Red Sox HOF Class of '14: Clemens, Pedro, Nomar, and Joe Castiglione

pedro1918

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
5,141
Map Ref. 41°N 93°W
Clemens and Pedro together. I'm a little surprised by that. You would think they could have held off on Clemens until there was a year without a real headliner.

It's also weird to go back in time and think that Nomar of the late 90s/early 2000s would be third wheel when he was inducted to the HoF.
 

Savin Hillbilly

loves the secret sauce
SoSH Member
Jul 10, 2007
18,783
The wrong side of the bridge....
Part of me wishes they would punt Clemens to another year so that Pedro's induction would be unsullied by Roger's presence. Part of me is glad that they're being inducted together so that Clemens will enter in Pedro's shadow. The third part of me is mildly surprised to find that I hate Clemens quite this much.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,750
Miami (oh, Miami!)
If Clemens died in a plane crash the year he left for Toronto, he'd be very fondly remembered.  A bit of a prick, a guy who never seemed to come through in big games/the post season, but not a horrible person.  
 
It's everything that he did after leaving that has earned the hatred.   
 
So I really shouldn't object to him being in the Sox HOF.   Yet part of me does.  
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,438
Not here
Rovin Romine said:
If Clemens died in a plane crash the year he left for Toronto, he'd be very fondly remembered.  A bit of a prick, a guy who never seemed to come through in big games/the post season, but not a horrible person.  
 
It's everything that he did after leaving that has earned the hatred.   
 
So I really shouldn't object to him being in the Sox HOF.   Yet part of me does.  
 
This is pretty much me.
 
There's one percent of me that remembers seeing his name on the list of contributors to whereve the hell it was we stayed when my dad was dying. The rest of me wants him to experience a hell not unlike the feel of ben gay on the balls, but forever.
 

SeanBerry

Knows about the CBA.
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2003
3,599
Section 519
Nomar, Clemens and Pedro in the same class? Sounds like the Red Sox HOF wanted to remind us there is a Red Sox HOF.
 

Spacemans Bong

chapeau rose
SoSH Member
SeanBerry said:
Nomar, Clemens and Pedro in the same class? Sounds like the Red Sox HOF wanted to remind us there is a Red Sox HOF.
 
Or that they want to make some money out of this event. If they open up Fenway Park on an off-day and sell tickets to boo Clemens and cheer Pedro, Nomar and Joe C, do they not get a decent crowd?
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
I'm not opposed to Roger Clemens being inducted into the Red Sox HOF, but why now?  One could argue that Pedro, Nomar and Roger each deserved to be a headliner.
 

David Laurila

Barbara Walters' Illegitimate Son
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Buck Freeman remains perhaps the most glaring omission. He only played six full seasons with the Red Sox, but others have been inducted with relatively short careers here. Freeman was the top hitter on the 1903 championship team, led the league in RBIs twice, home runs and triples once each, and had a 130 adjusted OPS in a Boston uniform.
 

RoyHobbs

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 13, 2005
1,800
Pg. 35 of "Win it For"
JimD said:
I'm not opposed to Roger Clemens being inducted into the Red Sox HOF, but why now?  One could argue that Pedro, Nomar and Roger each deserved to be a headliner.
 
True. But it seems a pretty smart way to offset the focus on Clemens AND to create the "best pitchers in Sox history in one place!!" hook/narrative.
 

OCST

Sunny von Bulow
SoSH Member
Jan 10, 2004
24,483
The 718
I'm very happy that Joe Castiglione is getting the recognition he deserves.  He has contributed as much to my enjoyment of the Red Sox as any player on the field. 
 

mauidano

Mai Tais for everyone!
SoSH Member
Aug 21, 2006
35,667
Maui
About as close to a Hall of Fame that Clemens will ever see.  That being said, his time as a Red Sox pitcher was as good as it gets.  So based on that he deserves it.  Let's not get too carried away about it.  Agree with OilCanShotTupac; Castiglione is and has been such a part of the Sox history.  Congrats to all of them.
 

Mugsy's Jock

Eli apologist
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 28, 2000
15,069
UWS, NYC
I actually feel for Nomar.  He was a transcendent player, and just so much fun to watch -- banging out line drive after line drive swinging at the first pitch and all.  He certainly was a cantankerous prick who played his way out of town too, but you know he loved Boston and absolutely rehabilitated his image in Sox circles after he left.
 
Nice that he got the honor, but nobody's going to be talking about Nomar.
 

syoo8

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 2, 2007
1,106
New York, NY
bosoxgrl said:
Pedro should have his own day.  Period.
 
He will, when his number is retired at Fenway.  (His number will undoubtedly be retired once he is inducted into the HOF, yes?)
 

StuckOnYouk

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 26, 2006
3,538
CT
My thoughts go back to his Yankees days. He was my favorite player when he was on the Sox but from the time he forced his way onto NY and all the BS that came with him in the NY/Boston rivalry, and the wiping of his sweat on the Babe plaque of all things (Back when there was still a perceived Curse of the Bambino  going on in our backyard.)
 
Well f*ck that guy.
 
Pedro will overshadow him and that's probably a good thing. Don't let Roger's ego get any bigger than it is.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,438
Not here
Devizier said:
Clemens was already a statuatory rapist when he left Boston, right? 
 
Pretty sure that's correct.
 
Also, I saw someone posting with the name Margo McCready which I thought deserved to win the tawdry olympics.
 

nattysez

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2010
8,439
All will be forgiven if the Dentist writes the intros thusly:
 
"And now the greatest pitcher in Red Sox history...please sit down, Roger...Pedro Martinez!"
 
"And now one of the most electric home-grown talents Boston has ever seen, a prodigal son returned...please sit down, Roger...Nomar Garciaparra!"
 
"And here's the Texas Con Man, the guy who headed north and started hitting the juice when Dan Duquette described him as being in the 'twilight of his career'... Roger 'Billy from Ohio' Clemens."
 

terrisus

formerly: imgran
SoSH Member
As others have said as well - it's not that I necessarily disagree with recognizing Clemens (certainly he played a significant part in Red Sox history), but, I would much have preferred, one, for it to have waited longer (maybe another 10 years or so), and, more importantly, two, not been in the same year as Pedro.
 
Pedro should have his own specific year of celebration really.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Apr 25, 2002
90,050
Oregon
terrisus said:
As others have said as well - it's not that I necessarily disagree with recognizing Clemens (certainly he played a significant part in Red Sox history), but, I would much have preferred, one, for it to have waited longer (maybe another 10 years or so), and, more importantly, two, not been in the same year as Pedro.
 
Pedro should have his own specific year of celebration really.
 
Yaz didn't, why should Pedro?
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
The more I think about the Sox honoring Roger, the more I actually kind of like it.  We will never know the true timeline of when Clemens used, but there seems to be a general acknowledgement that he was 'clean' (yeah, I know, whatever that means) when he was with the Red Sox.  Why not associate with 'good Clemens' and leave the Jays, Yankees and Astros to own the dirty part of his career?
 

lambolt

http://b.globe.com/13BHr47
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Sep 28, 2011
164
I wasn't really sure it was worthy of a topic on the main board so hopefully it's OK to put it out here in this thread, specifically about Nomar. He was my favourite player by a good margin (well, Pedro was in there too) and when I finally planned a trip to Boston to see the Red Sox, yes, in 2004*, I was beyond gutted when "the trade" went down literally weeks before we got there. Which totally fucking sucked. I didn't follow the game as closely when he first came up so I missed how utterly awesome he was before the wrist injury, but I mean he was still pretty damn good afterwards, how do you guys feel about Nomah, his career, the injury, "the trade" and what have you.
 
Does anyone have any good links or accounts (or book suggestions?) that really detailed what happened. I recall there was talk that he turned down something like a 4/64 contract or something that was a lot but short of Jeter/ARod, and then before you knew it, everything went tits up, I guess I will dig back through the MLB archives to try and piece together the timeline. I do remember thinking I bet he wished he'd snapped that contract up in hindsight. I felt like a lot of the exit stuff was typical Red Sox bullshit where they smear people on the way out, and made out he was sulking or refusing to play while Jeter was jumping into the stands but did the "true" story ever come out, or get reported from creditable sources on both sides? Was he just benched for injury, attitude problem, what?
 
Also, it DID bug me that the trade apologists trotted out the mantra that without the trade we would NOT have won the World Series. Pretty amazing parallel universe vision if you ask me. I know eyechart and OCab provided some great defense, but I seem to recall at the time thinking I don't know how you can say for sure that without the trade and with Nomar back on the grass we would not have won, or was there some kind of bad atmosphere that really would have ruined things?. Curious how the board here stands on the issue of the trade, now, in hindsight, and on the whole Nomar situation in general.
 
Anyway I thought he was the dogs bollocks and even found his pre batting glove and hand twitching routine tremendously entertaining to watch. My home 5 jersey has now been utilised exactly 14 times, including 12 world series game victories (and 2 losses). Sorry for the slightly moist fanboyish post but I'm genuinely interested in some opinions and links to good info here too.
 
*yes really, and yes I told everyone I chatted to that this would be the year, and I ended up getting to see 5 games including 4 vs the Orioles and Pedros last regular season start at Fenway (against the MFY).
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,750
Miami (oh, Miami!)
lambolt said:
I wasn't really sure it was worthy of a topic on the main board so hopefully it's OK to put it out here in this thread, specifically about Nomar. He was my favourite player by a good margin (well, Pedro was in there too) and when I finally planned a trip to Boston to see the Red Sox, yes, in 2004*, I was beyond gutted when "the trade" went down literally weeks before we got there. Which totally fucking sucked. I didn't follow the game as closely when he first came up so I missed how utterly awesome he was before the wrist injury, but I mean he was still pretty damn good afterwards, how do you guys feel about Nomah, his career, the injury, "the trade" and what have you.
 
Does anyone have any good links or accounts (or book suggestions?) that really detailed what happened. I recall there was talk that he turned down something like a 4/64 contract or something that was a lot but short of Jeter/ARod, and then before you knew it, everything went tits up, I guess I will dig back through the MLB archives to try and piece together the timeline. I do remember thinking I bet he wished he'd snapped that contract up in hindsight. I felt like a lot of the exit stuff was typical Red Sox bullshit where they smear people on the way out, and made out he was sulking or refusing to play while Jeter was jumping into the stands but did the "true" story ever come out, or get reported from creditable sources on both sides? Was he just benched for injury, attitude problem, what?
 
Also, it DID bug me that the trade apologists trotted out the mantra that without the trade we would NOT have won the World Series. Pretty amazing parallel universe vision if you ask me. I know eyechart and OCab provided some great defense, but I seem to recall at the time thinking I don't know how you can say for sure that without the trade and with Nomar back on the grass we would not have won, or was there some kind of bad atmosphere that really would have ruined things?. Curious how the board here stands on the issue of the trade, now, in hindsight, and on the whole Nomar situation in general.
 
Anyway I thought he was the dogs bollocks and even found his pre batting glove and hand twitching routine tremendously entertaining to watch. My home 5 jersey has now been utilised exactly 14 times, including 12 world series game victories (and 2 losses). Sorry for the slightly moist fanboyish post but I'm genuinely interested in some opinions and links to good info here too.
 
*yes really, and yes I told everyone I chatted to that this would be the year, and I ended up getting to see 5 games including 4 vs the Orioles and Pedros last regular season start at Fenway (against the MFY).
 
The decline and fall of the Nomar empire is pretty much all tied to his injury and the club's increased spending.  But for the fastball on the wrist, he could very well have been a franchise cornerstone for years. I view it like this:
 
Nomar was pretty much the man once Vaughn left town and Valentin started to decline (a bit).  At his peak, Nomar was also pretty much the face of the franchise for the national media, although he had nowhere near the media personality Vaughn did.   It was an exciting time when Nomar first came up - Jimy Williams was new and we played well, getting into two post seasons.  The the JW act started to pale. 
 
We picked up Pedro for the '00 season, during which the 26 year old Nomar hit .372 and had Ted Williams saying he Nomar was the guy to break the .400 record.   Nomar was one of the "Holy Trinity of Shortstops" idea (A-Rod, Jeter, Nomar).  He was directly compared to Jeter (often favorably) and in that sense became a kind of an avatar for Boston and the Sox. We didn't make the post-season in '00, but during that offseason we picked up Manny Ramirez.  
 
So basically, at the end of '00 Nomar was the Red Sox.  And the Sox were  poised to start adding pieces.  The core was going to be Nomar, Pedro, Manny, and was currently surrounded by some good but underrated players like Daubach, Wakefield, O'Leary, etc. 
 
Then came the '01 wrist injury.  Out for the season, basically.  During that season, JW was fired, Kerrigan had a short and disastrous tenure, the club was sold, and people focused on new management, new players.
 
In '02, the comeback year, Nomar clearly wasn't the biggest threat in the lineup anymore.  Although he remained among the best SSs in the league, he fell a long way from his personal high water mark in terms of offense.  We also had Damon, Nixon, Varitek, Good-Starter-Lowe, so there were more dynamic/star players on the club, (plus new ownership and a new manager.  Miguel Tejada's MVP season sort of destroyed the whole "Holy Trinity.")
 
In '03, his star had dimmed quite a bit.  Mueller, Ramirez, Nixon and Ortiz outhit him.  Nomar was still very good, but he was to some extent overshadowed.  There was serious talk that the new baseline for Nomar was .880 OPS, not the 1.000 he'd posted two years running before his injury. 
 
By '04, he basically got into a minor press war and had his detractors - although he remained a very productive SS for us, even throughout '04.   There was some sort of "he was dogging it/threatening to sit out games" flap before he was traded; he was unfavorably compared to Jeter as a "selfish" player.  
 
I'm not sure that Ocab/Eyechart were midseason targets that the Sox were dead set on getting (although I could be wrong about that) and that Nomar was the price.  The trade had the smell of "we're dumping Nomar." I remember being shocked when he was traded - which then pretty quickly morphed into not being all that surprised.  So I think the foundation was there.  
 
It's a little unjust that he hardly seems to be associated with the '04 WS victory at all.  
 

Ramon AC

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 19, 2002
3,234
What?
Rovin Romine said:
We picked up Pedro for the '00 season
 
I agree with the vast majority of this post, but Pedro was acquired via trade before the 1998 season.
 
Nomar brought me back to baseball in the winter of 1997-98. I heard that the Red Sox had this shortstop who won a unanimous rookie of the year, and I started paying attention again in 1998 after taking a number of years off during the Boggs/Clemens decline years and the strike fiasco.
 

LoweTek

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
May 30, 2005
2,183
Central Florida
I think there is also suspicion out there Nomar may have enhanced his performance (remember the SI cover?). It was in February, just prior to his wrist injury. Then the way his groin muscle tore from his leg during an AB after he was traded to the Cubs, it was considered such an unusual injury, further suspicion was cast.
 
I'm not usually one to speculate on such things but it ties in a lot of Nomar's issues with temper and surliness which some say ultimately sent him packing.
 
His first pitch swinging used to drive me nuts. The strong AB, deep count philosophy being pressed by the team may have been a factor too.
 
Regarding Clemens, I wonder if he would even show up?
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
LoweTek said:
Regarding Clemens, I wonder if he would even show up?
 
He showed up at Fenway for the last couple of events the Sox invited him to.
 

Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 14, 2005
23,750
Miami (oh, Miami!)
Ramon AC said:
 
I agree with the vast majority of this post, but Pedro was acquired via trade before the 1998 season.
 
Nomar brought me back to baseball in the winter of 1997-98. I heard that the Red Sox had this shortstop who won a unanimous rookie of the year, and I started paying attention again in 1998 after taking a number of years off during the Boggs/Clemens decline years and the strike fiasco.
 
Doh.  Thanks for the correction.   
 
I remember that prior to the season there was some debate about whether or not Nomar should displace Val at SS. 
 

Orel Miraculous

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 16, 2006
1,710
Mostly Airports and Hotels
It is really, really, really hard to overstate just what Nomar meant to the Red Sox and the fandom during those glorious early years.  I would actually venture to say that I've never seen any Red Sox player who was more loved than Nomar was from 1997-2001.  He meant more to the fans during that time period than Pedro in 2000, than Ortiz in 2004, and than Pedroia right now.
 
Why did he mean so much?  Because of Scott Cooper, that's why.  1991 to 1996 was a dark time to be a Red Sox fan.  Three straight sub-.500 teams from 92-94, which was followed by the strike, which was followed by a really fun out-of-nowhere postseason team in 95 that got curb-stomped by the Indians, which was followed by a disappointing third place finish and the ugly departure of the greatest pitcher in club history.  1995 aside (which, even at the time, people understood was kinda fluky) it was an absolutely terrible stretch--a putrid era that is best exemplified by the fact that Scott f'n Cooper was the lone Red Sox representative on the 93 AND 94 All-Star teams.  Scott Cooper!!!  He had a grand total of 22 homeruns over those two All-Star seasons and his OPS+ was 98.  Yet there I was as an eight year old kid going NUTS in my living room when Scott Cooper was announced on national TV at the All-Star Game because he was our guy.  Scott Cooper.  Eight year old me went nuts for Scott Cooper. Sad.
 
The Sox were mediocre and irrelevant.  And then came Nomar.  A homegrown 5-tooler at a premium position who was entertaining as hell to watch, and holy shit what a guy to boot.  The excitement just built and built around him all season ("Hey, this kid's a rookie of the year candidate!" Wow, Ken Griffey Jr. asked him for his autograph at the All-Star Game!!"  "Oh my God, a 30-game hitting streak, are you kidding me!!!"  "Holy fucking shit!  Ted Williams says he reminds him of DiMaggio!!!!"). We started the season thinking he might turn out to be as good as Derek Jeter, watched him blow Jeter out of the water for 6 months, and by September we realized he could turn out to be one of the greatest to ever play the game.  He single-handedly revitalized the club in 1997 and even when Pedro and Manny came on board, the Sox remained his team:
 

 
That issue is from June 2000.  Pedro--for the second year in a row--was in the midst of posting one of the greatest single season pitching performances in baseball history but they were Nomar's Red Sox.  He was the guy who was going to bring us to the promised land. Of course, the 2004 team--and David Ortiz in particular--actually did bring us to the promised land, but that was a star-studded team and the focus was never on any one guy.  Hell, was there even a "face of the franchise" in 04? Papi, Pedro, Manny, Schilling, Tek, and Damon could all stake a claim to that title.  From 1997-2001, though, that question was settled.  It was Nomar.  In fact, he was more than just the face of the franchise he was hope personified in New England.  
 

BoSox Rule

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
2,343
My only regret about this huge run the Sox have been on since 2003 has always been that Nomar was barely part of it. It is actually sad to think about what his career should have been after the 2000 season: A few more batting titles, 3000 hits, just such an amazing player he was. By far my favorite player when I was a kid and while he won't get in to Cooperstown like he was supposed to I'm glad he'll be headlining with Pedro one more time.

I think my favorite experience attending a game was his first game of 2001 vs. Chicago. Seen Pedro plenty of times, Nixon's walkoff vs the A's, etc. Today I say Pedro is my favorite ever which he probably did become but at the time Nomar was an easy choice and I think that is the same for a lot of people.
 

Rasputin

Will outlive SeanBerry
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 4, 2001
29,438
Not here
nattysez said:
"And here's the Texas Con Man, the guy who headed north and started hitting the juice when Dan Duquette described him as being in the 'twilight of his career'... Roger 'Billy from Ohio' Clemens."
 
Dan Duquette didn't describe him as being in the twilight of his career. He said he wanted Clemens to be with the organization into the twilight of his career.
 

Sampo Gida

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 7, 2010
5,044
nattysez said:
All will be forgiven if the Dentist writes the intros thusly:
 
"And now the greatest pitcher in Red Sox history...please sit down, Roger...Pedro Martinez!"
 
"And now one of the most electric home-grown talents Boston has ever seen, a prodigal son returned...please sit down, Roger...Nomar Garciaparra!"
 
"And here's the Texas Con Man, the guy who headed north and started hitting the juice when Dan Duquette described him as being in the 'twilight of his career'... Roger 'Billy from Ohio' Clemens."
 
 
Actually, Clemens had a pretty impressive last season in his contract year.  ERA+ of 139, led the league in K's with 257 and he had 242 IP.   He was especially outstanding in the 2nd half with a 3.16 ERA. I don't know when he went on the juice but I suspect it was before he headed north
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
8,681
Orel Miraculous said:
It is really, really, really hard to overstate just what Nomar meant to the Red Sox and the fandom during those glorious early years.  I would actually venture to say that I've never seen any Red Sox player who was more loved than Nomar was from 1997-2001.  He meant more to the fans during that time period than Pedro in 2000, than Ortiz in 2004, and than Pedroia right now.
 
Why did he mean so much?  Because of Scott Cooper, that's why.  1991 to 1996 was a dark time to be a Red Sox fan.  Three straight sub-.500 teams from 92-94, which was followed by the strike, which was followed by a really fun out-of-nowhere postseason team in 95 that got curb-stomped by the Indians, which was followed by a disappointing third place finish and the ugly departure of the greatest pitcher in club history.  1995 aside (which, even at the time, people understood was kinda fluky) it was an absolutely terrible stretch--a putrid era that is best exemplified by the fact that Scott f'n Cooper was the lone Red Sox representative on the 93 AND 94 All-Star teams.  Scott Cooper!!!  He had a grand total of 22 homeruns over those two All-Star seasons and his OPS+ was 98.  Yet there I was as an eight year old kid going NUTS in my living room when Scott Cooper was announced on national TV at the All-Star Game because he was our guy.  Scott Cooper.  Eight year old me went nuts for Scott Cooper. Sad.  
 
Even more sad - whenever I hear the name 'Scott Cooper', I think of the oft-repeated assertion that the Astros would have taken Cooper in exchange for Larry Andersen if the Sox had insisted on keeping Jeff Bagwell, but Lou Gorman had no idea who Bagwell was. Dark days indeed.
 

DanoooME

above replacement level
SoSH Member
Mar 16, 2008
19,832
Henderson, NV
So this likely means once Gomes leaves, he'll be the last one to wear #5.
 
That will make a cool trivia question, who were the 3 guys to wear #5 after Nomar.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,104
lambolt said:
I wasn't really sure it was worthy of a topic on the main board so hopefully it's OK to put it out here in this thread, specifically about Nomar. He was my favourite player by a good margin (well, Pedro was in there too) and when I finally planned a trip to Boston to see the Red Sox, yes, in 2004*, I was beyond gutted when "the trade" went down literally weeks before we got there. Which totally fucking sucked. I didn't follow the game as closely when he first came up so I missed how utterly awesome he was before the wrist injury, but I mean he was still pretty damn good afterwards, how do you guys feel about Nomah, his career, the injury, "the trade" and what have you.
 
Does anyone have any good links or accounts (or book suggestions?) that really detailed what happened. I recall there was talk that he turned down something like a 4/64 contract or something that was a lot but short of Jeter/ARod, and then before you knew it, everything went tits up, I guess I will dig back through the MLB archives to try and piece together the timeline. I do remember thinking I bet he wished he'd snapped that contract up in hindsight. I felt like a lot of the exit stuff was typical Red Sox bullshit where they smear people on the way out, and made out he was sulking or refusing to play while Jeter was jumping into the stands but did the "true" story ever come out, or get reported from creditable sources on both sides? Was he just benched for injury, attitude problem, what?
 
Also, it DID bug me that the trade apologists trotted out the mantra that without the trade we would NOT have won the World Series. Pretty amazing parallel universe vision if you ask me. I know eyechart and OCab provided some great defense, but I seem to recall at the time thinking I don't know how you can say for sure that without the trade and with Nomar back on the grass we would not have won, or was there some kind of bad atmosphere that really would have ruined things?. Curious how the board here stands on the issue of the trade, now, in hindsight, and on the whole Nomar situation in general.
 
Anyway I thought he was the dogs bollocks and even found his pre batting glove and hand twitching routine tremendously entertaining to watch. My home 5 jersey has now been utilised exactly 14 times, including 12 world series game victories (and 2 losses). Sorry for the slightly moist fanboyish post but I'm genuinely interested in some opinions and links to good info here too.
 
*yes really, and yes I told everyone I chatted to that this would be the year, and I ended up getting to see 5 games including 4 vs the Orioles and Pedros last regular season start at Fenway (against the MFY).
First, to address the bolded, as we recently had the same argument regarding the Peavy trade:  the fact remains the Sox did win in 2004, and OCab and Doug M. were part of that.  It is essentially impossible to go back and determine what would have happened if Nomar had been with the team instead during that same stretch.  They won the wild card comfortably, so it's not clear that the trade had any impact on their making the playoffs. There's not enough difference between Nomar's post-trade 0.819 OPS and Cabrera's 0.785 OPS to make that much of a difference.  Mientkiewicz did not do a whole lot at the plate, but he did help them with positional flexibility in the field.  As to the playoffs, Cabrera did drive in and score a key run early in the ALCS Game 4.  But I can't find the post season fielding stats in 2004, so I really cannot judge his overall impact all that easily. 
 
As to the reasons for the trade, I seem to recall it all started when Nomar turned down a proposed contract extension.  I can't recall if that extension was offered after the 2002 or the 2003 season.  Then things really go ugly during the 2003-04 offseason when the Sox tried to get A-Rod for Manny.  As part of that dominoes that would have fallen, the Sox also would have traded Nomar for Magglio Ordonez.  Word of the Nomar/Ordonez trade leaked out, and I seem to recall Nomar went off on the organization in an interview after the Manny/ARod trade fell through.  At that point, it was obvious that Nomar was going to become a free agent after 2004, and it wasn't clear if the Sox would be able to resign him at that point.  
 
Then Nomar hurt his heel or foot in Spring Training, and we never really hear the exact story as to how it happened (rumors abounded, but nothing ever was confirmed).  He misses the first 2 months of the season, and he struggles mightily in his first month back, not completely unexpected.  Also not unexpected is the fact that Nomar does need to have a day off every few games while his heel recuperates.  That all comes back to haunt him in that infamous July 1st game in Yankee Stadium, in which the Sox battle back from a 3-0 deficit to force extra innings, and then take a 1 run lead in the 13th.  Eyebrows are raised when Nomar is unavailable even for pinch hitting duty, and Cesar Crespo grounds into a double play to end the 13th, and the Sox lose by a run in the bottom of the 13th.  Shank and the gang obviously played this up for all it was worth, and it was never really clear if Nomar was even going to be allowed to pinch hit, or if he declared himself unfit for such duty.  So now things are getting truly ugly. 
 
July comes and Nomar is back to his old self at the plate (1.028 OPS).  And after that infamous affair in the Toilet, he plays every game right up to the All Star Break, and the first 6 games immediately after.  Then he misses 3 of the following 9 games.  The Sox find themselves 8.5 games out of first, in the pack with Anaheim, White Sox, Oakland, and the Rangers for the Wild Card.  Nomar's availability is an unknown on a day-to-day basis, and their backup option is Pokey Reese and his 0.574 OPS.  Chances are very high that Nomar walks in November.  Meanwhile, Theo finds he can get an everyday shortstop with above average defense and a backup first baseman just one season removed from a 0.843 OPS and who also plays superb defense.  And the rest is history.
 
So, I believe it is inaccurate to say the trade was not made for baseball reasons.  It certainly was; I'm not sure the trade happens if Theo is 100% sure he gets the 2002 Nomar for the stretch run.  I'm not sure the trade happens if Theo doesn't get Mientkiewicz, who also provides them with a left handed batter off the bench.  It was overall a very good trade from the Sox baseball perspective when you look solely at the final months of the 2004 season.  It would have been best if Lucchino kept his mouth shut and let the results play itself out on the field.  A simple "While it certainly hurts to trade a franchise icon such as Nomar, we found a deal that we felt was in the best interests of the team going forward, and we therefore had to take it.  We wish Nomar the best in his career going forward, and let him know he's always welcome to come back if circumstances permit" would have sufficed in dousing some of the ugliness that went along with his departure.  
 
Personally, I was hoping the trade would have been the classic win/win, with Nomar going on for a long and successful career with the Cubs.  I was happy for him in 2006 when it looked he may have resurrected his career with the Dodgers.  But his body was slowly betraying him.  It's great that he's getting inducted into the team's HoF; there was always an excitement when he came to the plate in his early years, and some of us do recall he, along with Pedro, was one of the few bright spots in the team's post season appearances in the late 1990's (7 HR's, 5 2B's, 20 RBI in his first 13 playoff games). 
 

am_dial

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
609
Western Mass
On my phone, so can't link, but as I recall it, "things got ugly" with Nomar first in 2001, late in the season, after Jimy was fired (maybe the David Cone vs Mussina near-perfect game?), when bullpen coach John Cumberland got fired during the game and in the clubhouse afterward Nomar said (in earshot of writers) "That's why no one wants to play here," or something, and then (next season?) when Steve Buckley wrote a piece telling Nomar to leave Boston if he didn't like it here, that he didn't deserve to play here, etc.
 

Paradigm

juju all over his tits
SoSH Member
Dec 5, 2003
5,954
Touche?
OilCanShotTupac said:
I'm very happy that Joe Castiglione is getting the recognition he deserves.  He has contributed as much to my enjoyment of the Red Sox as any player on the field. 
 
+1 to this. My high school job was at a Pier 1 Imports, and most nights at 7PM I'd convince the manager to let me work in the stockroom so that I could listen to Joe and Jerry on the radio. When I first moved into college in Boston, our dorms didn't have cable so I put the first game that I could on the radio. Some kid down the hall popped his head in and asked, "is that a game I hear?" Later, when I didn't have money for MLB.TV I'd buy the radio package. Nowadays, if I'm walking around NYC and there's a game on, I'm listening to Joe on the radio. If I'm at work and can't put the game on my screen, it's Joe on the radio. And during the playoffs, when we have to endure the horrors of Joe Buck, I will always try to get the timing just right (and will endure a delay) to listen to Joe instead of the national broadcasters.
 

Hendu for Kutch

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 7, 2006
6,920
Nashua, NH
The parallels between Nomar's career and Drew Bledsoe's are pretty strong.  Both first round picks who generated tremendous excitement from fanbases who hadn't had very much to be excited about.
 
They both had major roles in revitalizing their sport in New England along with another star (Parcells, Pedro), starting sellout streaks and making their team more appealing nationally.
 
Then each was pushed out the door right as their franchise made the leap from good to historic.  They each got a ring they probably wouldn't brag to anyone about, and they both played in a couple more places with decent but not great results.  They're both good, smart guys who have done well for themselves after their careers ended.
 
The major difference is one had a name with a droppable R at the end.  If Bledsoe's first name had been Drewmar, we'd still look back fondly on all "DrewMah!!!!"s that we used to shout at each other.
 

terrisus

formerly: imgran
SoSH Member
DanoooME said:
So this likely means once Gomes leaves, he'll be the last one to wear #5.
 
That will make a cool trivia question, who were the 3 guys to wear #5 after Nomar.
 
 
Greg Blosser said:
 
Gomes, Baldelli... Punto?
 
 
And, to go along with the Scott Cooper discussion from earlier in this thread - 
The last person to wear #5 before Nomar did was Scott Fletcher
 
Yeah, the early 90s were an interesting time to be a Red Sox fan alright...
 

Marbleheader

Moderator
Moderator
SoSH Member
Sep 27, 2004
11,726
Unless the Red Sox have taken the Celtics mantra of 'fuck it, let's retire everyone's number' , I don't see Nomar getting that honor. #45, however, should have its own spot, with an altar for incense and burnt offerings.
 

wrathofvon

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2003
78
Nomar absolutely deserves that honor. Most of you, like Marblehead, the yellowdort and Eric Von weren't fans back then and don't remember his greatness.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 23, 2009
20,689
Maine
Papelbon's Poutine said:
Hey man, Nomar will for we be my binkie when it comes to favorite athletes - most of my passwords involve his name and always will - but his number shouldn't be retired. I wish they had t given it out to the Nick Puntos of the world and just left it "unofficially retired" (much like I wish the Pats has done with #11) but to put his number up on the facade would have been a stretch.
 
I agree with this.  It's curious that they have continued to hand out #5, #24 and #26 but no one has worn #21 since 1996. 
 

Super Nomario

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 5, 2000
14,012
Mansfield MA
Rovin Romine said:
In '03, his star had dimmed quite a bit.  Mueller, Ramirez, Nixon and Ortiz outhit him.  Nomar was still very good, but he was to some extent overshadowed.  There was serious talk that the new baseline for Nomar was .880 OPS, not the 1.000 he'd posted two years running before his injury.
This is sort of true, but his 2003 was a weird season. He was hitting .326/.365/.558 on August 30th, and there was talk of him as an MVP candidate (he ended up 7th) and that he was back to being a star-caliber player. Then he collapsed, hitting .162/.236/.333 the rest of the way and just .265/.333/.327 in the playoffs. The team tried to trade him in the offseason (he was going to Chicago before the ARod deal fell apart). After two healthy seasons, he was hurt and missed much of 2004, and then he was gone. It went south really quickly. After playing 135+ games in six of his first seven seasons, he never played more than 122 games in a season again.
 

ishmael

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 3, 2006
640
lexrageorge said:
Then Nomar hurt his heel or foot in Spring Training, and we never really hear the exact story as to how it happened (rumors abounded, but nothing ever was confirmed).  He misses the first 2 months of the season, and he struggles mightily in his first month back, not completely unexpected.  Also not unexpected is the fact that Nomar does need to have a day off every few games while his heel recuperates.  That all comes back to haunt him in that infamous July 1st game in Yankee Stadium, in which the Sox battle back from a 3-0 deficit to force extra innings, and then take a 1 run lead in the 13th.  Eyebrows are raised when Nomar is unavailable even for pinch hitting duty, and Cesar Crespo grounds into a double play to end the 13th, and the Sox lose by a run in the bottom of the 13th.  Shank and the gang obviously played this up for all it was worth, and it was never really clear if Nomar was even going to be allowed to pinch hit, or if he declared himself unfit for such duty.  So now things are getting truly ugly.  
This was the game Jeter dove into the stands (I could have sworn it was on national TV, but I guess it was just replayed a million times) and it was also the end of a three game sweep for the MFY that put the Sox 8.5 back in the division. Two more reasons Nomar never really lived this one down with the talk radio crowd.