Red Claws Game Thread (2019-20)

Imbricus

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Was hoping to see more Tacko in the second quarter. Oh well. Waters seemed sharper in his execution in the summer league. He looks a little sloppy out there. Then again, I suppose it's hard to get too pumped up for G League games.
 

Big John

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Have the G-league Knicks had more than one or two assisted baskets in this game? Bunch of total chuckers.
Let me add that in addition to Waters, Maten has NBA skills, and he's a tough kid. So does Bryce Brown, but Brown never saw a shot he didn't like.
 

RoDaddy

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The 5-0 Red Claws have some leftover C's summer league vibe going for them - I mean the summer league C's that dominated for a while. And of course, some of the players are the same including Tacko and Waters
 

lovegtm

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Watching Waters jack 3s off the dribble while also being able to actually do other offensive things and play defense some, I wonder whether he’s closer to being what Edwards is supposed to be than Edwards is.

(Usual caveats about early in their careers and G-League).
 

DannyDarwinism

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Watching Waters jack 3s off the dribble while also being able to actually do other offensive things and play defense some, I wonder whether he’s closer to being what Edwards is supposed to be than Edwards is.

(Usual caveats about early in their careers and G-League).
Judging mainly from what I saw of him at LSU, I don’t think so, really. First, to your caveat, I think there’s a good chance Carden would’ve lighting the G league up. But I think Tre has more in common with a guy some people mistakenly give as a Edwards comp - Fred VanVleet. Tre has a great feel for running an offense, Carsen’s a pure 2 in FVV’s body. Tre’s a point guard. He can shoot off the bounce, but he doesn’t have the leg strength to approach Carsen’s range or stamina there, and Carsen’s a better movement shooter, with the strength to set screens. The size, speed and skill level of the NBA is a crazy adjustment, even for guys who dominated high level NCAA ball like Carsen, Grant and Tre did. The G league can’t replicate that.

That said, with Kemba out, I’d love to see Waters get some minutes running point. His size is a liability, but the guy was SEC DPOY for a reason- he has some killer instincts.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Judging mainly from what I saw of him at LSU, I don’t think so, really. First, to your caveat, I think there’s a good chance Carden would’ve lighting the G league up. But I think Tre has more in common with a guy some people mistakenly give as a Edwards comp - Fred VanVleet. Tre has a great feel for running an offense, Carsen’s a pure 2 in FVV’s body. Tre’s a point guard. He can shoot off the bounce, but he doesn’t have the leg strength to approach Carsen’s range or stamina there, and Carsen’s a better movement shooter, with the strength to set screens. The size, speed and skill level of the NBA is a crazy adjustment, even for guys who dominated high level NCAA ball like Carsen, Grant and Tre did. The G league can’t replicate that.

That said, with Kemba out, I’d love to see Waters get some minutes running point. His size is a liability, but the guy was SEC DPOY for a reason- he has some killer instincts.
The C's will be at home the next 2 games so I'd be surprised if we didn't see any of Waters.
 

NomarsFool

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You'd think the G-league could be more competitive than NCAA, right? Unless you are Duke, the vast majority of teams in the NCAA have at most one player that has a chance at an NBA career. The G-league, I assume, is only players that have some chance at an NBA career. Now, the G-league doesn't have any of those first round talents - but you'd think the average player in the G-league would be better than in the NCAA. But, maybe it's the lack of those elite talents which makes all the difference.
 

Cesar Crespo

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You'd think the G-league could be more competitive than NCAA, right? Unless you are Duke, the vast majority of teams in the NCAA have at most one player that has a chance at an NBA career. The G-league, I assume, is only players that have some chance at an NBA career. Now, the G-league doesn't have any of those first round talents - but you'd think the average player in the G-league would be better than in the NCAA. But, maybe it's the lack of those elite talents which makes all the difference.
Define competitive? As of 2018, 20% of G League players make it to the NBA.

A lot of the players who dominate the G League also dominated NCAA. Waters wasn't a bum in college.
 

DannyDarwinism

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Right, and the goals and structure of an NCAA team are very different from a G league team, plus the game itself is quite different- there’ll be styles that play better in one or the other. Fortunately, Tre’s shown well in both. My main point is that even short NBA minutes >> G league burn for developmental purposes, but it’s a tough balancing act for a team like the Cs, for sure.
 

lovegtm

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Judging mainly from what I saw of him at LSU, I don’t think so, really. First, to your caveat, I think there’s a good chance Carden would’ve lighting the G league up. But I think Tre has more in common with a guy some people mistakenly give as a Edwards comp - Fred VanVleet. Tre has a great feel for running an offense, Carsen’s a pure 2 in FVV’s body. Tre’s a point guard. He can shoot off the bounce, but he doesn’t have the leg strength to approach Carsen’s range or stamina there, and Carsen’s a better movement shooter, with the strength to set screens. The size, speed and skill level of the NBA is a crazy adjustment, even for guys who dominated high level NCAA ball like Carsen, Grant and Tre did. The G league can’t replicate that.

That said, with Kemba out, I’d love to see Waters get some minutes running point. His size is a liability, but the guy was SEC DPOY for a reason- he has some killer instincts.
The VanVleet comp is def a better one for Waters than Edwards, agree.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Also players with NBA contracts/2 way deals should be the best players in the G league. If they are dominating, it doesn't tell you much. If they aren't, it tells you a lot.
 

benhogan

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Judging mainly from what I saw of him at LSU, I don’t think so, really. First, to your caveat, I think there’s a good chance Carden would’ve lighting the G league up. But I think Tre has more in common with a guy some people mistakenly give as a Edwards comp - Fred VanVleet. Tre has a great feel for running an offense, Carsen’s a pure 2 in FVV’s body. Tre’s a point guard. He can shoot off the bounce, but he doesn’t have the leg strength to approach Carsen’s range or stamina there, and Carsen’s a better movement shooter, with the strength to set screens. The size, speed and skill level of the NBA is a crazy adjustment, even for guys who dominated high level NCAA ball like Carsen, Grant and Tre did. The G league can’t replicate that.

That said, with Kemba out, I’d love to see Waters get some minutes running point. His size is a liability, but the guy was SEC DPOY for a reason- he has some killer instincts.
The VanVleet comp is aligned with Carsen's size, age, 3pt%, college success, low/no draft status, and development in the modern NBA. Is he a perfect comp, absolutely not.
I agree FVV is more of a PG/distributor like Waters. BUT comparing Carsen to players that played 20-30yrs ago when the game was completely different, and projecting CE's career based on their usage isn't particularly helpful IMO

If CE hits ~40% of his 3s, from his distance, off the dribble w/little to no TOV that becomes an extremely valuable offensive player. Brad recognizes that, and that's why CE is getting rope.

If the C's stick CE in Maine* he'll regularly post 30pt games since he'll be able to get into a shooting groove from the tip. UNFORTUNATELY, it will not give CE the game experience he will see in the NBA. The trick Brad is trying to pull is getting CE going from the bench, cold at the end of 1st/3rd Quarters. If Carsen can get going (like he has on a couple of occasions) he'll have a plus defender chasing him around and make the opponent rotate out to 30'. This will open up a ton of opportunities for his teammates. The NBA minutes for Carsen now are worth the short term costs.


*Maine could help with CE's confidence of seeing the ball go through the net, so there may be some benefit there. But I'd still rather see him play 10-15mpg in the NBA
 

Big John

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Shane Larkin is my comp for Waters, although Waters is a better distributor. Vinnie Johnson is my comp for Carsten Edwards. The Microwave didn't come into his own until his 6th year in the league, so hopefully it won't take Edwards that long to become an impact scorer off the bench.
 

benhogan

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Shane Larkin is my comp for Waters, although Waters is a better distributor. Vinnie Johnson is my comp for Carsten Edwards. The Microwave didn't come into his own until his 6th year in the league, so hopefully it won't take Edwards that long to become an impact scorer off the bench.
I guess if you want to go back 40years to find a comp. Vinnie did shoot 25% from 3 for his career. The good news is Vinnie only attempted .3 3PA/game.

Vinnie did come off the bench, was short/stocky and they both have cool nicknames, so those work:drunk:
 

scottyno

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Somehow Tacko had 16 and 18 including 14 OFFENSIVE REBOUNDS and they lost by 23 tonight. Seems like that should be impossible.
 

NomarsFool

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Stats question, when someone taps at a ball on the offensive glass and it doesn't go in, does that count as an offensive rebound and a shot attempt?
 

NomarsFool

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Okay, that's how I could see Tacko getting 14 offensive rebounds in a losing effort. Multiple taps at the ball off the glass, leading to only 2 points.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Okay, that's how I could see Tacko getting 14 offensive rebounds in a losing effort. Multiple taps at the ball off the glass, leading to only 2 points.
Tacko went 8/13 so that doesn't explain it.

Maine: 25 Turnovers, 6 steals.
Memphis: 7 Turnovers, 18 steals.

Memphis also has Josh Jackson. Yes, that Josh Jackson. He went 11/19 for 23 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assists, 5 steals, 1 block.
 

lexrageorge

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Okay, that's how I could see Tacko getting 14 offensive rebounds in a losing effort. Multiple taps at the ball off the glass, leading to only 2 points.
Fall was 8-13 from the field. The plays following his 14 offensive rebounds break down as follows:

made shot: 7
missed shot: 3 (1 block!)
fouled: 2 (1 shooting)
passed: 2
team timeout: 1

Two of the missed shots and 3 of the rebounds were part of a rebound-miss-rebound-miss-rebound-make sequence.
 

Jimbodandy

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Tacko went 8/13 so that doesn't explain it.

Maine: 25 Turnovers, 6 steals.
Memphis: 7 Turnovers, 18 steals.

Memphis also has Josh Jackson. Yes, that Josh Jackson. He went 11/19 for 23 points, 5 rebounds, 1 assists, 5 steals, 1 block.
Seeing Phoenix #4 overall picks from 2016 and 2017 both playing in the G league makes me feel pretty good about Danny's high picks of Smart, Brown, and Tatum.
 

Imbricus

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Memphis also has Josh Jackson. Yes, that Josh Jackson.
Wow. I had been wondering what happened to him. He's rehabbing or is he that bad now? Man, we're lucky he blew off Danny for that workout out in California, pre-draft.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Wow. I had been wondering what happened to him. He's rehabbing or is he that bad now? Man, we're lucky he blew off Danny for that workout out in California, pre-draft.
Phoenix dumped him in a cutting salary type of transaction and he could not make the 5-11 Memphis Grizzlies rotation.
 

oumbi

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It is late in the fourth quarter and Waters has 33 points. I guess he wants to tell the Celtics something about sending him back down to Maine.

UPDATE: Waters finishes with 33 points, 1 rebound, 7 assists, 2 steals, and 7 turnovers.

Terrific Tacko did not play tonight.

Oh, Maine slaughters Greensboro 155 to 128.
 
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RoDaddy

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And Waters 6-11 on 3 pointers. Could he supplant Edwards in Boston as a not-as-good but good enough 3 point shooter, plus defense and playmaking which Edwards doesn't bring?
 

DJnVa

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Do we need to adjust Waters numbers down a bit because there's apparently zero defense being played in the G League?
 

Jed Zeppelin

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And Waters 6-11 on 3 pointers. Could he supplant Edwards in Boston as a not-as-good but good enough 3 point shooter, plus defense and playmaking which Edwards doesn't bring?
Need to see more of Edwards playing off ball when Hayward is back, I think. So far he seems horribly miscast playing as a lead guard rather than running off screens and capitalizing on catch and shoot situations. He isn’t finding the space he needs as the ballhandler.
 

lovegtm

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I understand the motivation for keeping Waters clock running another year when you already have Kemba, Smart, and Wannamaker, but I don't know what Waters really has left to learn in the G-League.

I guess they could tell him to jack tons of 3s and only guard 6-5+ guys?
 

benhogan

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I understand the motivation for keeping Waters clock running another year when you already have Kemba, Smart, and Wannamaker, but I don't know what Waters really has left to learn in the G-League.

I guess they could tell him to jack tons of 3s and only guard 6-5+ guys?
yea, shooting 3s in-game is good for Tre. Keep his confidence high, putting up 30pts will do that.

There could be a point where you get Carsen and Grant down there to launch some 3s to try and get some in-game shooting rhythm.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I understand the motivation for keeping Waters clock running another year when you already have Kemba, Smart, and Wannamaker, but I don't know what Waters really has left to learn in the G-League.

I guess they could tell him to jack tons of 3s and only guard 6-5+ guys?
Not sure what you mean by "clock running" but no matter which contract Waters had, he would be playing in G-L as he's better off playing than soaking up DNPs.

It's interesting but the 2-way contract probably hurts Waters; I assume that if this were three years ago, he'd probably get a 10-day tryout with one or more teams and might actually make someone's roster but I'm glad the Cs have him at least for now.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Yeah, but with the pace that game was running at, it's more like just 4 at a normal pace.
Maine was playing at a slower pace than they normally play at. It was the shooting. Maine shot 57.5% from the field, 50/87. From 3, 22/49, 44.9%. 18/23 from the line.

in 6 games this year, they are actually averaging 93.1 FGA, 45.3 3PA.

I mean, it might be the pace but it wasn't an issue in the other games. They play at that pace all the time.
 

lovegtm

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Not sure what you mean by "clock running" but no matter which contract Waters had, he would be playing in G-L as he's better off playing than soaking up DNPs.

It's interesting but the 2-way contract probably hurts Waters; I assume that if this were three years ago, he'd probably get a 10-day tryout with one or more teams and might actually make someone's roster but I'm glad the Cs have him at least for now.
I just mean that this year essentially doesn’t count for NBA service time, and they can give him a cheap 4-year after, which is a move at the margins that definitely helps this team.

I think he showed enough preseason that the Celtics would have done what it took to keep him in terms of roster spots.
 

TripleOT

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The Celtics should be looking at Waters as a future long term PG in the JJ Barea mold, although Waters is way better at running an offense, and is a better defender. I think he can be better than Larkin because of the team running and defensive chops.

I have watched him three times live, two pre-season games, and against the Kings. I spent some time watching him closely during these games. The guy really knows how to play basketball, something I cant say about many of the young players I watch. Besides having good command on how to run an offense, Waters has a great feel for positioning on defense. The big question I have is if he's just too tiny to be a rotation player on a championship team.
 

RoDaddy

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I've seen him play a good amount and am very impressed with his game. That said, his turnovers and sloppy ballhandling has been an issue since day one. This alone is reason to keep him in Maine
 

lovegtm

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I've seen him play a good amount and am very impressed with his game. That said, his turnovers and sloppy ballhandling has been an issue since day one. This alone is reason to keep him in Maine
I'm fine with him in Maine for the moment, but most PGs end up learning by getting NBA minutes. He can dominate so easily in Maine that it's probably hard to get him to be a perfectionist about turnovers there.
 

RetractableRoof

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The Celtics should be looking at Waters as a future long term PG in the JJ Barea mold, although Waters is way better at running an offense, and is a better defender. I think he can be better than Larkin because of the team running and defensive chops.

I have watched him three times live, two pre-season games, and against the Kings. I spent some time watching him closely during these games. The guy really knows how to play basketball, something I cant say about many of the young players I watch. Besides having good command on how to run an offense, Waters has a great feel for positioning on defense. The big question I have is if he's just too tiny to be a rotation player on a championship team.
2nd team point guard on a contending team doesn't seem a stretch if these skills are real. He already seems more in-game confident around his shooting than Edward's. And to me that is a big deal.
 

lovegtm

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2nd team point guard on a contending team doesn't seem a stretch if these skills are real. He already seems more in-game confident around his shooting than Edward's. And to me that is a big deal.
It’s fun having a team promising enough that these little things at the margins matter. Bulls fans don’t have the luxury of getting excited about the 51st pick turning into a rotation guard quickly, but it’s legitimately important for the Celtics.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I just mean that this year essentially doesn’t count for NBA service time, and they can give him a cheap 4-year after, which is a move at the margins that definitely helps this team.

I think he showed enough preseason that the Celtics would have done what it took to keep him in terms of roster spots.
OK, thanks for explaining.

He's a RFA after this year if I remember correctly. Not sure he's going to sign a team-friendly 4 year deal as I assume he'll try to find some team who will give him minutes.