Red Sox fire Juan Nieves

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Laser Show

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SoxJox said:
Ouch.  I missed that.  I thought he was still with the Braves' organization.  Thanks for the update.  Nice to know it appears his health issues have apparently resolved.
Until you posted that I had no idea he had been with the Braves. Definitely good to see him in the dugout again.
 

findguapo

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Rich Dubee should be considered - he is a MA guy, and had a lot of success with the Phillies. He seems like a John Farrell type guy, whatever that means. He is now a minor league pitching coordinator, I am sure he would jump at a chance to get an interview with the Red Sox.
 

joe dokes

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I wonder about the long term / short term.  Mid season, is it better to pick from within the organization, or at least have someone from the org brought in if they hire from outside. Coming in cold is a tall order.
 
OTOH--I dont know shit, and maybe a completely clean set of eyes with no preconceived notions is the best thing.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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In my lifetime said:
I am sure they are working the phones hard to bring in a top of the rotation starter at an acceptable price in terms of prospects and dollars.  For the pen, I would guess that they will first give Barnes a shot to become reliable reliever.
 
Gotta bring up EdRod to see what he can do, before gutting the farm system of higher-tier prospects.
 
That, and also the general age/stuff combination of the three starters signed past 2015, argues for promotion of Bob Kipper for the interim job.  The Sox badly need someone practiced in developing inexperienced pitchers to become effective on-the-job.  In 2013, the Sox didn't need that particular skill, since they had a very experienced staff. 
 
Except for Doubront, who didn't exactly blossom under Nieves, come to think about it.
 

Humphrey

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FinanceAdvice said:
 
Id rather see the likes of Eduardo Rodriquez being brought up and let Barnes mature in pen before firing the pitching coach.  Can the Sox learn to handle success?   
Maybe the point of the firing is that they see it's time to bring up some young arms and don't like Nieves' track record with younger pitchers.    
 
(edit)   Buzzkill more or less beat me to this point 
 

rembrat

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You guys are aware of Juan Nieves' extensive experience as a minor league pitching instructor for the Yankees and the White Sox from 1992 - 2007, yea? Like please stop trying to conjure up logical reasons for his illogical firing. 
 

threecy

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YTF said:
The same Curt Schilling who has several times said in media that he thinks Clay Buchholz lacks the physical and mental toughness to be an ace and questions his desire? Yeah, that oughta' work well.
Perhaps he needs some tough love, because to date he's had bad seasons more often than good.
 
JimD said:
Did Farrell have any input into Nieves's hiring, or was he Ben's/someone else's guy?
Nieves was hired a few weeks after Farrell, so I assume Farrell had some say.
 

litigator02

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rembrat said:
You guys are aware of Juan Nieves' extensive experience as a minor league pitching instructor for the Yankees and the White Sox from 1992 - 2007, yea? Like please stop trying to conjure up logical reasons for his illogical firing. 
 
Does his experience have any bearing on whether he was actually successful as the Sox pitching coach?  Look at this other fellow's resume; I see extensive experience there, too, and I bet you agree that he deserved to be fired.
 
--------------------
He managed in the minor leagues for 16 years, compiling a record of 1,054–903 (.539).
The minor league teams he managed:
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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rembrat said:
You guys are aware of Juan Nieves' extensive experience as a minor league pitching instructor for the Yankees and the White Sox from 1992 - 2007, yea? Like please stop trying to conjure up logical reasons for his illogical firing. 
 
How about this for logical reasoning:
(a.) the man's job was to get the most out of his pitching staff, but
(b.) after 28 games, the staff was dead last among AL teams in the most important bottom-line category, at 5.14 RA/G, and
(c.) the pitching staff was significantly underperforming its peripherals by almost one run per game, at 4.15 xFIP, thus
(d.) the man wasn't getting the most out of his pitching staff, and therefore 
(e.) hadn't done the job he was hired to do, over the first 28 games.
 
I have no problem with this firing.  Then again, I'm on record as wanting BobbyV gone one month into 2012, too.
 

WenZink

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Buzzkill Pauley said:
 
Gotta bring up EdRod to see what he can do, before gutting the farm system of higher-tier prospects.
 
That, and also the general age/stuff combination of the three starters signed past 2015, argues for promotion of Bob Kipper for the interim job.  The Sox badly need someone practiced in developing inexperienced pitchers to become effective on-the-job.  In 2013, the Sox didn't need that particular skill, since they had a very experienced staff. 
 
Except for Doubront, who didn't exactly blossom under Nieves, come to think about it.
 
Eduardo Rodriguez is the youngest pitcher in his league, and I'm guessing he has a 160 inning limit for 2015.  He's already thrown 25 innings at Pawtucket, so if he was called up to be in the rotation this year, he'd be on track to be shut down around Labor Day (unless he has a lot of "Wade Miley" starts of 3 innings or less).
 
That being said, some of the staff at Soxprospects.com have seen him and think he might be ready for the majors.  His scouting report reads a lot like a left-handed Joe Kelly, where his biggest problem, at times, is his command (not control) of his very hard fastball.
 
I'm guessing that if Rodriguez does make a significant contribution to the Sox this year, he'll be transitioned to the pen, mid summer, to keep his innings down.  But the sox may not want to tamper with a promising young talent, so we may just see him make a spot-start or two in August.
 

rembrat

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Buzzkill Pauley said:
 
How about this for logical reasoning:
(a.) the man's job was to get the most out of his pitching staff, but
(b.) after 28 games, the staff was dead last among AL teams in the most important bottom-line category, at 5.14 RA/G, and
(c.) the pitching staff was significantly underperforming its peripherals by almost one run per game, at 4.15 xFIP, thus
(d.) the man wasn't getting the most out of his pitching staff, and therefore 
(e.) hadn't done the job he was hired to do, over the first 28 games.
 
I have no problem with this firing.  Then again, I'm on record as wanting BobbyV gone one month into 2012, too.
 
Welp, better go ahead and fire Chilli as well.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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WenZink said:
 
I'm guessing that if Rodriguez does make a significant contribution to the Sox this year, he'll be transitioned to the pen, mid summer, to keep his innings down.  But the sox may not want to tamper with a promising young talent, so we may just see him make a spot-start or two in August.
 
We've discussed this before, but I think it would be great if they transitioned ERod into a Kevin Gausman type role where he can pitch a couple of innings at a time, get used to the big leagues, and kept his innings count down.  If he keeps going this way, he won't have a lot left to learn at the AAA level.
 

Snoop Soxy Dogg

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Buzzkill Pauley said:
 
How about this for logical reasoning:
(a.) the man's job was to get the most out of his pitching staff, but
(b.) after 28 games, the staff was dead last among AL teams in the most important bottom-line category, at 5.14 RA/G, and
(c.) the pitching staff was significantly underperforming its peripherals by almost one run per game, at 4.15 xFIP, thus
(d.) the man wasn't getting the most out of his pitching staff, and therefore 
(e.) hadn't done the job he was hired to do, over the first 28 games.
 
I have no problem with this firing.  Then again, I'm on record as wanting BobbyV gone one month into 2012, too.
 
If that's the standard, frankly, it's easier to identify who should not be fired. Because pretty much everybody over there has performed terribly. After 28 games. 
 
The contorsions to try to justify this are probably not necessary. I can get doing it if you think they needed a new voice, and this wasn't going to work any more, as many have argued reasonably enough upthread. But the whole meme about how incompetent the guy was and how he never helped anybody (hyperbole alert) are a little much.
 
Edit: or what rembrat said.
 

Cellar-Door

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Every pitching coach has a track record of success elsewhere. That's how you get the job.
 

grimshaw

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Snoop Soxy Dogg said:
 
If that's the standard, frankly, it's easier to identify who should not be fired. Because pretty much everybody over there has performed terribly. After 28 games. 
 
The contorsions to try to justify this are probably not necessary. I can get doing it if you think they needed a new voice, and this wasn't going to work any more, as many have argued reasonably enough upthread. But the whole meme about how incompetent the guy was and how he never helped anybody (hyperbole alert) are a little much.
 
Edit: or what rembrat said.
28 games isn't the standard . .I mean he coached last year too.
Aside from their big 3 who were all moved.
Rubby was about half a run higher from his xFIP to his ERA
Doubront was 1.18
Clay was 1.3
Brandon Workman was 1
Webster and Renaudo were terrible.
Peavey was terrible too, and then was a difference maker in SF.
Joe Kelly was so so, but is now just the latest underperforming guy with great stuff that hasn't translated consistently.
It's not a good track record the past year+.
 
I have no problem blaming Ben somewhat for not doing so hot in recent SP pitcher evaluation, but it would be nice if a pitching coach could occasionally turn water into wine.
 

WenZink

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wade boggs chicken dinner said:
 
We've discussed this before, but I think it would be great if they transitioned ERod into a Kevin Gausman type role where he can pitch a couple of innings at a time, get used to the big leagues, and kept his innings count down.  If he keeps going this way, he won't have a lot left to learn at the AAA level.
 
It depends upon how the Sox season goes.  If they stay in the race, then it may be worth the risk in development to transition Rodriguez to the pen.  If the Sox fall out of it, however, they have to plan on ERod being a part of the rotation next Spring.  He's the only candidate to be a top of the rotation starter that they have right now.  He's the first one they've had since Jon Lester came up almost 9 years ago.  If you take JHenry at his word, the Sox aren't going to go out and pay $130+ mil for some 30+ year old Ace on the FA market.  So, I have to think the care and nurturing of Rodriguez is a huge key to their future.  And that's not saying he might not take a few years to develop into a #1, or even be a complete washout.  But I don't see any other way path right now.
 
So I'm assuming they'll be very careful and very deliberate with Rodriguez.
 

joe dokes

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rembrat said:
 
Welp, better go ahead and fire Chilli as well.
 
Sox arfe roughly league average offensively.  Not sure that's the comparison to make.
 

AbbyNoho

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rembrat said:
 
Welp, better go ahead and fire Chilli as well.
 
Why do you keep repeating yourself with shitty one liners everywhere? People point out how wrong you are, you wait a page, then you make the same stupid comment again.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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WenZink said:
 
It depends upon how the Sox season goes.  If they stay in the race, then it may be worth the risk in development to transition Rodriguez to the pen.  If the Sox fall out of it, however, they have to plan on ERod being a part of the rotation next Spring.  He's the only candidate to be a top of the rotation starter that they have right now.  He's the first one they've had since Jon Lester came up almost 9 years ago.  If you take JHenry at his word, the Sox aren't going to go out and pay $130+ mil for some 30+ year old Ace on the FA market.  So, I have to think the care and nurturing of Rodriguez is a huge key to their future.  And that's not saying he might not take a few years to develop into a #1, or even be a complete washout.  But I don't see any other way path right now.
 
So I'm assuming they'll be very careful and very deliberate with Rodriguez.
He might indeed have turned a corner after the trade, but Soxprospects has his ceiling as a #3, and he wasn't all that much to look at while at Bowie in '13 and '14.  People are banking a whole lot on what amounts to about sixty innings of AA-AAA work in the Sox organization.
 

Buzzkill Pauley

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rembrat said:
 
Welp, better go ahead and fire Chilli as well.
 
Maybe they should, but that would be for another thread.
 
I don't think anyone here is blaming Juan Nieves for all the Sox pitching problems.  But the data shows that the pitchers have woefully underperformed this season under his guidance.  I'm sure he had ample opportunity to explain what he was doing to the Sox brass, and to explain why it wasn't working.  Thereafter, if the Sox brass still think he's not part of the long-term solution to the team's biggest problem, then they should move on asap, and try to salvage as much of the season as possible. 
 
It wasn't his fault that the pitchers didn't pitch better, but was his responsibility.
 

Rasputin

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P'tucket said:
He might indeed have turned a corner after the trade, but Soxprospects has his ceiling as a #3, and he wasn't all that much to look at while at Bowie in '13 and '14.  People are banking a whole lot on what amounts to about sixty innings of AA-AAA work in the Sox organization.
 
That's about a third of a season and he hasn't just been good he's been frikkin' brilliant. Good but not great starting pitchers have occasional brilliant starts. I don't think they go through ten brilliant starts all that often. We're obviously a long way from him being a stud in the bigs, but of the guys we've got, he looks like the best.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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Rasputin said:
 
That's about a third of a season and he hasn't just been good he's been frikkin' brilliant. Good but not great starting pitchers have occasional brilliant starts. I don't think they go through ten brilliant starts all that often. We're obviously a long way from him being a stud in the bigs, but of the guys we've got, he looks like the best.
The last would be Henry Owens, about a year ago, with the predictable call-him-up results around here when the pitching went south last season.
 
I'm not said Rodriguez isn't any good or that he's going to bust, but we are indeed more likely than not a long way from him being a stud in the bigs.  I hope I'm wrong.
 

rembrat

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Andrew said:
 
Why do you keep repeating yourself with shitty one liners everywhere? People point out how wrong you are, you wait a page, then you make the same stupid comment again.
 
Aside from my Chili post please show me all the "shitty one-liners" and how I have been shown to be wrong. I'll wait.
 

E5 Yaz

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rembrat said:
 
Aside from my Chili post please show me all the "shitty one-liners" and how I have been shown to be wrong. I'll wait.
 
It's because Andrew thinks we look alike
 

FinanceAdvice

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Humphrey said:
Maybe the point of the firing is that they see it's time to bring up some young arms and don't like Nieves' track record with younger pitchers.    
 
(edit)   Buzzkill more or less beat me to this point 
Point well taken.
 

WenZink

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P'tucket said:
He might indeed have turned a corner after the trade, but Soxprospects has his ceiling as a #3, and he wasn't all that much to look at while at Bowie in '13 and '14.  People are banking a whole lot on what amounts to about sixty innings of AA-AAA work in the Sox organization.
Rodriguez had a knee injury, which delayed his development.  And while his ceiling at Soxprospects is still listed as "quality #3" (versus "solid #3 for Owens), I expect an uptick in his ceiling, based on the scouting reports from that site on his results, this year, at Pawtucket.  You can tell how highly the Sox regard ERod, by the fact that, after a year of poor results in the Oriole's system, the Sox promoted him to AAA this year on the basis of just 5 weeks at Portland at the end of 2014.  He's the youngest starting pitcher in AAA at the start of the season, so there was no need to rush him, unless they felt he was ready.
 
For better, or worse,he's the best starting pitching prospect in the system.
 

Hee Sox Choi

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rembrat said:
 
Aside from my Chili post please show me all the "shitty one-liners" and how I have been shown to be wrong. I'll wait.
How about Nava stats vs. Rs for 2012-2014:  .300/.391/.437.  But he's HORRIBLE and worthless according to you.  (BTW, I selected the range of '12-'14 because that's what ESPN has for their 3 year range.  Nava has had 42 ABs this year.)  Nava is a nice 4/5 OF to have on the roster and he can back-up 1B.  
 
P'tucket said:
He might indeed have turned a corner after the trade, but Soxprospects has his ceiling as a #3, and he wasn't all that much to look at while at Bowie in '13 and '14.  People are banking a whole lot on what amounts to about sixty innings of AA-AAA work in the Sox organization.
SoxProspects seems to be confused about him--or maybe it's that their assessment of him confuses *me*. In their write-up of Rodriguez, they say, as you note, that he has the ceiling of a #3. In their rankings, however, they rate his floor as a 4 on their scale ("Impactful Bench Player") and his ceiling as a 7 ("All-Star").
 
FWIW, Owens, Moncada, and Swihart all receive "4-7" evaluations.
 

charlieoscar

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twibnotes said:
So you didn't enjoy '04?

Either way, don't let the door hit you in the ass. Buh bye
 
 
Rudy Pemberton said:
 
Oh, so Schilling was pitching coach in '04 and '07? I must have missed that.
 
The ...don't let the door hit you in the ass. Buh bye isn't a bad idea, though. While there is some great work put forth on this board, the sheer stupidity of some members is overwhelming.
 

pjr

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Nick Cafardo @nickcafardo
· 5h 5 hours ago
The Red Sox received formal permission from the Indians to speak with Carl Willis, their AAA piching coach.

https://twitter.com/nickcafardo/status/596785443317878787
 

joe dokes

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ponchsox said:
So this team can't hit either and Chili gets a free pass?
 
Since Chili's the one who slammed Hanley into the wall AND pushed Ortiz into the umpire, then yes, there should be ramifications.
 
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