Red Sox in season discussion

Daniel_Son

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Didn't see it posted anywhere on the main board. Baltimore overtook us with tonight's loss. Sole possession of last place in the AL East and a .500 record.

This sucks.
 

IpswichSox

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How'd we be doing absent freak injuries?

I don't remember people being this bitter in 2006.
Yeah there's s lot of knee-jerk, CHB-like snarkiness going on here that sometimes is beneath main board-level discussion, or should be IMO. I've mostly discounted it as frustration over a super -frustrating season.

It's totally legitimate to be critical of Chaim for betting wrong on 1B, not getting a closer going into the season or seemingly botching the Bogaerts offer this spring. But no front office can prepare for nearly half the roster going on the IL.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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At least personally, a large part of the frustration is that the Sox are getting epically horrible production at a few positions, that should be fairly easy to upgrade, yet have done nothing to address it. Most nights, the product on the field has been fairly embarrassing to watch.

Add in the melancholy feelings of watching many of the teams best players likely in their last days with the team, and the increasing possibility that the team will be worse in the coming years, and yeah, it’s not exactly fun.

It’s also the way the team is playing; sure they’ve had injuries (as have many other teams) but they are playing sloppy, uninspired, non competitive baseball with lousy fundamentals, numerous mental mistakes, etc etc.

Add in the unforced errors (the not able to go to Toronto stuff), the lack of apparent X/Devers negotiations) and it hardly feels like a fun team with good vibes.

And fans were angry / disappointed in ‘06 too.
 

Cesar Crespo

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At least personally, a large part of the frustration is that the Sox are getting epically horrible production at a few positions, that should be fairly easy to upgrade, yet have done nothing to address it. Most nights, the product on the field has been fairly embarrassing to watch.

Add in the melancholy feelings of watching many of the teams best players likely in their last days with the team, and the increasing possibility that the team will be worse in the coming years, and yeah, it’s not exactly fun.

It’s also the way the team is playing; sure they’ve had injuries (as have many other teams) but they are playing sloppy, uninspired, non competitive baseball with lousy fundamentals, numerous mental mistakes, etc etc.

Add in the unforced errors (the not able to go to Toronto stuff), the lack of apparent X/Devers negotiations) and it hardly feels like a fun team with good vibes.

And fans were angry / disappointed in ‘06 too.
So why do you continue to watch if it's so unenjoyable? Hate watching?

If you hate a product and continue to support that product, it's not going to change.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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So why do you continue to watch if it's so unenjoyable? Hate watching?

If you hate a product and continue to support that product, it's not going to change.
Where did I say I “hate the product”? I love baseball and the Sox; lousy baseball is still better than no baseball; and whether I watch or not has no impact on how the team plays, sadly.

Are there folks here that are loving the way they’ve been playing lately?
 

Rovin Romine

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So why do you continue to watch if it's so unenjoyable? Hate watching?

If you hate a product and continue to support that product, it's not going to change.
Moreover, the constant harping on the same issues makes the experience far less enjoyable for the rest of us.

I mean, I'd say it's some kind of coping mechanism or something, but there's no frighting truth to be shielded from. Or at least I don't think so. The team was built to be competitive, but not an overwhelming all-star monster of a club. Because that can't be done every year. Is that the frightening truth? My gut says no, because no one, with perhaps the exception of a few late 90s Yankees fans, went there. No one can predict specific injuries and poor performance. Hmm. Maybe that's it. A fundamental anxiety about human mortality and fallibility? The desire for surrogate-parent figures to fix a cherished toy that can be played with in a never-ending childhood of halcyon summer-vacation days? Well, if anyone needs it, I can refer folks to a few professionals who can help, and some wise 12 year-olds who have figured out how not to sweat incidental ups and downs.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Where did I say I “hate the product”? I love baseball and the Sox; lousy baseball is still better than no baseball; and whether I watch or not has no impact on how the team plays, sadly.

Are there folks here that are loving the way they’ve been playing lately?
No one is loving the way they are playing right now but if someone is getting literally no enjoyment out of watching the Boston Red Sox and/or it's actually making their mood worse...
They shouldn't be watching.

SJH is not enjoying himself watching Red Sox games. If he is, he is putting on a huge performance act on SoSH.

edit: And as RR said, it gets tiresome reading the same people complain about the same thing over and over and over.
 

sezwho

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At least personally, a large part of the frustration is that the Sox are getting epically horrible production at a few positions, that should be fairly easy to upgrade, yet have done nothing to address it. Most nights, the product on the field has been fairly embarrassing to watch.
….
Yup, exactly.

I’m not going to say it’s regularly embarrassing on field (occasional fups happen) but I’m beyond frustrated watching the last two years of 1st base, and right field production is just sad.

I’m sure Chaim would like to win this season, and was happy to get hot last season too, but he wants even more to strip it down and rebuild in his image. Down the road he’s hoping there aren’t tough win now/win later decisions because you can eventually do both with a mature farm and $: see Dodgers.

There is a part of me that’s become so jaded with the season that I wonder if 1st was intentionally left blank (with honorable mention to RF) to ensure no one was tempted to invest in this season and thus delay the plan.

Id love to know what Bloom would say, given truth serum, if asked when they would be ready to compete with great teams and think more of the present than future.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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How'd we be doing absent freak injuries?

I don't remember people being this bitter in 2006.
They didn't finish last in 2006.

They've spent more than $200 million to be in last place in the division. This isn't all about the injuries either. The defense is horrendous, the team is very creakily constructed, they've got nothing out of several key positions and nothing's been done to address any of it.

As far as the "if you don't like them don't watch" arguments, those are pretty much the equivalent of "love it or leave it." People here have gone six million miles out of their way to defend Bloom's team building yet the team stinks. And we are staring down the prospect of trading away our two best players. There's a lot of frustration and it's completely warranted.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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They haven't finished last in 2022.
Tell me the truth: do you really think this team is a good one this year, one that can compete in the playoffs?

On a macro level, sure they can extricate themselves out of last place. But falling into it after last night's game kind of sums up how poorly the year has gone and how badly they've been playing this month and for long stretches this year. Our younger players who've gotten playing time haven't taken big steps forward either.
 

BaseballJones

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The Sox are only 3.5 games out of a playoff spot, despite their horrific play. The real problem is that they won't be getting any help from Sale (which I was expecting, so that's a huge letdown), and Devers is out for a little bit still, and most importantly, they have to leapfrog 4 teams in order to claim that last WC spot. Not THAT long ago they had the #1 WC position by a couple of games' margin, and they've fallen quite far back with a bunch of other teams slipping in there.

So their playoff chances are much, much lower than they were not long ago. AND they won't be getting the internal help they were counting on. Also, in that vein, I was really expecting Bello to come in and help and he's come in and been a disaster. I don't think this is any sign that he will fail in his career, but for THIS year he's been most unhelpful:

4.0 ip, 6 h, 4 r, 4 er, 3 bb, 2 k (L, 7-1)
4.0 ip, 7 h, 5 r, 5 er, 3 bb, 5 k (L, 10-5)
4.0 ip, 9 h, 5 r, 5 er, 2 bb, 2 k (L, 8-4)

12.0 ip, 22 h, 14 r, 14 er, 8 bb, 9 k, 10.50 era, 2.50 whip, 6.8 k/9, team is 0-3 in his appearances
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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The Sox are only 3.5 games out of a playoff spot, despite their horrific play. The real problem is that they won't be getting any help from Sale (which I was expecting, so that's a huge letdown), and Devers is out for a little bit still, and most importantly, they have to leapfrog 4 teams in order to claim that last WC spot. Not THAT long ago they had the #1 WC position by a couple of games' margin, and they've fallen quite far back with a bunch of other teams slipping in there.

So their playoff chances are much, much lower than they were not long ago. AND they won't be getting the internal help they were counting on. Also, in that vein, I was really expecting Bello to come in and help and he's come in and been a disaster. I don't think this is any sign that he will fail in his career, but for THIS year he's been most unhelpful:

4.0 ip, 6 h, 4 r, 4 er, 3 bb, 2 k (L, 7-1)
4.0 ip, 7 h, 5 r, 5 er, 3 bb, 5 k (L, 10-5)
4.0 ip, 9 h, 5 r, 5 er, 2 bb, 2 k (L, 8-4)

12.0 ip, 22 h, 14 r, 14 er, 8 bb, 9 k, 10.50 era, 2.50 whip, 6.8 k/9, team is 0-3 in his appearances
I think this is a good summary. The young players who have been given a chance in the wake of all the injuries have unfortunately been unable to contribute in any positive way. Bello doesn't appear to be ready; that's not a character flaw but at the same time it's pretty lousy timing.

Similarly Duran has gotten all of the playing time with Kike on the IL and yet hasn't really been all that good, he's been getting vastly outplayed by Resnyder who is 31 and no prospect. Franchy and Dalbec aren't contributing either.

It's getting squeezed both top and bottom.
 

joe dokes

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Despite the lousy production at two positions, the team was doing pretty well until a torrent of injuries. To be sure, *not* having lousy production at 2 positions would have been able to soften the blow of the injuries somewhat, but they still have to play the games. In a more perfect world, the injuries would simply be a short window into where the likes of Bello and Duran (for example) are, instead of forcing them into roles for which they aren't quite ready for. (or may never be, but that's a different issue).
 

Cesar Crespo

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That should be considered a fluke more than anything else. Winning 83 games in a season is not a recipe for success by any reasonable standard.
Who cares? You asked if the Sox could compete in the playoffs. Yes, they can. Or they can even just get lucky. Because the playoffs are a crapshoot and shit happens. Luck matters.
 

BaseballJones

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Since 1997, which is 25 years' worth of baseball seasons, there have been 7 World Series winners that were wild card entrants:

1997 Marlins
2002 Angels
2003 Marlins
2004 Red Sox
2011 Cardinals
2014 Giants
2019 Nationals

7 out of 25 is 28.0% of the teams in the last 25 years to win the World Series have been WC entrants. If the Red Sox make it to the playoffs, they have a perfectly legitimate chance of winning the World Series or at least making a deep run in the playoffs.

The real problem at this point is getting there.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Despite the lousy production at two positions, the team was doing pretty well until a torrent of injuries. To be sure, *not* having lousy production at 2 positions would have been able to soften the blow of the injuries somewhat, but they still have to play the games.
It's been more than just the injuries. Verdugo is OPS+ing 85, JBJ 58. Duran's at 92 but his defense is terrible. They're getting underperformance all over the outfield.

Verdugo is 26 and yet seemingly moving backwards in his production.
 

joe dokes

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It's been more than just the injuries. Verdugo is OPS+ing 85, JBJ 58. Duran's at 92 but his defense is terrible. They're getting underperformance all over the outfield.
Speaking of Verdugo and JBJ...is there any rational explanation why Verdugo is 113OPS+ on the road and 65(!) at home; and JBJ is 123 at home and 6(!!!!!!!!!) on the road. Six.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Speaking of Verdugo and JBJ...is there any rational explanation why Verdugo is 113OPS+ on the road and 65(!) at home; and JBJ is 123 at home and 6(!!!!!!!!!) on the road. Six.
JBJ at least had always hit vastly better at Fenway. I don't know why, he must see the ball well here or something.

Verdugo....no idea. Maybe the Wall messes with his approach. LHB usually do well at Fenway because they can go opposite field and flick the ball off the Wall for doubles but Verdugo for whatever reason isn't very good there.
 

JCizzle

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Despite the lousy production at two positions, the team was doing pretty well until a torrent of injuries. To be sure, *not* having lousy production at 2 positions would have been able to soften the blow of the injuries somewhat, but they still have to play the games.
They did really well in June. They played: Athletics (6), Angels (4), Mariners (3), Cardinals (3), Tigers (3), Guardians (3), Blue Jays (3), Reds (1). Not exactly a brutal stretch, but they did play some WC contenders.

Also, it's not like the Red Sox are the only team with injuries. Other teams in our division and across the league are finding a way despite similarly poor injury luck.
 

Cesar Crespo

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We're not going to agree on this at all. Hoping to be an 83 win team that sneaks into the playoffs isn't what this team should be doing.
It's not what they should be hoping to do, but if they do that and win a WS... are you going to complain? Will that WS mean less?

They didn't go into this year hoping to make the playoffs winning 83 games, but if that happens... then what? You just don't count it?

Just because you can't "plan" on something happening doesn't mean it'll never happen.

I don't even get what you are disagreeing with. Yeah, chances are the Sox aren't going to make the playoffs winning 83 games this year, but if they do.. .they have a chance to win the WS. Any team in the playoffs has a good chance at winning the WS.

Your question was "Can they compete in the playoffs?" I showed you an instance, and you wrote it off as a fluke. Yeah, because luck doesn't matter in baseball.

Let me ask you a question, if the Sox make the playoffs, can they win the WS? You really gonna say no? Because it's literally possible.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Also, the idea that “no one can predict poor performance” is laughable. Pretty much everyone predicted poor performance from Dalbec, Cordero, and Bradley- yet those three have combined for 773 plate appearances at a 68 OPs+.

Almost all of the positive contributors on this team are pending FA’s and the “kids” have largely been playing really poorly, which is discouraging as we look to the future.

The team has a 12.1% chance of making the postseason and 0.3% chance of winning it all. They are in the race, because with expanded playoffs, ~70% of teams are in the race, it’s by design.
 

BaseballJones

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Players underperforming (U), overperforming (O), or performing roughly as expected (E):

C - Vazquez (O)
1b - Dalbec (U)
2b - Story (U)
3b - Devers (E)
SS - Bogaerts (E)
LF - Verdugo (U)
CF - Hernandez (U)
RF - Bradley (U)
DH - Martinez (U) - good OPS at 130, but very little power and run production (just 38 rbi)
OF - Refsnyder (O)
OF - Duran (U) - not killing them at the plate (not good either of course), but D has been terrible
OF/1b - Cordero (U)
IF - Arroyo (U)
C - Plawecki (U) - nobody expected much but a 53 ops+ is considerably worse than his career norm

P - Pivetta (E)
P - Sale (U) - thought he'd be back sooner, then did meh, then is out again
P - Eovaldi (U) - 4.30 era and hurt
P - Wacha (O) - the one real stunner this year
P - Hill (E)
P - Whitlock (U) - thought he'd be better, even though he's been fine overall
P - Houck (E)
P - Sawamura (E) - numbers are in line with what he did last year
P - Diekman (U)
P - Davis (E)
P - Barnes (U)
P - Brasier (U)
P - Schrieber (O) - the other wildly successful story of this year
P - Strahm (E)
P - Robles (U) - and now gone
P - Seabold/Ort/Crawford/Danish (E) - didn't expect much...haven't gotten much

I mean, those are just my subjective judgments, but from this list, I see 33 guys (or 30 if you count that last group as one guy, as I kind of did). Of that list, just 4 of them are over performing my expectations: Vazquez (106 ops+), Refsnyder (149 ops+ in limited time), Wacha (2.69 era but now hurt), and Schrieber (who's been phenomenal).

There have been 17 guys by my count that are underperforming what I would have expected from them.

I mean, here's the thing. It's one thing to assemble a crappy team. But it's another to have such a high percentage of them underperforming your expectations. Like...I didn't expect a whole lot out of, say, Brasier. But he's been WAY worse than even those modest expectations. Ok, whatever. But then there's guys like JD, who has a decent ops+, but he's not hitting for any power or driving in any runs (8 homers and 38 rbi at this point project to 13 homers and 63 rbi...terrible for your #4 hitter). WAY underperforming what is expected of him. Story had a nice stretch in May but he's been hurt and overall not good. Eovaldi has underperformed, with a 4.30 era and has been injured.

Obviously there's ranges. Like there's underperforming (Eovaldi by just a little) and there's *underperforming* (Barnes' utter catastrophe of a season). But when over half your team is underperforming and only like 4 guys are OVER performing - and one of them is just a fill-in (Refsnyder), then you know you have problems. Typically you expect a few guys to over perform, a few guys to underperform, and most of the team to play roughly to their expected level. This team isn't doing that at ALL.

In fact, when you look at that reality, it's actually amazing that they're even at .500.
 

sezwho

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Who cares? You asked if the Sox could compete in the playoffs. Yes, they can. Or they can even just get lucky. Because the playoffs are a crapshoot and shit happens. Luck matters.
I guess, but hopefully you are wrong otherwise the entire MLB season is a joke. Which it now may be thanks to the extra wild cards.

Baseball is by far the random walk-iest of all major sports by an enormous amount, which is why the regular season used to matter. Eventually the better teams would separate, but even the very best teams win 100 games (which reduces quickly to 100-60 or 5-3 which is ~ one game over 500).

If the goal is to be 500 and stumble into the playoffs and hope the better teams hit balls to your fielders, which for sure can happen for series or two, then welcome to the Bloomtown.
 

Cesar Crespo

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It gets similarly tiresome reading the same people saying everything is just fine over and over and over.
I don't see anyone saying everything is just fine. I see a lot of people who think the Sox can compete this year are also talking about possibly selling.

But yeah, season over. Let's talk about how Bloom failed this offseason by counting on Bobby Dalbec and JBJ yet again.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I guess, but hopefully you are wrong otherwise the entire MLB season is a joke. Which it now may be thanks to the extra wild cards.

Baseball is by far the random walk-iest of all major sports by an enormous amount, which is why the regular season used to matter. Eventually the better teams would separate, but even the very best teams win 100 games (which reduces quickly to 100-60 or 5-3 which is ~ one game over 500).

If the goal is to be 500 and stumble into the playoffs and hope the better teams hit balls to your fielders, which for sure can happen for series or two, then welcome to the Bloomtown.
Last year the Reds would have made the playoffs under the current system. 83-79.

The Cardinals are in the playoffs as of right now and are on pace to win 84 games.

Rays and Twins slightly better at 86.
 

BaseballJones

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If the goal is to be 500 and stumble into the playoffs and hope the better teams hit balls to your fielders, which for sure can happen for series or two, then welcome to the Bloomtown.
That's wildly unfair. Bloom wasn't hoping to construct a .500 team and get lucky. If you look at my admittedly subjective look at who has over performed and under performed and performed at about expectation level, they have SO MANY more guys under performing than over performing. Bloom wasn't counting on that kind of unfortunate tilt in his roster. Looking at the standings, if his team performs at normal levels (a few guys Under, a few guys Over, and most at about Expectation level), than this team is probably in first place in the WC standings, or at least is IN the WC spot right now at a minimum. You just can't count on this terrible disparity, this many guys playing so much worse than expectation.

I mean, Dalbec. His first two seasons (156 g) he hit 33 homers in 545 plate appearances (one homer every 16.5 PA) and had an ops+ of 112. Ok. maybe he's not THAT good. Fine. You expect some result less than that. Say, maybe, one homer every 20 PA, and an ops+ of 100, with the power - which he's ALWAYS had in spades - making up for a low OBP.

But this year he's got 8 homers in 268 plate appearances (one homer every 33.5 PA), and an ops+ of 69. So you expected worse numbers than what he had done his first two years, but he's been absolutely WAY worse than even that. But if he WAS putting up what I might have expected - which was still a drop-off from his first two seasons - he'd have been much much more productive this year and maybe helped them win a few more games - which alone might have been enough to put them in a WC spot or close to it. And that's just ONE guy.
 

Rovin Romine

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I mean, here's the thing. It's one thing to assemble a crappy team. But it's another to have such a high percentage of them underperforming your expectations.
Ting. We also have to consider that Franchy wasn't on the radar, was brought up as a stop-gap, started putting it together. . .then fell apart. These things happen. But it's not like ineffectual-Franchy was the plan when we played our first game.

It gets similarly tiresome reading the same people saying everything is just fine over and over and over.
I'm going to call you out on this. Show it.

***
As a more general comment, I'm tired of the partisan bullshit strawmen that have infected this board.

We've got a handful of people who are trying to have an adult conversation about the pros and cons of the seasonal team-building, and who are trying to rationally assess the teams chances on the season. I would say there's disagreement on certain points among that group, but probably a broad consensus that the team is in a very very bad spot right now, and may well tumble out of contention. Disagreement is absolutely 100% fine. Heck, some of us even needle each other.

Then we've got a handful of posters who are acting like that glitchy guy on the street corner repeatedly yelling THERE IS NO EXCUSE THAT CHIAM BLOOM DIDN'T PREDICT CORDERO WOULD SUCK AND TRADE FOR A FIRST BASEMAN BY GETTING RID OF CHRIS SALE WHOM I'VE ALWAYS HATED AND WHO NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN SIGNED TO A DEAL.

Well no fucking shit. We heard it the first time. And the 20th time.

Mature and entirely unobjectionable points like: "Anyway, this sucks, but if we get to the post season, we could always go on a run" get treated to the street-corner howling instead of being developed.

And honestly, I don't really get what drives the partisan investment in those street-corner positions. But I don't need to.

It sucks.

Don't be a part of it.


(PS - I'll freely admit I haven't been a saint in this field, but it really does have to stop.)
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I don't see anyone saying everything is just fine. I see a lot of people who think the Sox can compete this year are also talking about possibly selling.

But yeah, season over. Let's talk about how Bloom failed this offseason by counting on Bobby Dalbec and JBJ yet again.
Agree that it’s tiresome to talk about how Bloom failed this off-season (although it’s also bizarre that every concern about a Bloom move from this year is met with a “the team was good last year” refrain) less tiresome to wonder why he hasn’t done anything to fix mistakes of several months ago. But that seems to be the argument of many; he set up the roster, no control over what happens after that.

Team is in free fall, yet I’m sure we’ll see the same guys playing today.

(For example, the Mets traded for Dan Vogelbach recently; 1b who crushes righties, and he’s got a ridiculous $1.5m option next year. Only cost them Colin Holderman. Seems like the kind of guy the Sox could have used now, and in the future. Who knows if they were in on him, but a few moves like this could have the team in a better spot now and next year).
 
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Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Mature and entirely unobjectionable points like: "Anyway, this sucks, but if we get to the post season, we could always go on a run" get treated to the street-corner howling instead of developed.
Because it's not a mature argument, it's wishcasting. Sure, if they sneak into the playoffs with a 500 or even worse record, they could go on a run. That's so unlikely to happen GIVEN WHAT WE'VE SEEN FROM THE TEAM THIS YEAR that it's not worth discussing. Such a statement stifles discussion instead of enhancing it because you're clinging to the 0.0000000000001% chance that it might happen. It's entirely unrealistic.

You're taking every bit the partisan position you're accusing others of having. In your own words: don't be a part of that.
 

sezwho

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That's wildly unfair. Bloom wasn't hoping to construct a .500 team and get lucky. If you look at my admittedly subjective look at who has over performed and under performed and performed at about expectation level, they have SO MANY more guys under performing than over performing. Bloom wasn't counting on that kind of unfortunate tilt in his roster. Looking at the standings, if his team performs at normal levels (a few guys Under, a few guys Over, and most at about Expectation level), than this team is probably in first place in the WC standings, or at least is IN the WC spot right now at a minimum. You just can't count on this terrible disparity, this many guys playing so much worse than expectation.

I mean, Dalbec. His first two seasons (156 g) he hit 33 homers in 545 plate appearances (one homer every 16.5 PA) and had an ops+ of 112. Ok. maybe he's not THAT good. Fine. You expect some result less than that. Say, maybe, one homer every 20 PA, and an ops+ of 100, with the power - which he's ALWAYS had in spades - making up for a low OBP.

But this year he's got 8 homers in 268 plate appearances (one homer every 33.5 PA), and an ops+ of 69. So you expected worse numbers than what he had done his first two years, but he's been absolutely WAY worse than even that. But if he WAS putting up what I might have expected - which was still a drop-off from his first two seasons - he'd have been much much more productive this year and maybe helped them win a few more games - which alone might have been enough to put them in a WC spot or close to it. And that's just ONE guy.
You did the legwork to capture underperformers, which is great as the board always needs rigor, but I'm not sure my take is unfair.

I thought they were just as lucky with pitching performance this season as they were unlucky with offense. Why be so keen to credit Bloom for luck in Pitching and give him a pass for Offense? I thought they were quite lucky to get on a hot streak with the bats last season too. and the Schwarber bet could have gone the other way quite easily.

Maybe spending to get way over 500 is the new market inefficiency since everyone makes the playoffs and after that its just luck?

Someone on this board did the work to show the correlation between regular and post season performance is near zero: meaning over the long haul looking at playoff runs the #1 seed doesn't outperform the team that just squeaked in...if this isn't true then I'll retract my point :)

Edit - Given the large expansion of playoff teams, and thus inclusion of more drek, will change this calculus of whether just getting in is enough
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,666
Because it's not a mature argument, it's wishcasting. Sure, if they sneak into the playoffs with a 500 or even worse record, they could go on a run. That's so unlikely to happen GIVEN WHAT WE'VE SEEN FROM THE TEAM THIS YEAR that it's not worth discussing. Such a statement stifles discussion instead of enhancing it because you're clinging to the 0.0000000000001% chance that it might happen. It's entirely unrealistic.

You're taking every bit the partisan position you're accusing others of having. In your own words: don't be a part of that.
But that's the thing. 7 of the last 25 World Series winners (28.0%) have been WC entrants. That's not remotely 0.0000000000001%. It means that if the Sox do manage to get in, they have a VERY REAL and legitimate chance to make a deep run and maybe even win it all.

You are correct, of course, that none of us were hoping for, or expecting, the team to be in last place in the AL East at this point in time. Of course, I don't know that we were expecting Baltimore to be a +.500 team at this point either, so good for them (bad for us). The season has been very disappointing so far. We all agree on that. I don't think any of us here were hoping for this. But it's one thing to say that this season is a disappointment so far, and it's another thing to say that they're DONE and basically have no chance.

I, for one, am holding out hope that somehow, some way, they can squeak into the playoffs and then get hot like they did last year, which is totally possible and not a crazy thought at all.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

Throw Momma From the Train
Moderator
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May 20, 2003
35,856
Deep inside Muppet Labs
But that's the thing. 7 of the last 25 World Series winners (28.0%) have been WC entrants. That's not remotely 0.0000000000001%. It means that if the Sox do manage to get in, they have a VERY REAL and legitimate chance to make a deep run and maybe even win it all.

You are correct, of course, that none of us were hoping for, or expecting, the team to be in last place in the AL East at this point in time. Of course, I don't know that we were expecting Baltimore to be a +.500 team at this point either, so good for them (bad for us). The season has been very disappointing so far. We all agree on that. I don't think any of us here were hoping for this. But it's one thing to say that this season is a disappointment so far, and it's another thing to say that they're DONE and basically have no chance.

I, for one, am holding out hope that somehow, some way, they can squeak into the playoffs and then get hot like they did last year, which is totally possible and not a crazy thought at all.
It's not the WC bit I take issue with. Of course a WC team can win it, as long as it's a GOOD team.

It's the idea that an 83 win team has a puncher's chance at the title because it happened once.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,666
You did the legwork to capture underperformers, which is great as the board always needs rigor, but I'm not sure my take is unfair.
What I think is unfair is the insinuation on your part that this was Bloom's plan - to be a .500 team and then sneak in and get lucky in the playoffs. Now I could have been misreading your intent, and if so, I apologize. But that was the point of my "you're being wildly unfair" comment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I thought they were just as lucky with pitching performance this season as they were unlucky with offense. Why be so keen to credit Bloom for luck in Pitching and give him a pass for Offense? I thought they were quite lucky to get on a hot streak with the bats last season too. and the Schwarber bet could have gone the other way quite easily.
I don't understand. I think they have had TWO guys on the pitching staff that have over performed expectations: Wacha and Schrieber. That's it. How is that "lucky", when compared to the number of pitchers that have under performed?
 

Lose Remerswaal

Experiencing Furry Panic
Lifetime Member
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It's not the WC bit I take issue with. Of course a WC team can win it, as long as it's a GOOD team.

It's the idea that an 83 win team has a puncher's chance at the title because it happened once.
IF this team gets healthy (and that includes Sale) AND this team finds production in RF or 1B (Get it done, Chaim) THEN they have a chance to do well in the Wildcard and maybe go a bit deeper than we expected before the season began.

If those things don't happen, then Go Draft Choice!
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,666
It's not the WC bit I take issue with. Of course a WC team can win it, as long as it's a GOOD team.

It's the idea that an 83 win team has a puncher's chance at the title because it happened once.
No but that's kinda misreading it a little. The point isn't that an 83 win team won it so the Sox can (and that team was a division winner, mind you). It's that as long as you get into the postseason tournament, no matter how you got there, you've got a chance. And frankly, it's not hard at ALL for me to see how THIS team could make a run in the postseason if they get there. They have some outstanding players who just need to perform at their expected level at the same time. Which, to be fair, seems like a stretch right now, but hey, it's not CRAZY.
 

cornwalls@6

Less observant than others
SoSH Member
Apr 23, 2010
6,279
from the wilds of western ma
Players underperforming (U), overperforming (O), or performing roughly as expected (E):

C - Vazquez (O)
1b - Dalbec (U)
2b - Story (U)
3b - Devers (E)
SS - Bogaerts (E)
LF - Verdugo (U)
CF - Hernandez (U)
RF - Bradley (U)
DH - Martinez (U) - good OPS at 130, but very little power and run production (just 38 rbi)
OF - Refsnyder (O)
OF - Duran (U) - not killing them at the plate (not good either of course), but D has been terrible
OF/1b - Cordero (U)
IF - Arroyo (U)
C - Plawecki (U) - nobody expected much but a 53 ops+ is considerably worse than his career norm

P - Pivetta (E)
P - Sale (U) - thought he'd be back sooner, then did meh, then is out again
P - Eovaldi (U) - 4.30 era and hurt
P - Wacha (O) - the one real stunner this year
P - Hill (E)
P - Whitlock (U) - thought he'd be better, even though he's been fine overall
P - Houck (E)
P - Sawamura (E) - numbers are in line with what he did last year
P - Diekman (U)
P - Davis (E)
P - Barnes (U)
P - Brasier (U)
P - Schrieber (O) - the other wildly successful story of this year
P - Strahm (E)
P - Robles (U) - and now gone
P - Seabold/Ort/Crawford/Danish (E) - didn't expect much...haven't gotten much

I mean, those are just my subjective judgments, but from this list, I see 33 guys (or 30 if you count that last group as one guy, as I kind of did). Of that list, just 4 of them are over performing my expectations: Vazquez (106 ops+), Refsnyder (149 ops+ in limited time), Wacha (2.69 era but now hurt), and Schrieber (who's been phenomenal).

There have been 17 guys by my count that are underperforming what I would have expected from them.

I mean, here's the thing. It's one thing to assemble a crappy team. But it's another to have such a high percentage of them underperforming your expectations. Like...I didn't expect a whole lot out of, say, Brasier. But he's been WAY worse than even those modest expectations. Ok, whatever. But then there's guys like JD, who has a decent ops+, but he's not hitting for any power or driving in any runs (8 homers and 38 rbi at this point project to 13 homers and 63 rbi...terrible for your #4 hitter). WAY underperforming what is expected of him. Story had a nice stretch in May but he's been hurt and overall not good. Eovaldi has underperformed, with a 4.30 era and has been injured.

Obviously there's ranges. Like there's underperforming (Eovaldi by just a little) and there's *underperforming* (Barnes' utter catastrophe of a season). But when over half your team is underperforming and only like 4 guys are OVER performing - and one of them is just a fill-in (Refsnyder), then you know you have problems. Typically you expect a few guys to over perform, a few guys to underperform, and most of the team to play roughly to their expected level. This team isn't doing that at ALL.

In fact, when you look at that reality, it's actually amazing that they're even at .500.
I have to put Dalbec and Cordero firmly in the "E" column, and that's been one of Blooms biggest failures in constructing this team. They haven't underperformed. No one should've been expecting sustained production at 1B, because that's not who those guys are. Dalbecs hot streak for a few weeks in the second half last year, not withstanding. Same with JBJ. It was wing and prayer stuff thinking he'd bounce back with a productive offensive season at this stage in his career. The injuries are what they are, they are significant, and he's not at fault for those. But the bargain basement approach at 1B and in the outfield is a hit on his record.
 
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