Red Sox penalties for "Spygate"

snowmanny

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I am pretty confident that Alex Cora will have a managerial job somewhere the season after the next season.
 

Teachdad46

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I don't get it yet. Presumably some players were in cahoots with Watkins. Do they have an agreement with the players association not to name the players?
I'm concluding that the players who benefitted from Watkins illegal sleuthing would not necessarily have known that the benefit came as a result of its illegal nature? His role allowed him to help break down the opposing team's signs so getting info from him was a normal thing to do? Or am I being naive here..?
 

BaseballJones

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Seems like what happened was that the video guy did a bunch of legal video scouting, which included deciphering sign patterns. But then on occasion watched video in real time to see if their opponent was using the same patterns. If they were, he let a few players know what sign patterns they were using, so that when they got to second base, they could relay that to hitters.

The players may not have had any idea that the information given them was done in real time against the rules.
 

Teachdad46

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Seems like what happened was that the video guy did a bunch of legal video scouting, which included deciphering sign patterns. But then on occasion watched video in real time to see if their opponent was using the same patterns. If they were, he let a few players know what sign patterns they were using, so that when they got to second base, they could relay that to hitters.

The players may not have had any idea that the information given them was done in real time against the rules.
Exactly what I was trying to suggest in my above reply, but was too incoherent to make clear..
 

Beale13

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Seems like what happened was that the video guy did a bunch of legal video scouting, which included deciphering sign patterns. But then on occasion watched video in real time to see if their opponent was using the same patterns. If they were, he let a few players know what sign patterns they were using, so that when they got to second base, they could relay that to hitters.

The players may not have had any idea that the information given them was done in real time against the rules.
Is it common to have your advance scout tasked with decoding opposing catcher's signals also be your in-game video replay analyst? It's ridiculous to have such an employee sitting there knowing a key piece of information about the opposition during a game and then prohibit him from sharing it with the rest of the team he is paid to try to help win. Even Manfred acknowledged that this put Watkins in a tough position.
 

cornwalls@6

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And on the other end of the spectrum.............. I read this guy's stuff somewhat regularly, and have not found him to be a Red Sox pom-pom waiver. While this is probably a bit too much of a touchdown dance, I still think it's much closer to the truth than what SI, CBS, and tired old hacks like Shank and Buckley are peddling.

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/04/boston-red-sox-vindicated-by-sign-stealing-report-which-proved-players-owners-were-right-by-boldly-proclaiming-innocence-for-months-chris-cotillo.html
 

Average Reds

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Is it common to have your advance scout tasked with decoding opposing catcher's signals also be your in-game video replay analyst? It's ridiculous to have such an employee sitting there knowing a key piece of information about the opposition during a game and then prohibit him from sharing it with the rest of the team he is paid to try to help win. Even Manfred acknowledged that this put Watkins in a tough position.
Having the replay room next to the dugout manned by the same guy who decodes opposing team signals is tantamount to placing a physician in the clubhouse with syringes loaded with testosterone and then telling players that while the honor system applies, "only legitimate therapeutic use of steroids" are allowed

IMO, there's no way every team wasn't abusing the replay room. Which (again, IMO) is precisely why they couldn't come down hard on the Sox.
 

Van Everyman

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I see Rosenthal is tweeting that Evan Drellich says there are still “questions” about the report. Anyone with an Athletic subscription care to summaraize?
 

jon abbey

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I said from the start of this (pre-Astros punishment) that I don’t care much about punishment but man, I wish I knew exactly what Cora was talking about at that press conference in London when he called out Beltran.
 

bankshot1

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Really? Take a wild guess.

Here's my wild guess. MLB never wanted to investigate anyone but had to. so they came down hard on the Astros and half-heartedly slapped the Sox on the wrist and want this to end there. If they came down hard on the Sox, there might be some complaints and more rumors/leaks, and then people might ask questions, as you did, or more specically, what special knowledge did Cashman want Beltran to impart to the Yankees. And they might want answers to those questions. MLB wanted to bury this ASAP.
 

lexrageorge

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My assumption has been that what the Red Sox did in 2018 was probably not atypical among MLB teams, and I've been skeptical all along at the reporting from the Athletic on this (hey, they deserve the mulligan). Players have been trying to decipher signs since forever, and a replay monitor in a room next to the dugout is like leaving a pile of milk bones next to a dog. Houston crossed a line with the center field camera and real time trash can banging and got rightfully hammered for it, but every team probably has a similar skeleton to Boston's in their closet.

I think we can safely assume that Manfred probably had his "Seriously protesters?" moment when he heard the allegations and dug into what actually happened. However, he had to ensure that all he got all the i's crossed and t's dotted after coming down hard on Houston and after warning the Red Sox specifically after the Fitbit nonsense. So, yes, Manfred had every reason to bury this one.

The Red Sox are truly on triple-secret probation, so they cannot afford any further missteps.
 

jon abbey

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Really? Take a wild guess.

Here's my wild guess. MLB never wanted to investigate anyone but had to. so they came down hard on the Astros and half-heartedly slapped the Sox on the wrist and want this to end there. If they came down hard on the Sox, there might be some complaints and more rumors/leaks, and then people might ask questions, as you did, or more specically, what special knowledge did Cashman want Beltran to impart to the Yankees. And they might want answers to those questions. MLB wanted to bury this ASAP.
Sure, but I don't care about any of that. I am curious as to what was actually going on but mostly I would like electronic communication between the catcher and pitcher ASAP so we can eliminate the ridiculous sign-stealing component (legal and not legal both) that slows down the game for no reason.
 

amRadio

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I agree with bankshot1. I figured after the 2017 "Apple Watch" situation that the Sox would be smart enough to stay away from using any technology to signal a hitter about an upcoming pitch. If I had to guess, that was the more severe scheme. I think if real details came out about what the Sox and Yankees were doing at the end of that season it would look as bad or worse than the Astros. MLB wants this over and probably figured if the Sox felt wronged in this investigation there could be leaks and accusations made toward other teams. There's about a 0.00% chance, in my opinion, that the Astros were the only team with such a scheme in place. Tape an Apple Watch under your jersey and it would make a pretty good buzzer if they had the other teams signs.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I see Rosenthal is tweeting that Evan Drellich says there are still “questions” about the report. Anyone with an Athletic subscription care to summaraize?
Don't have a sub so I can't read the articles either, but should it be a surprise at all that the reporter(s) that broke the story in the first place have questions about a report that essentially says their big scoop was more or less a nothing burger?
 

JimD

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I see Rosenthal is tweeting that Evan Drellich says there are still “questions” about the report. Anyone with an Athletic subscription care to summaraize?
Questions from sportswriters, not MLB:

Why were comparable employees in the Astros and Red Sox organizations handled differently? (Hoston's Excel wizard Tom Koch-Weser received no suspension and remains employed by the team)
Why wouldn’t the manager and other staffers be aware of what was going on?
Why was Red Sox management not held responsible?
Why should the Red Sox be credited for attempting to instill a culture of compliance when the team’s players did not understand the rules?
Are Red Sox players and staff comfortable with Watkins taking all the heat?
How much responsibility should MLB bear for an environment that was conducive to cheating?
 

BornToRun

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Yup. Haters gonna hate. Some other fans will keep chirping but that's every sports story ever. Time to move on.
Screw ‘em. The Sox rolled through a stop sign while Houston barreled down the sidewalk and ran down a family of four. We got a slap on the wrist because that’s all that was warranted.
 

BornToRun

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"Along with others" and "collective conduct" of the Astros.
Sounds like Alex thinks he's getting more blame for what down in Houston then he should have?
Am I A conspiracy nut because I think it’s kind of funny how the one guy who got thrown under the bus as the ringleader in Houston just so happened to be the guy who wasn’t the there any longer? Especially now that he’s been cleared of any wrongdoing as far the Sox go?
 

lexrageorge

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Questions from sportswriters, not MLB:

Why were comparable employees in the Astros and Red Sox organizations handled differently? (Hoston's Excel wizard Tom Koch-Weser received no suspension and remains employed by the team)
Why wouldn’t the manager and other staffers be aware of what was going on?
Why was Red Sox management not held responsible?
Why should the Red Sox be credited for attempting to instill a culture of compliance when the team’s players did not understand the rules?
Are Red Sox players and staff comfortable with Watkins taking all the heat?
How much responsibility should MLB bear for an environment that was conducive to cheating?
Honestly, if these folks cannot distinguish the difference between what Houston did and what happened in Boston, they are essentially unreachable. Faux outrage is hilarious in circumstances such as this.
 

cornwalls@6

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Interesting comments from Kennedy. Surprised they’re not taking an unconditional, “Ron is our Manager, period” stance. Even if they don’t really feel that way privately. Seems like the door is open for Cora to return in 2021. Although other than an apology tour, I’m not sure what “rehabilitation” means for something like this.

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/04/alex-cora-red-sox-reunion-sam-kennedy-says-club-will-talk-about-it-down-the-road-when-asked-if-2021-return-is-possible-for-former-manager.html
 

JimD

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It's pretty clear what ownership's and Kennedy's feelings are about Cora. Hopefully they give Bloom complete authority to pick who *he* believes is the right man for the job.
 

lexrageorge

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The Sox brass has to walk a fine line. It's obvious that everyone likes Cora. They are probably disappointed that he involved himself in the shenanigans in Houston and as a result forced them to both deal with the PR fallout and also scramble to find a manager at the last minute. They don't want to do anything that undermines Roenicke, as he is basically taking one for team. They need to make sure Bloom is empowered to make his own decisions. All the while dealing with a very uncertain future for the season, while trying to be sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of people right now either battling the virus or struggling financially.

They statements that members of the ownership team make are going to be imperfect and incomplete. Parsing a single sentence out of a longer statement is unlikely to reveal anything useful at this point. "We'll see" is going to be the course for the foreseeable future.
 

Shaky Walton

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The Sox brass has to walk a fine line. It's obvious that everyone likes Cora. They are probably disappointed that he involved himself in the shenanigans in Houston and as a result forced them to both deal with the PR fallout and also scramble to find a manager at the last minute. They don't want to do anything that undermines Roenicke, as he is basically taking one for team. They need to make sure Bloom is empowered to make his own decisions. All the while dealing with a very uncertain future for the season, while trying to be sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of people right now either battling the virus or struggling financially.

They statements that members of the ownership team make are going to be imperfect and incomplete. Parsing a single sentence out of a longer statement is unlikely to reveal anything useful at this point. "We'll see" is going to be the course for the foreseeable future.
This is exactly right. Even if they really want to bring back Cora, and actually intend to do so, there would only be downside if they said that, or even intimated that, now. It's possible that they have winked at Cora and he's sitting tight. I'm guessing it's an unstated understanding that they will deal with this later,
 

nvalvo

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It is important to be fair to Roenicke, who is both well-qualified and has played a tough PR hand very well since the unexpected vacancy.

It's also important to remember that Chaim Bloom probably would like a chance to choose his manager. Maybe he's a big Cora fan, too — why wouldn't he be? — but I suspect he has his own ideas and preferences, and given how shambolically everything has gone (through no fault of his) since he's been brought on, I think he deserves to have a lot of influence over that decision going forward.
 

terrynever

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jon abbey

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I think Cora’s context was ridiculously high-scoring games for both teams. We were blaming the ballpark, air travel, tired pitchers, and Cora brought his own perspective. Those two games were not normal baseball.
There is no way that is what he was talking about, he was talking about a very specific kind of sign stealing involving 'devices' and he was frustrated because he believed that Beltran either got in the way of whatever Boston was doing, helped NY to do something themselves, or both.

Managers don't care if games are high-scoring, Cora was frustrated because his team had just been beaten twice and was down 6-1 in the season series to NY at that point and he was frustrated enough that he said some things in that press conference that I'm guessing he regretted saying very quickly.
 

ookami7m

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The biggest loss will be replay operator JT Watkins, I'm gonna miss that guy

Can we now call the the JT Watkins Affair?
I prefer the title of this week's Effectively Wild podcast - Dirty Watkins. No someone just has to rewrite a few lyrics to close the loop.
 

section15

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At least - they didn't touch the 2021 picks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Red Sox were to go after Mookie Betts, assuming he's going to free agency in Novermber -- all it would cost them (besides the money) is their first round pick in 2021?
 

jon abbey

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At least - they didn't touch the 2021 picks. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the Red Sox were to go after Mookie Betts, assuming he's going to free agency in Novermber -- all it would cost them (besides the money) is their first round pick in 2021?
These rules are confusing now and very team-specific, but NY lost a 2nd rounder and a 5th rounder for signing Cole. I believe you can't lose a first round pick anymore.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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These rules are confusing now and very team-specific, but NY lost a 2nd rounder and a 5th rounder for signing Cole. I believe you can't lose a first round pick anymore.
I thought that the signing team loses a 1st rounder but the old team doesn't get it, instead they get a sandwich pick. But now I'm confused because you're correct on the Yankees losing a 2nd and I can't see why that would be. It used to be top 15, right? Did it change to something to do with luxury cap and the Yankees reset?
 

edoug

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I thought that the signing team loses a 1st rounder but the old team doesn't get it, instead they get a sandwich pick. But now I'm confused because you're correct on the Yankees losing a 2nd and I can't see why that would be. It used to be top 15, right? Did it change to something to do with luxury cap and the Yankees reset?
https://legacy.baseballprospectus.com/compensation/cots/league-info/cba-history/
Term: 2017 – December, 2021

Free Agency
: Existing compensation rules for clubs losing a free agent remain in place for 2016-17 off-season. For the 2017-18 off-season and beyond, new rules will apply for clubs signing free agents who have received Qualifying Offers: 1) a club receiving revenue sharing money will forfeit its third highest remaining selection in the June Rule 4 draft, 2) a club paying the Competitive Balance Tax (“luxury” tax) forfeits its second and fifth highest remaining selections and has its international signing bonus pool reduced by $1 million for the next full signing period, 3) all other clubs forfeit their second-highest remaining draft selection and have their international bonus pool reduced by $500,000. For a club losing a free agent who rejected a Qualifying Offer: 1) a club receiving revenue sharing money will receive a draft pick immediately after the first round if the player signs a contract with a total guarantee of $50 million or more, 2) a club paying the Competitive Balance Tax receives a draft pick after the fourth round, and 3) all other clubs receive a draft pick after the Competitive Balance Round B.
 

staz

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Interesting comments from Kennedy. Surprised they’re not taking an unconditional, “Ron is our Manager, period” stance. Even if they don’t really feel that way privately. Seems like the door is open for Cora to return in 2021. Although other than an apology tour, I’m not sure what “rehabilitation” means for something like this.

https://www.masslive.com/redsox/2020/04/alex-cora-red-sox-reunion-sam-kennedy-says-club-will-talk-about-it-down-the-road-when-asked-if-2021-return-is-possible-for-former-manager.html
There is no way Ron Roenicke is the 2021 manager if the guy that recently won you 108 and a title is available. No way. "We'll talk about it down the road" is corporate PC code for "Absolutely, 100%"
 

cornwalls@6

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There is no way Ron Roenicke is the 2021 manager if the guy that recently won you 108 and a title is available. No way. "We'll talk about it down the road" is corporate PC code for "Absolutely, 100%"
I think so too. Unlike others, I do not think it was an innocuous, CYA, throw way comment. And Bloom took the GM job with presumably full understanding and acceptance of Cora being the manager, before any of this hit the fan. I don’t think ownership wanting to bring him back would represent an undercutting of his autonomy.