Red Sox in season discussion
- Thread starter Bob Montgomerys Helmet Hat
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This is now my favorite story of spring training and I'll be rooting for Holland to make the team and have a strong year. Whitlock comes off as being a very nice polite guy and Holland has shown a sense of humor about everything. Hopefully they can start a Porcello fan club together.
Sigh, Boras.
"On a big day for shortstops in Ft. Myers, I asked Scott Boras what the future holds for Xander Bogaerts. "Xander really did the [Red Sox] organization a great favor. He could have been a free agent two years ago. We’ll see if that quid pro quo among them exists," he said. " - Pete Abe
View: https://twitter.com/PeteAbe/status/1506644352654848009
"On a big day for shortstops in Ft. Myers, I asked Scott Boras what the future holds for Xander Bogaerts. "Xander really did the [Red Sox] organization a great favor. He could have been a free agent two years ago. We’ll see if that quid pro quo among them exists," he said. " - Pete Abe
View: https://twitter.com/PeteAbe/status/1506644352654848009
This is good research...but the applicable # is 22. 10 is Story's #.
I understand that he works for his clients and this is his job,
but someone ought to give this guy a massive wedgie.
Yes, this statement plus having Xander state he’s a SS are Boras posturing 101. Anyone want odds that he eventually declares the contract an epic victory?
Guessing they might hold on to Montas and move him at trade deadline. Hope we are in on this though.
View: https://twitter.com/ken_rosenthal/status/1506691818011992069?s=21
View: https://twitter.com/ken_rosenthal/status/1506691818011992069?s=21
I read an article about Boras once where he requires his clients to commit to only caring about the money as their criteria for signing.
In the end, he works for them, so the decision of which contact to sign is the player's. But it's probably closer to the other way around than any other client-player relationship in the game. Signing Boras as your agent is a very strong signal of future intent.
Did he start requiring that before or after Jason Varitek was a client? I seem to remember Tek taking a lesser offer (one that still got bitched about in these parts as he aged) to stay in Boston.
Didn't he overplay his hand and the Sox had to offer him a higher salary than needed so he could save a little face? Isn't that why people hated the contract?
I think it might have been the option year they added that upset folks. They offered him arbitration, which was the precursor to qualifying offers that netted the team a draft pick if he signed elsewhere. He (or Boras) turned that down expecting to get a bigger/longer deal somewhere. He ended up coming back to the Sox for $5M plus a team option for $5M or a player option for $3M.
Trying again since I goofed earlier and looked at this from #10, not #22.
#22's on Teams Derek Holland Has Played For:
- Rangers, 2009-2016: Marlon Byrd was wearing #22 in 2009. Holland did not take it when Byrd left.
- White Sox, 2017: uhh no one had this number in 2017 for the White Sox.
- Giants, 2018-2019: Andrew McCutchen had #22 in 2018, but no one has worn it since.
- Cubs, 2019: Jayson Hayward has had #22 since 2016
- Pirates, 2020: No one was wearing #22, but Andrew McCutchen had from '09-'17, and it might be held for now. Of note: Michael Feliz had and has since worn #45, but switched to #49 for this season only
- Tigers, 2021: Victor Reyes has had #22 since 2018; and Buck Farmer has #45 since 2014, so Holland went to 49.
Boras may have gotten more aggressive in his negotiations with potential clients after decades of extremely successful contracts.
Is it too much to ask of Holland to find out who has #22 on the RS before coming in and asking. He should have looked it up saw it was Whitlock, a guy who was in the majors all last year and moved on. If it was unused or another spring training body then to mr it’s different.
I see your point, but...I mean, didn't Whitlock not even wear #22 last year? By all accounts, it doesn't sound like Holland strolled into camp and demanded #22. It sounds like he asked Whitlock if it would be ok if he wore 22 and Whitlock said it was fine---and that Holland had no idea that the number meant anything to Whitlock. Which is understandable---it would be weird if he was actually up to date on various players' quirks although I am a little surprised that Holland was so blase about taking up the mantle of legendary Red Sock Rick Porcello but he seems genuinely surprised that Whitlock had an attachment to the number and that if he had known he never would have asked. I also loved his response when asked about Story.
They are going to stick Bradley out there every day aren’t they? I don’t understand not getting someone.
IMO Duran needs at-bats. We need to know what we have with him, before committing to other players. Give him 2 months, and if things aren't working out, we can trade for a replacement. I also wonder whether Dalbec is passable in LF. If Casas is up by June and Dalbec is hitting, rotating him and JD in LF could be a worth shot.
JBJ is here primarily to be a late-inning defensive replacement. If he recovers his hitting, he can start.
JBJ is here primarily to be a late-inning defensive replacement. If he recovers his hitting, he can start.
Comparing projected team WAR, we're still ~10 wins behind the Dodgers and the Yankees. Most of it is from the outfield. We missed out on Suzuki already, so that's done. We need to hope that Verdugo improves, and that Duran is better than what he's projected to be (wRC+ 88, 0.2 WAR). Similar to Whitlock, I think there's a lot of uncertainty regarding Duran's projections because he's not had many at-bats, and he has a new swing.
I'm not sure that prior research is necessary. Holland comes in, asks for 22 and I'm sure he was told that it was taken. It's odd because Holland seems to have not had a particular attachment to that number, but it's not like they ripped it from the kid's back. Whatever happened from that point is between Holland and Whitlock. Odd, bot really a big deal.
For those who thought he might be one of the last remaining FAs that the Sox might pursue, Tommy Pham is off the board.
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2022/03/23/tommy-pham-free-agency-outfielder-signs-reds/7148840001/
https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/mlb/reds/2022/03/23/tommy-pham-free-agency-outfielder-signs-reds/7148840001/
Duran's going to get at-bats. In Worcester. I think he starts the year there and Refsnyder makes the club as the 4th OF. He's not showing much, but he's a vet and he's RHH which provides the balance they need on the bench. Either that or they follow through on talk of using Arroyo into the super-utility role and split the 4th OF spot between him and JD.
The best remaining free agent outfielder is Michael Conforto... No way they give up a draft pick to get him. Maybe an opening day signing as soon as his QO compensation is finished? His decision to decline was a terrible miscalculation...
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I was a fan of this move: a clever way to flex the wallet and buy Binelas and get a phenomenal 4th outfielder for late inning defense to protect a lead…because they certainly aren’t planning to send him out there on the regular. Right?
No doubt. But I was referring to the "THEY AREN'T UPGRADING THE TEAM AND SPENDING MONEY AND ADDING ANY TALENT" posts that overrode this board until that Story changed. Not even a week has passed and @Al Becker is whining that they don't have an upgrade for the outfield.
THERE ARE TWO WEEKS LEFT OF SPRING TRAINING
Sometimes I really wonder what guys are thinking. A guy like Michael Conforto should be jumping at any $100M+ deal that is being offered. So much more downside for non-stars like him. I get these guys and their counsel all like to shoot for the moon but, man, I would be locking it up. Even the surefire stars like Acuna are willing to sacrifice some upside for the guaranteed cash.
Although, even if he signed a prorated "pillow contract" for $10 million in June, is still "set for life" money... Might as well shoot for "nobody in my family ever has to work for eternity" money, I guess?
My concern is most viable pieces seem to be disappearing. I had hoped it would be addressed before that happened. Maybe they go the trade route. I guess if wanting the most competitive team out there we can have is whining, I’m guilty. Just not a big JBJ fan in a starting role.
I see what you did there Lose. I agree they can still add a RH OF, but I moreso agree with RedHawk that they roll with Refsnyder as the 4th OFer.
I agree - barring a trade for Myers, Pinder or Piscotty in the next week or so, Refsnyder seems like a bigger piece of the puzzle.
Refsnyder overhauled his swing last spring and it’s helped. Here’s an article on it from last May:
Now, his batting stance is more crouched, with his hands much higher. He made an adjustment to develop a more fluid motion and transfer his energy towards the middle of the field in his swing.
“I'm trying to get a little bit of a running start, try to have a toe tap where my hands come down with it, so it's an equal and opposite,” Refsnyder said. “As I go forward, my hands start to come back up.”
He noticed an immediate difference. Later, when he measured his exit velocity on a practice homer, he found a nearly 10 mph difference.
regarding swing changes, it is my memory that Duran changed his swing when he first came here as he wanted more loft given that he was a singles hitter at Long Beach St. I believe he had another swing change to sell out for more power coming into last year. Is it my understanding that he is on another swing change this year. Why do I sense that this is too much tinkering. Is this frequency of change commonplace?
I would think they need to add an outfielder if only for depth purposes. The projected Worcester OF, if Refsnyder makes the big league team, would be Cordero, Duran, Christin Stewart, and Johan Mieses. Verdugo pulls a hamstring, or Bradley goes into one of his unplayable slumps, and suddenly you're not far from seeing some real dreck on the major league roster. So, if nothing else, you've got minor league offers out to Jake Marisnick, Juan Lagares, maybe even [eek] Danny Santana.
It is possible that they think Arroyo and/or Dalbec will be a passable LF option to start the year, but I'd be very surprised if they were banking on that.
It is possible that they think Arroyo and/or Dalbec will be a passable LF option to start the year, but I'd be very surprised if they were banking on that.
They'd have signed one by now if they hadn't given the money to the new second baseman. End of story
I understand wanting both worlds of having good production a majority of the game and a defensive replacement late. But the most difficult or high leverage play in the outfield could occur during the early innings with mainly grounders to the infielders or strikeouts with JBJ just working the final outs. To use @johnnywayback 's phrasing above, there is a difference between below average offensive play and unplayable slump. If JBJ is OPS-ing in the .600s with occasional hot streaks, that is a lot more bearable than sitting at .150 with 2 homers on June 1st. I could take a full season of him starting with the former results.
Can't discount JD Martinez's usage in the outfield if they need it. In fact, given his history, we can't discount him playing the outfield on occasion even if there isn't a need.
In a perfect world (which this isn't) we'd have another RH corner OF on this roster, preferably one with good defensive skills and some pop in his bat. That said the Story signing has addressed two needs by strengthening 2nd base as well as the bench and also addresses a future need regardless as to which middle IF position he ends up playing in coming seasons. IMO that was a bigger get than a platoon mate for JBJ and there is still opportunity to address the OF, it's going to come. Perhaps not on our preferred timetable, but there will be a RH outfielder added to the roster. If Refsnyder gets the call and produces then that's great, if not there will be someone else to come in and take his slot. We might have to be patient and get frustrated, but Bloom will do what he feels is best for the long and short term.
A week ago there was so much whining here (yes, whining) that the Red Sox hadn't done anything to upgrade the team. And then they signed Story.
Are you absolutely positively certain there are zero suitable opportunities for the Sox to improve the OF as of March 24th? None whatsoever? Not a chance something else can happen? The roster is basically frozen with the guys in camp?
If so, then I agree with you, this is a disappointing Opening Day roster. If not, then can we let recent history perhaps repeat itself with another move? And then complain when April 7th comes without something better out there?
I have been thinking about this, and I think what I would do is start the season with Bradley and Refsnyder splitting outfield time, with Duran and Cordero in AAA.
Any of those guys have the upside to be a good starting rightfielder. Milwaukee Bradley was a disaster, but if Bradley can get back to even his "bad" years in Boston, he was a 2 WAR player — that's all Renfroe was. Maybe Refsnyder's swing change has an impact. Cordero or Duran are both wildly toolsy, and maybe they show us something in AAA.
If someone steps forward and takes the job, perfect. If not, it should be an easy place to arrange an addition by trade.
Any of those guys have the upside to be a good starting rightfielder. Milwaukee Bradley was a disaster, but if Bradley can get back to even his "bad" years in Boston, he was a 2 WAR player — that's all Renfroe was. Maybe Refsnyder's swing change has an impact. Cordero or Duran are both wildly toolsy, and maybe they show us something in AAA.
If someone steps forward and takes the job, perfect. If not, it should be an easy place to arrange an addition by trade.