Red Sox hook Crochet for Kyle Teel, Braden Montgomery, Chase Meidroth and Wikelman Gonzalez

chawson

Hoping for delivery
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Aug 1, 2006
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Crochet’s an enormous dude, listed at 6’6” and 245 pounds. I wouldn’t mind having him under contract through age 33 or 34 if it came to that. Even if it’s just to help blanket the AAV.

We’ve gotten a lot of reports about what a gamer he is, so I’s guess that they aren’t worried about a conditioning lapse or anything, and his stuff is so good it could weather an age-related hit.

Every pitcher is a bad bet to stay healthy, and yet we must roster pitchers.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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Most of the fans around the league I talk to are deeply jealous of the offseason we're having and of the team's young talent. My Phillies friend, who has nothing to complain about, was inconsolable that we got Crochet. I don't blame the Sox for waiting out the free agent market to see how these players shake out before spending big money.
The Phils haven’t won since 2008 and have one title in like 40 years, they have plenty to complain about. But I get your point about they have no reason to complain about ownership spending, which I think is your point.


As to the tenor of the argument, I think the “truth” lies more between the two extremes. FSRedbird are NOT cheap. They also are not as committed to the idea of winning the World Series at all costs the way they once were, and the way LAD, NYY, NYM and Philly are.

The good news is that I truly do believe that Theo and Breslow are committed to winning the World Series, and just as I mentioned in the other thread that I think FSRedbird on the whole would be totally fine being the 1990s Buffalo Bills, I think Theo and Breslow would consider that a failure.

Which all means - people that want to say “they’re billionaires, spend it” will always be disappointed AND the people that adore prospects and don’t look at the faults of their own players will also always be disappointed.

I think Breslow has gotten a really good system to use. I think he will keep adding to it. I also think he’s going to be just fine trading them away. Just like Theo and just like Cherington. He won’t be able to (and may not want to be) super aggressive like DDski. He’s also not going to do nothing but by and hold and never use prospects as currency like Bloom (and thankfully, Breslow actually realizes you can’t have a rotation while investing no capital into said rotation).

At least that’s my take.
 

snowmanny

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Dec 8, 2005
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Makes total sense.
I know none of us want this, but I could see it benefitting both parties to let him pitch for a year. It would let Garrett say "look what I can do" and it would give the sox the chance to actually see what he can do when put under a full workload, in the AL East, for a big market team. There are risks to signing the extension now on both sides.
Reminds me of when your adult child comes home in love and starts talking about marriage, to which the modern parent may reply "don't you want to just live together for a little while first?"
I get the argument, but the Red Sox already gave up a fair amount for Crochet. A LOT of potential cost-controlled years. Was that all really for a year of “let’s see what we’ve got?”
My feeling is, they’ve already bet a lot on him being good, being healthy, being here, and to get the best (potential) return on that bet they need to complete the transaction with an extension.

I don’t want them spending money for the sake of spending money, but obviously their internal analysis is very high on him, so this seems like a good place to spend the money, maybe even a little too much money.
 

chrisfont9

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The Phils haven’t won since 2008 and have one title in like 40 years, they have plenty to complain about. But I get your point about they have no reason to complain about ownership spending, which I think is your point.


As to the tenor of the argument, I think the “truth” lies more between the two extremes. FSRedbird are NOT cheap. They also are not as committed to the idea of winning the World Series at all costs the way they once were, and the way LAD, NYY, NYM and Philly are.

The good news is that I truly do believe that Theo and Breslow are committed to winning the World Series, and just as I mentioned in the other thread that I think FSRedbird on the whole would be totally fine being the 1990s Buffalo Bills, I think Theo and Breslow would consider that a failure.

Which all means - people that want to say “they’re billionaires, spend it” will always be disappointed AND the people that adore prospects and don’t look at the faults of their own players will also always be disappointed.

I think Breslow has gotten a really good system to use. I think he will keep adding to it. I also think he’s going to be just fine trading them away. Just like Theo and just like Cherington. He won’t be able to (and may not want to be) super aggressive like DDski. He’s also not going to do nothing but by and hold and never use prospects as currency like Bloom (and thankfully, Breslow actually realizes you can’t have a rotation while investing no capital into said rotation).

At least that’s my take.
Sounds about right. I would like to know where the line is for FSG. The one thing we can reliably say is that there is a line below the NY and LA teams. But the reported offers to Soto and Fried suggest they will take risks some of the time. Maybe that's what they brought Theo back for, to help them get a better handle on spending risks, where the line should be and who's above or below it.
 

20Ks

New Member
Jul 11, 2024
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Why would he take a deal that buys out 3 years of his free agency at a really low rate while gaining him almost nothing in his 2 arb years?
He wouldn't. Good thing is the Red Sox know this, and what gets it done, and it will. One thing I'm pretty sure of is the last year won't be a club option
 

BringBackMo

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just as I mentioned in the other thread that I think FSRedbird on the whole would be totally fine being the 1990s Buffalo Bills, I think Theo and Breslow would consider that a failure.
What is FSRedbird?

Also, how did Breslow get his job, and how did Theo return to the organization?
 

Auger34

used to be tbb
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Apr 23, 2010
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Fenway Sports and RedBird Capital. Just a different way of saying ownership group
 

gammoseditor

also had a stroke
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Jul 17, 2005
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Somerville, MA
I get the argument, but the Red Sox already gave up a fair amount for Crochet. A LOT of potential cost-controlled years. Was that all really for a year of “let’s see what we’ve got?”
My feeling is, they’ve already bet a lot on him being good, being healthy, being here, and to get the best (potential) return on that bet they need to complete the transaction with an extension.

I don’t want them spending money for the sake of spending money, but obviously their internal analysis is very high on him, so this seems like a good place to spend the money, maybe even a little too much money.
Agree with this. They need to pay somebody. If it’s not Crochet you don’t trade for him. If they don’t extend him and they are right about him he’s going to get a lot more expensive.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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What is FSRedbird?

Also, how did Breslow get his job, and how did Theo return to the organization?
FSRedbird is a shorthand way of saying the difference in ownership since Redbird Capital took on a significant stake, which is something I would have never drawn a connection to until reading about it here. Maybe it was @DeJesus Built My Hotrod that had a really good outline of the way their patterns have changed since that like of demarcation. It could have been another poster, my intent is just to give credit as it was a very good line of posts.

Like I said, I think they’re still good owners, I don’t think they are cheap, and I don’t think they’re ok with sucking (which is why Breslow and Theo are here and Bloom is gone, and this is a very good thing in my opinion).

I also think now the goal for the ownership group is having a solid team and organization that constantly competes, and might even when a title in there. But there is a difference between that and the “win World Series titles at any cost” mindset that they had (or at least outwardly showed) previously such as LAD, NYM, NYY and Phi seem to have right now, and the approach Boston seems to have (which I think is more like Houston or Atlanta).

They might invest big in an off year if the timing hits right. They’ll probably get back to being a top 8 payroll or some such. But I don’t think you’re going to see them in the top two like they were in the first 20 or so years.

Sorry for a “will they / won’t they” spend type post. I do think it’s important to the expectations of the team, however.


And again, as to Crochet, I absolutely and unequivocally think they will extend him, just like they did Schilling, Beckett and Gonzalez.
 

chawson

Hoping for delivery
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Aug 1, 2006
5,184
I read @BringBackMo’s question not so literally, something more like, Why are we originating formal terms based on a cynical and unsubstantiated superstition that RedBird Capital are actually the ones making baseball decisions?
 

Auger34

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I read @BringBackMo’s question not so literally, something more like, Why are we originating formal terms based on a cynical and unsubstantiated superstition that RedBird Capital are actually the ones making baseball decisions?
You might be right but it seemed like a genuine question. Don’t want to assume something snarky when it seems genuine
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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You might be right but it seemed like a genuine question. Don’t want to assume something snarky when it seems genuine
Yeah, I took it as a genuine question as well. I for one had literally no idea about Redbird’s ownership stake until reading about it on here. The evidence and information laid out was very compelling and tracks.

Which again to be clear, in no way is meant to say they are cheap or bad owners or any such extreme term. There are plenty of successful teams that win in more constrained or fiscally responsible ways. There are also teams that win spending 3/4 of $1b on someone that could very easily end up being a DH - and it worked because LAD probabky didn’t win last year without him.

We don’t have to chose an extreme between “they’re just Tampa Bay North” (which is moronic) and “they are going to be LAD East” (which we have seen no evidence of).


Anyway, back to Crochet. They landed (my opinion) the best option of starting pitchers moved thus far in the off season. They paid a high price in prospects to do it (and I‘m glad they did). I also have no doubt whatsoever they are going to extend him, and likely pay him well north of $100m to do as such. If anyone cares about my “guess”, I’m saying they end up agreeing to what ends up covering 2026 -2032 at around $25m per year, but gives Crochet an opt out following the 2029 season.
 

Auger34

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Apr 23, 2010
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Yeah, I took it as a genuine question as well. I for one had literally no idea about Redbird’s ownership stake until reading about it on here. The evidence and information laid out was very compelling and tracks.

Which again to be clear, in no way is meant to say they are cheap or bad owners or any such extreme term. There are plenty of successful teams that win in more constrained or fiscally responsible ways. There are also teams that win spending 3/4 of $1b on someone that could very easily end up being a DH - and it worked because LAD probabky didn’t win last year without him.

We don’t have to chose an extreme between “they’re just Tampa Bay North” (which is moronic) and “they are going to be LAD East” (which we have seen no evidence of).


Anyway, back to Crochet. They landed (my opinion) the best option of starting pitchers moved thus far in the off season. They paid a high price in prospects to do it (and I‘m glad they did). I also have no doubt whatsoever they are going to extend him, and likely pay him well north of $100m to do as such. If anyone cares about my “guess”, I’m saying they end up agreeing to what ends up covering 2026 -2032 at around $25m per year, but gives Crochet an opt out following the 2029 season.
I would say that the Red Sox have a fanbase that spends top dollar, so the owners should be expected to do the same.

Cheap might be harsh, but I think they are absolutely lacking
 

chrisfont9

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You might be right but it seemed like a genuine question. Don’t want to assume something snarky when it seems genuine
It lines up with the talent level going off a cliff and a couple years of rebuilding behavior. It's a question worth asking -- did Redbird's arrival in 2021 change the spending behavior? -- but I would wait a bit. Correlation or causation? If they stay low on spending now, next year etc. with the talent rising, then we have an answer. But my guess is that it's what several of us have believed, that they wouldn't spend until they had a new foundation, then it would change. But hey, tbd.
 

Hank Scorpio

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Maybe. But we FOR SURE want his late twenties. If they can't get his 31-32 age seasons I will not view it as a failure at all. I think its going to be something like the following.

$7mm signing bonus
Year 1 - $4mm
Year 2 - $14mm
-----
Year 3 - $20mm
Year 4 - $20mm
Year 5 - $25mm
CLUB OPTION - $35mm

18 AAV. Hits free agency at 30 or 31.
Offering Crochet 5/$90 right now reminds me a little bit of the 4/$70 offer to Lester. Considering the state of the market right now, it's probably a much worse offer. Granted, Lester was much more proven at that point in his career, but it's also 11 years later, and Crochet is younger with more upside. I don't see any way he takes that offer.
 

chrisfont9

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I get that but the real question is WHT don't they spend to fill big needs. We are trying to fight fire hoses with squirt guns, yet we as fans are asked to pay through the nose. I think it is a legitimate question. What are the Sox, a mid market team now.
There are about 5000 posts poring over every possible decision the Sox have faced this fall/winter and I can't think of a single example that is as simplistic as "they could have just solved a problem with money and didn't." Pitching? They added 2 premium starters and a closer so far, two of them 8-figure deals and the third in line for a 9-figure one. RHH is a complex dance involving other roster spots and defensive positioning (a different problem), and the guys so many people want them to get are still out there, although there's a pretty serious question about whether the need is so big and whether Bregman or Arenado would solve anything. If you are relitigating the last 5 years or so, there is another post for that. This is the Crochet discussion.

https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/your-catchall-john-henry-and-the-sox-are-soooo-cheap-thread.44340/
 

BringBackMo

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FSRedbird is a shorthand way of saying the difference in ownership since Redbird Capital took on a significant stake, which is something I would have never drawn a connection to until reading about it here. Maybe it was @DeJesus Built My Hotrod that had a really good outline of the way their patterns have changed since that like of demarcation. It could have been another poster, my intent is just to give credit as it was a very good line of posts.

Like I said, I think they’re still good owners, I don’t think they are cheap, and I don’t think they’re ok with sucking (which is why Breslow and Theo are here and Bloom is gone, and this is a very good thing in my opinion).

I also think now the goal for the ownership group is having a solid team and organization that constantly competes, and might even when a title in there. But there is a difference between that and the “win World Series titles at any cost” mindset that they had (or at least outwardly showed) previously such as LAD, NYM, NYY and Phi seem to have right now, and the approach Boston seems to have (which I think is more like Houston or Atlanta).

They might invest big in an off year if the timing hits right. They’ll probably get back to being a top 8 payroll or some such. But I don’t think you’re going to see them in the top two like they were in the first 20 or so years.

Sorry for a “will they / won’t they” spend type post. I do think it’s important to the expectations of the team, however.


And again, as to Crochet, I absolutely and unequivocally think they will extend him, just like they did Schilling, Beckett and Gonzalez.
Redbird owns 11 percent of FSG. Credit who you want for conspiracy theories about how that stake has resulted in an overhaul of the Sox willingness to spend money, but it’s not based in fact any more than that the name of the group is FSRedbird.

The idea that the Yankees, Mets, and Phillies are more committed to winning the World Series than the Braves and Astros are is a really curious one to me.

Also curious is the idea that the Red Sox want to be good, but aren’t committed to winning the World Series and are content to be the ‘90s Bills—but hired Breslow and brought back Theo, who you say *aren’t* content simply to be the Bills. I have no idea why Henry et al would have hired Breslow and Theo, who aren’t content to be the Bills, if they are content to be the Bills. I also just don’t understand how you can so confidently make these pronouncements.

I see an organization that went through a rebuild and is now making investments at the very time that its core of prospects are about to join the big leagues. After already signing its best hitter to a huge long term extension, the Sox appear to want to sign Crochet to an extension as well. I acknowledge your frustration that they haven’t signed Bregman, but they have repeatedly said publicly that they want to add still more to an offseason that has already included Crochet, Buehler, and Chapman.
 

Auger34

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Apr 23, 2010
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Redbird owns 11 percent of FSG. Credit who you want for conspiracy theories about how that stake has resulted in an overhaul of the Sox willingness to spend money, but it’s not based in fact any more than that the name of the group is FSRedbird.

The idea that the Yankees, Mets, and Phillies are more committed to winning the World Series than the Braves and Astros are is a really curious one to me.

Also curious is the idea that the Red Sox want to be good, but aren’t committed to winning the World Series and are content to be the ‘90s Bills—but hired Breslow and brought back Theo, who you say *aren’t* content simply to be the Bills. I have no idea why Henry et al would have hired Breslow and Theo, who aren’t content to be the Bills, if they are content to be the Bills. I also just don’t understand how you can so confidently make these pronouncements.

I see an organization that went through a rebuild and is now making investments at the very time that its core of prospects are about to join the big leagues. After already signing its best hitter to a huge long term extension, the Sox appear to want to sign Crochet to an extension as well. I acknowledge your frustration that they haven’t signed Bregman, but they have repeatedly said publicly that they want to add still more to an offseason that has already included Crochet, Buehler, and Chapman.
So that was a snarky question framed as genuine? Apologies for taking you at your word then
 

simplicio

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Offering Crochet 5/$90 right now reminds me a little bit of the 4/$70 offer to Lester. Considering the state of the market right now, it's probably a much worse offer. Granted, Lester was much more proven at that point in his career, but it's also 11 years later, and Crochet is younger with more upside. I don't see any way he takes that offer.
While it's definitely low, I don't think it's Lester-low by any means. He still has two years of control left for one thing. But the big difference is Lester's deal would have aged him out of the big payday window, where 5 years to Crochet would put him back on the market at the same age as Fried.
 

TheDogMan

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Oct 25, 2024
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There are about 5000 posts poring over every possible decision the Sox have faced this fall/winter and I can't think of a single example that is as simplistic as "they could have just solved a problem with money and didn't." Pitching? They added 2 premium starters and a closer so far, two of them 8-figure deals and the third in line for a 9-figure one. RHH is a complex dance involving other roster spots and defensive positioning (a different problem), and the guys so many people want them to get are still out there, although there's a pretty serious question about whether the need is so big and whether Bregman or Arenado would solve anything. If you are relitigating the last 5 years or so, there is another post for that. This is the Crochet discussion.

https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/your-catchall-john-henry-and-the-sox-are-soooo-cheap-thread.44340/
I guess I see the additio s differently. I hope Chspman and Buehler work out but I have serious doubts. They really seem to have seen better days. I really hoped they would have followed Crochet with Burnes and I still hope they pay cash not prospects for a great closer. Not sure they can add an impact rhb unless they pay for Santander.
 

chawson

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Aug 1, 2006
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So that was a snarky question framed as genuine? Apologies for taking you at your word then
It’s not snarky to ask why we are theorizing or making things up and then repeating them 10x a day like they’re commonly held facts.
 

Auger34

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It’s not snarky to ask why we are theorizing or making things up and then repeating them 10x a day like they’re commonly held facts.
It absolutely is snarky to ask that as a legitimate question. Why are you even arguing this.

Just frame it the way you did if it’s not snarky. It’s not hard. Framing at the way it was framed is snarky and/or trying to make a gotcha post.
“FSRedBird” isn’t a term used a lot. If anyone asks what that means, the stock response is to take it a face value.

And this is the board that is a “super bummer” and crazy negative. A post that is actually optimistic and making a case for ownership is treated like a shitty takedown and being negative for the sake of being negative
 
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scottyno

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Dec 7, 2008
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While it's definitely low, I don't think it's Lester-low by any means. He still has two years of control left for one thing. But the big difference is Lester's deal would have aged him out of the big payday window, where 5 years to Crochet would put him back on the market at the same age as Fried.
It's worse than Lester low, I think people forget that 2012 and 2013 Lester was a below league average starter over 400+ innings because he had a great 5 starts in the 2013 playoffs whereas Crochet was legitimately one of the best pitchers in baseball last year.
 

chawson

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It absolutely is snarky to ask that as a legitimate question. Why are you even arguing this.

Just frame it the way you did if it’s not snarky. It’s not hard. Framing at the way it was framed is snarky and/or trying to make a gotcha post.
“FSRedBird” isn’t a term used a lot. If anyone asks what that means, the stock response is to take it a face value.
Each of your posts conjures in my mind a different but equally mysterious brown sauce.

I don’t know what else to tell you.

It lines up with the talent level going off a cliff and a couple years of rebuilding behavior. It's a question worth asking -- did Redbird's arrival in 2021 change the spending behavior? -- but I would wait a bit. Correlation or causation? If they stay low on spending now, next year etc. with the talent rising, then we have an answer. But my guess is that it's what several of us have believed, that they wouldn't spend until they had a new foundation, then it would change. But hey, tbd.
This seems right to me. It’s possible that there’s some new profitability mandate, but I do not think so. For one thing, the team would be making a lot more money if they were making the postseason every year.

I just remembered Jeff Passan’s groundbreaking article (titled “Here’s why baseball’s economic system might be broken”) and reread it for the first time since 2018. It’s really excellent.

There’s a ton of info in there relevant to discussions we’re having now. He often chastises — or emphasizes others’ chastising — teams that don’t spend on free agents, and a baseball fanship culture that rewards them.

And, he also writes stuff like this:

Is the foundation of the sport, a structure in place since the advent of free agency in the 1970s, still viable? Or is baseball’s economic system, its underpinning, broken?
and

This is what baseball teams in 2018 do: They push, bend, cajole, twist and massage every last rule. They cheat in Latin America. They hack one another. They fail because it might later give them a better chance to win. They operate with the ruthlessness of corporate raiders. And if they will go to incredible lengths in every other corner of the baseball world, why wouldn’t they do the same in free agency?

The inefficiency of the operation and the expectation that they must spend money there offends their sensibilities. And they’re not wrong. Players’ best years come in their 20s. Most free agents, then, are asking teams to guarantee them large sums of money for multiple years based on the performance of years they’re statistically unlikely to repeat. It’s not impossible, sometimes not even improbable, for them to do so. It’s just a risk, and as teams weigh the risk against that of seeking the same production from low-cost players they have developed, it’s one they’re less and less willing to take.
The Sox were incredible in 2018, and spent a lot of money, so they’re not really implicated here. But in that era, I remember a tenor on this board that more clearly echoed these sentiments than I do now. Missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years will do that, but I don’t think signing free agents to premium contracts in the modern era is a better bet than it was in 2018.

I think they genuinely believe that winning requires a really strong core of players in their 20s, and that it makes sense to augment a core of those players with select premium free agents. Rather than the other way around, spending big in free agency and using prospects and arb guys to pad the holes that come with increased injury and decline. And, they’ve been saying this very consistently too. They’ve backed it up by investing big in Crochet and Devers, and they’ve shown similar by trying to eke out productive seasons from pitchers on short-term deals.

The guys in their twenties also happen to be less expensive. I think for some, that’s all the proof they need that something fishy, or miserly, is going on. But that’s the system we’re in! The average MLB player‘s decline comes sooner every year.

The fact that the Sox have suffered a truly unfortunate string of big-ticket FA busts over the last 15 years has to be a factor too.
 
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chrisfont9

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I guess I see the additio s differently. I hope Chspman and Buehler work out but I have serious doubts. They really seem to have seen better days. I really hoped they would have followed Crochet with Burnes and I still hope they pay cash not prospects for a great closer. Not sure they can add an impact rhb unless they pay for Santander.
Buhler's talk with Buster Olney convinced me he's gonna be all the way back. Can't wait to see.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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It lines up with the talent level going off a cliff and a couple years of rebuilding behavior. It's a question worth asking -- did Redbird's arrival in 2021 change the spending behavior? -- but I would wait a bit. Correlation or causation? If they stay low on spending now, next year etc. with the talent rising, then we have an answer. But my guess is that it's what several of us have believed, that they wouldn't spend until they had a new foundation, then it would change. But hey, tbd.
I like to think you’re right, and hope that you are. This is what they did surrounding Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz and to a lesser extent JBJr and Bogaerts arrival in 2013. They started the process earlier, but did so with the Bs in 2018, but of course this was a more tiered approach (first Price, then Sale, then JDM) in different off seasons.

Totally TBD, and that is fair.

Also curious is the idea that the Red Sox want to be good, but aren’t committed to winning the World Series and are content to be the ‘90s Bills—but hired Breslow and brought back Theo, who you say *aren’t* content simply to be the Bills. I have no idea why Henry et al would have hired Breslow and Theo, who aren’t content to be the Bills, if they are content to be the Bills. I also just don’t understand how you can so confidently make these pronouncements.
Quite simply, they realized eventually what some of us said for multiple years, Bloom wasn’t a good enough bet to get them there in the ALEast. Do I think ownership would be content being the 1990s Bills, yes. Do I think there were ok with being on a track to be the 1980s Patriots, absolutely and unequivocally not.

Again, I’m not saying they do not want to win a World Series, I also don’t think they will allow having a #1 or #2 in payroll to get there like they did in the first 15 or so years.

Buhler's talk with Buster Olney convinced me he's gonna be all the way back. Can't wait to see.
I think it’s awesome that Breslow (and Bailey) has gotten the organization to a point where a risk like this makes sense in just 1.5 years. Landing Crochet, extending Bello, tapping into Houck’s potential and investing assets to build a pipeline on the fly (Fitts, Priester, Sandlin, Tolle) allows for these upside plays without meaning if they don’t work, then the season is done.
 

20Ks

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Jul 11, 2024
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Offering Crochet 5/$90 right now reminds me a little bit of the 4/$70 offer to Lester. Considering the state of the market right now, it's probably a much worse offer. Granted, Lester was much more proven at that point in his career, but it's also 11 years later, and Crochet is younger with more upside. I don't see any way he takes that offer.
He doesn't take that offer. Its not even close. The Red Sox know this. There is most likely parameters of a deal in place, and will be put together with the most efficient way to spread it out for luxury tax purposes once they make the rest of their offseason moves. It would be malpractice if they don't.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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While it's definitely low, I don't think it's Lester-low by any means. He still has two years of control left for one thing. But the big difference is Lester's deal would have aged him out of the big payday window, where 5 years to Crochet would put him back on the market at the same age as Fried.
Agree strongly here.

Also, the Lester negotiations came after the 2013 season, before the start of 2014 as I recall. Following the 2013 campaign, Lester had already made about $30m in career earnings. He was also about to get an additional $13m for the 2014 season (which he could bank on at the time since he’d gotten through the 2013 season healthy, obviously). Not sure what his bonus was out of HS, but guessing at around $2m, so he had guaranteed around $45m at the time the dumb offer was made.

Crochet has only made around $10m total for his career ($4.5m bonus, $4m this year, maybe an additional $2m for the parts of prior seasons). The arbitration process for him coming up as a relief pitcher has really kept his earnings down, and would for next season as well.

Turning down $70m when you already have $45m is a much different universe than turning down let’s say $100m when you’ve only made $10m.

Again, I think $100m is still a good bit low for what actually gets done (unless of course it’s just a 4/$100m/$25m deal which could be fair for both) but if something in the $95m to $100m range is Boston’s starting offer, it’s not nearly as insulting as the Lester offer.
 
Reading over the last couple pages I have my money on the guess made by chrisfont9:

4 this year, tenish next year, 25-30 per year for the following 5 years.
From a traditional contract perspective this scaling makes sense, but IMO it makes more sense from a baseball standpoint to do the opposite. Give him a big payday upfront and frontload the contract as teh team is likely to have fewer cash obligations in the next couple years. As the contract ages, our young core will likely be hitting arb (or better yet, be great and getting extended), thus increasing their salaries either way. So from a cash-flow perspective, spending more up front makes sense. It also has the added value of making Crochet MUCH more tradable in the back end of the deal, as AAV recalculates based on the remaining contract. It's also more attractive for Crochet, so he might accept a lower total $$ amount if the contract is front loaded. Unless there is some rule prohibiting this contract structure, I'm surprised more teams aren't going this way.

_______________

Personally, I'm optimistic that an extension gets done. In all of baseball I think extending young pitching is probably the place where player and ownership interests are most aligned.

The way I see it, signing FA position players is like playing craps or blackjack. You probably lose on value, but over a decent sample size your results are relatively predictable and you're probably not losing a ton if you do a good job of it. FA pitchers are more like playing slots. You might hit a jackpot on a low investment and get a ton of value (see: Lance Lynn), but on the whole you're losing more consistently and with a LOT more variance.

The reason for this is that the driving force behind position player attrition is skills attrition with injury as a secondary factor, while with pitchers it's the opposite. While some position players careers are derailed by injury, it doesn't happen nearly as often as it does for pitchers. Skills attrition also affects players in a way that is more commensurate with their actual ability. If you're barely good enough, it doesn't take much to fall down to replacement level. Meanwhile, players that excel in multiple dimensions of the game are going to be able to maintain a useful amount of value over time more consistently, even if they do still fall off.

Meanwhile, elbow ligaments have no respect for talent. Certain pitchers may be more injury prone due to particularly violent mechanics, but the baseline is very scary.

Given the impact of the luxury tax (even if only on IFA money and draft picks, let alone payroll), large contracts for pitchers are much riskier and can have nasty downstream effects in the downside case, and the downside case is a lot more common than with position players. A middle to big market team can absorb a bricked 15-20mm AAV contract much more easily than a 30-40mm AAV contract. So even if the team assumes more risk by extending a young pitcher, the impact of that risk is mitigated by the overall smaller outlay of cash in a way that is much more impactful than for position players, where the risk mitigation is less important.

For players, the same dynamic plays to the player's interests. Young, talented pitchers are much more likely to lose their career to injury than young, talented position players. Having a more moderate contract locked in still guarantees generational wealth, compared with the very real risk of wholly missing the boat. A career-ending injury for a pre arb or even early arb player is absolutely devastating. It's not just the opportunity cost of losing a huge payday but the reality of facing a massive career change in one's early to mid twenties (without the education to back it up for many). For a position player, betting on oneself to make it through 3-4 years to get to free agency is like betting on oneself at the poker table. For a pitcher it's pulling the arm on a slot machine.

So in the end, both sides have a tremendous incentive to mitigate risk, and contract extensions achieve that for both sides.

Addendum -- I'm less confident in this bit, but I'll put it out there anyway: I think the prospects for older pitchers are also better than for position players. The aging curve hits everyone, but it seems like there are more pitchers that can sustain a high level of effectiveness as they age IF they manage to avoid or effectively recover from injuries. These guys may not be able to secure a megadeal in their mid 30s, but they can lock down 1-3 year contracts with big AAV in part for the same reasons why exensions make sense. A short term signing, even at high AAV, isn't likely to cripple your francise's future if it bricks. For a position player signing a big extension that has you hitting FA in your mid 30's is very likely to be your last really good contract. For a pitcher though, it's easier to imagine a path where you exit your contract extension and then string together a few seasons of big money to close out your career.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
From a traditional contract perspective this scaling makes sense, but IMO it makes more sense from a baseball standpoint to do the opposite. Give him a big payday upfront and frontload the contract as teh team is likely to have fewer cash obligations in the next couple years. As the contract ages, our young core will likely be hitting arb (or better yet, be great and getting extended), thus increasing their salaries either way. So from a cash-flow perspective, spending more up front makes sense. It also has the added value of making Crochet MUCH more tradable in the back end of the deal, as AAV recalculates based on the remaining contract. It's also more attractive for Crochet, so he might accept a lower total $$ amount if the contract is front loaded. Unless there is some rule prohibiting this contract structure, I'm surprised more teams aren't going this way.

_______________

Personally, I'm optimistic that an extension gets done. In all of baseball I think extending young pitching is probably the place where player and ownership interests are most aligned.

The way I see it, signing FA position players is like playing craps or blackjack. You probably lose on value, but over a decent sample size your results are relatively predictable and you're probably not losing a ton if you do a good job of it. FA pitchers are more like playing slots. You might hit a jackpot on a low investment and get a ton of value (see: Lance Lynn), but on the whole you're losing more consistently and with a LOT more variance.

The reason for this is that the driving force behind position player attrition is skills attrition with injury as a secondary factor, while with pitchers it's the opposite. While some position players careers are derailed by injury, it doesn't happen nearly as often as it does for pitchers. Skills attrition also affects players in a way that is more commensurate with their actual ability. If you're barely good enough, it doesn't take much to fall down to replacement level. Meanwhile, players that excel in multiple dimensions of the game are going to be able to maintain a useful amount of value over time more consistently, even if they do still fall off.

Meanwhile, elbow ligaments have no respect for talent. Certain pitchers may be more injury prone due to particularly violent mechanics, but the baseline is very scary.

Given the impact of the luxury tax (even if only on IFA money and draft picks, let alone payroll), large contracts for pitchers are much riskier and can have nasty downstream effects in the downside case, and the downside case is a lot more common than with position players. A middle to big market team can absorb a bricked 15-20mm AAV contract much more easily than a 30-40mm AAV contract. So even if the team assumes more risk by extending a young pitcher, the impact of that risk is mitigated by the overall smaller outlay of cash in a way that is much more impactful than for position players, where the risk mitigation is less important.

For players, the same dynamic plays to the player's interests. Young, talented pitchers are much more likely to lose their career to injury than young, talented position players. Having a more moderate contract locked in still guarantees generational wealth, compared with the very real risk of wholly missing the boat. A career-ending injury for a pre arb or even early arb player is absolutely devastating. It's not just the opportunity cost of losing a huge payday but the reality of facing a massive career change in one's early to mid twenties (without the education to back it up for many). For a position player, betting on oneself to make it through 3-4 years to get to free agency is like betting on oneself at the poker table. For a pitcher it's pulling the arm on a slot machine.

So in the end, both sides have a tremendous incentive to mitigate risk, and contract extensions achieve that for both sides.

Addendum -- I'm less confident in this bit, but I'll put it out there anyway: I think the prospects for older pitchers are also better than for position players. The aging curve hits everyone, but it seems like there are more pitchers that can sustain a high level of effectiveness as they age IF they manage to avoid or effectively recover from injuries. These guys may not be able to secure a megadeal in their mid 30s, but they can lock down 1-3 year contracts with big AAV in part for the same reasons why exensions make sense. A short term signing, even at high AAV, isn't likely to cripple your francise's future if it bricks. For a position player signing a big extension that has you hitting FA in your mid 30's is very likely to be your last really good contract. For a pitcher though, it's easier to imagine a path where you exit your contract extension and then string together a few seasons of big money to close out your career.
Wow, there's a lot here. Nice job.

I agree with your last point about pitchers aging OK as a possibility, subject to the usual individual variance. TJ surgery actually means a big vacation for the rest of your body. I don't know what the recovery is like, of course, but I've had knee surgeries and it's a long rehab, because the muscles and other surrounding tissues are hurt by the procedure. But for pitchers, the shock effects of elbow surgery to the surrounding tissues, I'd guess your shoulder is not affected. So when you heal, you start throwing with a shoulder that has low mileage.

On your initial thought about alignment, I'll just add that this is a special case. Sure, a young guy minimizing the earnings risks pre-FA has incentives and the owners want to buy up his prime. But then there is Crochet, who just got let out of ChiSox jail. The vibes are unique, all positive. AND the team presumably is 100% on board with his extension plans, because he told them what he wanted before the trade. The Sox essentially were saying yes to that, preliminarily at least. Things could get complicated but for now there is a great opportunity to get a deal done.
 

loneredseat

New Member
Dec 8, 2023
286
From a traditional contract perspective this scaling makes sense, but IMO it makes more sense from a baseball standpoint to do the opposite. Give him a big payday upfront and frontload the contract as teh team is likely to have fewer cash obligations in the next couple years. As the contract ages, our young core will likely be hitting arb (or better yet, be great and getting extended), thus increasing their salaries either way. So from a cash-flow perspective, spending more up front makes sense. It also has the added value of making Crochet MUCH more tradable in the back end of the deal, as AAV recalculates based on the remaining contract. It's also more attractive for Crochet, so he might accept a lower total $$ amount if the contract is front loaded. Unless there is some rule prohibiting this contract structure, I'm surprised more teams aren't going this way.

_______________

Personally, I'm optimistic that an extension gets done. In all of baseball I think extending young pitching is probably the place where player and ownership interests are most aligned.

The way I see it, signing FA position players is like playing craps or blackjack. You probably lose on value, but over a decent sample size your results are relatively predictable and you're probably not losing a ton if you do a good job of it. FA pitchers are more like playing slots. You might hit a jackpot on a low investment and get a ton of value (see: Lance Lynn), but on the whole you're losing more consistently and with a LOT more variance.

The reason for this is that the driving force behind position player attrition is skills attrition with injury as a secondary factor, while with pitchers it's the opposite. While some position players careers are derailed by injury, it doesn't happen nearly as often as it does for pitchers. Skills attrition also affects players in a way that is more commensurate with their actual ability. If you're barely good enough, it doesn't take much to fall down to replacement level. Meanwhile, players that excel in multiple dimensions of the game are going to be able to maintain a useful amount of value over time more consistently, even if they do still fall off.

Meanwhile, elbow ligaments have no respect for talent. Certain pitchers may be more injury prone due to particularly violent mechanics, but the baseline is very scary.

Given the impact of the luxury tax (even if only on IFA money and draft picks, let alone payroll), large contracts for pitchers are much riskier and can have nasty downstream effects in the downside case, and the downside case is a lot more common than with position players. A middle to big market team can absorb a bricked 15-20mm AAV contract much more easily than a 30-40mm AAV contract. So even if the team assumes more risk by extending a young pitcher, the impact of that risk is mitigated by the overall smaller outlay of cash in a way that is much more impactful than for position players, where the risk mitigation is less important.

For players, the same dynamic plays to the player's interests. Young, talented pitchers are much more likely to lose their career to injury than young, talented position players. Having a more moderate contract locked in still guarantees generational wealth, compared with the very real risk of wholly missing the boat. A career-ending injury for a pre arb or even early arb player is absolutely devastating. It's not just the opportunity cost of losing a huge payday but the reality of facing a massive career change in one's early to mid twenties (without the education to back it up for many). For a position player, betting on oneself to make it through 3-4 years to get to free agency is like betting on oneself at the poker table. For a pitcher it's pulling the arm on a slot machine.

So in the end, both sides have a tremendous incentive to mitigate risk, and contract extensions achieve that for both sides.

Addendum -- I'm less confident in this bit, but I'll put it out there anyway: I think the prospects for older pitchers are also better than for position players. The aging curve hits everyone, but it seems like there are more pitchers that can sustain a high level of effectiveness as they age IF they manage to avoid or effectively recover from injuries. These guys may not be able to secure a megadeal in their mid 30s, but they can lock down 1-3 year contracts with big AAV in part for the same reasons why exensions make sense. A short term signing, even at high AAV, isn't likely to cripple your francise's future if it bricks. For a position player signing a big extension that has you hitting FA in your mid 30's is very likely to be your last really good contract. For a pitcher though, it's easier to imagine a path where you exit your contract extension and then string together a few seasons of big money to close out your career.
Sorry, to clarify: I wasn't suggesting that it be structured that way. I was suggesting that it you think about what would be a fair value for the next 6 years, that seems about right.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2022
1,807
Personally, I'm optimistic that an extension gets done. In all of baseball I think extending young pitching is probably the place where player and ownership interests are most aligned...So in the end, both sides have a tremendous incentive to mitigate risk, and contract extensions achieve that for both sides.
Edited down to respond, but this is incredibly well thought out, and I agree with it a good amount, especially as to these two points listed above. I think it’s especially true in Crochet’s case having already had TJS. Really curious to see what the eventual deal looks like, as I’m incredibly confident it gets done.
 

20Ks

New Member
Jul 11, 2024
138
From a traditional contract perspective this scaling makes sense, but IMO it makes more sense from a baseball standpoint to do the opposite. Give him a big payday upfront and frontload the contract as teh team is likely to have fewer cash obligations in the next couple years. As the contract ages, our young core will likely be hitting arb (or better yet, be great and getting extended), thus increasing their salaries either way. So from a cash-flow perspective, spending more up front makes sense. It also has the added value of making Crochet MUCH more tradable in the back end of the deal, as AAV recalculates based on the remaining contract. It's also more attractive for Crochet, so he might accept a lower total $$ amount if the contract is front loaded. Unless there is some rule prohibiting this contract structure, I'm surprised more teams aren't going this way.

_______________

Personally, I'm optimistic that an extension gets done. In all of baseball I think extending young pitching is probably the place where player and ownership interests are most aligned.

The way I see it, signing FA position players is like playing craps or blackjack. You probably lose on value, but over a decent sample size your results are relatively predictable and you're probably not losing a ton if you do a good job of it. FA pitchers are more like playing slots. You might hit a jackpot on a low investment and get a ton of value (see: Lance Lynn), but on the whole you're losing more consistently and with a LOT more variance.

The reason for this is that the driving force behind position player attrition is skills attrition with injury as a secondary factor, while with pitchers it's the opposite. While some position players careers are derailed by injury, it doesn't happen nearly as often as it does for pitchers. Skills attrition also affects players in a way that is more commensurate with their actual ability. If you're barely good enough, it doesn't take much to fall down to replacement level. Meanwhile, players that excel in multiple dimensions of the game are going to be able to maintain a useful amount of value over time more consistently, even if they do still fall off.

Meanwhile, elbow ligaments have no respect for talent. Certain pitchers may be more injury prone due to particularly violent mechanics, but the baseline is very scary.

Given the impact of the luxury tax (even if only on IFA money and draft picks, let alone payroll), large contracts for pitchers are much riskier and can have nasty downstream effects in the downside case, and the downside case is a lot more common than with position players. A middle to big market team can absorb a bricked 15-20mm AAV contract much more easily than a 30-40mm AAV contract. So even if the team assumes more risk by extending a young pitcher, the impact of that risk is mitigated by the overall smaller outlay of cash in a way that is much more impactful than for position players, where the risk mitigation is less important.

For players, the same dynamic plays to the player's interests. Young, talented pitchers are much more likely to lose their career to injury than young, talented position players. Having a more moderate contract locked in still guarantees generational wealth, compared with the very real risk of wholly missing the boat. A career-ending injury for a pre arb or even early arb player is absolutely devastating. It's not just the opportunity cost of losing a huge payday but the reality of facing a massive career change in one's early to mid twenties (without the education to back it up for many). For a position player, betting on oneself to make it through 3-4 years to get to free agency is like betting on oneself at the poker table. For a pitcher it's pulling the arm on a slot machine.

So in the end, both sides have a tremendous incentive to mitigate risk, and contract extensions achieve that for both sides.

Addendum -- I'm less confident in this bit, but I'll put it out there anyway: I think the prospects for older pitchers are also better than for position players. The aging curve hits everyone, but it seems like there are more pitchers that can sustain a high level of effectiveness as they age IF they manage to avoid or effectively recover from injuries. These guys may not be able to secure a megadeal in their mid 30s, but they can lock down 1-3 year contracts with big AAV in part for the same reasons why exensions make sense. A short term signing, even at high AAV, isn't likely to cripple your francise's future if it bricks. For a position player signing a big extension that has you hitting FA in your mid 30's is very likely to be your last really good contract. For a pitcher though, it's easier to imagine a path where you exit your contract extension and then string together a few seasons of big money to close out your career.
Crochet is an anomaly. Seldom do pitchers his age and pedigree get such a low Arb #. A trade for Crochet would have netted him at 2 years at $15M. Any team with prospects could have traded for him and gotten Ace production for 2/15. The Red Sox now get to use those two years as leverage to buy out some of his FA years. Those 2 years to buy out 3 years of FA will cost you at least $150M and most likely a couple of player options between $30 and $40M. It is such a reasobnable deal for both sides is why it will happen. The Red Sox will either have an ace for 5 years or be on the hook for whatever value is not realized on 3/100 or 5/160 which is less than Fried or Burnes, and it is ages 28-33 VS 31-38. They paid the prospects because of the decreased risk. This math is known to both sides. Crochet came to the Red Sox instead of TB, or Pitt or Minn who had the prospects to get Crochet on a 2/15 .

Also there is a video posted somewhere of all Crochets 99+ sinkers he threw last year after the ASB. Dude paints, he is going to be must watch TV.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
15,555
That all assumes that Crochet is willing to take a deal that only goes through his age 33 year. Theoretically, he could ask for a longer term deal to take him to his mid to late 30’s, or more realistically, ask for an opt out that allows him to become a free agent at 30.

Age 26,27 - under control / arb (2)
Age 28-32 - years Sox most want (5)
Age 33+

So, Sox probably want a 6-7 year deal (4-5 year extension), what does GC want? Probably like 10 or 4?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
22,902
Maine
That all assumes that Crochet is willing to take a deal that only goes through his age 33 year. Theoretically, he could ask for a longer term deal to take him to his mid to late 30’s, or more realistically, ask for an opt out that allows him to become a free agent at 30.

Age 26,27 - under control / arb (2)
Age 28-32 - years Sox most want (5)
Age 33+

So, Sox probably want a 6-7 year deal (4-5 year extension), what does GC want? Probably like 10 or 4?
I expect the middle ground is a 7-8 year deal with an opt-out after year 4 or 5. Gives the Sox the prime years without too much exposure on the back end. Gives Crochet the opportunity to get into the market for his age 30 or 31 season. It's more or less the Bogaerts extension in 2019.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 13, 2021
15,555
I expect the middle ground is a 7-8 year deal with an opt-out after year 4 or 5. Gives the Sox the prime years without too much exposure on the back end. Gives Crochet the opportunity to get into the market for his age 30 or 31 season. It's more or less the Bogaerts extension in 2019.
Yeah, that sounds right to me. I guess the challenge is that it creates a potentially difficult situation for the Sox, with the opt out. But- it’s one a ways down the road and only a real issue if Crochet is impactful (it’s a much worse situation if he doesn’t opt out, likely). Probably unavoidable and part of how these things go.
 

20Ks

New Member
Jul 11, 2024
138
I expect the middle ground is a 7-8 year deal with an opt-out after year 4 or 5. Gives the Sox the prime years without too much exposure on the back end. Gives Crochet the opportunity to get into the market for his age 30 or 31 season. It's more or less the Bogaerts extension in 2019.
Something like this is most likely.
 

20Ks

New Member
Jul 11, 2024
138
Yeah, that sounds right to me. I guess the challenge is that it creates a potentially difficult situation for the Sox, with the opt out. But- it’s one a ways down the road and only a real issue if Crochet is impactful (it’s a much worse situation if he doesn’t opt out, likely). Probably unavoidable and part of how these things go.
If you have had 5 years of Crochet good enough to opt out, everything had gone swimmingly.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
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Jan 23, 2009
22,902
Maine
If you have had 5 years of Crochet good enough to opt out, everything had gone swimmingly.
True, and opting out doesn't have to mean he's gone forever. It's not as though they can't just re-sign him to a new deal. I know, I know, they don't like doing long deals for pitchers over 30...there are always exceptions and who knows if he might be it. That's a 2030 problem, though.
 

RS2004foreever

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 15, 2022
1,577
I like to think you’re right, and hope that you are. This is what they did surrounding Ellsbury, Pedroia, Lester, Buchholz and to a lesser extent JBJr and Bogaerts arrival in 2013. They started the process earlier, but did so with the Bs in 2018, but of course this was a more tiered approach (first Price, then Sale, then JDM) in different off seasons.

Totally TBD, and that is fair.



Quite simply, they realized eventually what some of us said for multiple years, Bloom wasn’t a good enough bet to get them there in the ALEast. Do I think ownership would be content being the 1990s Bills, yes. Do I think there were ok with being on a track to be the 1980s Patriots, absolutely and unequivocally not.

Again, I’m not saying they do not want to win a World Series, I also don’t think they will allow having a #1 or #2 in payroll to get there like they did in the first 15 or so years.



I think it’s awesome that Breslow (and Bailey) has gotten the organization to a point where a risk like this makes sense in just 1.5 years. Landing Crochet, extending Bello, tapping into Houck’s potential and investing assets to build a pipeline on the fly (Fitts, Priester, Sandlin, Tolle) allows for these upside plays without meaning if they don’t work, then the season is done.
The 90's Bills were a missed field goal from a title.
Where some of this loses me is that there is an incredible amount of luck at play in winning titles. Of course ownership would be happy with a team that won 4 straight conference titles - that team probably wins a title. If Seattle hands the ball of to Lynch the Pats lose. If Rivera closes out game 4 the '04 title never happens.

Payroll certainly makes you more likely to make the playoffs. But once you are there in baseball it is a crapshoot. The Braves won 87 games in '21. Arizona made the World Series in '23 and won '84 games. The Rangers in '23 were kind of lucky to make the playoffs at all.

Frankly I don't think the verdict is in yet with Bloom. In some rankings the Red Sox have the best farm system in the game. If Anthony/Campbell hit we are going to look back and think of him differently. At this moment you can argue Bloom did his job - and Breslow is going to benefit.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
That all assumes that Crochet is willing to take a deal that only goes through his age 33 year. Theoretically, he could ask for a longer term deal to take him to his mid to late 30’s, or more realistically, ask for an opt out that allows him to become a free agent at 30.

Age 26,27 - under control / arb (2)
Age 28-32 - years Sox most want (5)
Age 33+

So, Sox probably want a 6-7 year deal (4-5 year extension), what does GC want? Probably like 10 or 4?
Didn't he tell teams what he wanted before any trade? Hopefully the Sox then trading for him was a signal that they were roughly OK with it, not just "OK pal" and a bunch of radically different proposals.
 

chrisfont9

Member
SoSH Member
True, and opting out doesn't have to mean he's gone forever. It's not as though they can't just re-sign him to a new deal. I know, I know, they don't like doing long deals for pitchers over 30...there are always exceptions and who knows if he might be it. That's a 2030 problem, though.
They can even copy the opt-back-in mechanisms the Yankees have with Cole.
 

RG33

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Nov 28, 2005
7,737
CA
Frankly I don't think the verdict is in yet with Bloom. In some rankings the Red Sox have the best farm system in the game. If Anthony/Campbell hit we are going to look back and think of him differently. At this moment you can argue Bloom did his job - and Breslow is going to benefit.
Yeah, I think this happens for sure. It won’t be that dissimilar from when Theo got all the props for the 2004/2007 WS Championship teams that Duquette played a significant role in building the foundation for.
 

OCD SS

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
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Didn't he tell teams what he wanted before any trade? Hopefully the Sox then trading for him was a signal that they were roughly OK with it, not just "OK pal" and a bunch of radically different proposals.
I don’t know if he sent/ leaked terms; I don’t think so as we would’ve seen it reported, and likely used as an he basis for contract projections in this thread.

But that was if he was traded in the middle of the 2024 season, when he was still ramping up to a starter’s workload and schedule while coming off injury. The extension then was for him to pitch in the postseason so he had long term protection in case he got hurt again with the additional workload & stress. It just doesn’t apply anymore.