Red Sox in season discussion

DeadlySplitter

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Hyers was great in 2018, the Red Sox won that playoffs with mostly offense. I really don't think he's the issue.
 

cantor44

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The Red Sox had the third highest team OPS in MLB in 2021.

1. Blue Jays .796
2. Astros .784
3. Red Sox .777

The hitting coach isn’t a problem.
True, they did. But you do recognize the swings and misses out of the zone, yes? The lack of situational hitting? With a more disciplined approach, maybe they could have been #1. They have a ton of talent. Is the team approach making the most of that talent?
 

YTF

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The Red Sox had the third highest team OPS in MLB in 2021.

1. Blue Jays .796
2. Astros .784
3. Red Sox .777

The hitting coach isn’t a problem.
I'm guessing that much of that OPS would be attributed to the first 3/12 months of the season and September. I might be wrong but it seems there was pretty much a solid 6-7 week stretch where much of the offense was MIA. I'm not ready to pin that on Heyers, but there was a lot of bad ball chasing going on during that period and at any given time during that stretch there were no more than 4-5 guys in the lineup who seem semi-productive at the plate. Of course that wasn't the only issue as the pitching dropped off bigly at that time and the team seemed to be playing it's worst fundamental baseball. Oh and that was the beginning of the Covid crisis, which oddly enough after a week or so the team started playing better baseball.
 

simplicio

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Relying on Houck and Whitlock to both transition smoothly to starting for a full season feels risky; I think we see a play for another starter with a track record.
 

absintheofmalaise

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Bloom on extending Devers and/or renegotiating w/Bogaerts: "Both are cornerstone players for us. They are guys you want here as long as you can have them here. ... They're going to be a huge part of our success going forward. ... We want them here and we want to win w/them."
 

54thMA

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Other than winning 4 rings and making it to 7 ALCS this century you mean? As you said the Sox of the 21st century have not developed much young cost controlled pitching. They have however developed a shit ton of young cost controlled position players, which are just as valuable.
I don't understand the futility comment at all.

The Dodgers? They won a whopping one WS title in this latest run of "success" thanks in large part to a 60 game schedule. They've spent a small fortune have next to nothing to show for it.
 

MtPleasant Paul

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Alex Speier @alexspeier
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Bloom on extending Devers and/or renegotiating w/Bogaerts: "Both are cornerstone players for us. They are guys you want here as long as you can have them here. ... They're going to be a huge part of our success going forward. ... We want them here and we want to win w/them."
And, Chaim, I think they want to stay here too. So keep them together, keep them in the infield, and give them long term contracts of 10 and 6 years. There is some risk to this, of course, but there is a reasonable expectation that we can keep our All Stars and at a home town discount too.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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scottyno

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I don't understand the futility comment at all.

The Dodgers? They won a whopping one WS title in this latest run of "success" thanks in large part to a 60 game schedule. They've spent a small fortune have next to nothing to show for it.
The point was that the Sox this century proved that you don't need homegrown pitching to win, you just need cheap talent anywhere (preferably homegrown) period
 

JimD

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The 'can't develop homegrown pitching' criticism, while valid, is also blunted at least somewhat when you can recognize and pilfer starting pitching talents like Eduardo Rodriguez and Nick Pivetta in July 31st deadline deals, not to mention unearthing a rule 5 pickup like Garrett Whitlock.
 

54thMA

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The point was that the Sox this century proved that you don't need homegrown pitching to win, you just need cheap talent anywhere (preferably homegrown) period
Sorry; I understood what you meant, I don't get what the poster you were quoting meant as like you said, they've won 4 WS titles and been to 7 ALCS series the past 18 years, it's not like they haven't been successful with their approach.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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….and 2 years allowed for Bloom to draft and then develop pitching??? Seems like at the minimum 2 years for a college graduate draftee to make it…. 4-5 for those straight outta HS and international drafts.
 

The Talented Allen Ripley

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The poster beating that drum is a know-nothing bozo and has been suspended for a week to get his/her act together, I don't think we need to keep refuting their dumbass argument.
 
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scottyno

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Sorry; I understood what you meant, I don't get what the poster you were quoting meant as like you said, they've won 4 WS titles and been to 7 ALCS series the past 18 years, it's not like they haven't been successful with their approach.
Gotcha, yeah I don't know what he's on about. There are clearly different ways to build a winner. The 2004 team was built in a weird probably very hard to repeat way with almost no homegrown talent. The other 3 winning teams were built on a lot of homegrown guys, just not many of them happened to be pitchers.
 

RedOctober3829

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Here’s the first pieces of real info to come out. They will be prioritizing a Devers extension, Bogaerts plans to opt out after next year but wants to stay in Boston, and is open to moving to 2nd or 3rd. This is a huge piece of news as it could open up Boston to one of the big time SS FAs.

Bloom also says they haven’t decided whether to offer the QO to ERod and there is mutual interest in bringing Schwarber back.
Devers is eligible for arbitration for the first time this offseason and the Boston front office will prioritize contract extension talks with the 25-year-old slugger, team sources told ESPN.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32473690/boston-red-sox-evaluate-futures-cornerstone-players-rafael-devers-xander-bogaerts
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Here’s the first pieces of real info to come out. They will be prioritizing a Devers extension, Bogaerts plans to opt out after next year but wants to stay in Boston, and is open to moving to 2nd or 3rd. This is a huge piece of news as it could open up Boston to one of the big time SS FAs.

Bloom also says they haven’t decided whether to offer the QO to ERod and there is mutual interest in bringing Schwarber back.
Devers is eligible for arbitration for the first time this offseason and the Boston front office will prioritize contract extension talks with the 25-year-old slugger, team sources told ESPN.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32473690/boston-red-sox-evaluate-futures-cornerstone-players-rafael-devers-xander-bogaerts
I'd pump the brakes on Bogaerts changing positions just yet. It says he's open to moving "down the road". I don't read that as meaning next season to accommodate Correa or Seager or someone like that. If he's really planning to opt-out after next year (and who could blame him?), his best chance to maximize his payday is to remain at SS at least through next season. Once he's got that new contract in hand that likely pays him through age 36-38+, of course he'd be more open to changing positions to help the team.
 

jon abbey

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Here’s the first pieces of real info to come out. They will be prioritizing a Devers extension, Bogaerts plans to opt out after next year but wants to stay in Boston, and is open to moving to 2nd or 3rd. This is a huge piece of news as it could open up Boston to one of the big time SS FAs.
It opens it up positionally but makes it a lot harder financially, you can only give out so many $200M deals.
 

scottyno

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Please tell me that any of the other pieces of that deal are going to amount to more than a serviceable minor league player.

The fans in Worcester will be getting their money's worth; those at Fenway, not so much.
Winckowski had a pretty good year between AA and AAA this year in 112 innings and is only 23, the other 3 prospects are years from knowing if they're worth anything or not.
 

scottyno

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Bloom also says they haven’t decided whether to offer the QO to ERod and there is mutual interest in bringing Schwarber back.
Devers is eligible for arbitration for the first time this offseason and the Boston front office will prioritize contract extension talks with the 25-year-old slugger, team sources told ESPN.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32473690/boston-red-sox-evaluate-futures-cornerstone-players-rafael-devers-xander-bogaerts
I'd be very disappointed if they don't offer Erod the QO. I doubt he takes it, but having him for 1 more year would help out a ton. They get a year to figure out what they want to do with Houck and Whitlock, to see how Sale bounces back, and to see if they want to keep Erod and Eovaldi beyond 2022.

If he doesn't take it then at least they get a comp pick if he leaves and they can still work out a longer term deal if they're interested.
 

cantor44

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Here’s the first pieces of real info to come out. They will be prioritizing a Devers extension, Bogaerts plans to opt out after next year but wants to stay in Boston, and is open to moving to 2nd or 3rd. This is a huge piece of news as it could open up Boston to one of the big time SS FAs.

Bloom also says they haven’t decided whether to offer the QO to ERod and there is mutual interest in bringing Schwarber back.
Devers is eligible for arbitration for the first time this offseason and the Boston front office will prioritize contract extension talks with the 25-year-old slugger, team sources told ESPN.
https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/32473690/boston-red-sox-evaluate-futures-cornerstone-players-rafael-devers-xander-bogaerts
Seems to me Semien might be a better fit than Correa or Seager. He's a bit older, so likely will sign for fewer years. He can play all over the infield - meaning he can play second in 2022, move to short if X signs elsewhere in 2023 (or if X re-signs and moves to third in 2023), and maybe would be coming to the end of his contract when Mayer is ready ....
 

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Seems to me Semien might be a better fit than Correa or Seager. He's a bit older, so likely will sign for fewer years. He can play all over the infield - meaning he can play second in 2022, move to short if X signs elsewhere in 2023 (or if X re-signs and moves to third in 2023), and maybe would be coming to the end of his contract when Mayer is ready ....
Semien will likely be in high demand for these very reasons. Also, grain of salt and all, but there are certainly rumblings that he wants to go back out west
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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I'd be very disappointed if they don't offer Erod the QO. I doubt he takes it, but having him for 1 more year would help out a ton. They get a year to figure out what they want to do with Houck and Whitlock, to see how Sale bounces back, and to see if they want to keep Erod and Eovaldi beyond 2022.

If he doesn't take it then at least they get a comp pick if he leaves and they can still work out a longer term deal if they're interested.
I can almost guarantee they will offer him a QO. They’d be dullards not to
 

cantor44

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Semien will likely be in high demand for these very reasons. Also, grain of salt and all, but there are certainly rumblings that he wants to go back out west
I know he said on record he was very interested in signing with the Red Sox last year, but they went with Kiké instead. He may be in demand, but the Red Sox are a big market team with lots of resources and winning ways, so, surely they could compete. BUT ... if he wants to be on the West Coast, whattaya gonna do?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Semien would be great, but isn’t Chris Taylor a more realistic target to be this year’s Kiki? He can play anywhere, would provide depth across a plethora of positions. He’s 31, so a 2-3 year deal probably does it. Add him and my other binky Mark Canha and you’d have incredible versatility.
 

nvalvo

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From ESPN's Joon Lee's writeup of today's press conference, some news:

The Red Sox also face a looming crossroads with Bogaerts, who can opt out of the final three years of his six-year, $120 million contract at the end of 2022. According to sources close to Bogaerts, the shortstop currently plans on opting out of the contract after 2022, but hopes to remain in Boston and finish his career with the Red Sox. The three-time All-Star shortstop is also open to moving to second or third base down the road.
 

cantor44

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Semien would be great, but isn’t Chris Taylor a more realistic target to be this year’s Kiki? He can play anywhere, would provide depth across a plethora of positions. He’s 31, so a 2-3 year deal probably does it. Add him and my other binky Mark Canha and you’d have incredible versatility.
Taylor hasn't had any seasons as good as Semien's 2019 and 2021. But, their ages and career numbers are pretty damn close. Given that he didn't just hit 45 HRs, he'd likely come cheaper. Then again, he didn't just hit 45 HRs.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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And I predict he's going to Stephen Drew State Prison if he doesn't take it.
Bit sure what you mean…. But I suspect that he’ll get better offers than the Sox QO. But I’m wondering if the Sox offer him a QO… can they also then just offer to beat whoever else may want to just beat that?
Say if another team offers 3/60 can the Sox then offer 3/66 after?
Am I overthinking this?
 

Yo La Tengo

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I anticipate the Sox may make a move or two and then wait... and wait... and wait this offseason. With their current lineup, they can make improvements in lots of different ways. So, I expect Bloom to be patient and look for deals.

Based on Bloom's interest in flexibility, it does feel like Chris Taylor will be a target.
 

johnnywayback

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I couldn't possibly be more on board with a Chris Taylor signing. Give him the Zobrist deal -- 4/60. Promise him he gets first crack at being the starting 2B, with the potential to move to LF when either a) there's a tough lefty and you want Verdugo out of the lineup or b) Renfroe is slumping and you want to move Verdugo to RF. He's a perfect fit for the team, especially if they manage to swap out Martinez for Schwarber and the lineup becomes very LH-heavy (especially when Casas arrives).

The other thing is that I want them to acquire two starters. I don't think it's a good idea to count on Whitlock going from 70 innings post-TJ to 170. So make him the relief ace and be ready to stretch him out mid-season if (when) a starter goes down. Houck I think is a reliever long-term anyway, and he could be a seriously great one, good enough that we don't need to spend up on a Kenley Jansen or Raisel Iglesias.

Which two starters? Easy answer would be Gausman (say 5/110) and ERod (the Eovaldi deal: 4/68). But if some combination of Duran, Downs, and lesser pieces could pry free one of the Marlins' starters or another cost-controlled young gun, we could pocket the Gausman money to use on extending Devers and splurging on another closer.

Like, look at this:

Hernandez CF
Schwarber DH
Bogaerts SS
Devers 3B
Taylor 2B
Verdugo LF
Renfroe RF
Vazquez C
Dalbec 1B

Bench: Plawecki, Arroyo, FA OF who can play CF, FA LHH 1B.

Sale*, Eovaldi, two of [Gausman, Erod, Pablo Lopez], Pivetta
Iglesias, Houck, Whitlock, Barnes, Brasier, Sawamura, Taylor*, Davis*

That's an affordable team with no obvious holes and financial room to upgrade at mid-season.
 

nighthob

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Bit sure what you mean…. But I suspect that he’ll get better offers than the Sox QO. But I’m wondering if the Sox offer him a QO… can they also then just offer to beat whoever else may want to just beat that?
Say if another team offers 3/60 can the Sox then offer 3/66 after?
Am I overthinking this?
The QO just means that if he signs elsewhere Boston gets a draft pick. They can sign him to whatever contract they’d like. And if the Yankees offer 6/150 for him they can just pocket the pick, re-sign Schwarber to play 1B and then use Dalbec to trade for more pitching. Oh, and draft another key pitcher from the Yankees in the Rule V draft. :D
 

cantor44

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I'd be very disappointed if they don't offer Erod the QO. I doubt he takes it, but having him for 1 more year would help out a ton. They get a year to figure out what they want to do with Houck and Whitlock, to see how Sale bounces back, and to see if they want to keep Erod and Eovaldi beyond 2022.

If he doesn't take it then at least they get a comp pick if he leaves and they can still work out a longer term deal if they're interested.
I totally agree. The QO is more than the annual average salary he'd likely get at this point. He'd have the opportunity to pitch at full strength for a full season (as opposed to recovering from his lost COVID season), put up less mixed-message numbers and establish greater value for himself ...Then, as you say, Sox have more time to see about Houck and Whitlock, but also get a little more info on HIM. Seems like it could be in everyone's best interest. Plus, if he declines, they get the pick.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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E-Rod’s career numbers to date are very similar to Zach Wheelers two years ago, and he got 5/118. He’s only 28. He doesn’t need a pillow contract, he should be taking the most guaranteed money he can get.

Of course, with the CBA expiring, anything can happen but if E-Rod can’t do better than this QO and JD can’t beat his option, than it will be a crazy buyers market and hopefully the Sox take advantage.