Red Sox in season discussion

Ganthem

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They did have the a backup to JBJ. His name is Durran. Though most of SOSH might have decreed that he is not a mlb player, I doubt Bloom will come to that conclusion based on 112 ab. They had a backup for Dalbec. His name is Cassas and I believe Franchy was taking reps at first base last year. As cool as it would be to have all stars at every position, in order to remain competitive and not have a massively bloated payroll, Bloom needs to take swings on JBJ and he needs to have a reasonably long leash with guys like Dalbec and Durran. At the end of the day though, signing Pham or some other backup outfielder would not matter. Verdugo, Kike, and Story can't hit their way out of a paper bag. JDM spent a bulk of time on not playing due to an injury and Devers started hot, but has cooled down considerably. There is no way Bloom could have protected the Sox against that.
 

jon abbey

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They did have the a backup to JBJ. His name is Durran. Though most of SOSH might have decreed that he is not a mlb player, I doubt Bloom will come to that conclusion based on 112 ab. They had a backup for Dalbec. His name is Cassas and I believe Franchy was taking reps at first base last year.
Their names are actually Duran and Casas, if you're going to post with a condescending tone, you at least need to be able to spell the players' names correctly.
 

moondog80

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No, a Tommy Pham-esque player instead of JBJ/Arroyo would not, by himself, turn this around given the other performances in the lineup. But I'm not using hindsight. JBJ/Arroyo was a very curious decision at the time, given the Sox' resources, and the only one where I can really question the process. I'm fine with wanting the prospects and glad they are doing well. But spend another 8 mil on a one year deal for another serviceable corner OF.
 

CR67dream

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But why have even one weak spot in the lineup if you don't have to, especially at a position where you can find decent offensive options? Wouldn't they have been better off with Verdugo in RF and Tommy Pham in LF?

(And it was at best the 2nd anticipated weak spot, along with catcher.)

EDIT: You might be able to convince me that they saw something in JBJ they could fix, a little anyway. But Arroyo playing so much RF, and not because of two or three guys being injured, is a tough one to swallow.
No thanks.
----------------
Yahoo — “I am going to approach this season as a revenge tour. I’m playing to get my numbers, man. I’m being dead honest with you. There is nothing selfish about it. In the past I put up some really good seasons," Pham said.

“I’m playing to get some numbers. I don’t care about anything else. I’m looking out for me. At the end of the day baseball is going to move on without me. I have to get mine right now," he said.

https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/3414361/tommy-pham-is-hitting-.038-after-saying-he-only-signed-with-the-reds-to-get-his-numbers
 

Cesar Crespo

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They did have the a backup to JBJ. His name is Durran. Though most of SOSH might have decreed that he is not a mlb player, I doubt Bloom will come to that conclusion based on 112 ab. They had a backup for Dalbec. His name is Cassas and I believe Franchy was taking reps at first base last year. As cool as it would be to have all stars at every position, in order to remain competitive and not have a massively bloated payroll, Bloom needs to take swings on JBJ and he needs to have a reasonably long leash with guys like Dalbec and Durran. At the end of the day though, signing Pham or some other backup outfielder would not matter. Verdugo, Kike, and Story can't hit their way out of a paper bag. JDM spent a bulk of time on not playing due to an injury and Devers started hot, but has cooled down considerably. There is no way Bloom could have protected the Sox against that.
That's the thing. JBJ should have been the back up plan. I doubt Duran's been written off by the Red Sox but he's a guy who should have to force his way into the lineup if everyone's healthy. Ideally anyway. Everyone else could be awful, but when does that happen? Oh.
 
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The Sox season is a culmination of a few different things that is really killing them.
1. Several regulars on offense are hitting well below their career averages. Will they all have career-worst seasons during the same year? Unlikely. I expect some positive regression offensively. Dalbec has been absolutely dreadful. Is this who he is? What about the last two months of 2021?
2. The bullpen is a cobbled together mess and has blown several leads late in games. Not very surprising considering the names and with Whitlock in the rotation. I expect this to be a mess all season.
3. The Sox front office has given extensions to players based on prior performance that is not healthy (Sale) or is not performing close to what they are being paid (Barnes and Story.) I expect Story to be much better as the season goes on.
4. Diminishing reruns on the Betts trade. Verdugo hasn’t lived up to the potential major leaguer we thought we were getting. He hasn’t been bad, but could be much better. Wong hasn’t done much at the major league level and Downs has been inconsistent in the minors.
 

Ganthem

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Their names are actually Duran and Casas, if you're going to post with a condescending tone, you at least need to be able to spell the players' names correctly.
My intentions were not to be condescending and being pedantic does not help resolve the conflict. Rather then assume my intentions and blast it on the board, how about you DM me? Lastly, the spelling of the player's name does not negate the point I am making. Do you have any comments to make in regards to the substance of my post? If so I would love to hear it.
 

Ganthem

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No, a Tommy Pham-esque player instead of JBJ/Arroyo would not, by himself, turn this around given the other performances in the lineup. But I'm not using hindsight. JBJ/Arroyo was a very curious decision at the time, given the Sox' resources, and the only one where I can really question the process. I'm fine with wanting the prospects and glad they are doing well. But spend another 8 mil on a one year deal for another serviceable corner OF.
Last season in 56 games Arroyo put up a one WAR and a 106 wrc+. The ding on Arroyo has been his inability to stay healthy. Signing Story and moving Arroyo to a backup role made sense. Perhaps less playing time would equal less time on the DL. Also if I remember correctly, Cora had talked about JDM getting playing time in RF. In 2019 JBJ put up a 1.8 WAR and in 2020 he put up a 1.6 WAR. His offense suddenly crater when he was with the Brewers. I obviously don't have insight into what Bloom and company were thinking or what analytics they used to evaluate a player, but it doesn't seem a reach for them to think that JBJ could get back to or close to the player he was in 2019 and 2020. At the very least his defense didn't seem to erode and assuming the rest of the lineup hit like it was suppose to, the Sox could live with his lack of production. If push came to shove, they could promote either Duran or Franchy (boy I hope I go the spelling right) and give them a shot in RF. The reason the JBJ trade and making JBJ the starting RF seems like such a curious move is because the rest of the lineup, with the exception of Bogey, can't hit their way out of a paper bag.
 

Daniel_Son

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Does anyone have any clue what's going on with Story? I mean the guy has an .853 career OPS. Even last year, battling injury and clubhouse dramatics, he still managed at .800 OPS and 24 home runs. He's only 29 years old.

I get he had a short spring training and missed a few games due to illness, but he looks completely lost at the plate.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Does anyone have any clue what's going on with Story? I mean the guy has an .853 career OPS. Even last year, battling injury and clubhouse dramatics, he still managed at .800 OPS and 24 home runs. He's only 29 years old.

I get he had a short spring training and missed a few games due to illness, but he looks completely lost at the plate.
I’ve said it before and it was dismissed: he doesn’t want to be here. He wanted to sign in Texas to play shortstop but his agents screwed up the negotiations so badly with over aggressive counter offers that Texas pulled their offer. He took the Sox offer as it was the only option but he also fired his agents.

He doesn’t want to be here playing 2B. His performance reflects that. Yes, he should be a professional and deal with it, but every outward appearance is of a guy mailing it in.

Only 5 3/4 years left on the contract! Wheee!
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Does anyone have any clue what's going on with Story? I mean the guy has an .853 career OPS. Even last year, battling injury and clubhouse dramatics, he still managed at .800 OPS and 24 home runs. He's only 29 years old.

I get he had a short spring training and missed a few games due to illness, but he looks completely lost at the plate.
Why does it have to be anything other than the short spring training and the illness? He's clearly pressing right now. The last thing he needs to be doing is pressing because you can't force your way out of a slump. That goes for the whole lineup outside of Bogaerts and Martinez.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I’ve said it before and it was dismissed: he doesn’t want to be here. He wanted to sign in Texas to play shortstop but his agents screwed up the negotiations so badly with over aggressive counter offers that Texas pulled their offer. He took the Sox offer as it was the only option but he also fired his agents.

He doesn’t want to be here playing 2B. His performance reflects that.
If he didn't want to be here, why'd he sign for five years? Why not take the Correa route if he wanted something else?
 

DeadlySplitter

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This team needs to go back to hitting class. The launch angle "revolution" has led to only one swing mode all of the time regardless of game situation.
 

chawson

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Because there’s immense pressure on the players to get the numbers in their contracts to help the other players with negotiations.

I am 100% convinced he doesn’t want to be here and is miserable and his play reflects that.
This is absurd stuff man. There’ve been multiple reports quoting Story saying things like “this is where I belong,” and he was beaming in that press conference.

These people are adults, y’know?

Instead of firehosing every hitter with bile why don’t we blame the hitting coach situation? That’s the biggest and most obvious change from last year, besides the humidor.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Because there’s immense pressure on the players to get the numbers in their contracts to help the other players with negotiations.

I am 100% convinced he doesn’t want to be here and is miserable and his play reflects that.
So he signed a long term contract with a team he didn't want to play for to play a position he didn't want to play out of loyalty to the union? Bull fucking shit.

Again, I ask why he wouldn't he take a similar deal to what Correa got (for a lot less AAV obviously) to get to next winter? It's not like dozens of players before him haven't done the same thing without harming players' opportunities in the future.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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This is absurd stuff man. There’ve been multiple reports quoting Story saying things like “this is where I belong,” and he was beaming in that press conference.

These people are adults, you know?

Instead of firehosing every hitter with bile why don’t we blame the hitting coach situation? That’s the biggest and most obvious change from last year, besides the humidor.
Have you ever heard or talked to baseball players? They are most certainly not adults lol.

Story wanted to be in Texas. He’s here instead. You can connect the dots as to why he stinks this year. I have never been so convinced of anything in my life.
 

Harry Hooper

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From yesterday's game thread:

The 2021 splits for Story vs. RHP and Verdugo vs. LHP may have been warning signs for both.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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So he signed a long term contract with a team he didn't want to play for to play a position he didn't want to play out of loyalty to the union? Bull fucking shit.

Again, I ask why he wouldn't he take a similar deal to what Correa got (for a lot less AAV obviously) to get to next winter? It's not like dozens of players before him haven't done the same thing without harming players' opportunities in the future.
Were there teams offering him that kind of deal?

Regardless, who knows if this was his top choice or not. He’s in a new town, playing an unfamiliar position, has a baby, got off to a bad start, and now is getting booed. I would guess his issues are more psychological than anything else at this point. Needs to hit his first homer, string a few good games together, and he will be fine, I think.

His start reminds me of that year when Papi couldn’t do anything right for the first month or two.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Were there teams offering him that kind of deal?

Regardless, who knows if this was his top choice or not. He’s in a new town, playing an unfamiliar position, has a baby, got off to a bad start, and now is getting booed. I would guess his issues are more psychological than anything else at this point. Needs to hit his first homer, string a few good games together, and he will be fine, I think.
I actually don’t disagree here but will add the caveat that his non-Colorado numbers aren’t exactly fine either.
 

BaseballJones

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I’ve said it before and it was dismissed: he doesn’t want to be here. He wanted to sign in Texas to play shortstop but his agents screwed up the negotiations so badly with over aggressive counter offers that Texas pulled their offer. He took the Sox offer as it was the only option but he also fired his agents.

He doesn’t want to be here playing 2B. His performance reflects that. Yes, he should be a professional and deal with it, but every outward appearance is of a guy mailing it in.

Only 5 3/4 years left on the contract! Wheee!
Maybe you're right. But he is a professional. And there are TONS of people who work where they do despite not preferring to be there, and they do just fine at their jobs. Nobody forced him to sign that contract. He needs to figure it out.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Were there teams offering him that kind of deal?
You think there are teams that would have turned down a chance to sign him for 1/22ish? Cardinals? Angels? Yankees? Seattle reportedly wanted him to play 2B before the lockout and he turned it down flat so there's another possibility. Hell, he could have signed HERE for just one year if his intent was to end up some place he preferred for the long run. Point being if signing in Boston was not what he really wanted, he didn't have to sign for FIVE FUCKING YEARS.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Maybe you're right. But he is a professional. And there are TONS of people who work where they do despite not preferring to be there, and they do just fine at their jobs. Nobody forced him to sign that contract. He needs to figure it out.
I agree with you. Meanwhile, he’s been shit. Like the rest of the team. But still: utter shit.

Already veering towards sunk cost territory.
 

Rovin Romine

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My intentions were not to be condescending and being pedantic does not help resolve the conflict. Rather then assume my intentions and blast it on the board, how about you DM me? Lastly, the spelling of the player's name does not negate the point I am making. Do you have any comments to make in regards to the substance of my post? If so I would love to hear it.
FWIW, I think you just failed a preception check, or saving throw, or something like that.
 

chawson

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Maybe you're right. But he is a professional. And there are TONS of people who work where they do despite not preferring to be there, and they do just fine at their jobs. Nobody forced him to sign that contract. He needs to figure it out.
He’s not right. I’d say it’s an insane notion, but it’s exactly the kind of weird, hyperaggrieved, conspiratorial reactionary take that can become self-fulfilling and create the kind of toxic atmosphere that makes players want to leave. IMO.

It’s perfectly normal for a big FA to be “pressing” in his first month under normal circumstances. Add in a short spring, a cold, a new baby, and it’s more than explainable. Plus, the x-stats show that he’s hitting the ball much, much better after his first two weeks. Trevor Story is a very good player and he’s figuring it out. He should not have to answer to Shank trying to scapegoat him, to misplaced boos from the crowd, or for the weird nonsensical paranoias from members of the Red Sox fan base like the one above.
 

BaseballJones

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I agree with you. Meanwhile, he’s been shit. Like the rest of the team. But still: utter shit.

Already veering towards sunk cost territory.
Nowhere near that yet. I mean, he could have a crap year all season, then get it figured out, and have a great rest of his time with Boston. But yeah, he's been terrible and that's not what this team has needed.
 

BaseballJones

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He’s not right. I’d say it’s an insane notion, but it’s exactly the kind of weird, hyperaggrieved, conspiratorial reactionary take that can become self-fulfilling and create the kind of atmosphere that makes players want to leave. IMO.

It’s perfectly normal for a big FA to be “pressing” in his first month under normal circumstances. Add in a short spring, a cold, a new baby, and it’s more than explainable. Plus, the x-stats show that he’s hitting the ball much, much better after his first two weeks. Trevor Story is a very good player and he’s figuring it out. He should not have to answer to Shank trying to scapegoat him, to misplaced boos from the crowd, or for the weird nonsensical paranoias from members of the Red Sox fan base like the one above.
Nobody should have to answer ANYTHING that Shank says on ANY topic. He's everything that's bad and wrong with Boston sports media and should be treated as such.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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Nowhere near that yet. I mean, he could have a crap year all season, then get it figured out, and have a great rest of his time with Boston. But yeah, he's been terrible and that's not what this team has needed.
I know we’ve discussed this elsewhere but his non-Colorado numbers are not that great. I would temper expectations for this contract considerably even if he stops hating being here.

Meanwhile, he sucks and it’s painful to watch. Probably time for a benching. And maybe calling up the Rangers for a chat.
 

BaseballJones

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I know we’ve discussed this elsewhere but his non-Colorado numbers are not that great. I would temper expectations for this contract considerably even if he stops hating being here.

Meanwhile, he sucks and it’s painful to watch. Probably time for a benching. And maybe calling up the Rangers for a chat.
Agree that his non-Colorado numbers weren't nearly what they were in Coors. Here are his career home/road splits:

Home: .300/.366/.594/.959
Road: .240/.311/.437/.748

If he was hitting at an ops of .748 right now, that would help the team immensely. Going into today he was at .568 on the year, and today he went 0-4 with 3 Ks.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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You think there are teams that would have turned down a chance to sign him for 1/22ish? Cardinals? Angels? Yankees? Seattle reportedly wanted him to play 2B before the lockout and he turned it down flat so there's another possibility. Hell, he could have signed HERE for just one year if his intent was to end up some place he preferred for the long run. Point being if signing in Boston was not what he really wanted, he didn't have to sign for FIVE FUCKING YEARS.
Maybe those kinds of deals were out there when he signed with the Sox, I am not sure. It’s quite possible, maybe even likely, that deals he rejected in December were not being offered post lockout. But I don’t think the Sox would have been interested in him on a one year deal, not with the loss of a comp pick and X already set to be a free agent. This hardly seemed like a GFiN off-season.

Whatever the case, he’s here now. I can’t imagine the constant shuffling of the lineup is helping. Would like to see the team stick to a lineup, rotation, bullpen hierarchy, and go with it.
 

Rovin Romine

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Petagine in a Bottle

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Also, there are a lot of high profile players off to terrible starts.

Semien 194/264/255
Seagar 250/305/385
Baez 239/280/394
Chapman 202/278/394
 

moondog80

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Also, there are a lot of high profile players off to terrible starts.

Semien 194/264/255
Seagar 250/305/385
Baez 239/280/394
Chapman 202/278/394
None of them want to be on their new teams. I can tell from their body language. Hell, Chapman didn't even decide himself, he had to be forced to go play in a foreign country!

EDIT: To be clear, this is not an opinion. It's a fact. I am 100% convinced.
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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None of them want to be on their new teams. I can tell from their body language. Hell, Chapman didn't even decide himself, he had to be forced to go play in a foreign country!

EDIT: To be clear, this is not an opinion. It's a fact. I am 100% convinced.
How many of them fired their agents because they screwed up talks with the teams they actually wanted to be on?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Whatever the case, he’s here now. I can’t imagine the constant shuffling of the lineup is helping. Would like to see the team stick to a lineup, rotation, bullpen hierarchy, and go with it.
The idea of a consistent lineup being a thing is a myth. The Sox used 142 different batting orders in 2021 and that isn't atypical. There were only two players who hit in the same spot more than 100 times (Kike led off 118 times, JDM hit third 104 times), also not atypical across baseball.

It's not even a thing for Story. The Rockies used 143 different orders last year. Story hit in three different spots in the lineup (15 times in the 2nd spot, 75 times in the 3rd, 49 times in the cleanup spot). Hitting in different spots does not generally have that much of an effect on a player. At least not enough of one that it will turn around the effectiveness of five or six different players all at once.
 

genoasalami

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Agree that his non-Colorado numbers weren't nearly what they were in Coors. Here are his career home/road splits:

Home: .300/.366/.594/.959
Road: .240/.311/.437/.748

If he was hitting at an ops of .748 right now, that would help the team immensely. Going into today he was at .568 on the year, and today he went 0-4 with 3 Ks.
Going from playing half the games a mile high in a market with minimal media/fan pressure to playing in Boston is quite the switch. Some thrive on the extra "pressure" playing in a market like Boston ..others struggle.....
 

Papo The Snow Tiger

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How many of them fired their agents because they screwed up talks with the teams they actually wanted to be on?
In 1979 the Red Sox traded George Scott to the Royals for Tom Poquette, while they were playing in KC. All The Boomer had to do was walk across the field and into his new clubhouse. The Sox will be playing in Arlington next weekend......
 

E5 Yaz

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In 1979 the Red Sox traded George Scott to the Royals for Tom Poquette, while they were playing in KC. All The Boomer had to do was walk across the field and into his new clubhouse. The Sox will be playing in Arlington next weekend......
Too bad next weekend isn't June 16
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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The idea of a consistent lineup being a thing is a myth. The Sox used 142 different batting orders in 2021 and that isn't atypical. There were only two players who hit in the same spot more than 100 times (Kike led off 118 times, JDM hit third 104 times), also not atypical across baseball.

It's not even a thing for Story. The Rockies used 143 different orders last year. Story hit in three different spots in the lineup (15 times in the 2nd spot, 75 times in the 3rd, 49 times in the cleanup spot). Hitting in different spots does not generally have that much of an effect on a player. At least not enough of one that it will turn around the effectiveness of five or six different players all at once.
Ok, but some guys don’t seem comfortable in certain spots in the order, right? Wasn’t it Pedroia who was terrible leading off? Maybe Story is similar- having him bat first or sixth is certainly a departure from what he’s used to and what he has had success doing.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Ok, but some guys don’t seem comfortable in certain spots in the order, right? Wasn’t it Pedroia who was terrible leading off? Maybe Story is similar- having him bat first or sixth is certainly a departure from what he’s used to and what he has had success doing.
Story batting by position
1st - 38 G, 38 starts, .763 OPS
2nd - 208 G, 207 starts, .913 OPS
3rd - 87 G, 85 starts, .824 OPS
4th - 150 G, 149 starts, .889 OPS
5th - 131 G, 131 starts, .866 OPS
6th - 52 G, 52 starts, .690 OPS
7th - 72 G, 70 starts, .789 OPS
8th - 15 G, 14 starts, .911 OPS
9th - 15 G, 2 starts, .527 OPS
 

Smiling Joe Hesketh

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In 1979 the Red Sox traded George Scott to the Royals for Tom Poquette, while they were playing in KC. All The Boomer had to do was walk across the field and into his new clubhouse. The Sox will be playing in Arlington next weekend......
Hell, in ‘95 the Sox were in MIN and traded Frankie Rodriguez for Aguilera, so the players just switched clubhouses.