So will this move herald a shift in FA philosophy? Will we tender longer contracts now for pitchers?
Red Sox announce Dave Dombrowski is their new president of baseball operations.
- Thread starter jimbobim
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This is my thinking as well, and was even before this announcement. Why would a GM teetering on the edge hire a guy to second guess what is going on in baseball ops?tbb345 said:
There's a good amount of spin happening with the reshuffling of the FO.
It's not so much the ring as the top-rated farm system. There are only so many of these jobs, so I'm not saying he'll necessarily be a GM somewhere else in six months, but he'll get another shot and won't have to wait nearly as long as Dan Duquette to get it.DLew On Roids said:
Is this a lateral move for Dombrowski? Hopefully we don't get caught up in some lengthy compensation drama.
Absolutely agree.Sox and Rocks said:
And remember, DD wasn't just trying to put Detroit over the top. He's also the guy who traded Granderson for Scherzer, and Miller and Maybin for Cabrera.
Here's hoping he and Dipoto take the rest of the season to learn how to work together.
I'm happy that they're making a move, but really don't want Wren taking over for Ben. Holding out hopes, however slim, for Beane.
I doubt Farrell is back as others have stated, so let the managerial dot-connecting commence. The obvious one is Leyland.
Snoop Soxy Dogg said:
Exactly. And it's not just Dombrowski's track record that has me concerned. Either: 1) The choice was always between Cherington as top guy or Cherington gone and they chose the latter, or 2) Cherington was open to a guy above him who shared a similar philosophy. This doesn't seem like a change in tactics but rather a change in strategic approach, and while you can certainly argue with Cherington's tactical maneuvers, I liked the strategic approach.
Obviously, we'll have to wait and see, but this is a pretty strong signal to me that the ownership philosophy has taken a turn for the, um, less analytical. And the first manifestation of that, given Dombrowski's record, may well be the razing of our development machine and its fruits.
Sampo Gida said:
Really glad this wasn't true after 2012.
It will be interesting to see what Dombrowski does w Porcello, since he traded him last year. And if there is history w Hanley in FL
He's never been afraid to go after high end talent, particularly starting pitching
He's never been afraid to go after high end talent, particularly starting pitching
For everyone worried about Dombrowski emptying the farm system: If anything, this organization seems ripe for a harvest (so to speak). The Red Sox are loaded with high-upside, low-minors prospects with a barren upper part of the system and nothing in the way of impact pitching any time soon. The likes of Devers, Guerra and Margot are full of potential, but this winter would seem like a golden opportunity to move them to acquire what the major league team needs most: A true ace and bullpen help.
I have to imagine that Betts, Bogaerts, Swihart and Moncada remain untouchable. But this seems as good a time as any to cash in some of those potential lottery tickets, and if Dombrowski's track record proves anything, it's that he's very adept at turning prospects into productive major leaguers.
I have to imagine that Betts, Bogaerts, Swihart and Moncada remain untouchable. But this seems as good a time as any to cash in some of those potential lottery tickets, and if Dombrowski's track record proves anything, it's that he's very adept at turning prospects into productive major leaguers.
So Ben, if mistakes are made during your tenure if I hire you today, will you blame me for those?patinorange said:
I don't think he's a GM in 2016.
I like this change. Even if Dombrowki's sole direction is to throw money at big ticket FA's that beats Cherington's attempt to outsmart the league by spending a big ticket payroll on second tier players. If you gamble the way Cherington did, you simply need to hit more often than he did.
adam42381 said:
Dude: not happening.
The position Beane could conceivably have been recruited to was President of Baseball Ops... which they just filled.
"... many in baseball don’t see this as a great fit, given the Red Sox place atop the mountain of believers in sabermetrics — Bill James is even on the payroll — and Dombrowski’s more traditional views in analyzing a player’s value."
http://detne.ws/1NaYtOA
http://detne.ws/1NaYtOA
Savin Hillbilly said:
According to http://www.dumb.com/celebritytwin/ his 3 celebrity look-a-likes are Fred Savage, Al Sharpton (?), and Alek Wek (??) I don't think its very accurate.
I think we should give him a free pass when it comes to his bullpens. Aside from top RP they are extremely volatile. Just look at how both Breslow and Machi have been elite and awful in the last 3 or 4 years. Bullpens are a crapshoot
Although the results are there for all to see, it just seems strange that a career executive would have a blind spot in a narrow area like building a bullpen. It's like saying your mechanic can swap out a transmission, but can't change out brake pads to save himself.
Allard Baird killed Cherington...
I'm joking, but barely. For the life of me, I'll never understand the reliance on Allard Baird; but may be he was a great guy. But other than the terrible major league evaluations, BC was mostly fine.
He did a good job here, but as somebody said, it's pretty tough to survive the type of decisions made over the past 18 months.
Thanks for 2013 Ben. Lucky or not, 2013 was magic.
I'm joking, but barely. For the life of me, I'll never understand the reliance on Allard Baird; but may be he was a great guy. But other than the terrible major league evaluations, BC was mostly fine.
He did a good job here, but as somebody said, it's pretty tough to survive the type of decisions made over the past 18 months.
Thanks for 2013 Ben. Lucky or not, 2013 was magic.
Agree. Ben was a bit of a hoarder. I don't necessarily want a 180 shift to move the guys you mentioned necessarily, but many of the arms on Ben's watch became overripe before they could be moved for useful major league ready pieces (that big clump of guys at the end of last year, for example). I think he's been too conservative in that regard.TheYellowDart5 said:
Marbleheader said:
Interesting. This is a concern. It's kind of interesting that Henry would go in this direction, an admitted admirer of Bill James. Maybe Cherington and the sabermetric group blew so many decisions that Henry is having second thoughts? Or maybe he wants greater balance? I would like to see the Red Sox hire Dipoto to keep that sabermetric edge.
Sampo Gida said:
I agree with this post in general.
On one hand, I think ownership is justified in moving on from Ben and Larry. Like you say, the 3/4 last place finishes are bad but the worst part is the bind that the $350M in contracts handed out this past offseason has put the team in. Not to mention the failure to cash in on Lester/Lackey as trade chips.
On the other hand, Dombrowski seems like a dangerous choice. The Red Sox management in recent years have been at their worst when being reactionary and looking for quick fixes. Chicken and beer? Sign a bellicose tough guy manager. Bad chemistry? Sign a lot of "good guys". Miss out on the Cubans? Sign all the Cubans. Bad offense? Sign the best bats and throw caution to the wind.
At the end of the day, poor MLB player evaluation got Ben fired. But that is only part of the puzzle and Dombrowski's track record in player development & scouting, which is arguably more important, isn't great. Is this the next reaction? Respond to an admittedly disastrous run on FA by getting a GM who has added good MLB talent but has weaknesses elsewhere?
grimshaw said:
Not only of minor league players, but major league players too. He created a total clusterfuck in the OF this year. He didn't act with conviction. And then he kept saying that the starting pitching staff was set, and they were happy with the starting staff, even though he put together a middling starting staff. Give me a break.
staz said:
Also seems, going with the metaphor, that the mechanic could just find some kid to do the brake pads for him and it's all good. Who knows if that will happen here... but it's also not like Cherington has an amazing track record with RP acquisitions.
maufman said:
There are still a lot of owners and senior baseball people who want veteran leadership and old school scouting expertise and all that. The teams that would be in the market for Cherington as GM already have young GMs like him who haven't completely shit themselves on the FA market. Ben will end up in player development for someone or as an AGM and get another shot somewhere down the line, but it could be a while.
FanSinceBoggs said:
I just can't see Henry having second thoughts about sabermetrics. He was one of the early believers. He's seen it work.
Henry probably just sees what a lot of us see, a fundamentally solid approach to baseball ops with terrible execution stemming from a weak pro personnel department. DD is a great personnel man and has a history with Henry.
We should be so lucky to repeat DD's higher-profile prospect trades. As good as the system looks now, not everyone will be a stud, and I'm having a hard time seeing many trades where DD moved young guys who made him look bad on their new teams.
TheYellowDart5 said:
Devers and Margot are consensus top 25 prospects in all of baseball. They aren't lotto tickets. I'll be disappointed if Moncada, Devers or Espinoza get traded. Margot seems redundant given how close he is to the majors and how many other CF options the club has right now, both ahead of him and behind. He's probably the best prospect they should move. Whether Dombrowski pushes to move anyone better than that is obviously up for debate, but I'll be every upset if those three get touched.
patinorange said:
"Blame the owner" is probably not a great strategy, when you are interviewing with other team owners for a new job, so Ben's going to have to come up with something better than that to land his next gig.
I like this move, it needed doing, we need a new set of eyes to evaluate the whole plan current/future assets from top to bottom, since the last two years have been a fiasco....
I would in a heartbeat. I think Hanley and Pablo are both lazy players who are bad for team chemistry and want them gone no matter what.
moondog80 said:
just when I was feeling good about this move.....
I prefer Pablo and Ramirez's contracts, the Red Sox can buy their way out of Hanley's contract much easier than the two Tigers' contracts. I'm assuming Sandoval will be a better player next year.
Anyone taking over this team will look like a genius when the fruit ripens. The key thing to watch is how aggressive they are to lock in a winner. Easy to see trading future for now to satiate the masses.
I was never terribly impressed with DD in Detroit. Put together good teams but pretty top heavy, overly reliant on throwing around the money and lacked at the fringes at times. Sacrificing long term stability and fexibilitu and coherency with big ticket contracts can work but not over the long haul.
We will see. I think that BC missed his fair share but I felt he was hitting it in the long term areas.
I was never terribly impressed with DD in Detroit. Put together good teams but pretty top heavy, overly reliant on throwing around the money and lacked at the fringes at times. Sacrificing long term stability and fexibilitu and coherency with big ticket contracts can work but not over the long haul.
We will see. I think that BC missed his fair share but I felt he was hitting it in the long term areas.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/transactions/_/name/det/detroit-tigers
That list of transactions conveniently covers Dombrowski's time in Detroit.
That list of transactions conveniently covers Dombrowski's time in Detroit.
First major overhaul since Theo and The Trio came to town, 13 years. Ben was an extension of Theo's front office (although hired previously).
jsinger121 said:
There is no evidence for this. Sandoval, in particular, seems like a good team guy, a leader.
If you look at the Tiger's bullpens since 2011, its really not the nightmare we make it out to be. Most years they were 1 guy away from being decent. Soria, Alberquerque, Benoit were a solid top 3. All they lacked was a shutdown closer.
Take away Miller and Koji and the Sox are in pretty rough shape, as evidenced by 2015. I think the board is over-maligning the bullpen issue due to playoff duds in postseasons.
Detroit was pretty strapped for RP help due to over-allocation of resources to marquee FA and a barren farm system. The Sox have plenty of pieces next year and money to spent to hopefully rectify the issue, and probably a more patient owner as well.
Take away Miller and Koji and the Sox are in pretty rough shape, as evidenced by 2015. I think the board is over-maligning the bullpen issue due to playoff duds in postseasons.
Detroit was pretty strapped for RP help due to over-allocation of resources to marquee FA and a barren farm system. The Sox have plenty of pieces next year and money to spent to hopefully rectify the issue, and probably a more patient owner as well.
The difference is, what did the core of the Red Sox look like after 2012? And even with Gonzalez, Beckett, and Crawford gone, the core was damn good.johnnywayback said:
Now with the Sox, and when Dombrowski first took over the Tigers, not so much.
Remember that Dombrowski was the guy who sold off a star in Granderson in order to acquire Scherzer before he was great. And sold off two young "studs" to get Cabrera to be his team's cornerstone.
FWIW, I think the only players who really may qualify as "untouchable" at this moment are Ortiz, Bogaerts, EdRo, Moncada, Kopech, and Espinoza. The pitching from AA-MLB is so bad that to build a pennant-winning staff, everyone else needs to be on the table.
And based on Dombrowski's whole corpus of work, not just the last few years trying to get Detroit a title on the core strength of Cabrera, Verlander, and Scherzer that it's just as likely vets get moved for top prospects as the other way around.