Red Sox Hot Stove Rumors
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No, I heard Jim Bowden say it on Inside Pitch yesterday that the Sox have called on Ross and Cashner.DrewDawg said:
Wonder what it would take to get both of them? Would most certainly round out the rotation.Corsi said:
i really dont think we have anything that would interest them. their pitching roatation is strong, they have good pitching depth in the minors(with more elite high end talent) and are set in the OF for quite some time with Harper and Werth. They have Span next year and Michael Taylor who is supposed to be a "GG caliber" CF in AAA who demolished the league last year(they wont be interested in a JBJ package. Rendon is their 3B, Ryan Zimmerman has to play 1B for years. The only potential holes they have are 2B or 3B. They could trade one of them to the Cubs for an elite middle infielder. Maybe we could start a three way trade where the mariners get cespedes, we get zimmermann or fister(prop fister) and the nats get brad miller. i think we would need another team for a trade with the nats to work, their needs dont match up well with what we can offer
Don't think the Nats would sell both given that they are still trying to compete, but I would say if you went maybe a Brian Johnson, Will Middlebrooks, and Devin Marrero for Zimmerman, that would get close to landing him. One year guy, so not sure I'd give up elite talent. Marrero can replace Desmond after 2015. Johnson slots in the back end of the rotation. Middlebrooks is a flier.lxt said:
Acquire him now and you get the QO for him, which would absorb the cost of the prospects. May also be able to swing a pen guy in the deal.
Hard to picture both being available given that this is clearly a retooling trade for the Nats not a rebuild.lxt said:
Zimmerman is one guy I'd be tempted to give Betts for, if only because I think his HoF level control bodes very well for his ability to age gracefully.
SoxFanForsyth said:
i really doubt that would get him. if they are trading one of their pitchers it is because they dont think they can resign him which means they may be willing to throw some money at Ian Desmond. anthony rendon is waaay better than middlebrooks and the nats have several guys in the minors who could be said to project as brian johnson types(even if they trade one of their pitchers, idk if brian johnson would make their rotation). if push comes to shove they can sign asdrubal cabrera for cheap and throw him at second. or start danny espinosa who is essentially their version of will middlebrooks.
edit: and that trade does nothing to make them better this year. if they trade him either of them they are gonna want someone who can help them out this season. marrero looks like a utility infielder who is at least a year away, they arent gonna center a deal around him. i am from the DC area and follow the nats as well and Jordan Zimmermann is a fairly popular guy who just threw the Nationals first no hitter. they arent gonna trade him for anything that doesnt blow them away. they dont really need to trade him. marrero, middlebrooks, and brian johnson is not gonna work
He can't play 3B any longer ... arm trouble ... that's why Nats have him going to 1B.ivanvamp said:
Rendon is playing 2B, not 3B, or can play both I should say, so Middlebrooks would bump him over to 3B.sean1562 said:
A more likely scenario would be the above offer for Fister, not Zimmerman. Which I would still do.
Marrero's value has skyrocketed recently. Gammons reported that some scouts at the AFL now believe he is a better prospect than Lindor.
SoxFanForsyth said:
rendon has ankle problems and is actually a good defender at 3B, they arent gonna move him off 3B so they can trade a really popular SP for Will Middlebrooks. Finding a 2B and keeping Rendon at 3B is really what Mike Rizzo wants to do this offseason. And I dont buy any of that Marrero is better than Lindor stuff after a few weeks in the AFL after Marrero hit .545 in AAA. The only reason rendon played 2B is because Ryan Zimmerman was at 3B and they still had LaRoche at 1B. he was a 3B in the minors and in college and can play the position well. he is probably a better defensive 3B than Will Middlebrooks. I just dont think Middlebrooks has any value in the eys of the Nationals and a trade of one of the Sp would make me believe they want to try and extend desmond
I see both of these announcements as the equivalent of beachfront property owners placing ‘for sale’ signs on their vacation homes at the end of the summer season--i.e., trolling for emotional buyers that are willing to pay well above reasonable market price(s).Corsi said:
sean1562 said:
Well the return for a guy like Fister on a 1 year rental isn't going to be enormous. Brian Johnson is a quality starter. Marrero projects to be another Brandon Crawford type player (more glove than stick, but enough stick to keep around and provide good value). Middlebrooks was the toss in.
If they are wanting an MLB ready 2B, then the Sox don't match up and they'd have to bring in another team. But maybe you add Coyle instead of Middlebrooks and it makes the deal more enticing. Coyle should be in AAA this year, but is Rule 5 eligible and would open up a slot for someone else if they dished him.
i think the nationals are only looking for a blow you out of the water move and it would be something that would have to also help them next year. getting brian johnson doesnt help them next year. my main point is that the red sox do not match up well at all with the nationals and i would be very very surprised if doug fister and jordan zimmermann are not playing for the nationals next season. mike rizzo understands the value of doug fister as well, i do not think he will be underrated by that front officeSoxFanForsyth said:
Fister would probably be quite a bit more obtainable.
He had a 2.41 ERA but a 3.85 FIP. His k/9 was a mediocre 5.35.
He was also the 3rd highest SIERA overperformer as well so he was pretty damn lucky to win 16 games last year. It seems like you see that with tall sinkerballers sometimes, and for some reason they induce consistently weak contact.
It would be weird if he was on his 4th team in 5 years for a really solid innings eater.
He had a 2.41 ERA but a 3.85 FIP. His k/9 was a mediocre 5.35.
He was also the 3rd highest SIERA overperformer as well so he was pretty damn lucky to win 16 games last year. It seems like you see that with tall sinkerballers sometimes, and for some reason they induce consistently weak contact.
It would be weird if he was on his 4th team in 5 years for a really solid innings eater.
Looks like the Tigers may be making David Price available. According to Blessyouboys (Tigers version of OTM), they'd be looking for a corner OF, a starter under control, and/or some pen help.
Kind of wonder if Cespedes, Eddy Rodriguez, and Allen Webster could get the ball rolling on something like that. Maybe instead of Webster, go with Margot, a lower level guy with higher upside.
Kind of wonder if Cespedes, Eddy Rodriguez, and Allen Webster could get the ball rolling on something like that. Maybe instead of Webster, go with Margot, a lower level guy with higher upside.
SoxFanForsyth said:
The same kind of argument may be made for any of these target SPs going into their walk year. I don't much see the point of trading real assets for one year of a guy - regardless of their talent.
And if you demand a negotiating window the price goes up - and you STILL have to give up the talent and pay 160/6 or the equivalent.
The Cole Hammels article referenced earlier is a good case in point - if Henry Owens is an overpay (and I think it is) for 4 years of Cole Hammels, Price would have to be pitching for league minimum next year to make it a fair trade. I think people have to start realizing that prime major prospects are worth very large amounts of money and adjust their thinking accordingly.
What's fair for Price? Cespedes and Sean Coyle (or someone of his ilk)
I wonder if he'd play in Boston for a year - splitting time with Vasquez - give him Buchholz and Lester if he comes back.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/11/dioner-navarro-seeks-trade-three-teams-interested.html
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2014/11/dioner-navarro-seeks-trade-three-teams-interested.html
Jason Mastrodonato @JMastrodonato 4m4 minutes ago
Red Sox remain on a budget, but aren't feeling restricted this offseason. Open to making a trade to free salary if it makes team better.
Red Sox remain on a budget, but aren't feeling restricted this offseason. Open to making a trade to free salary if it makes team better.
Corsi said:
nolasoxfan said:
I think that's a pretty good analogy. Nats are coming off a 96 win season and in good shape to do it again next year. I can't see any fit the Sox would have to help them improve short term. It would take a haul of prospects for a return of 1 year of Zimm/Fister.
lxt said:
Ross and Cashner are very popular in San Diego, and the new regime is going to try to build a little momentum, so I can't see giving them a bunch of guys we don't really want getting their two top pitchers. I would be happy with either, and saw Cashner pitch a lot this year, but I don't see either of them being traded without it costing a lot.
koufax37 said:
It was your classic "Here's a bunch of C prospects to theoretically match the value of one of your studs!" trade proposals. There's no way that package brings back either of those guys. The Padres need to build around young studs, not trade them away for a pile of mediocrity.
Also people should get used to the idea that one of our starters is more then likely going to be one of the kids.
My bad. I really don't know a great deal about SD and which players the fans like. I know SD is looking for offense and they have a ton of pitching prospects. I got the impression they were offering up players to get some offense.koufax37 said:
Are these guys really their "Studs"? Ross looks good for sure. If so then I think it would take throwing in the entire group. Not sure I'd call the guys I mentioned "C" quality ... I say maybe "B" category for most, not a real fan of Middlebrooks.Snodgrass'Muff said:
It's funny Middlebrooks is considered by many to be worthwhile hanging on to because of his power, that is until someone mentions him in a trade then he's garbage.
i just dont think anyone is gonna pay for him. i guess he is nice to keep stashed in AAA and he is really cheap for us. nobody is gonna give us anything nice for him right now though. middlebrooks, brentz and brian johnson arent terribly impressive prospects
If it's a one-year rental at an appropriate price (e.g. second tier pitching prospect), then sure. Long term? No way. He'll expect 8/160 or something ridiculous. His innings totals are really high -- Tampa seems to work over their young starters as they approach their trade-by date -- and his ERA+ has been 116 for the last two years, with 256 IP this past season. The odds of that long-term deal being a massive overpay are significant.Danny_Darwin said:
lxt said:
Seriously? Tyson Ross had a 2.81 ERA, 3.24 FIP and a 3.11 xFIP last year in 195.2 IP and a nearly a strikeout per inning. Cashner is their best pitcher. What's funny here is the tendency posters have to underrate players from other teams and overrate players from our own.
Last year Sickels ranked the top 20 Red Sox players with ratings of A, B, or C. Of the players you listed, the highest rated was Deven Marrero with a C+. This was was back in January, well before he struggled all season. His AFL performance might bring his value back up a little, but he is very clearly a C prospect. Brentz was right behind him, also a C+ but got hurt again. Shaw wasn't even in the honorable mentions.
http://www.minorleagueball.com/2014/1/1/5264914/boston-red-sox-top-20-prospects-for-2014
Edit: And both Craig and Middlebrooks have their value as low as it's ever been right now. Neither one is worth anything in a trade.
Okay, I cede the point to you. It's hard to truly assess a pitcher when they pitch in that ballpark, one of the last "canyon" parks. Cashner was injured last season - his sample is small but impressive.Snodgrass'Muff said:
lxt said:
You can look at something like ERA+ or ERA-. They do basically the same thing and measure a pitcher against league average, adjusting for park and era. He was 19% better than league average last year in both measures (119 ERA+ and an 81 ERA-). That ERA- tied him with Max Scherzer for 21st in the majors last year.
Marrero could be a B- prospect. He struggled all year? That >.800 OPS in AA must not have happened. Add in the AFL performance and it's reasonable to think his stock might have rose. Brian Johnson and Marrero are much better prospects than WMB or Bryce Brentz.
bosox79 said:
Should have said "this" instead of "all" but he spent 68 games in Portland as a 23 year old. He wasn't young for the league, he was about average, so I'm not really all that impressed with it. Perhaps his time in Pawtucket is making it hard for me to see that as a huge positive, but he wasn't just struggling there. He was completely overwhelmed at the plate. His AAA wRC+ was 48.
Golden glove or no, he has a 74 wRC+ in his minor league career. I have a hard time seeing him having moved up a notch last year. And even if he is a B-, it doesn't change my overall point that the Padres aren't trading Ross or Cashner for a pile of mediocre prospects, Will Middlebrooks and Allen Craig.
His trade offer is awful, but Marrero and Johnson have real value. Brentz and WMB are nothing but throw ins.
bosox79 said:
His trade offer did not include Johnson and I didn't mention him once in responding to it. Marrero is the only thing resembling value in that offer, and he's just not someone you build a package around for any kind of young impact player.
If you want both Ross (2 years of control) and Cashner (FA after 2015), you're going to have to give up a lot more than that.
Cashner had a 2.55 era but his k/9 was a lowly 6.79, and he was in a HR friendly park which lowered his HR/9. Normalize that and his xfip was 3.55, not great. The Padres are going to sell him based on past production and the Sox would want to pay for future performance, two very different things based on his numbers. This would be a tough deal to strike.
Tyson Ross has 2 years of control, and is the better guy here. His peripherals match his production. Two years of him would cost probably Cespedes, Owens, and Middlebrooks. The Padres are looking for offense and the Sox don't have a ton of that to offer.
Cashner had a 2.55 era but his k/9 was a lowly 6.79, and he was in a HR friendly park which lowered his HR/9. Normalize that and his xfip was 3.55, not great. The Padres are going to sell him based on past production and the Sox would want to pay for future performance, two very different things based on his numbers. This would be a tough deal to strike.
Tyson Ross has 2 years of control, and is the better guy here. His peripherals match his production. Two years of him would cost probably Cespedes, Owens, and Middlebrooks. The Padres are looking for offense and the Sox don't have a ton of that to offer.
Kiley McDaniel at Fangraphs (an ex-Yankees, Pirates, etc. scout) gives Marrero a 45 Future Value, which is "below average player." Certainly not a centerpiece for a legit starter. McDaniel's blurb on Marrero:bosox79 said:
Marrero is another former first rounder that is an 70 defender at shortstop and played half of last season in AAA, but he needs another season of polish to try to develop the bat further. He’s probably always an 8 or 9-hole hitter, but could still be one of the top 30 overall shortstops in the world.
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/evaluating-the-prospects-boston-red-sox/
I don't think anyone with half a brain thinks his trade offer was anything resembling fair...but I think you are under eating Marrero here. He is incredible defensively and the bar for offense is so low at SS that he is almost guaranteed to be a major league starter.Snodgrass said:
He also apparently performed really well in the AFL this summer. I don't think he can be the centerpiece in a Tyson Ross here but he can be a very valuable second/third piece
Another poster lumped Johnson in with WMB and Brentz. I was responding to that as well.
Travis Shaw is another throwaway talent too. I get a kick out of these proposals though. People really overrate the value of our prospect depth. Let's trade our ten dimes for a dollar type deals.
Travis Shaw is another throwaway talent too. I get a kick out of these proposals though. People really overrate the value of our prospect depth. Let's trade our ten dimes for a dollar type deals.
Okay gang I get it, it was a bad trade. I messed up, did not do my homework. I've done the research recommended and realize it was just plain stupid.bosox79 said:
Hopefully, that gets you all over the bad idea.
I still like Ross. I'd consider offering Owens for him. It will improve the rotation but Ross is not the ace. I'd send over Middlebrooks & Craig to give them the offense their looking for. I know "no value" but I think the board is a tad to tough on these two. Middlebrooks offers power that everyone is looking for but you must suffer threw his SO. SD has little offense and his bat would be valuable. There are others out there that teams find valuable that have Middlebrooks profile of huge SO with power. His injury history is troublesome and has more of a hit on his value. Craig has more value than the board will acknowledge. Why do you think the Sox traded for him. They know when healthy he is a solid offensive tool. The OF is crowded and his contract would free up money ($6 - 6.5million).
Edit: Fat finger mistake ... It's Owens not Owen
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