leave reading. What happened?" There was a long while the Red Sox would always have a few of the very best players in baseball in any given season. I mean, in some ways, the current squad has the least in-their-prime- blue-chip talent since the mid-60s. And yet the Red Sox are rich organization. Honestly, what, exactly, is going on? Is it The Plan? Am I not able to perceive The Plan in my layman's myopia? I certainly hope so.
 

dhappy42

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These are decent makeshift ideas, and I found myself reading them, thinking, "oh, not a bad idea." And then I checked myself, and thought, "wait, how has it come to this? The Red Sox motis has become making due, looking for bargains, and reclamations, and advanced advanced metric tea leave reading. What happened?" There was a long while the Red Sox would always have a few of the very best players in baseball in any given season. I mean, in some ways, the current squad has the least in-their-prime- blue-chip talent since the mid-60s. And yet the Red Sox are rich organization. Honestly, what, exactly, is going on? Is it The Plan? Am I not able to perceive The Plan in my layman's myopia? I certainly hope so.
In the mid sixties, the Sox had more in-their-prime stars: Yaz, Tony C., Lonborg, just to name three.
 

chawson

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These are decent makeshift ideas, and I found myself reading them, thinking, "oh, not a bad idea." And then I checked myself, and thought, "wait, how has it come to this? The Red Sox motis has become making due, looking for bargains, and reclamations, and advanced advanced metric tea leave reading. What happened?" There was a long while the Red Sox would always have a few of the very best players in baseball in any given season. I mean, in some ways, the current squad has the least in-their-prime- blue-chip talent since the mid-60s. And yet the Red Sox are rich organization. Honestly, what, exactly, is going on? Is it The Plan? Am I not able to perceive The Plan in my layman's myopia? I certainly hope so.
I hear you, but among other factors, the increased parity among teams' resources and FO intelligence has narrowed the gap considerably. A generation ago, front offices were distinguished by their differences in talent evaluation. Now that everyone has access to more or less the same advanced information, teams are moreso distinguished by their willingness to assume risk, which they’ve converted to econometric terms.

But on the Avisail García deal specifically, the motivating factor there is not García, but one of their young starters (Rogers, who has four years of team control remaining, or López, who has two). Rogers seems like someone they'd target. They like very tall pitchers (often with extended release points) lately.
 
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Bread of Yaz

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Mar 12, 2019
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One thing I’m absolutely confident in saying is that there’s not one GM that is in their position to be clever. Nobody is trying to make a magic roster from cow poop.
Every single one is working within the confines of ownership’s budget direction. That’s it.
And from my POV, Henry’s is bi-polar and one of the most difficult to navigate.
1000 times this. Thank you for encapsulating the point so well.
 

JM3

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In the vast history of the Red Sox, they have never made the playoffs more than 3 years in a row.

It obviously used to be harder back in the day, but they are trying to set themselves up to be in there every year like the Dodgers (10 years in a row, 3nd longest streak in MLB history behind only the '91-'05 Braves & '95-'07 Yankees), Astros & Yankees (6 years in a row, tied for 4th longest of all time), Braves (5 years in a row, tied for 6th longest all time), & Rays/Cards (4 years in a row, tied for 13th longest of all time).

This is an era when you can set your franchise up for the playoffs every single year by building up your system in a smart way & having the financial wherewithal to keep it humming once you get there.

Does it make for less exciting off-seasons than the boom or bust Red Sox cycles? Sure, especially during the ramp up phase. But if they're in the playoffs every year for the foreseeable future starting in 2024, that will be fun, & the elite talent will become part of that once the cheaper infrastructure of pre-Arb talent is in place.

You really can't buy your way out of a bad farm system for any meaningful period of time.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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These are decent makeshift ideas, and I found myself reading them, thinking, "oh, not a bad idea." And then I checked myself, and thought, "wait, how has it come to this? The Red Sox motis has become making due, looking for bargains, and reclamations, and advanced advanced metric tea leave reading. What happened?" There was a long while the Red Sox would always have a few of the very best players in baseball in any given season. I mean, in some ways, the current squad has the least in-their-prime- blue-chip talent since the mid-60s. And yet the Red Sox are rich organization. Honestly, what, exactly, is going on? Is it The Plan? Am I not able to perceive The Plan in my layman's myopia? I certainly hope so.
Making due and looking for bargains was the name of the game in the 90s for the Red Sox. Sure they had Clemens and Boggs early on, and Vaughn and Nomar and Pedro in the latter half, but most of the rest of the rosters were filled with unfulfilled promises, has-beens, never-wases, and retreads galore. Those were the days when the major free agent acquisitions were guys like Danny Darwin and Andre Dawson and Jack Clark and Matt Young and Frank Viola and Bret Saberhagen. When scrap-heap pickups Tim Wakefield and Troy O'Leary and Reggie Jefferson were just as key contributors as homegrown "stars" like Aaron Sele and John Valentin and Tim Naehring. Sometimes I think the successes of the last 20 years or so has clouded our view of history. They haven't always been a big spending titan of the game with an unending supply of "blue chip" talent.

The Sox had a sustained run of success where they were able to exploit their high revenue in ways other teams couldn't (or wouldn't), but the rules have changed a bunch to take away those advantages (draft slotting, bonus caps, international spending caps, etc). The playing field is more level than ever. It's harder to be the smartest team in the league, if they ever really were.
 

InsideTheParker

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Is this a Red Sox discussion thread or a Red Sox Rumor thread? I come here for rumors, and I read discussions.
This is reality. I hate it, but I've given up. The last time I complained @E5 Yaz told me I thenceforward had the responsibility of posting some rumors. My problem is that I don't know how to find them, consequently I look here. Mostly to no avail. I have become an expert skimmer, tho.
 

Rovin Romine

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These are decent makeshift ideas, and I found myself reading them, thinking, "oh, not a bad idea." And then I checked myself, and thought, "wait, how has it come to this? The Red Sox motis has become making due,
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/benjami01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/penato01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/c/coopesc01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lugoju01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/n/nunezed02.shtml

looking for bargains, and reclamations,
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/saberbr01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/dawsoan01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/bicheda01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/w/wakefti01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/o'leatr01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beltrad01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lowelmi01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/ortizda01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/velazhe01.shtml

and advanced advanced metric tea leave reading.
Generally some of the above, plus:
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/o/okajihi01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/y/youklke01.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/muellbi02.shtml

What happened?"
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2004.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2007.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2013.shtml
https://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2018.shtml
 
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InsideTheParker

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These are decent makeshift ideas, and I found myself reading them, thinking, "oh, not a bad idea." And then I checked myself, and thought, "wait, how has it come to this? The Red Sox motis has become making due,
I always thought the expression was "making do, " so I looked it up.
Here's one take on it: https://grammarist.com/usage/make-do-make-due/
The idiom meaning to manage to get along with the means available is make do, not make due. Make do is short for make [something] do well enough, where do carries the rare sense to serve a specified purpose. So this do is similar to the one used in sentences such as, “I could use a cup of coffee, but tea will do.”

While it’s tempting to call make due a misspelling and leave it at that, make due appears often enough (about once for every ten instances of make do in a current Google News search) to have gained some acceptance, and some people (including commenters on this post) find it at least as logical as make do. Perhaps due, which is mainly an adjective, could here bear the sense appropriate (as in, we have done due diligence), or perhaps it could mean sufficient (as in, we have due cause to be thankful). And because the phrase is an idiom, its logic can be loose.

Still, that we can almost justify the use of make due doesn’t change the fact that make do is the standard form in edited writing from throughout the English-speaking world. If you are writing for an audience that might view make due as a misspelling, it’s probably best to go with the safer, more conventional spelling.
Anyway, to your actual point, yes, I believe that there is evidence here and there that the current modus operandi of the Boston Red Sox is to Make Do. And tinker a little. And wait for youngsters to grow up. Sort of like your average family. (P.S. This point is consistent with my position of having given up on this being a rumors thread.)
 

JM3

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The problem with rumors is there aren't any, & the ones that exist are non-predictive.

The problem with threads is, they all need to be about how bad the Red Sox are doing.
 

YTF

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The Sox had a sustained run of success where they were able to exploit their high revenue in ways other teams couldn't (or wouldn't), but the rules have changed a bunch to take away those advantages (draft slotting, bonus caps, international spending caps, etc). The playing field is more level than ever. It's harder to be the smartest team in the league, if they ever really were.
And if I might piggyback onto this...Not only is the playing field more level than ever, there are more team competing on said field with there being 30 teams in today's game vs 20 in the mid 60's.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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I’ve been beating this drum for awhile. Get it done, Chaim.
Sign me up for this as well. With San Diego having completely gutted their farm system, I wonder if something along the lines of Kim to the Sox and Duran, Yorke and Walter to the Pads works for both teams. It checks out on Baseball Trade Values (with a slight edge to the Pads).

In the real world, they have Tatis, Grisham (at present) and Soto in the OF, but I can see them wanting to have some back up out there as a check on their 40man shows Jose Azocar as their only other OF. Yorke isn't "expendable" but you have to give up something to get something, and with Mayer (SS), Rafaela (SS/CF), Mikey Romero (SS/2b) all in that Portland / Salem / Greenville area with Valdez (3b/2b) in AAA or even Boston, there is some depth at the middle infield positions. I believe their only pitching prospect to have made more than a handful of starts above the AA level is... Jay Groome, so I could see the appeal to Walter. Especially since Snell is a good bet to miss at least a month's worth of start's per season.

Kim is under control up through the 2026 season, and allows Story to stay at 2b - where he was excellent. Last season he had a home / road split of .659 / .754 by OPS, so I don't think it's unfair to say that with half his games at Fenway (and he's a pull hitter, though I'm not sure how to properly paste the chart from BB Savant), putting up a similar .750OPS or better seems a good bet.

We're not getting someone like Adames without really taking a hit to the top of the farm. However with the Padres complete sell of their farm the past couple of years AND their depth in the infield, I could see several paths to a match.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/ha-seong-kim-673490?stats=statcast-r-hitting-mlb
 

GB5

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According to BostonSportsGordo which I think is Gordon Edes, the Sox had a deal in place tjis off-season with The Brewers for Kolton Wong bjt Brewers Management scuttled it.
 

gehrig

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Kim is under control up through the 2026 season,
Is there a source for this? He's under contract for 2 more years. Most players coming from Asia get it written in their deal that they're released after their contract is up so they can become a free agent instead of being subject to arbitration.
 

SouthernBoSox

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Is there a source for this? He's under contract for 2 more years. Most players coming from Asia get it written in their deal that they're released after their contract is up so they can become a free agent instead of being subject to arbitration.
Yea, he only has two years left. Which weirdly makes him more of a fit rather than less of one.
 

GB5

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Well done Monty. More stunning end to a game in that World Series, Middlebrooks inference or Wong pickoff?
 

moondog80

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According to BostonSportsGordo which I think is Gordon Edes, the Sox had a deal in place tjis off-season with The Brewers for Kolton Wong bjt Brewers Management scuttled it.
So in that scenario they were OK with Story at SS.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Wong was traded to Seattle on 12/2, Bogaerts and the Pads agreed to a deal on 12/7. So, if true, it certainly muddles the idea that the Sox thought they were going to resign Xander.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Is there a source for this? He's under contract for 2 more years. Most players coming from Asia get it written in their deal that they're released after their contract is up so they can become a free agent instead of being subject to arbitration.
Huh, baseball reference on his player page listed him with the contract of 2021-2024, with a mutual option on 2025. It also says he is arb eligible in 2025 and a free agent in 2027.

Cots mentions the same deal, with the option, but does not say anything about him not being subject to arbitration.

I took BB Ref at face value, though they could be wrong.
 

Rovin Romine

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Workman did get that bizarro rundown v. Detroit in the ALCS. And man, when were one Nava away from being no-hit in the first game, with Scherzer and Verlander up for games 2 and 3. . .
 

The Gray Eagle

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Ah Koji! I miss that guy so much.
Sad that we will never find anyone good like him anymore now that we only do bargain hunting deals and sign old guys to cheap contracts.

(I posted that obvious sarcasm in the last line, then I realized that on the main board as it is now, there are probably lots of people who won't get that it's obvious sarcasm and will want to reply "Well actually..." so I better point out that it is in fact obvious sarcasm, since we signed him for his age 38 season for $4.25 million.)
 

Murby

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Well done Monty. More stunning end to a game in that World Series, Middlebrooks inference or Wong pickoff?
To me, it was the interference play because it was completely unexpected. Guys get picked off now and then during a season. Maybe my memory is like Petagine in a Bottle's, but I don't recall the interference being called much.
 

soxhop411

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Ah Koji! I miss that guy so much.
Sad that we will never find anyone good like him anymore now that we only do bargain hunting deals and sign old guys to cheap contracts.

(I posted that obvious sarcasm in the last line, then I realized that on the main board as it is now, there are probably lots of people who won't get that it's obvious sarcasm and will want to reply "Well actually..." so I better point out that it is in fact obvious sarcasm, since we signed him for his age 38 season for $4.25 million.)
Lets also not forget that Koji was literally third on the pecking order for closer for the 2013 season, and he only became the closer after Andrew Bailey and Joel Hanrahan failed in the closer role... (Koji was "named" closer on Jun 21st).....
 

BigSoxFan

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2013 Koji was such a gift to us all. How lucky we are to have that guy with that season live on in our memories.
It truly was amazing just how calm I was when he got the ball in every high leverage situation. This wasn’t prime Mariano, it was a guy at the tail end of his career who had a high 80s fastball who just slammed the door shut in basically every outing all year. One of my favorite Red Sox players ever.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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IMO to ask "is it even possible" at THIS point of the off season seems a bit odd. As has been mentioned across the many threads here, the remaining FAs don't offer a whole lot and the likely path is via trade. Kepler and Reynolds are of two of the most mentioned names, but there are certainly other viable options that may become available when other teams have tweaked there rosters. There are a few trade chips that the Sox can offer that won't greatly alter the MiL system and there is still the possibility of a Devers trade.
The asking price on Reynolds is reportedly very high. One of our Yankee fan members said they asked for Nestor Cortes, for example. I guess never say never, but it strikes me as unlikely that the Red Sox would pay a price like that, even if they had someone comparable to Cortes on the roster.

Kepler has been discussed here quite a bit, but I’m not sure if he is indeed available? Happy to be corrected about that if I’ve missed anything.

You already got upset when someone suggested you were talking about a situation where they trade Devers for a new RF, so I’m not sure what you were getting at with that? Also, saying “who knows who might be available later” is technically true but also always technically true?

Overall, I think given the way this off-season has gone where a lot of prominent players have already found new homes (via both free agency and trade), I think taking a look at who is still potentially available and then wondering if they’re worth acquiring is a worthy exercise. The original question deserved - arguably still deserves - more scrutiny. Pointing to the calendar doesn’t really move the discussion forwards.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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According to BostonSportsGordo which I think is Gordon Edes, the Sox had a deal in place tjis off-season with The Brewers for Kolton Wong bjt Brewers Management scuttled it.
I don't know who BostonSportsGordo is but it most certainly is not Gordon Edes. It is some anonymous rando rumormonger and should be paid absolutely no mind.

Gordon Edes posts on social media as GordonEdes. He also hasn't been on the beat in years, and lives in Chicago, so I doubt he's got any Red Sox scoops.
 

chawson

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The asking price on Reynolds is reportedly very high. One of our Yankee fan members said they asked for Nestor Cortes, for example. I guess never say never, but it strikes me as unlikely that the Red Sox would pay a price like that, even if they had someone comparable to Cortes on the roster.

Kepler has been discussed here quite a bit, but I’m not sure if he is indeed available? Happy to be corrected about that if I’ve missed anything.
Kepler was reported as being shopped this winter by the Twins front office in a Dec. 15 piece in The Athletic. That story cites the reason is that they've got a glut of LHH corner outfielders (even before signing Joey Gallo), and they're less wild than they used to be about playing Kepler in center field (as a Buxton backup). Gallo was signed five days after this was published, so I'd have to imagine he's certain to be moved now.
 
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DJnVa

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According to BostonSportsGordo which I think is Gordon Edes, the Sox had a deal in place tjis off-season with The Brewers for Kolton Wong bjt Brewers Management scuttled it.
Sounds like they didn't have an agreement.
 

YTF

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The asking price on Reynolds is reportedly very high. One of our Yankee fan members said they asked for Nestor Cortes, for example. I guess never say never, but it strikes me as unlikely that the Red Sox would pay a price like that, even if they had someone comparable to Cortes on the roster.

Kepler has been discussed here quite a bit, but I’m not sure if he is indeed available? Happy to be corrected about that if I’ve missed anything.

You already got upset when someone suggested you were talking about a situation where they trade Devers for a new RF, so I’m not sure what you were getting at with that? Also, saying “who knows who might be available later” is technically true but also always technically true?

Overall, I think given the way this off-season has gone where a lot of prominent players have already found new homes (via both free agency and trade), I think taking a look at who is still potentially available and then wondering if they’re worth acquiring is a worthy exercise. The original question deserved - arguably still deserves - more scrutiny. Pointing to the calendar doesn’t really move the discussion forwards.
Pertaining to Reynolds..His is a name that has been tossed about in these threads and I'm aware that the asking price is steep. IIRC the Pirates are asking for a Juan Soto like return. I don't think that anyone thinks that Reynolds is worth that price and the Pirates are likely to fall well short of that ask. Pertaining to Kepler... https://theathletic.com/3990551/2022/12/15/twins-max-kepler-trade/ As for Devers being traded for a RF... If he's moved I'm sure that it will be for the best package that the team is able to secure with an eye toward present and future needs. Is RF a need? Yes. Do I think he's going to be traded straight up for a RF? Most likely not. That doesn't mean that a RF can't be part of a package depending on who the interested party/parties might be. As for pointing to the calendar... when the question posed includes the phrase "at this point" I think it's more than fair to caution that we are still in December.
 

Rovin Romine

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Lets also not forget that Koji was literally third on the pecking order for closer for the 2013 season, and he only became the closer after Andrew Bailey and Joel Hanrahan failed in the closer role... (Koji was "named" closer on Jun 21st).....
They were both injured - not "failures." Which might seem like a semantic distinction, but it's not.
 

chawson

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Brian Reynolds doesn't excite me as he whiffed over 140 times. I don't want to see more guys like that after getting the Dalbec and Francy experience, plus he only had 19 doubles. Hard pass.
Reynolds' K rate last year is 23%, which is basically average for the league. It's better than the average MLB outfielder in 2022, who struck out 23.6% of the time.
 

GB5

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With regard to the Wong rumors, I believe it was cited as coming from Carrabis’ podcast.
 

The Mort Report

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Reynolds' K rate last year is 23%, which is basically average for the league. It's better than the average MLB outfielder in 2022, who struck out 23.6% of the time.
I would hope if we are trading our better prospects, as it’s been stated for him, it’s for someone not league average
 

The Mort Report

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His OPS the last two years is 912 and 806, so he is decidedly not average as a hitter.
I should have expanded, was waiting for the green line and quick replied when it showed. He’s not the kind of guy this team should be using high end prospects for. If we were a contender who had a hole in the OF then you consider it. For a team that needs a lot of upgrades all over the roster to even compete he is not worthy of the prospect cost. Sure he’s good, but we aren’t one decent player away, so we shouldn’t be burning prospects like that
 

DJnVa

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I would hope if we are trading our better prospects, as it’s been stated for him, it’s for someone not league average
Are you confusing him being league average in terms of strikeout % with his overall hitting skills? His career OPS+ is 127.