Red Sox end of season press conference

[chawson]

Ok, sure: Crawford and Bello were both "decent" pitchers this year (who also happened to be below league average according to the most commonly used statistic to measure pitcher production). That does not mean the Red Sox are better off for having not signed Shota Imanaga because hey, now we know we have a couple of guys who would be decent options to fill out the back half of a rotation on a good team.

And, again, what's more pertinent for this conversation is the fact that the Red Sox did not deliberately decide to pass on free agent pitchers in order to "see what the kids can do." They said they were going to sign multiple pitchers, they tried and failed to sign multiple pitchers, and then they went into damage control mode. I just cant believe people bought it.

I understand that you are mad but you are wrong.

They did not say they would sign multiple pitchers. They said they would target pitching. You may be confusing it with what Alex Speier reported, that "the Sox will add starting pitching — at least one starter, possibly two."

And they have. Since Breslow was hired, they've added four starting pitchers who could see time in the rotation next year, in Giolito, Priester, Criswell and Fitts. They acquired a promising starter in David Sandlin, a high-variance yet promising arm currently in AA. And they drafted/traded for a guy who looks like a solid closer in Justin Slaten, who isn't a FA until 2030. They also drafted, in the 2nd round, a pretty interesting guy in Payton Tolle.

There are a few ways to measure a breakout. Kutter Crawford, a guy we've got under team control for four more years, was the #20 SP in MLB through the All-Star break by fWAR. He had a really bad second half — more accurately, a terrible next five starts and a so-so final eight to finish out the year.

Crawford exceeded his previous season's innings threshold by 50 IP. That's significant going forward. Of course it's no given that Crawford can stay healthy and effective — true for all starters — but having this guy as a cheap and durable #3-4 is immensely valuable. Building their young starters' innings counts was a priority this season. Breslow said exactly that in yesterday's press conference.

Houck of course was a major breakout, and threw 70 IP more than last year. Bello was a little shaky but finished strong, with a 3.66 ERA/3.74 xFIP since July 1. Pivetta pitched well enough that he's going to net us a draft pick.

From where we are now, I would much rather have Kutter Crawford going forward than Seth Lugo's age 35 and 36 seasons. Would the Red Sox be better off having signed Shota Imanaga? Probably. But there's been a lot of evidence presented in this thread that he wanted to play for the Cubs.

Of course I want the Red Sox to make the postseason every year, but I just don't see reason to be aggrieved about this. It seems totally, totally reasonable to me that Breslow would want to take a year to assess before making major decisions, especially since he implemented a major pitching development overhaul this past season. There's strong evidence of a plan and the behavior supports the plan.

It's an info-gathering year. There were like, a dozen reports about how the Red Sox wanted to improve the 2024 team, but not at the expense of the future, and what we saw supported that. I think that's smart. In the time since, we saw significant, if differing, leaps forward from Duran, Houck, Hamilton, Abreu, Crawford, Rafaela, Slaten, Romy Gonzalez, Luis Guerrero, and more, with some incredible strides among players at the minor league level. If we had not had significant injuries to Casas, Story, and Giolito, I think we would have snuck into the playoffs. But I'm glad we did not spend a lot of roster space, financial, or prospect capital to paper over those injuries.

 

[8slim]

I did some research this morning...

In terms of winning percentage, 2020 through 2024 is the worst cumulative five seasons (0.486) of Red Sox baseball since 1964 through 1968 (0.474).

The seasons ending in 2023 and 2024 are the only five-year cycles of under .500 baseball since 1994 (0.495) prior to 1969.

I post this not to be a downer or stir the pot. I do so because we really have been in the midst of a particularly bad stretch of Red Sox baseball in recent years.

Like many others, I believe there are more reasons to be optimistic this offseason than at any point since 2019. And I truly hope the front office is committed to acquiring everything this team needs to be a division winner in 2025.

Because the past 5 years have been historically lousy.

 

[Midnight Ryder Jones]

I understand that you are mad but you are wrong.

They did not say they would sign multiple pitchers. They said they would target pitching. You may be confusing it with what Alex Speier reported, that "the Sox will add starting pitching — at least one starter, possibly two."

And they have. Since Breslow was hired, they've added four starting pitchers who could see time in the rotation next year, in Giolito, Priester, Criswell and Fitts. They acquired a promising starter in David Sandlin, a high-variance yet promising arm currently in AA. And they drafted/traded for a guy who looks like a solid closer in Justin Slaten, who isn't a FA until 2030. They also drafted, in the 2nd round, a pretty interesting guy in Payton Tolle.

Absolutely absurd apologia of a failed offseason. We know for a fact that Breslow wanted to sign multiple pitchers because he literally tried to sign multiple pitchers. The Red Sox made confirmed free agent offers to Giolio, Yamamoto, Imanaga, Lugo, and Jack Flaherty (and those are just the offers we know of) and they also engaged in trade talks with the Mariners for one of their starters. They failed at each of these attempts and Breslow directly acknowledged that they missed out on their targets:

“I know at this point it sounds like kind of empty words to say we’re engaged in every path and trying to pursue every opportunity, but it’s true that we are, and they don’t always work out,” Breslow said. We’re still going to work as hard as we possibly can towards that. There are still pitchers out there. We’re still engaged in conversations with free agents and teams via trade. It’s been a challenge. I think a lot of teams are seeing that. Starting pitching is highly, highly desirable."

To suggest that 2024 was always supposed to be "an info gathering year" and that the Red Sox met their offseason goals by signing Giolito, Criswell, Fitts, and Sandlin is the most rose-colored revisionist history imaginable.

 

[chawson]

Apologia? I'm just following my local baseball team, man. You're acting like there's some crime being committed here.

Can you find evidence the Sox made an offer on Jack Flaherty? I don't recall that. It also seems distorted to say they "failed" in trade talks with the Mariners when the available reporting (from Alex Speier) says they "approached the Mainers...and were rebuffed."

Of those you listed, only Imanaga was offered a contract after Giolito signed. Which meant the Sox were in on the Yamamoto (who missed half the season) sweepstakes, wanted one from the Lugo/Giolito tier, and then were modestly interested in Imanaga, possibly with a follow-up trade (because signing Imanaga would have given them a rotation of Giolito/Imanaga/Bello/Pivetta/Houck/Whitlock/Crawford). It's likely an Imanaga signing would have meant no Houck breakout.

 

[Midnight Ryder Jones]

Apologia? I'm just following my local baseball team, man. You're acting like there's some crime being committed here.

Can you find evidence the Sox made an offer on Jack Flaherty? I don't recall that. It seems distorted to say they "failed" in trade talks with the Mariners when the available reporting (from Alex Speier) says they "approached the Mainers...and were rebuffed."

Of those you listed, only Imanaga was offered a contract after Giolito signed. Which meant the Sox were in on the Yamamoto (who missed half the season) sweepstakes, wanted one from the Lugo/Giolito tier, and then were modestly interested in Imanaga, possibly with a follow-up trade (because signing Imanaga would have given them a rotation of Giolito/Imanaga/Bello/Pivetta/Houck/Whitlock/Crawford). It's likely an Imanaga signing would have meant no Houck breakout.

This is from just last week:

Last offseason, the Sox pursued — but were outbid for — free agents such as Seth Lugo, Shota Imanaga, and Jack Flaherty, all of whom excelled this year. “Were we on the right guys? And I think the answer is yes, which I think bodes well for our ability to identify the right guys again,” said Breslow. “The other side of that is, ‘But they aren’t on the Boston Red Sox right now.’ And I think there are lessons learned there as well.”

That is Breslow himself admitting that they wanted more pitching last offseason and need to figure out why they failed to acquire it. You're defending the team's offseason failures with a narrative ("it was an information-gathering year, they deliberately chose to give rotation spots to the internal options") that not even Breslow himself is claiming.

 

[chawson]

This is from just last week:


That is Breslow himself admitting that they wanted more pitching last offseason and need to figure out why they failed to acquire it. You're defending the team's offseason failures with a narrative ("it was an information-gathering year, they deliberately chose to give rotation spots to the internal options") that not even Breslow himself is claiming.

Didn't see that, thanks. So it looks like Flaherty was among the guys they were targeting in the Lugo/Giolito tier. Flaherty signed with the Tigers Dec 20th; Giolito agreed to terms on Dec. 29th.

That the Sox were interested in signing Lugo, Flaherty and Giolito doesn't mean they wanted to sign all of them. No argument for me we signed the one who turned out to be least productive in 2024. Injuries are no fun.

I do not see in that Breslow quote him saying that he wanted more pitching last offseason. And as I've said, signing more would have precluded one or more of 2024's favorable developments. But I do understand that you are mad.

 

[Bigdogx]

No one's listening to you Kennedy, we'll see the actions (or not) in December.

I'm glad to see others hate this man as much as i do.

He is a POS politician in my book, the man might as well go to the big gold dome down the street as he does nothing but spin a web of BS and pretends that he cares!

 

[NickEsasky]

Didn't see that, thanks. So it looks like Flaherty was among the guys they were targeting in the Lugo/Giolito tier. Flaherty signed with the Tigers Dec 20th; Giolito agreed to terms on Dec. 29th.

That the Sox were interested in signing Lugo, Flaherty and Giolito doesn't mean they wanted to sign all of them. No argument for me we signed the one who turned out to be least productive in 2024. Injuries are no fun.

I do not see in that Breslow quote him saying that he wanted more pitching last offseason. And as I've said, signing more would have precluded one or more of 2024's favorable developments. But I do understand that you are mad.

Rich coming from the guy who has a fit every time Chris Cotillo posts something on Twitter.

 

[Ale Xander]

Kennedy is just bad at this.

Every day that he is still there is a mistake

 

[BigSoxFan]

Rich coming from the guy who has a fit every time Chris Cotillo posts something on Twitter.

It’s the same tired act. Projecting anger onto everyone who is remotely critical of the front office.

 

[Midnight Ryder Jones]

I do not see in that Breslow quote him saying that he wanted more pitching last offseason.

Do you really need to have everything explicitly spelled out for you, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

“I know at this point it sounds like kind of empty words to say we’re engaged in every path and trying to pursue every opportunity, but it’s true that we are, and they don’t always work out.”

"We’re still going to work as hard as we possibly can towards that. There are still pitchers out there."

"It’s been a challenge. I think a lot of teams are seeing that. Starting pitching is highly, highly desirable."

T"hey aren’t on the Boston Red Sox right now.’ And I think there are lessons learned there..."

Do any of those quotes read to you like "Yeah, we got exactly what wanted out of the offseason. We fully intended to sign one just reclamation project and leave the rest of the rotation spots open to cheap internal options. Mission accomplished."

And as I've said, signing more would have precluded one or more of 2024's favorable developments. But I do understand that you are mad.

There were 38 games started by Cooper Criswell, Josh Winckowski, Richard Fitts, Zack Kelly, Brennan Bernardino, Chase Anderson, and James Paxton. There were also 26 games started by Nick Pivetta, whom the Red Sox seem to have no long-term interest in whatsoever. There were an additional 63 starts by Kutter Crawford and Brayan Bello, both of whom were below league-average. The idea that the Red Sox would've had too many pitchers if they'd signed Imanaga or Flaherty -- or that they somehow would've hamstrung their future roster construction -- is absurd on its face.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I for one am thrilled that the Sox avoided the Jordan Montgomery disaster. They now have resources to get a real pitcher, not someone that had a 2 month run among a career of mediocrity.

With a real spring training I think Jordan Montgomery would have been a far different pitcher than he was this year.

 

[chawson]

Rich coming from the guy who has a fit every time Chris Cotillo posts something on Twitter.

Yeah, I think his reporting is often speculative and histrionic, and inflammatory to the point where it ignores a lot of basic concepts about the game. It's aimed at a subset of fan whose understanding of the sport isn't especially high and whose enjoyment of it largely consists of barking about their unmet consumer entitlements. He bums me out. I'm a Speier guy.

There were 38 games started by Cooper Criswell, Josh Winckowski, Richard Fitts, Zack Kelly, Brennan Bernardino, Chase Anderson, and James Paxton. The idea that the Red Sox would've had too many pitchers if they'd signed Imanaga or Flaherty is absurd on its face.

So? Are you mad because you'd never heard of them before this year?

Criswell started half of those 38 and he had a 3.49 ERA in those starts. Winckowski started six and had a 2.42 ERA. Fitts started four for a 1.74 ERA. Kelly and Bernardino were openers, but let's keep going — Kelly's ERA as a "starter" was 0.00 across 7 games, and Bernardino's was also 0.00 across his 3 opener games. Paxton had three starts for a 4.09 ERA. Chase Anderson started one (1) time, and it did not go well (5 ER in 1.2 IP).

Here's the combined SP line of all of those guys you're complaining about:

38 G, 152 IP, 3.14 ERA

 

[Midnight Ryder Jones]

So? Are you mad because you'd never heard of them before this year?

Criswell started half of those 38 and he had a 3.49 ERA in those starts. Winckowski started six and had a 2.42 ERA. Fitts started four for a 1.74 ERA. Kelly and Bernardino were openers, but let's keep going — Kelly's ERA as a "starter" was 0.00 across 7 games, and Bernardino's was also 0.00 across his 3 opener games. Paxton had three starts for a 4.09 ERA. Chase Anderson started one (1) time, and it did not go well (5 ER in 1.2 IP).

Here's the combined SP line of all of those guys you're complaining about:

38 G, 152 IP, 3.14 ERA

I give up, you're right: between those outstanding 38 starts and the "breakouts" of Kutter Crawford, Brayan Bello, and Garrett Whitlock, the Red Sox pitching this year sure was awesome. Thank god we didn't get stuck with those cumbersome deals for Yamamoto, Imanaga, Flaherty, or Lugo, all of whom, according to you, Breslow didn't actually want, despite trying to acquire.

 

[lexrageorge]

With a real spring training I think Jordan Montgomery would have been a far different pitcher than he was this year.

He’s been a league average pitcher his entire career other than a 2 month run in 2023. Now, that is worth something, and his true talent is probably better than what he showed in Arizona. But hardly the pitcher worth overpaying for.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

I give up, you're right: between those outstanding 38 starts and the "breakouts" of Kutter Crawford, Brayan Bello, and Garrett Whitlock, the Red Sox pitching this year sure was awesome. Thank god we didn't get stuck with those cumbersome deals for Yamamoto, Imanaga, Flaherty, or Lugo, all of whom, according to you, Breslow didn't actually want, despite trying to acquire.

Where did chawson or anyone say that Breslow didn't actually want any of those pitchers? He pursued them, made offers, and those offers weren't good enough. That doesn't strike me as not wanting the players. That strikes me as underestimating their markets/value. Shit fucking happens and you move on to plan B or C or whatever.

You don't like how things worked out. That's fine. But let's not make it out that the people running the team are intentionally trying to run into the ground. Signing free agents is not a one way road. Not every one that gets away gets away because the team didn't actually want him. Sometimes (most times) they get away because the player doesn't want to sign or another team wants them more.

 

[nighthob]

I think the disagreement is about which pieces they were short of. Talking about missing on Lorenzen or Imanaga is missing the point. As the season played out, the team was actually okay on mid-rotation staters. The issue was the feast or famine offense, the terrible defense, and the homers given up by the pen.

They could have even survived the feast or famine offense if the defense had stabilized before the pitching staff imploded. Some of this, I think, normalizes next year with Story at SS and Mayer working out his offensive kinks in Worcester (and therefore available as an in-season sub). Grissom should help turn 2B into less of a black hole. The improved D up the middle alone should help the starters.

One thing I would not be opposed to, assuming the deal were right, would be including Casas as part of a deal for a cost-controlled top of the rotation starter, moving Rafi to 1B, and turning 3B over Campbell. As of now he'll probably break camp as the super sub (he simply hits the ball too hard to keep out of the majors), but I wouldn't be opposed to him as the everyday 3B (improving the IF D in the equation). But given how good Casas is it would have to be a heck of a deal.

 

[Midnight Ryder Jones]

Where did chawson or anyone say that Breslow didn't actually want any of those pitchers? He pursued them, made offers, and those offers weren't good enough. That doesn't strike me as not wanting the players. That strikes me as underestimating their markets/value. Shit fucking happens and you move on to plan B or C or whatever.

He explicitly said that the Red Sox only intended to sign one starter, because Breslow viewed 2024 as a "fact-gathering year" and wanted to keep the rotation spots open. He then said it's a good thing that the Sox didn't sign any of these other pitchers, because doing so would've handicapped roster construction going forward. This was his response to someone who criticized the Sox for not being more aggressive in the mid-tier starter market:

From our perch today, the upside in our case is that we have mini-breakouts from Houck, Crawford, and Bello. They weren’t going to put Pivetta in the pen. And they signed Giolito for the last piece. (That Giolito got hurt in spring training is back luck.)

The decision to clear three starting rotation lanes for Bello, Crawford, Houck, and Whitlock to emerge helps us in 2025 and beyond more than it would have to sign one of those guys. Anyone else we would have added to the mix would have precluded or forestalled those breakouts.

This is a completely invented narrative of the last offseason that belies everything Breslow said before the offseason started, belies his actions during the offseason, and belies what he said last week. There was no decision to clear spots, they just missed out on their targets because they misread the market. It's also just plain silly: none of those contracts would have hurt the team going forward. But one of them very well could've put this year's team in the postseason, in addition to giving them one less thing to put on their offseason to-do list this year.

 

[simplicio]

moving Rafi to 1B, and turning 3B over Campbell. As of now he'll probably break camp as the super sub (he simply hits the ball too hard to keep out of the majors), but I wouldn't be opposed to him as the everyday 3B (improving the IF D in the equation). But given how good Casas is it would have to be a heck of a deal.

Have Campbell's throws improved? Here's SP:
Arm: Fringe-average arm. Passable on the left side of the infield, but best suited for second base.

That doesn't inspire confidence.

 

[chawson]

He explicitly said that the Red Sox only intended to sign one starter, because Breslow viewed 2024 as a "fact-gathering year" and wanted to keep the rotation spots open. He then said it's a good thing that the Sox didn't sign any of these other pitchers, because doing so would've handicapped roster construction going forward. This was his response to someone who criticized the Sox for not being more aggressive in the mid-tier starter market:



This is a completely invented narrative of the last offseason that belies everything Breslow said before the offseason started, belies his own actions, and belies what he said last week. There was no decision to clear spots, they just missed out on their targets because they misread the market. It's also just plain silly: none of those contracts would have hurt the team going forward. But one of them very well could've put this year's team in the postseason, in addition given them one less thing on their offseason to-do list this year.

You're losing cohesion here. I called 2024 an info-gathering year — not Breslow. You've keyed in on it three times now, and I'm not sure why it bothers you. I used it as an informal term meant to describe a top executive's first year with an organization during which he implemented major developmental changes, plus saw numerous young players grow and adapt to the bigs.

If you think the Red Sox misread the market and intended to sign all of Yamamoto, Flaherty, Giolito, Lugo, Montgomery and Imanaga because they showed varying levels of interest in each, you're welcome to.

 

[Montana Fan]

Here's the combined SP line of all of those guys you're complaining about:

38 G, 152 IP, 3.14 ERA

Anybody like apples?

 

[nvalvo]

Have Campbell's throws improved? Here's SP:
Arm: Fringe-average arm. Passable on the left side of the infield, but best suited for second base.

That doesn't inspire confidence.

I think they might have, yeah. Campbell is one of those guys who just hasn’t played a ton of high-level baseball because of his trajectory through the NCAA. He arrived as less of a finished product than most guys drafted out of the ACC. A writeup from last year may be less informative than it would be for others.

He only had 44 IP at 3rd, apparently, but the defensive reports had him okay at SS.

 

[NickEsasky]

Anybody like apples?

I prefer watching the Red Sox in the playoffs but to each their own.

 

[drjackmac]

If they want to have a successful season they need to get rid of Cora. He carries bad Karma since his return.

 

[simplicio]

Can't find karma on Statcast, what does that measure?

 

[dynomite]

I prefer watching the Red Sox in the playoffs but to each their own.

The extent to which people are going to defend a team that won 81 games this year, 78 last year, and 78 the year before that is remarkable.

In the past 15 (yikes) years on this board I hope I've established a record of not being reactionary, of preaching patience while the Red Sox found their way to wild success and 4 World Series championships. I'm deeply appreciative of all of that.

So I want to agree with @chawson and @Montana Fan and others preaching patience... But I don't. I'm with you and @Midnight Ryder Jones, although I do think the tone of this argument is getting away from us a little.

The idea that the front office met their offseason goals -- or their in-season goals -- this year is silly. Oh, those guys had a 3.15 combined ERA? Then why did the team go 81-81 and miss the playoffs? Sure, defense, bullpen, etc. But what about the fact that Kutter Crawford fell apart after April (5.03 ERA after April, ERA over 6 in the 2nd half per @Petagine in a Bottle in another thread).

Crawford should have been pitching out of the bullpen by August/September... which, by the way, could have helped improve the bullpen.

Giolito was their big splash of the offseason for pitching, and he hurt his arm in Spring Training and didn't pitch a single inning. James Paxton gave us 3 starts and was lost for the season. Liam Hendriks never made it to the Majors. Rich Hill was DFA after a a few innings. Lucas Sims and Luis Garcia were complete disasters in the bullpen. Criswell was a cromulent 5th starter and extra arm. But this team (obviously) needed more than that.

Meanwhile Valdez was given 200 ABs at 2B to put up a 74 OPS+ and Bobby Dalbec and Garrett Cooper (both had double-take OPS+ of 16) both got another 150 at a crucial offensive position.

This represents, by any measure, a failure.

I've said elsewhere in this thread I think the 2024 season was a combination of bad luck (Giolito, Story, Casas, Whitlock, Grissom) and bad decisions. Both deserve to be acknowledged.

 

[BringBackMo]

Do you really need to have everything explicitly spelled out for you, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

It would be really helpful if you could turn the temperature down.

You have made some good points. The Sox should have pressed harder in the offseason for some of those starters. Breslow acknowledged as much.

But Chawson, as he always does, has also made some good points. To note just one of them, it’s silly to think that Breslow the pitcher whisperer wasn’t factoring in the potential contributions of Criswell, Fitts, Winck, et al when determining how far he wanted to go in pursuing those free agents last winter. And in any case, as was convincingly argued earlier, mid-rotation starting pitching probably had less to do with missing the playoffs this season than injury luck, hot and cold offense, and a bullpen implosion that was at least partially related to that injury luck.

To the broader point, Breslow literally said at the press conference that they’d done a good job of identifying potential breakout starting pitchers last offseason BUT they didn’t do what it took to land them. He is telling us he gets it and that he’s going to do what it takes to get the players he believes they need. Anyone who wants to express skepticism certainly has that right. But the team clearly has a plan, this was a very successful development year, and the Sox look poised to seriously compete next year. They’ll need a frontline starter and bullpen improvements to do so, and we’ll see if they make those acquisitions.

The extent to which people are going to defend a team that won 81 games this year, 78 last year, and 78 the year before that is remark

What were the Orioles records in the five years before they graduated all their prospects and started winning? How about the Astros before them? This is just such a particularly odd time to be making these same old arguments when the seeds of the Red Sox rebuild are now inarguably starting to bear fruit. The Sox now have one of the very best systems in baseball—including the number one prospect in the game. Like Marcelo Mayer, Kyle Teel, and Kristian Campbell, he was added during the rebuild. And they could all be in the majors within a year.

And there is now so much additional depth coming up in the system. Baseball America’s Geoff Pontes was on the Sox Prospects podcast recently and he called it the deepest system in the game—with the usual and important caveat that it’s light on starting pitching.

The Sox have potential impact pieces ready to join the big league club and they have valuable prospects lower down in the system that they can trade to acquire additional major league talent. A lot of people here don’t like the route the Sox took to get there, but they are ready to contend. This is a time to be feeling excited about the team.

 

[dynomite]

What were the Orioles records in the five years before they graduated all their prospects and started winning? How about the Astros before them? This is just such a particularly odd time to be making these same old arguments when the seeds of the Red Sox rebuild are now inarguably starting to bear fruit.

1) I’m really glad you brought up the Orioles, because to me that’s a critical question. The Orioles were comfortable slashing payroll to the bone, losing 100 games a year, and waiting until the kids arrived to contend. They’re a small market team with — it seems — no ability to sign big ticket free agents.

The Red Sox are not the Orioles. They can walk and chew gum. They can sign free agents while the prospects develop. That’s what they did in 2004-2018, and did with Trevor Story, Kenley Jansen, Giolito, and Yoshida. But they needed a few more.

2) And I’m sorry if these are old arguments, but they’re still true. Sure, the farm system is starting to bear fruit… but it needs to ripen into wins at the Major League level, right? (Or whatever the analogy is). The Orioles got very lucky that Gunnar Henderson and Adley Rutschman immediately became All Stars. The White Sox did a similar rebuild, and their system was absolutely exploding with talent a few years ago in Eloy Jimenez, Luis Robert, Giolito, and the prospects we gave them in Kopech and Moncada. Relying on your farm system only works if your prospects pan out.

 

[8slim]

What were the Orioles records in the five years before they graduated all their prospects and started winning? How about the Astros before them? This is just such a particularly odd time to be making these same old arguments when the seeds of the Red Sox rebuild are now inarguably starting to bear fruit. The Sox now have one of the very best systems in baseball—including the number one prospect in the game. Like Marcelo Mayer, Kyle Teel, and Kristian Campbell, he was added during the rebuild. And they could all be in the majors within a year.

And there is now so much additional depth coming up in the system. Baseball America’s Geoff Pontes was on the Sox Prospects podcast recently and he called it the deepest system in the game—with the usual and important caveat that it’s light on starting pitching.

The Sox have potential impact pieces ready to join the big league club and they have valuable prospects lower down in the system that they can trade to acquire additional major league talent. A lot of people here don’t like the route the Sox took to get there, but they are ready to contend. This is a time to be feeling excited about the team.

I genuinely don’t mean this to be rude, but who cares what the Orioles and Astros records were?

I assume you saw what I posted upthread. The Sox have just completed their worst 5 year stretch since the late 1960s. The franchise has literally never had such a bad stretch in the free agency era.

Somehow this franchise managed to win 10 division titles, made 12 ALCS and won 4 championships without having a 5 year span as bad as the one we’ve just gone through.

We know building and rebuilding a team doesn’t require five years of poor performance because we watched the Sox succeed without doing that for 50 years.

Ultimately the point is that we have endured this lousy stretch and I sure hope the front office takes all of the necessary steps to end that with a vengeance in 2025.

 

[3rd Degree]

To the broader point, Breslow literally said at the press conference that they’d done a good job of identifying potential breakout starting pitchers last offseason BUT they didn’t do what it took to land them.

This is such a ridiculous "the dog ate my homework" thought process. Is being outmatched by other front offices supposed to be a positive sign?

I see few reasons why the Red Sox can't be a financial bully in free agency while also maintaining a developmental pipeline like the Dodgers have done under Friedman. I was hoping Bloom would bring that savvy to the front office and I'm now hoping Breslow can fill in the gaps, but it's going to take a lot more competence and buy-in from ownership.

 

[RedOctober3829]

I genuinely don’t mean this to be rude, but who cares what the Orioles and Astros records were?

I assume you saw what I posted upthread. The Sox have just completed their worst 5 year stretch since the late 1960s. The franchise has literally never had such a bad stretch in the free agency era.

Somehow this franchise managed to win 10 division titles, made 12 ALCS and won 4 championships without having a 5 year span as bad as the one we’ve just gone through.

We know building and rebuilding a team doesn’t require five years of poor performance because we watched the Sox succeed without doing that for 50 years.

Ultimately the point is that we have endured this lousy stretch and I sure hope the front office takes all of the necessary steps to end that with a vengeance in 2025.

Thank you. The bar used to be higher for this fan base in terms of expectations for this team. We should expect them to be a contender every year and commit the resources necessary to do so. Ownership has told us that’s the opposite ever since the Betts trade. Until their actions change with their checkbook, I will continue to expect them to come up short when it comes to trying to land a big fish.

 

[Auger34]

Thank you. The bar used to be higher for this fan base in terms of expectations for this team. We should expect them to be a contender every year and commit the resources necessary to do so. Ownership has told us that’s the opposite ever since the Betts trade. Until their actions change with their checkbook, I will continue to expect them to come up short when it comes to trying to land a big fish.

Yeah, it’s kind of stunning. I don’t post much on this board but I do try and keep up with some of the threads.
The amount of excuses and rewriting of history is crazy. Craig Breslow himself said they needed multiple starters..:they got one. Now, somehow certain posters are saying it was all part of some master “fact finding” plan.
I just truly don’t understand how anyone could come to that conclusion. If Chris Cotillo wrote a piece with that exact same type of spin but negative instead of positive, there would be multiple pamphlets written about how awful he is and that he’s not fit to say word one about the Red Sox. There’s no consistency at all.
If it’s positive, it’s worthwhile. If its negative, as @BigSoxFan said, that person is just mad and angry with no logic

@8slim 5 year window post is very eye opening

 

[iddoc]

Have Campbell's throws improved? Here's SP:
Arm: Fringe-average arm. Passable on the left side of the infield, but best suited for second base.

That doesn't inspire confidence.

This is a legitimate concern, and I say this as someone who would like to see how Campbell would handle 3B.

A decade ago there was considerable chatter on this board about having Mookie fill the pre-Devers void at 3B, with many concerns expressed about his arm strength. I guess his throwing arm turned out alright.

 

[BigSoxFan]

Yeah, it’s kind of stunning. I don’t post much on this board but I do try and keep up with some of the threads.
The amount of excuses and rewriting of history is crazy. Craig Breslow himself said they needed multiple starters..:they got one. Now, somehow certain posters are saying it was all part of some master “fact finding” plan.
I just truly don’t understand how anyone could come to that conclusion. If Chris Cotillo wrote a piece with that exact same type of spin but negative instead of positive, there would be multiple pamphlets written about how awful he is and that he’s not fit to say word one about the Red Sox. There’s no consistency at all.
If it’s positive, it’s worthwhile. If its negative, as @BigSoxFan said, that person is just mad and angry with no logic

@8slim 5 year window post is very eye opening

And, to be clear, I don’t even care if someone is being overly optimistic (in my estimation, at least) or putting a positive spin on everything. That is great. I wish I could have that mentality for the Patriots, a team that is in MUCH worse shape than the Sox. But what I continue to categorically reject is this constant need by the same posters to portray opposing or critical viewpoints as “angry” or “mad”. It’s a stupid trope that adds nothing to the discussion and is, quite frankly, simply lazy.

Today, I just watched the Tigers and Royals win road playoff games against favored teams. We all saw what happened in 2021. I’m 100% with a mentality of just getting in and seeing what happens. I don’t need a 12 year streak of division titles or anything. If you do things right, those will eventually come. But the fact that this team is repeatedly failing to even make the playoffs despite their financial advantages is disappointing.

One thing I think we’ll all agree on is that there are a ton of reasons to be optimistic about with respect to the current roster and farm.

Devers
Duran resurgence
Casas
Rafaela development
Hamilton looking the part of a utility guy
Houck taking a leap
Bello being inconsistent but showing glimpses

And the farm. Mayer. Anthony. Teel. Campbell coming out of nowhere to top 25 prospect status. There is a ton to like here.

All I want is for the ownership group to meet the moment and deliver some top talent to pair with the guys we already have. Yes, they’ve spent some but they have the capability to spend more. And I don’t mean spending $150M more / year chasing 2-3 marginal wins or something.

There is a very real path here to be very good very quickly. Let’s hope they deliver. I don’t really care what Sam Kennedy says or does. He’s a mouthpiece. I care who Breslow ultimately signs up or trades for. And the past few years under this front office and Chaim have just been underwhelming to me not to mention the actual product on the field.

 

[RS2004foreever]

Kennedy is right about one thing - no one cares what they say.

There were reports that the Red Sox did not want to go beyond 2 years with FA (except Yamamoto). I want to see if that limitation continues this offseason.

 

[lexrageorge]

Breslow's comments need to be considered in the lens that he is not going to throw anyone under the bus. If he was to come out and say "Yeah, we tried to get starting pitching, failed to do so, so we went into the season knowing we had a subpar rotation", it would not play all that well with Houck or Bello, who were both good soldiers all season, and in the case of the former an actual All Star.

Yes, the outcome of this season is that we did get to see a decent sample size of innings from their existing rotation. That seems incidental rather than deliberate, especially when for the most part the rotation met the expectation of a lot of pundits and fans (mostly meh overall). There will indeed be bridge years from time to time with this team, especially as ownership is clearly not going to spend the money that the Yankees and Dodgers and other teams do. But it's not clear that Breslow truly wanted 2024 to be a bridge year, despite obvious payroll constraints. Still, the team would be in much worse shape if they signed Jordan Montgomery to the long term deal everyone wanted.

It will be disappointing if the team goes into spring training with only marginal upgrades and quotes from Breslow and Kennedy about "expecting continued growth from our players".

 

[Sandy Leon Trotsky]

This is such a ridiculous "the dog ate my homework" thought process. Is being outmatched by other front offices supposed to be a positive sign?

I see few reasons why the Red Sox can't be a financial bully in free agency while also maintaining a developmental pipeline like the Dodgers have done under Friedman. I was hoping Bloom would bring that savvy to the front office and I'm now hoping Breslow can fill in the gaps, but it's going to take a lot more competence and buy-in from ownership.

was this Breslow blaming the front office for not ponying up the funds to land those pitchers that he supposedly identified?

 

[jacklamabe65]

It would be really helpful if you could turn the temperature down.

You have made some good points. The Sox should have pressed harder in the offseason for some of those starters. Breslow acknowledged as much.

But Chawson, as he always does, has also made some good points. To note just one of them, it’s silly to think that Breslow the pitcher whisperer wasn’t factoring in the potential contributions of Criswell, Fitts, Winck, et al when determining how far he wanted to go in pursuing those free agents last winter. And in any case, as was convincingly argued earlier, mid-rotation starting pitching probably had less to do with missing the playoffs this season than injury luck, hot and cold offense, and a bullpen implosion that was at least partially related to that injury luck.

To the broader point, Breslow literally said at the press conference that they’d done a good job of identifying potential breakout starting pitchers last offseason BUT they didn’t do what it took to land them. He is telling us he gets it and that he’s going to do what it takes to get the players he believes they need. Anyone who wants to express skepticism certainly has that right. But the team clearly has a plan, this was a very successful development year, and the Sox look poised to seriously compete next year. They’ll need a frontline starter and bullpen improvements to do so, and we’ll see if they make those acquisitions.


What were the Orioles records in the five years before they graduated all their prospects and started winning? How about the Astros before them? This is just such a particularly odd time to be making these same old arguments when the seeds of the Red Sox rebuild are now inarguably starting to bear fruit. The Sox now have one of the very best systems in baseball—including the number one prospect in the game. Like Marcelo Mayer, Kyle Teel, and Kristian Campbell, he was added during the rebuild. And they could all be in the majors within a year.

And there is now so much additional depth coming up in the system. Baseball America’s Geoff Pontes was on the Sox Prospects podcast recently and he called it the deepest system in the game—with the usual and important caveat that it’s light on starting pitching.

The Sox have potential impact pieces ready to join the big league club and they have valuable prospects lower down in the system that they can trade to acquire additional major league talent. A lot of people here don’t like the route the Sox took to get there, but they are ready to contend. This is a time to be feeling excited about the team.

This.

 

[NickEsasky]

And, to be clear, I don’t even care if someone is being overly optimistic (in my estimation, at least) or putting a positive spin on everything. That is great. I wish I could have that mentality for the Patriots, a team that is in MUCH worse shape than the Sox. But what I continue to categorically reject is this constant need by the same posters to portray opposing or critical viewpoints as “angry” or “mad”. It’s a stupid trope that adds nothing to the discussion and is, quite frankly, simply lazy.

Today, I just watched the Tigers and Royals win road playoff games against favored teams. We all saw what happened in 2021. I’m 100% with a mentality of just getting in and seeing what happens. I don’t need a 12 year streak of division titles or anything. If you do things right, those will eventually come. But the fact that this team is repeatedly failing to even make the playoffs despite their financial advantages is disappointing.

One thing I think we’ll all agree on is that there are a ton of reasons to be optimistic about with respect to the current roster and farm.

Devers
Duran resurgence
Casas
Rafaela development
Hamilton looking the part of a utility guy
Houck taking a leap
Bello being inconsistent but showing glimpses

And the farm. Mayer. Anthony. Teel. Campbell coming out of nowhere to top 25 prospect status. There is a ton to like here.

All I want is for the ownership group to meet the moment and deliver some top talent to pair with the guys we already have. Yes, they’ve spent some but they have the capability to spend more. And I don’t mean spending $150M more / year chasing 2-3 marginal wins or something.

There is a very real path here to be very good very quickly. Let’s hope they deliver. I don’t really care what Sam Kennedy says or does. He’s a mouthpiece. I care who Breslow ultimately signs up or trades for. And the past few years under this front office and Chaim have just been underwhelming to me not to mention the actual product on the field.

Great post. I appreciate a lot of the optimism here as well. I often wish I was a lot less cynical, to be honest. But there is cynicism and then there is reality. And the fact is that the Red Sox have not been very good for the last 5 years. Also, a reality is that the ownership group has reduced spending during that same stretch. The latter doesn't necessarily have to be the cause of the former, but it certainly doesn't help. If posters here want to chalk everything up to bad luck and injuries have at it. But all teams have injuries. Find me a fully healthy baseball team and I'll show you a baseball team that hasn't played any baseball. But good teams overcome injuries. We're also on year 4 of blaming injuries for the Red Sox issues. At some point, they don't get a pass anymore.

I also think it's great that the Red Sox have some potentially great talent in the pipeline. It's nice to have homegrown players to root for. It's also helpful to keep costs down so in theory they can spend to fill out the roster. My fear is the amount we are counting on these prospects to be stars for the Red Sox to have championship aspirations. Lots of prospects fail. The window was shifted once to 2025. But what if Anthony falters next year or Mayer gets hurt again, or Teel's bat can't keep up with advanced pitching? Do we just reset the clock and wait for Bleis and Braden Montgomery in 2027? And even if they all come up and have a normal progression we still likely aren't contending without some outside help.

But what truly irks me here lately is that anyone who doesn't have a rosy view of the Red Sox is viewed as being entitled or not knowledgeable as a fan by those who do. It's garbage and does nothing to drive the conversation forward. It also puts people on the defensive and that's where bickering starts which isn't helpful for anyone, but especially the mods. But if that is the way the way of the board now I'll just go back to lurking on the main board and posting on the subforums.

 

[BringBackMo]

The Orioles were comfortable slashing payroll to the bone, losing 100 games a year, and waiting until the kids arrived to contend. They’re a small market team with — it seems — no ability to sign big ticket free agents.

The Red Sox are not the Orioles. They can walk and chew gum. They can sign free agents while the prospects develop. That’s what they did in 2004-2018, and did with Trevor Story, Kenley Jansen, Giolito, and Yoshida. But they needed a few more.

Your original complaint, the one that I responded to, was that the Sox have posted three consecutive years of poor results and that you have finally had enough after giving them the benefit of the doubt. My response was making the point that the Sox were rebuilding while posting those results, and that they now have one of the best and deepest systems in baseball. In other words, it was part of a strategy that appears to be working, for the most part, just as they’d hoped.

The above quote seems to boil down to two broad points: first that you don’t approve of the specific strategy the Red Sox employed during a rebuild that has resulted in one of the best farm systems in baseball, and second that from 2004 until 2018 the Red Sox successfully pursued a walk-and-chew-gum strategy that allowed them to compete for championships and build one of the best farm systems in baseball at the same time. The implication is that the Sox have abandoned that successful approach.

Let’s take the first one first. I happen to agree that the rebuild would have been faster and even more effective if the Sox had ripped off the bandaid and gone full tank for two to three seasons. You can find numerous posts from me advocating precisely that approach. Ownership‘s read on the situation was clearly that the fan base would never accept such an approach and so instead you got a hybrid rebuild in which the Sox fielded high variance rosters that could compete if everything went just right, as happened in 2021, but could also flame out if things—injuries, under performance—did not. All along, the priority was to avoid trading any good prospects, and to avoid signings that would cost draft capital. This hybrid approach hasn’t yielded much onfield success and it hasn’t resulted in any 100 loss seasons (and resulting number one picks). What is has done, though, however inefficient compared with the alternatives, is create one of the best and deepest farm systems in baseball. Complaining about the route they took to get there now—or anguishing over whether these top prospects will pan out in the majors—is just odd to me.

To your second point, Henry and company bought the Red Sox before the 2002 season. By 2006, Theo was championing to Seth Mnookin in Feeding the Monster a strategy in which the Red Sox would compete for eight out of every ten seasons, taking two seasons for rebuilding. The problem, he loudly proclaimed, was that ownership wouldn’t go for it. The fan base would never accept it, he was told. What we saw under Henry’s ownership up to the firing of DD were incredible highs and painful lows. Boom or bust cycles that highlighted the fact that the Red Sox were demonstrably not building a sustainable minor league system while winning championships. They were NOT walking and chewing gum at the same time. Yes, the Sox incredible 2011 draft laid the foundation for the run that resulted in the run culminating in the 2018 championship, but that draft was conducted during a time when it was much easier for big market teams to acquire draft picks and spend what they liked on them. Those options have been dramatically curtailed now. Ownership decided some time around the firing of DD that structural changes to the draft (and the IFA rules) we’re putting a new premium on the sustainable development of the farm system.

You‘re right that the approach of the past five years been different than the twenty or so before that. But that has been driven by changes to the game. You’re also right that we won’t be able to judge the success of any of this until the prospects start producing in the big leagues (although the results so far from Casas, Aubreu, and Crawford are cause for optimism about the organization’s player development system). But whether this all results in a competitive run or not, we can’t just throw out the Red Sox mediocre won-loss record of the past three seasons and pretend that it wasn’t part of an overall organizational strategy that, sitting here at the end of the 2024 season, seems to give us plenty of reasons to be hopeful.

I genuinely don’t mean this to be rude, but who cares what the Orioles and Astros records were?

I assume you saw what I posted upthread. The Sox have just completed their worst 5 year stretch since the late 1960s. The franchise has literally never had such a bad stretch in the free agency era.

We know building and rebuilding a team doesn’t require five years of poor performance because we watched the Sox succeed without doing that for 50 years.

I understand that you don’t care about the records of the Orioles and the Astros, which is to say evidence that might support the strategy being employed by the Red Sox. So setting that aside for a moment, can you think of anything different about what the Sox have been doing for the past few seasons that might explain a poorer won-loss record than they have posted over past stretches? Or is it your belief that the Sox have been doing everything they possibly can to win games but are just failing to do so at a historic rate for the franchise?

 

[simplicio]

Kennedy is right about one thing - no one cares what they say.

There were reports that the Red Sox did not want to go beyond 2 years with FA (except Yamamoto). I want to see if that limitation continues this offseason.

There were also reports they offered Montgomery 4 years.

 

[8slim]

I understand that you don’t care about the records of the Orioles and the Astros, which is to say evidence that might support the strategy being employed by the Red Sox. So setting that aside for a moment, can you think of anything different about what the Sox have been doing for the past few seasons that might explain a poorer won-loss record than they have posted over past stretches? Or is it your belief that the Sox have been doing everything they possibly can to win games but are just failing to do so at a historic rate for the franchise?

The condescending questions are such fun. Great work by you there.

Perhaps as part of this five year plan the Sox didn’t charge the highest ticket prices in the game. Maybe they should have been transparent with the fan base that they had no intention of really competing for division titles so we could have spent more time at the beach reading during the summer.

Whatever. That’s all in the past. The point I will continue to make is that now, right now, this offseason, is the time the Sox need to go all out to field a division winning team. They got their 5 year span to half-ass the MLB club while gouging fans and willfully misleading them.

This is the Yoda offseason. Do or do not, there is no try.

 

[chawson]

I assume you saw what I posted upthread. The Sox have just completed their worst 5 year stretch since the late 1960s. The franchise has literally never had such a bad stretch in the free agency era.

Somehow this franchise managed to win 10 division titles, made 12 ALCS and won 4 championships without having a 5 year span as bad as the one we’ve just gone through.

You write “the free agency era” here, but wouldn’t it be more appropriate to view this through the lens of the competitive balance era?

The relationship between team payroll and performance used to be a lot stronger. In the last 15 years or so especially, there have been a lot of competitive balance measures that have evened the playing field — not perfect measures, but which has genuinely made for a better sport. As @BringBackMo has also rightly pointed out, one of those has been a method of accumulating compensatory draft picks, which benefited big-market teams, which changed in the 2012 CBA.

I agree that it’s unfortunate for the Sox to have a 5-year stretch like this (though honestly, I couldn’t care less that they were bad in 2020), but there's more of a holistic set of reasons than you're making it out to be. The Rays and Orioles both accumulated a ton of draft capital during their tanking windows, and became good. The Blue Jays went all in, and now their competitive window has open and closed. The Yankees are the Yankees, and they've had some embarrassing years the last five seasons as well.

I also agree that this is the do or do not offseason. It's time to take a big swing, and if they don't, I'll dramatically change my tune.

 

[RedOctober3829]

You write “the free agency era” here, but wouldn’t it be more appropriate to view this through the lens of the competitive balance era?

The relationship between team payroll and performance used to be a lot stronger. In the last 15 years or so especially, there have been a lot of competitive balance measures that have evened the playing field — not perfect measures, but which has genuinely made for a better sport. As @BringBackMo has also rightly pointed out, one of those has been a method of accumulating compensatory draft picks, which benefited big-market teams, which changed in the 2012 CBA.

I agree that it’s unfortunate for the Sox to have a 5-year stretch like this (though honestly, I couldn’t care less that they were bad in 2020), but there's more of a holistic set of reasons than you're making it out to be. The Rays and Orioles both accumulated a ton of draft capital during their tanking windows, and became good. The Blue Jays went all in, and now their competitive window has open and closed. The Yankees are the Yankees, and they've had some embarrassing years the last five seasons as well.

I also agree that this is the do or do not offseason. It's time to take a big swing, and if they don't, I'll dramatically change my tune.

The Yankees have not had any embarrassing years in the last 5. Embarrasing would be finishing last in the division twice in that span. In the last 5 full seasons(not counting 2020) they have won the division 3 of those years and made the playoffs 4 of those 5 years. Last year was their only down year of the bunch going 82-80. Their win totals in those 5 full seasons are 94, 82, 99, 92, and 103. Now they continued to fall short in the playoffs, but they at least were there in 4 of those 5 years. They did what the Red Sox failed to do. They continued to be a consistent playoff team at the same time as they built a really good farm system.

 

[simplicio]

The Yankees system never bottomed out like Dombrowski let ours do. They've had Cashman running their FO since 1872 so they've had a consistency in their development strategy, where ours has been a sharp break after 2019 followed by iterative building in Bloom -> Breslow. So it's made sense for them to spend all the extra money they have been cause there's been a solid foundation to build on, and we're just getting to that point now.

 

[chawson]

The Yankees system never bottomed out like Dombrowski let ours do. They've had Cashman running their FO since 1872 so they've had a consistency in their development strategy, where ours has been a sharp break after 2019 followed by iterative building in Bloom -> Breslow. So it's made sense for them to spend all the extra money they have been cause there's been a solid foundation to build on, and we're just getting to that point now.

That's true. This is a YMMV thing, but I'd personally prefer for the Sox to bottom out once we're out of the race rather than hang on around .500 — a kind of dynamic tanking like we did in 2012 and 2014 (and I suppose 2020*). But that's hard to do responsibly, and now the reward isn't assuredly as great with the new lottery system.

 

[Montana Fan]

I prefer watching the Red Sox in the playoffs but to each their own.

As do I Nick, as do I. And that’s a good discussion to which you’re a regular and solid contributor. However there are spoiled whiners that just want to complain and make the threads unreadable. Waaah, the last 5 years the Sox have “suxxed”. Well, one of those years was the Covid year and another they made it to the ALCS. The posters are being disingenuous from the outset.

As someone who followed the Sox and NYG through years of true futility, I’m not going to completely decry the efforts that Bloom and now Breslow have made, nor ownership who are being asked to throw money at a problem that is deeper than some posters care to look. That problem being a lack of talent. Pedro, Manny and David aren’t walking through that door for money. The best bet is to build the farm and then go from there. And I do believe, we’re at the (go from there) point where management with ownerships support are going to steer the ship forward for a nice run. We weren’t there at the end of either of the last 2 season.

 

[mikeford]

The Yankees system never bottomed out like Dombrowski let ours do

They also never won anything like Dombrowski did in that same timespan, that seems worth mentioning. If it takes bottoming out to win a World Series, I think that's an okay tradeoff. The issue has been the speed, or lack thereof, of the rebuild after the bottom out. I don't know that anyone here EXPECTED the Red Sox to vault back into World Series contention post-Dombrowski prospect wasteland, but I also think it's not crazy to be like "a team with a market, payroll and pockets this large should not be finishing LAST a bunch of times".

 

[simplicio]

They also never won anything like Dombrowski did in that same timespan, that seems worth mentioning. If it takes bottoming out to win a World Series, I think that's an okay tradeoff. The issue has been the speed, or lack thereof, of the rebuild after the bottom out. I don't know that anyone here EXPECTED the Red Sox to vault back into World Series contention post-Dombrowski prospect wasteland, but I also think it's not crazy to be like "a team with a market, payroll and pockets this large should not be finishing LAST a bunch of times".

Oh for sure the 2018 ring is worth a TON, and that aspect of DD's tenure is a resounding success. But what happened to development under him is pretty tragic, cause it didn't have to be that way. It didn't become that wasteland because we had a bunch of great prospects he traded away to GFIN; on the whole he was quite savvy about who he sent out in trades. He even made some smart draft and IFA decisions. He just didn't do anything to establish or maintain an actual development pipeline that could produce a system of competitive depth. Maybe it was simply a blind spot for him? Maybe he didn't think it was important? I have no idea but I wish he'd at least delegated it to someone who could do the work. Would have saved us all a lot of grief over the last few years.

 

[NickEsasky]

They also never won anything like Dombrowski did in that same timespan, that seems worth mentioning. If it takes bottoming out to win a World Series, I think that's an okay tradeoff. The issue has been the speed, or lack thereof, of the rebuild after the bottom out. I don't know that anyone here EXPECTED the Red Sox to vault back into World Series contention post-Dombrowski prospect wasteland, but I also think it's not crazy to be like "a team with a market, payroll and pockets this large should not be finishing LAST a bunch of times".

Can we stop with the revisionist history of Dombrowski's "prospect wasteland" and "leaving the cupboard bare?" Multiple valuable contributors on the current major league roster were drafted and in part developed by DD. I'll accept arguments that the volume wasn't as high as we'd like, but the flack Dombrowski gets around here when he put together the best Red Sox team of our lifetimes and also gave us guys contributing at the major league level now is insane.