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glennhoffmania

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I think that what he was trying to say is that X has a pretty significant home road split and he's moving to a very hitter unfriendly park. And playing in that division is going to make X look a lot more pedestrian.
I understood the point. I just think it's meaningless. A lot of hitters, especially those whose home parks are hitter friendly, have home/road splits. Judge's home OPS is 103 points higher than his road OPS. Does that mean if he signed elsewhere he'd be a more pedestrian player? Or is it simply a matter of both the player's comfort and park effects?
 

jon abbey

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I understood the point. I just think it's meaningless. A lot of hitters, especially those whose home parks are hitter friendly, have home/road splits. Judge's home OPS is 103 points higher than his road OPS. Does that mean if he signed elsewhere he'd be a more pedestrian player? Or is it simply a matter of both the player's comfort and park effects?
Judge's splits are from earlier in his career mostly, this year he had a better OPS on the road (1.141) than at home (1.081).

I gave some Yankee examples too, when LeMahieu was a FA, most of his power the preceding couple of seasons had been at home, it benefitted both him and NY to re-sign him as he is a better hitter for NY than he'd be for any other team. I think this is true for Bogaerts also (him and BOS), one of the reasons why I think this will not end up well for SD. The main difference between LeMahieu and Bogaerts is that no one offered DJ an extra $120M to leave, because that would have been batshit crazy.
 

mr_smith02

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TokyoSox or someone else who knows about the Japanese market would know better, but could ownership’s concentration on Japanese players this cycle be to drive revenues in Japanese market? Are there some untapped revenues that they are trying to capture by signing star players?
I don't think you are too far off with this line of thinking. It feels a lot like this ownership is not really aiming for the fanbase that is here on SoSH these days.
 

nighthob

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I understood the point. I just think it's meaningless. A lot of hitters, especially those whose home parks are hitter friendly, have home/road splits. Judge's home OPS is 103 points higher than his road OPS. Does that mean if he signed elsewhere he'd be a more pedestrian player? Or is it simply a matter of both the player's comfort and park effects?
More precisely X is an OPS+ 114 hitter at home and 87 on the road. I hated to see him go, but there’s a ginormous difference between X and Judge as hitters.
 

snowmanny

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His total OPS+ was 131 last year. You are looking at his relative OPS+ (compared to himself); those two numbers always add up to 200.

edit- bRef has his splits relative to the league as 146 @ home, 126 on road. Obviously not near Judge though, who was 197 and 224.
 

ponch73

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I'm saying that Xander is a much better hitter in Fenway than he would be probably anywhere else, a .872 career OPS at home and a .758 on the road.
I could not agree with you more. While the Red Sox brain trust is hardly blameless (their P.R. chops and minor league prospect scouting both seem to leave much room for improvement), I don't think they were wrong to balk at paying the winter 2022 market rate for Xander. I think the deal Preller handed out (12th largest contract in MLB according to https://theanalyst.com/na/2022/12/the-highest-paid-major-league-baseball-players-and-largest-contracts-in-mlb-history/) only makes sense if (A) he (Preller) were cryogenically frozen for the past 3 years or (B) the Padres organization's in-house web browser does not support HTML (and therefore precludes the organization from accessing the "Splits" link on Baseball Reference).

Xander has consistently shown a significant home/road split throughout his career, especially in terms of slugging percentage where his Fenway stats goosed his overall numbers. In fact, 2018-2020 represents the only time period where he put up a road OPS above .800. And while Xander's on-base skills still remain robust and show less of a home/road gulf, his power definitely looks like it's peaked/regressed. It's hard to imagine that a move to the NL West will reverse this trend.

58747
 
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snowmanny

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The American League average OPS dropped from .731 in 2021 to .701 in 2022 so there’s a lot of noise in your stats.And the drop off is therefore overstated.
 

ponch73

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The American League average OPS dropped from .731 in 2021 to .701 in 2022 so there’s a lot of noise in your stats.And the drop off is therefore overstated.
Could not disagree more. 9+ years of home/road split data is surprisingly un-noisy (only Covid-shortened season of 2020 bucks the trend).

And your counter-argument -- which I presume is that Xander is not experiencing any power fall-off -- isn't really substantiated or persuasive to me. Xander's road OPS looks to be in line with the AL dropoff, but why did it drop off more at home in 2022? How much did the average OPS drop in Fenway in 2022? Did the AL average BABIP in 2022 also drop off in a similar fashion to OPS? If so, why did Xander's BABIP go up (well above his career norm) in 2022 while his OPS went down?

More importantly, why have Xander's numbers been trending down (regardless of at home or on the road) since 2019?

Finally, is this body of work sustainable going forward, and, if so, is it worth 11 years and $280 million?
 

ponch73

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chawson

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I can't tell if this is good news or bad news for the Red Sox.

Good news in the sense that the market rate for the next tier of free agent pitchers is more reasonable than expected or bad news in the sense that they massively overpaid for Yoshida and seemingly don't know what they're doing and/or are out of their depth?
How do we know they "massively overpaid" for Yoshida? Do we know that Steve Cohen or A.J. Preller wasn't offering $85M?

NPB to MLB projections are fuzzy, but why are you so certain it's an overpay if Yoshida's 50th-percentile projection is a .305/.372/.489 line (131 wRC+)?
 

DeadlySplitter

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How do we know they "massively overpaid" for Yoshida? Do we know that Steve Cohen or A.J. Preller wasn't offering $85M?

NPB to MLB projections are fuzzy, but why are you so certain it's an overpay if Yoshida's 50th-percentile projection is a .305/.372/.489 line (131 wRC+)?
Boras wrapping up negotiations for Yoshida less than a day into the 30-day posting period suggests we made a pretty crazy offer.

Most teams must think that projection is wildly optimistic - ZiPS isn't a end-all be-all. And who knows about the defensive projections.
 

ponch73

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How do we know they "massively overpaid" for Yoshida? Do we know that Steve Cohen or A.J. Preller wasn't offering $85M?

NPB to MLB projections are fuzzy, but why are you so certain it's an overpay if Yoshida's 50th-percentile projection is a .305/.372/.489 line (131 wRC+)?
I'm going to go on record as saying that 50th-percentile projection is horsesh!t. I'll happily eat crow if I'm proven wrong. There's little margin for error with Yoshida since he's a defensive liability and there's some concern that the move from NPB to MLB will cause a noteworthy dropoff in his numbers just like it did with Seiya Suzuki.

The evidence for a massive overpay comes from recent press reports (Globe article where other GM's said that Boston overpaid by 50%) and basic logic:

A. Senga was a more highly-regarded player than Yoshida
B. Senga signed for ~20% less than Yoshida
C. Yoshida is overpaid
 

Blizzard of 1978

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The Truth was not telling the truth. Second time I had my hopes up in the last few days. The other was red sox beat reporters said Bogie negotiations had momentum.
I am taking a Christmas/Holidays long break. Unless Swanson or Rodon sign. They I be back then, If not have a Happy Holidays and see you all back after New Years.
 

ponch73

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chawson

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I'm going to go on record as saying that 50th-percentile projection is horsesh!t. I'll happily eat crow if I'm proven wrong. There's little margin for error with Yoshida since he's a defensive liability and there's some concern that the move from NPB to MLB will cause a noteworthy dropoff in his numbers just like it did with Seiya Suzuki.

The evidence for a massive overpay comes from recent press reports (Globe article where other GM's said that Boston overpaid by 50%) and basic logic:

A. Senga was a more highly-regarded player than Yoshida
B. Senga signed for ~20% less than Yoshida
C. Yoshida is overpaid
Well, there's overpay relative to the production and overpay relative to other teams' bids, which we also don't know much about. I think the Sox identified what he was worth to them (playing in Fenway seems apt for Yoshida's swing) and wanted to get it done quickly, because they rather desperately needed an outfielder, Nimmo wasn't a good fit (signed to be CF, bad Fenway swing) and Benintendi is (likely) not an option.

Or we could just get mad at every possible thing.
 

E5 Yaz

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If this rumor is true about the Red Sox offer being a lower AAV than the Mets offer, Occam's Razor could apply. Senga might not have put much value on the extra 2 years and $20 million that the Red Sox were allegedly offering.
What's more likely ... that, or the rumor spreader being full of shit?
 

ponch73

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Well, there's overpay relative to the production and overpay relative to other teams' bids, which we also don't know much about. I think the Sox identified what he was worth to them (playing in Fenway seems apt for Yoshida's swing) and wanted to get it done quickly, because they rather desperately needed an outfielder, Nimmo wasn't a good fit (signed to be CF, bad Fenway swing) and Benintendi is (likely) not an option.

Or we could just get mad at every possible thing.
This is a message board where we all get to speculate and express our opinions, favorable or unfavorable, on a variety of topics including but not limited to the performance of the Red Sox front office. Nowhere in my posts did I say that I was mad or express anger. I simply don't think that highly of the Yoshida deal terms. If you want to thread police posts where someone disagrees with your take or don't want to read any unfavorable views of the Red Sox front office, you should feel free to just ignore my posts and/or find another message board.
 

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Well, there's overpay relative to the production and overpay relative to other teams' bids, which we also don't know much about. I think the Sox identified what he was worth to them (playing in Fenway seems apt for Yoshida's swing) and wanted to get it done quickly, because they rather desperately needed an outfielder, Nimmo wasn't a good fit (signed to be CF, bad Fenway swing) and Benintendi is (likely) not an option.

Or we could just get mad at every possible thing.
Some people here long for the days of Dombrowski, because he'd identify who he wanted and go out and get him. That's what Bloom did with Yoshida. In keeping with the theme of almost every thread on the board, who gives a crap if it's above some projected value. If that's his target, go out and get him. It's only money.
 

TimScribble

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I do want to note that I like the signing of Yoshida. I was merely pointing out that Senga was projected to land a larger contract.
 

chawson

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This is a message board where we all get to speculate and express our opinions, favorable or unfavorable, on a variety of topics including but not limited to the performance of the Red Sox front office. Nowhere in my posts did I say that I was mad or express anger. I simply don't think that highly of the Yoshida deal terms. If you want to thread police posts where someone disagrees with your take or don't want to read any unfavorable views of the Red Sox front office, you should feel free to just ignore my posts and/or probably find another message board.
Okay, sure - sorry to strike a nerve. What I'm specifically responding to is you citing a "massive overpay" for Yoshida as evidence that, in your words, "seemingly don't know what they're doing" and/or are out of their depth."

I think you have to selectively ignore some pretty reasonable stuff to arrive there. I get that losing Bogaerts has frustrated a lot of people into a weird kind of collective anger and grief. Those feelings are also pretty easy for people to capitalize on, and it has pushed a lot of regular and social media channels into cynical, uncharitable reads of Bloom and the front office. A lot of those uncharitable reads have been translated into clickbait tweets and articles and other pile-ons, etc., because that's how the internet works. I'm not trying to thread police, but I am trying to push back on this avalanche of cynicism. It sucks, and more importantly, it doesn't contribute to an atmosphere that players want to play in, which doesn't help the team get better.

I genuinely don't know why, two days after signing a pretty interesting player in Yoshida, someone (let alone the Boston media) would conclude that it is a "massive overpay" in an absurdly unpredictable and wildly inflationary market when we desperately need an outfielder, why they would even care that it is, or why they would cite that as a reason to determine that the front office is out of their depth. In my eyes, there are too many unknowns involved for me to confidently say something like that. If you want to say it, you're certainly entitled to on this message board! But to me, it reads like you're upset to the point of suspending reasonable information and I think that sort of thing ultimately doesn't help.
 

ponch73

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Okay, sure - sorry to strike a nerve. What I'm specifically responding to is you citing a "massive overpay" for Yoshida as evidence that, in your words, "seemingly don't know what they're doing" and/or are out of their depth."

I think you have to selectively ignore some pretty reasonable stuff to arrive there. I get that losing Bogaerts has frustrated a lot of people into a weird kind of collective anger and grief. Those feelings are also pretty easy for people to capitalize on, and it has pushed a lot of regular and social media channels into cynical, uncharitable reads of Bloom and the front office. A lot of those uncharitable reads have been translated into clickbait tweets and articles and other pile-ons, etc., because that's how the internet works. I'm not trying to thread police, but I am trying to push back on this avalanche of cynicism. It sucks, and more importantly, it doesn't contribute to an atmosphere that players want to play in, which doesn't help the team get better.

I genuinely don't know why, two days after signing a pretty interesting player in Yoshida, someone (let alone the Boston media) would conclude that it is a "massive overpay" in an absurdly unpredictable and wildly inflationary market when we desperately need an outfielder, why they would care that it is, and why they would cite that as a reason to determine that the front office is out of their depth. In my eyes, there are too many unknowns involved for me to confidently say something like that. If you want to say it, you're certainly entitled to on this message board! But to me, it reads like you're upset to the point of suspending reasonable information and I think that sort of thing ultimately doesn't help.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I've posted upthread supporting the decision to not re-sign Bogaerts based on his steep home/road splits and declining production so the "collective anger and grief" and "cynical, uncharitable reads of Bloom and the front office" don't apply to me. I'm in the minority, but I'd be fine letting Bogaerts and Devers both walk because I don't like the risk/reward profile on their free agent contracts especially considering their defensive profiles. I feel the same way about Yoshida's contract. I also don't believe that an "avalanche of cynicism" on a Red Sox message board has much of any bearing on the players.

It's fine that you find the Yoshida signing to be "pretty interesting," but it might be worth being open to other perspectives. I just posted on the Yoshida thread that ZiPS overestimated Seiya Suzuki's numbers last year and would be genuinely curious to understand why it isn't doing the same with Yoshida. If you normalize the ZiPS Yoshida projection for last season's overestimation of Suzuki, you get a 50th percentile OPS similar to Kike's 2021 numbers. But Kike is an good-to-excellent center fielder. Some reports (Keith Law's, for example) suggest that Yoshida is a defensive liability who needs to be hidden in Fenway's LF or slotted in at DH. So, you're getting a 2 WAR player (inclusive of defense) for a 5 year commitment at an $18 million AAV. But Kike just re-signed for a 1 year commitment at a $10 million AAV.

And there seems to be much more downside risk to Yoshida than Kike. Kike is a known commodity who has an extended track record of facing MLB pitching. Yoshida does not. How can we be sure that his diminutive stature and lack of exposure to MLB caliber pitching doesn't depress his offensive profile? And shouldn't that downside risk have been reflected in both the AAV and duration of his contract?

Lastly, my post didn't definitively say that Yoshida's contract was a massive overpay (although I'm worried it might be). It said that I wasn't sure whether to consider Senga's contract as a positive for the Red Sox (in the ability to acquire a starter less expensively) or a negative (in that it could be inferred as evidence of a massive overpay). And, frankly, other posters have had that same reaction to the Senga deal on this thread and the MLB Offseason Senga thread (I'd recommend reading @radsoxfan 's posts). So, perhaps it's worth weighing the evidence and reconsidering the possibility that the Red Sox F.O. isn't infallible.
 
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ponch73

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It's fine that you find the Yoshida signing to be "pretty interesting," but it might be worth being open to other perspectives. I just posted on the Yoshida thread that ZiPS overestimated Seiya Suzuki's numbers last year and would be genuinely curious to understand why it isn't doing the same with Yoshida. If you normalize the ZiPS Yoshida projection for last season's overestimation of Suzuki, you get a 50th percentile OPS similar to Kike's 2021 numbers. But Kike is an good-to-excellent center fielder. Some reports (Keith Law's, for example) suggest that Yoshida is a defensive liability who needs to be hidden in Fenway's LF or slotted in at DH. So, you're getting a 2 WAR player (inclusive of defense) for a 5 year commitment at an $18 million AAV. But Kike just re-signed for a 1 year commitment at a $10 million AAV.

And there seems to be much more downside risk to Yoshida than Kike. Kike is a known commodity who has an extended track record of facing MLB pitching. Yoshida does not. How can we be sure that his diminutive stature and lack of exposure to MLB caliber pitching doesn't depress his offensive profile? And shouldn't that downside risk have been reflected in both the AAV and duration of his contract?

Lastly, my post didn't definitively say that Yoshida's contract was a massive overpay (although I'm worried it might be). It said that I wasn't sure whether to consider Senga's contract as a positive for the Red Sox (in the ability to acquire a starter less expensively) or a negative (in that it could be inferred as evidence of a massive overpay). And, frankly, other posters have had that same reaction to the Senga deal on this thread and the MLB Offseason Senga thread (I'd recommend reading @radsoxfan 's posts). So, perhaps it's worth weighing the evidence and reconsidering the possibility that the Red Sox F.O. isn't infallible.
In the spirit of being open-minded, it looks like the Red Sox view Seiya Suzuki as a reasonable comp for Yoshida since they both received similar contracts -- 5/$85 mil vs 5/$90 mil. And Suzuki's 2022 stat-line might have been artificially depressed by random, untimely injuries -- he apparently started and ended the season hot and could have otherwise matched the ZiPS projection. And that projection would have yielded a 3-4 WAR player, thereby justifying the contract.
 

Mugsy's Jock

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Please don’t make this season irrelevant. Guys like me have lived through
more of those than we want to remember. Give the team a fighting chance
to compete!
World Champs in 2018. A game away from the World Series in 2021.

Were you born in November 2021?
 

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If this rumor is true about the Red Sox offer being a lower AAV than the Mets offer, Occam's Razor could apply. Senga might not have put much value on the extra 2 years and $20 million that the Red Sox were allegedly offering. And that's before any consideration for the opt-out after year 3 in the Mets deal.
Has Bloom signed anyone to a contract including an opt out? He does seem to value as much team control/ flexibility as he can maintain: Story’s contract is a straight up $/years, no opt outs, no NTC. We know we’ve lost out on some of the short 1 year deals for reclamation project pitchers because he wanted a team option for a second year.

It might also be a reason for some of the perceived overpay in Yoshida’s deal.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Has Bloom signed anyone to a contract including an opt out? He does seem to value as much team control/ flexibility as he can maintain: Story’s contract is a straight up $/years, no opt outs, no NTC. We know we’ve lost out on some of the short 1 year deals for reclamation project pitchers because he wanted a team option for a second year.

It might also be a reason for some of the perceived overpay in Yoshida’s deal.
Arguably the closest he's come to a contract with an opt-out is Paxton. It's all semantics with a deal that short, but it was effectively a 2/$10M deal with an opt-out after one, and Paxton chose to stay.
 

mikcou

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Has Bloom signed anyone to a contract including an opt out? He does seem to value as much team control/ flexibility as he can maintain: Story’s contract is a straight up $/years, no opt outs, no NTC. We know we’ve lost out on some of the short 1 year deals for reclamation project pitchers because he wanted a team option for a second year.

It might also be a reason for some of the perceived overpay in Yoshida’s deal.
Story has an opt out after 2025 that the Sox can cancel by picking up a 7th year for $25M ($20M incremental over a $5M buyout). Not quite the full upside to price to market, but it does add another $20M guaranteed to the deal to not allow him to exercise.