Red Sox Hot Stove Rumors

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Savin Hillbilly

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MakMan44 said:
Considering what they just got for Heyward and that Upton is worth less, I think the Sox have the resources to make a play if they want to. Whether they should is a different question. I'm on the fence but I think I'd rather have him than Cespedes in LF.
 
The Braves do not appear to think that Upton is worth less:
 
Braves Shopping Justin Upton; Asking Price Higher than Heyward
 
Upton is the better hitter of the two, though Heyward is the better outfielder and is younger. Seems like more or less of a tossup to me. I think people tend to undervalue Upton a little because of his early hype, which he hasn't quite lived up to.
 

MakMan44

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That's my bad for not clicking the link. Personally, I think Heyward is worth more, so I'd pass unless the asking price dropped.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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MakMan44 said:
Considering what they just got for Heyward and that Upton is worth less, I think the Sox have the resources to make a play if they want to. Whether they should is a different question. I'm on the fence but I think I'd rather have him than Cespedes in LF.
Yeah, me too.  He just turned 27 and it's getting so difficult to get FAs under 30 so this may be their chance.  3.9 WAR last year. wRC+ 133.  29 jacks, 27 the year before.  Lifetime .354 OBP.  I'd rather have him than Yoenis.  Other than Heyward, there's not much in the free agent pool next year under the age of 30.  I hope the Sox at least take a sniff.
 

BornToRun

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Hee Sox Choi said:
Yeah, me too.  He just turned 27 and it's getting so difficult to get FAs under 30 so this may be their chance.  3.9 WAR last year. wRC+ 133.  29 jacks, 27 the year before.  Lifetime .354 OBP.  I'd rather have him than Yoenis.  Other than Heyward, there's not much in the free agent pool next year under the age of 30.  I hope the Sox at least take a sniff.
Definitely. I know we have an OF logjam but Justin Upton is the kind of player you find a way to make room for.
 

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TeddyLepcio said:
 
You may want to read the title of this thread.
I did read the title of this thread however the content of this thread is more about everyone's thoughts as opposed to rumors
 
 
That wouldn't be so bad, Teddy, if the thoughts were about the actual rumors. But, as we've learned over the years ...
 

Snodgrass'Muff

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I love the idea of trading for Upton, I just don't love it right now. The Red Sox have some serous holes to fix and diverting time and resources to obtaining Upton is probably not the best path to a contending team in 2015. They need to focus on fixing the rotation and upgrading third base. If they didn't need two starting pitchers an a third basemen, I'd be all for also working to clear the logjam in the outfield to make room for an Upton trade, but there are so many steps necessary to get from here to Upton in left field that I'd be worried about them coming up short in the rotation and the infield because of it.
 
The upgrade from Cespedes to Upton isn't big enough to pass on a pitcher like Latos or Ross (or insert your preferred guy here). Yes, they have the chips to trade for a 1A starter and Upton, but the farm system would be extremely thin after that.
 

SoxFanForsyth

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Hee Sox Choi said:
"Justin Upton will be moved."
 
Are we interested?  Could we deal for him and sign him long-term?  (yes, we have lots of OFs but there will be a hole next year and we can always deal Yoenis pretty easily).
 
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/11/braves-shopping-justin-upton-asking-price-higher-than-heyward.html
No thanks. Upton (3.9 fWar in 2014, 3.1 fWar steamer 2015) isn't a huge upgrade over Cespedes. The return on Cespedes wouldn't be close to the cost on Upton, IMO. Upton would cost an Owens or Rodriguez plus a Coyle, and maybe more given that they want more than they got for Heyward.

I would rather have Cespedes this year, then sign Upton next year, and keep Owens and the crew. The upgrade in LF isn't enough to merit the loss you'd take on prospects.

Not to mention you have no bargaining power ever. Trade Cespedes before acquiring JUp? Price goes up because your need is bigger. Trade for JUp and have Cespedes? Offers go down because it's obvious you supply is forcing your hand.

Too much of a lateral move with a dip in prospect value for my taste.
 

LahoudOrBillyC

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SoxFanForsyth said:
Not to mention you have no bargaining power ever. Trade Cespedes before acquiring JUp? Price goes up because your need is bigger. Trade for JUp and have Cespedes? Offers go down because it's obvious you supply is forcing your hand.
 
I have never seen any evidence that negotiations between adults venture into the "a-ha, you really need this now don't you!" territory.  Teams aren't this stupid, in my opinion.
 

grimshaw

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Upton would be great for the Royals at only 8.5 this year.  Smaller park too, so Upton would probably be worth a little more in the field.
I don't see a huge need or a fit in Boston, and I don't see him asking for less length or AAV than Lester for an extension.
 

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grimshaw said:
Upton would be great for the Royals at only 8.5 this year.  Smaller park too, so Upton would probably be worth a little more in the field.
I don't see a huge need or a fit in Boston, and I don't see him asking for less length or AAV than Lester for an extension.
 
Justin Upton has great RH power (with elite upside) and is only 26. He's a guy Boston should absolutely be looking to acquire and lock up long-term.
 
For the right price, of course.
 

SoxFanForsyth

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LahoudOrBillyC said:
 
I have never seen any evidence that negotiations between adults venture into the "a-ha, you really need this now don't you!" territory.  Teams aren't this stupid, in my opinion.
Huh? You don't think that teams asking price is based on need??
 

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grimshaw said:
6 years 51.2 mill.  BJ makes 15  I'll double check Kaufman.
 
You're talking about AAV with regards to Upton, which is irrelevant for a team like the Royals that's nowhere near the luxury tax limit. His actual 2015 salary ($14.5m) is what matters.
 

LahoudOrBillyC

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SoxFanForsyth said:
Huh? You don't think that teams asking price is based on need??
 
No.  I don't believe the Braves would say, "Oh you want Upton?  I see you have a lot of outfielders and you already have Cespedes for left field.  I guess we have no leverage, so we are going to reduce our price and ask for a couple less prospects."  Which is just as ridiculous, as, "Oh, you want Upton?  Ha-ha, you just traded Cespedes, so sorry, it looks like your price is now much higher!"  These are not children here.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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LahoudOrBillyC said:
 
I have never seen any evidence that negotiations between adults venture into the "a-ha, you really need this now don't you!" territory.  Teams aren't this stupid, in my opinion.
Are you forgetting Ruben Amaro Jr is a GM?
 

grimshaw

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foulkehampshire said:
 
Justin Upton has great RH power (with elite upside) and is only 26. He's a guy Boston should absolutely be looking to acquire and lock up long-term.
 
For the right price, of course.
Yes he is, but they need a lot rearranging first.  Nap, Pedey, Xander, Cespedes, Vasquez, Craig, and Betts are all righties who are going to be in the lineup (maybe not Craig as much or Cespedes at all)
 
I'm not saying don't go after him, I'm saying he isn't a major need right now since they need left handed hitters and pitching.
 

SoxFanForsyth

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LahoudOrBillyC said:
 
No.  I don't believe the Braves would say, "Oh you want Upton?  I see you have a lot of outfielders and you already have Cespedes for left field.  I guess we have no leverage, so we are going to reduce our price and ask for a couple less prospects."  Which is just as ridiculous, as, "Oh, you want Upton?  Ha-ha, you just traded Cespedes, so sorry, it looks like your price is now much higher!"  These are not children here.
I disagree. A team would never lower their asking price obviously but if we were selling Lester back in July and the A's dished Shark to make room for him, Cherrington would be an idiot not to bump the asking price.

either way, it's a tough flip, given that you're required to trade for one player and also get the return on Cespedes that makes the trade worth it
 

LahoudOrBillyC

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SoxFanForsyth said:
I disagree. A team would never lower their asking price obviously but if we were selling Lester back in July and the A's dished Shark to make room for him, Cherrington would be an idiot not to bump the asking price.
 
Hmm.  Let's say Cherington and his staff decided that a certain collection of players from the A's was sufficient to make the Red Sox better.  Let's call this collection "X".  Now, let's say the A's suddenly trade Shark away, waiting for Cherington's phone call.  At this point, Cherington could tell Beane, "OK, now I want X+Y."  There is no law against that.  But hopefully, Beane is not that stupid, and would laugh at young Ben.  And hopefully Cherington is not too stupid to shrug and accept X, which he already decided would improve his team.
 

Hendu for Kutch

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SoxFanForsyth said:
I disagree. A team would never lower their asking price obviously but if we were selling Lester back in July and the A's dished Shark to make room for him, Cherrington would be an idiot not to bump the asking price.

either way, it's a tough flip, given that you're required to trade for one player and also get the return on Cespedes that makes the trade worth it
 
That literally only works if there's only one potential trade partner.  if there are at least two teams, then they're bidding against each other, not some perceived need or lack thereof.
 
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Hendu for Kutch said:
 
That literally only works if there's only one potential trade partner.  if there are at least two teams, then they're bidding against each other, not some perceived need or lack thereof.
 
Exactly.  The Braves will have interest in Justin Upton from multiple teams.  Should the Braves elect to move him (they don't have to), they will do so for the pieces that they feel will most benefit the Braves.  Whether or not the team they are trading him to has a glut or paucity of OFs is irrelevant to the Braves.  All that matters to them is if the package they are receiving in return satisfies the return they were looking for. 
 

grimshaw

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
The Braves do not appear to think that Upton is worth less:
 
Braves Shopping Justin Upton; Asking Price Higher than Heyward
 
Upton is the better hitter of the two, though Heyward is the better outfielder and is younger. Seems like more or less of a tossup to me. I think people tend to undervalue Upton a little because of his early hype, which he hasn't quite lived up to.
Edit: Beat me to it
 

ehaz

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I'd rather stick with Yoenis than give up the bounty the Braves are likely seeking + an extension for Upton.  He's no longer a 23 year old kid with room to grow, while he's a good hitter, what you see is very likely what you get.  And that isn't worth Owens, Cespedes +++ and 100 million.
 

E5 Yaz

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soxhop411 said:
It seems way to quiet out of BOS.
 
Why? If there's no activity after the Winter Meetings, then this makes some sense
 

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foulkehampshire said:
 
Justin Upton has great RH power (with elite upside) and is only 26. He's a guy Boston should absolutely be looking to acquire and lock up long-term.
 
For the right price, of course.
 
He's 27. Not sure that changes your point though.
 
Like was said on MLB Network: "What's rare is valuable. Upton has RH power. That's rare."  I think he'd crush in Fenway.
 
I'd like him, but Cespedes would likely have to go, and I'm not sure where he'd go or what we'd get.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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I don't think it would be hard to find someone to take Cespedes for a prospect or 2 and then move those prospects along with 1 or 2 of our own to get Upton.  I should have made it clear in regards to Upton - Obviously you don't deal Cespedes first and you don't trade for Upton unless you can get a long-term extension.  Plus, I don't care if he projects any better, the guy is a major right-handed threat - right now - and under 30.  12th in HRs, 24th in wRC+ in a park that usually suppresses runs a little bit.  
 
It's very interesting to see all the teams floating players with 1 year left on their contracts that they know they can't re-sign.  Tampa Bay did that for years.  To get a package like Shelby Miller + Tyrell Jenkins for ONE year of Heyward (when you know he's leaving) adds a lot of value to your team.  Especially if you know you're going to be bad.
 
It makes a lot of sense to deal Cespedes who doesn't want to re-sign in Boston and can't get a QO anyway.  Just depends on what you can get and can you extend Upton.  Watching him hit in Fenway would be good times.
 

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DrewDawg said:
 
He's 27. Not sure that changes your point though.
 
Like was said on MLB Network: "What's rare is valuable. Upton has RH power. That's rare."  I think he'd crush in Fenway.
 
I'd like him, but Cespedes would likely have to go, and I'm not sure where he'd go or what we'd get.
 
 
Upton is clearly a better hitter than Cespedes but HRs are about even over the past 3 years (73-71). Considering you would have to give up something valuable for 1 year of Upton I'm not sure the upgrade is significant enough. Could be worth it if you can get similar value in return on Cespedes than you give up for Upton, which is doubtful.
 

lxt

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Okay get the spit balls ready. Why not keep Cespedes and go after Upton. Cespedes in LF & Upton in RF. Victorino, Betts & Castillo get CF and backup roles. JBJ does some time in AAA remembering how to hit. Nava & Craig would be out of options.
 
If Cespedes wants to leave then extend Upton. If he wants to stay then Victorino comes off the books.
 
The Sox would still need to add Lester & Miller and trade for another arm (Put your name here). Not sure about 3B but Panda or Hanley would not be needed ... may be Headley would be enough.
 
There is no doubt Upton will be costly with regards to prospects but considering the offense he brings it may be worthwhile.
 
Think about it: Betts, Castillo, Victorino, Napoli, Ortiz, Pedroia, Bogaerts, Cespedes, Upton, Holt, Headley & Vasquez.
 

67WasBest

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lxt said:
Okay get the spit balls ready. Why not keep Cespedes and go after Upton. Cespedes in LF & Upton in RF. Victorino, Betts & Castillo get CF and backup roles. JBJ does some time in AAA remembering how to hit. Nava & Craig would be out of options.
 
If Cespedes wants to leave then extend Upton. If he wants to stay then Victorino comes off the books.
 
The Sox would still need to add Lester & Miller and trade for another arm (Put your name here). Not sure about 3B but Panda or Hanley would not be needed ... may be Headley would be enough.
 
There is no doubt Upton will be costly with regards to prospects but considering the offense he brings it may be worthwhile.
 
Think about it: Betts, Castillo, Victorino, Napoli, Ortiz, Pedroia, Bogaerts, Cespedes, Upton, Holt, Headley & Vasquez.
No
 

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lxt said:
Okay get the spit balls ready. Why not keep Cespedes and go after Upton. Cespedes in LF & Upton in RF. Victorino, Betts & Castillo get CF and backup roles.
 
Just no. Neither Betts nor Castillo should be in backup roles, and under this scenario, one of them has to be.
 
How about this. We sign Lester, another pitcher, and a third baseman, and we go at it?
 

E5 Yaz

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lxt said:
Okay get the spit balls ready. Why not keep Cespedes and go after Upton. Cespedes in LF & Upton in RF. Victorino, Betts & Castillo get CF and backup roles. JBJ does some time in AAA remembering how to hit. Nava & Craig would be out of options.
 
If Cespedes wants to leave then extend Upton. If he wants to stay then Victorino comes off the books.
 
The Sox would still need to add Lester & Miller and trade for another arm (Put your name here). Not sure about 3B but Panda or Hanley would not be needed ... may be Headley would be enough.
 
There is no doubt Upton will be costly with regards to prospects but considering the offense he brings it may be worthwhile.
 
Think about it: Betts, Castillo, Victorino, Napoli, Ortiz, Pedroia, Bogaerts, Cespedes, Upton, Holt, Headley & Vasquez.
 
This type of caca-phony is precisely what Teddy was talking about earlier. This isn't a rumor, it's idle speculation that sets off various tangents into the primordial ooze.
 

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Yeah, I think there's ultimately no good reason to be concocting specific trade proposals. They never go down the way you guess, and it just becomes a nitpick-fest that no one wants to read. I mean, I get it, I kick them around in my head too but they're just always dumber when you put them out into the world, and pretty much guarantee derailing substantive back-and-forth.
 
That being said--Webster and Holt for Upton. Get it done, Theo.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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lxt said:
Okay get the spit balls ready. Why not keep Cespedes and go after Upton. Cespedes in LF & Upton in RF. Victorino, Betts & Castillo get CF and backup roles. JBJ does some time in AAA remembering how to hit. Nava & Craig would be out of options.
 
If Cespedes wants to leave then extend Upton. If he wants to stay then Victorino comes off the books.
 
The Sox would still need to add Lester & Miller and trade for another arm (Put your name here). Not sure about 3B but Panda or Hanley would not be needed ... may be Headley would be enough.
 
There is no doubt Upton will be costly with regards to prospects but considering the offense he brings it may be worthwhile.
 
Think about it: Betts, Castillo, Victorino, Napoli, Ortiz, Pedroia, Bogaerts, Cespedes, Upton, Holt, Headley & Vasquez.
 
Spitballs engaged.
 
Replacing Cespedes with Upton at a substantial prospect cost is probably not a good idea.
 
Adding Upton to Cespedes at a substantial prospect cost, and increasing our already problematic OF logjam in the process, is an incredibly bad idea.
 
It's like the difference between playing with matches and diving into a volcano.
 

benhogan

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lxt said:
Okay get the spit balls ready. Why not keep Cespedes and go after Upton. Cespedes in LF & Upton in RF. Victorino, Betts & Castillo get CF and backup roles. JBJ does some time in AAA remembering how to hit. Nava & Craig would be out of options.
 
If Cespedes wants to leave then extend Upton. If he wants to stay then Victorino comes off the books.
 
The Sox would still need to add Lester & Miller and trade for another arm (Put your name here). Not sure about 3B but Panda or Hanley would not be needed ... may be Headley would be enough.
 
There is no doubt Upton will be costly with regards to prospects but considering the offense he brings it may be worthwhile.
 
Think about it: Betts, Castillo, Victorino, Napoli, Ortiz, Pedroia, Bogaerts, Cespedes, Upton, Holt, Headley & Vasquez.
Not really a good use of resources or spitballs.
 
We have plenty of RHH OFers on the 40 man already: Cespedes. Betts. Craig. Victorino. Castillo. Brentz.
 
As Ras said, Lester, SP #2 and a 3rd basemen. 
 

lxt

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E5 Yaz said:
 
This type of caca-phony is precisely what Teddy was talking about earlier. This isn't a rumor, it's idle speculation that sets off various tangents into the primordial ooze.
Cool wording. I never said it was rumor. Although, the rumor is about Upton being available. What I'm saying is rather than speculate about trading Cespedes in order to add Upton keep them both. The c[SIZE=medium]acophony of thought can be a most disconcerting one.[/SIZE]
 

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lxt said:
Cool wording. I never said it was rumor. Although, the rumor is about Upton being available. What I'm saying is rather than speculate about trading Cespedes in order to add Upton keep them both. The c[SIZE=medium]acophony of thought can be a most disconcerting one.[/SIZE]
What thread are you in?
 

lxt

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Darnell's Son said:
What thread are you in?
Red Sox Hot Stove Rumors to be exact.
 
E5 Yaz said:
 
This type of caca-phony is precisely what Teddy was talking about earlier. This isn't a rumor, it's idle speculation that sets off various tangents into the primordial ooze.
I was stating that what I offered was not a rumor within itself. Nor is it any worse idle speculation then others offered. I simple offered an alternative idle speculation based on a rumor.
 

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lxt said:
Red Sox Hot Stove Rumors to be exact.
 
I was stating that what I offered was not a rumor within itself. Nor is it any worse idle speculation then others offered. I simple offered an alternative idle speculation based on a rumor.
 
Their point is that this wasn't a rumor and was barely connected to a rumor. Idle speculation probably belongs in the 2015 Red Sox thread, or even not posted. 
 
The key rule at sosh is to not suck. We all break that rule from time to time, but if your idle speculation involves moving a bunch of guys around to get a guy who isn't a franchise changer, then chances are your idea sucks.
 

lxt

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Rasputin said:
 
Their point is that this wasn't a rumor and was barely connected to a rumor. Idle speculation probably belongs in the 2015 Red Sox thread, or even not posted. 
 
The key rule at sosh is to not suck. We all break that rule from time to time, but if your idle speculation involves moving a bunch of guys around to get a guy who isn't a franchise changer, then chances are your idea sucks.
Agree. Just a thought that escaped. Not sure if this idle speculation concerning the Upton rumor deserves such wrath but hey this is SoSH
Rasputin said:
 
Just no. Neither Betts nor Castillo should be in backup roles, and under this scenario, one of them has to be.
 
How about this. We sign Lester, another pitcher, and a third baseman, and we go at it?
I think we already agreed on this option. We just don't necessarily agree who those others are after Lester.
 

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lxt said:
Agree. Just a thought that escaped. Not sure if this idle speculation concerning the Upton rumor deserves such wrath but hey this is SoSH .
It's not wrath, just a suggestion that this wasn't the best thread for your speculation. To be fair, you probably won't be the last one to hear this message, we've all been getting bad at keeping this thread to just rumors.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Not to pile on, but it isn't wildly unrealistic to think Betts will out perform Cespedes and Upton in 2015.

Seems a thread made specifically for made up trade proposals would help.
 
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