RD5 #13/#159: K Justin Rohrwasser, Marshall

SMU_Sox

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It doesn't surprise me why this thread has the most posts. I feel the outrage too. I mean who would have thought Bailey would lose KO duties?
 

Shelterdog

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It doesn't surprise me why this thread has the most posts. I feel the outrage too. I mean who would have thought Bailey would lose KO duties?
Are we sure about that? I didn't see enough videos to know if he has the leg to consistently get touchbacks at the NFL level.
 

SMU_Sox

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Are we sure about that? I didn't see enough videos to know if he has the leg to consistently get touchbacks at the NFL level.
I was just making light of the controversy. One position I have no idea how to scout is kicker and punter. I mean I know things like distance and hang time are important but I don't know enough about mechanics of it athough @Brand Name has been very helpful there. I think it was interesting that they went with Ross given that he was not mentioned or listed by more of the highly regarded publications but specialists are a different breed and people on the outside have less of an idea on these things than other positions and even less-so this year given COVID. I also wonder who they bring in veteran kicker wise to compete with him. I would imagine they have a kicker battle this year in camp.
 

mauf

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Are we sure about that? I didn't see enough videos to know if he has the leg to consistently get touchbacks at the NFL level.
33 touchbacks on 62 kickoffs. Don’t really have a sense of whether that’s good.

 

RetractableRoof

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I was just making light of the controversy. One position I have no idea how to scout is kicker and punter. I mean I know things like distance and hang time are important but I don't know enough about mechanics of it athough @Brand Name has been very helpful there. I think it was interesting that they went with Ross given that he was not mentioned or listed by more of the highly regarded publications but specialists are a different breed and people on the outside have less of an idea on these things than other positions and even less-so this year given COVID. I also wonder who they bring in veteran kicker wise to compete with him. I would imagine they have a kicker battle this year in camp.
Why would you expect a kicker battle? The Pats took him where they did (against most expectations apparently), so they believed he had something that the others did not, or even the parade of kickers from last year. Personally, I was intrigued by the Youtube trick shot artist from last year. When it comes to special teams, doesn't BB spend more when he views them to be solid for a long period of time? The long snapper Joe Cardona wasn't expected to be drafted (I don't think), but people were saying he was the best pure long snapper in years. BB drafted him, essentially paying a premium for the skill/consistency. I'm NOT saying this kicker is in the same category of "best in a while" or anything, but doesn't this sound like BBs pattern of paying a premium for someone he really likes on STs? If that pattern is accurate, why bring in competition for him immediately? Maybe later in camp if he spits the bit or something, but I don't see the point of it out of the gate.

Do you see something in BB's habits or patterns that indicates differently? Edit: other than the fact that BB would probably bring someone to compete with his dog if he thought it would improve the team.
 

SMU_Sox

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Why would you expect a kicker battle? The Pats took him where they did (against most expectations apparently), so they believed he had something that the others did not, or even the parade of kickers from last year. Personally, I was intrigued by the Youtube trick shot artist from last year. When it comes to special teams, doesn't BB spend more when he views them to be solid for a long period of time? The long snapper Joe Cardona wasn't expected to be drafted (I don't think), but people were saying he was the best pure long snapper in years. BB drafted him, essentially paying a premium for the skill/consistency. I'm NOT saying this kicker is in the same category of "best in a while" or anything, but doesn't this sound like BBs pattern of paying a premium for someone he really likes on STs? If that pattern is accurate, why bring in competition for him immediately? Maybe later in camp if he spits the bit or something, but I don't see the point of it out of the gate.

Do you see something in BB's habits or patterns that indicates differently? Edit: other than the fact that BB would probably bring someone to compete with his dog if he thought it would improve the team.
Ghost battled Martin Gramatica back in 2006 and he was a 4th round pick. Last year Bailey had to win it. Before that BB took that left footed punter as a UDFA but couldn’t sneak him onto the PS. BB rarely puts all his eggs in one basket especially on a rookie kicker or punter from the limited amount of times we have seen that. There is always competition.
 

RetractableRoof

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Ghost battled Martin Gramatica back in 2006 and he was a 4th round pick. Last year Bailey had to win it. Before that BB took that left footed punter as a UDFA but couldn’t sneak him onto the PS. BB rarely puts all his eggs in one basket especially on a rookie kicker or punter from the limited amount of times we have seen that. There is always competition.
I forgot about Gramatica. I guess bringing in competition makes more sense for BB's patterns than not - even a desired kicker. Thanks for the example.
 

Cotillion

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Why would you expect a kicker battle? The Pats took him where they did (against most expectations apparently), so they believed he had something that the others did not, or even the parade of kickers from last year. Personally, I was intrigued by the Youtube trick shot artist from last year. When it comes to special teams, doesn't BB spend more when he views them to be solid for a long period of time? The long snapper Joe Cardona wasn't expected to be drafted (I don't think), but people were saying he was the best pure long snapper in years. BB drafted him, essentially paying a premium for the skill/consistency. I'm NOT saying this kicker is in the same category of "best in a while" or anything, but doesn't this sound like BBs pattern of paying a premium for someone he really likes on STs? If that pattern is accurate, why bring in competition for him immediately? Maybe later in camp if he spits the bit or something, but I don't see the point of it out of the gate.

Do you see something in BB's habits or patterns that indicates differently? Edit: other than the fact that BB would probably bring someone to compete with his dog if he thought it would improve the team.
Did you catch the way he partially switched into scout mode when talking about Nike? Uses his paws well. Good something something.
 

E5 Yaz

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I hope you don’t let your wife read this board, that fight would require the police. And involve a lot more violence than the V&N monkey poo-flinging contests do.
I was referencing my parents.
 

RetractableRoof

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Am I the only one here old enough to remember food fights in school cafeterias?
Old enough to have been asked to eat from home for a day or two because of a food fight in the cafeteria. Apparently condiments are hard to clean off upper windows in a cafeteria, which I took the heat for after being identified as inciting said food fight. And I can tell you the conversation I had with my mom after that could not be characterized as a salad fight. lol It was more like a game of 1-2-3-backhand, which wasn't nearly as fun.
 

Boston Brawler

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Whichever poster was wanting a current military opinion on the tattoo can PM me. I screened tattoos on new recruits for all services for two years, and got extensive training from the FBI gang/extremist task force.

I’m going to respect the mods and not give my opinion here.
 

Shaky Walton

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Just out of curiosity, doesn't the Patriots run of success over the last 20 years imply they are collectively doing something better than the rest of the league (in terms of playoff/championship results)? If BB listened to the pundits (like Borges?) and others, Brady was done 6-8 years ago. There's 2 superbowls gone from the team, etc. I don't mean to say "in Bill we trust", because that's not it. But for me, it's certainly "in Bill I trust more than some half baked pundit who's trying to generate clicks versus building a team with expectations of winning". Or am I missing your point?
No, I agree. I was just wondering IF BB looks at all at the views of others as a data point. My point was not to criticize. It's just interesting to me the extent to which Bill is a maverick and I wonder if his decision making also implies that he does not mine any outside information and factor it in to some extent.
 

splendid splinter

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No, I agree. I was just wondering IF BB looks at all at the views of others as a data point. My point was not to criticize. It's just interesting to me the extent to which Bill is a maverick and I wonder if his decision making also implies that he does not mine any outside information and factor it in to some extent.
I’m guessing no. The Pats employ a small army of scouts and analysts who break down more film than the pundits do, talk to more people, and actually go and watch these kids play. And they are focused on the entire draft population, whereas a guy like Kiper (not picking on him, he’s just the most prominent pundit) spends more of his time on the first round, since that’s what he mocks repeatedly and talks about on TV pre-draft. He knows enough about the later round guys to speak intelligently about them during draft coverage, but I’m sure he has nowhere near the depth of knowledge that the Pats do. And he understands somewhere between 0 and 10% of what BB thinks of his current roster, his schematic plans for the coming season, and what he thinks will happen with cut-downs and the like.

Draft punditry has to be one of the only predictive “industries” where, when the prediction is wrong, especially when the player goes higher, the fault is with the team who didn’t meet the pundit’s expectations and not the fault of the pundit. It’s like projecting a stock to hit $200 by year’s end and then blaming people for not having bought it when it doesn’t.
 

lexrageorge

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I’m guessing no. The Pats employ a small army of scouts and analysts who break down more film than the pundits do, talk to more people, and actually go and watch these kids play. And they are focused on the entire draft population, whereas a guy like Kiper (not picking on him, he’s just the most prominent pundit) spends more of his time on the first round, since that’s what he mocks repeatedly and talks about on TV pre-draft. He knows enough about the later round guys to speak intelligently about them during draft coverage, but I’m sure he has nowhere near the depth of knowledge that the Pats do. And he understands somewhere between 0 and 10% of what BB thinks of his current roster, his schematic plans for the coming season, and what he thinks will happen with cut-downs and the like.

Draft punditry has to be one of the only predictive “industries” where, when the prediction is wrong, especially when the player goes higher, the fault is with the team who didn’t meet the pundit’s expectations and not the fault of the pundit. It’s like projecting a stock to hit $200 by year’s end and then blaming people for not having bought it when it doesn’t.
What's true with the Pats is true with most if not all NFL teams.

Kiper's mocks are likely the butt of jokes among the NFL clubhouses, as are most other mocks they see. I don't believe any of the media mocks are given any thought when teams make out their own draft boards.
 

RetractableRoof

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No, I agree. I was just wondering IF BB looks at all at the views of others as a data point. My point was not to criticize. It's just interesting to me the extent to which Bill is a maverick and I wonder if his decision making also implies that he does not mine any outside information and factor it in to some extent.
I wasn't intending to reduce criticism, I was only attempting to say that of the probably hundreds of outside data point sources that he does value, with the possible(?) exception of perhaps Lombardi or Weis (that he knows and has worked with), media pundits don't meet his standard of valuable. I dare say that he'd find a conversation with the least senior locker room staff at big state u (who could tell him if player x was really in the gym when he was supposed to be) more valuable than someone who's on screen talking up that player because of whatever bias s/he has.

As an aside, I love the intrigue of the draft - it's like watching 4D chess. The more I read the stuff that SoSH's own football experts produce I see the nuances of evaluation (this little talked about skill is really important for this position versus that one). Somewhere one of the posters here linked a piece (years ago perhaps) talking to someone like Lombardi or whomever (maybe even BB) that offered a nugget on the Patriots approach. They evaluate the board with such an eye that the pool of players that interests them is often 1/3 of the class. In other words, they simply eliminate a player from the board because something they value strongly has indicated the player will not fit their system, or culture, or what have you. Subtract from that pool the players who come off the board (especially now that Flores, Vrabel, Patricia, et al are presumably after the same type of desirable traits) and he's simplified the variables on draft days. Then he's built over time an intuitive sense of other coach/team tendencies, and those all combine to give him the freedom within the draft that maybe other GMs don't have or are reluctant to exercise. I do think over time we are going to see more of BB grabbing desirable skills earlier than before to pre-empt the interests of those who've been in his locker room or drafting war room. Floating down and out of a round prevents Vrabel for instance from jumping in front of him to grab that linebacker they both like. At that point he can just set his priorities and real price threshold and jump in where he wants to grab a player. He is still going to miss on players, but it would seem to give him an increased shot at procuring what he wants. And I still might be misinterpreting his strategy/approach - I'm still a draft day checker player, never mind 4D chess.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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I don’t find it surprising at all that the Patriots missed this or failed to ask about it. We actually don’t even know the extent to which they talked to him at all. We are in the middle of a pandemic. How many team personnel are involved? A handful. It is an obscure tattoo where you need some background to understand it. Once the guy became the top kicker taken by the dynasty franchise in the NFL there were a million eyeballs on him at once. Social media being what it is once one person was smart enough to understand what it was then everyone knows.

I don’t see it as some great failing now that I have thought about it a little more. Should the Patriots ask all prospects about all of their tattoos? I guess they will now. Should they spend resources before the draft googling the obscure ones? Again I guess they will now.
 

Shaky Walton

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Leading up to the draft a few years ago there was a report that the Patriots were one of only a few teams that did not subscribe to the big national scouting services.
They wanted their scouts to look at players without any preconceived notions.
Thanks. That fits right in with their actions.
What's true with the Pats is true with most if not all NFL teams.

Kiper's mocks are likely the butt of jokes among the NFL clubhouses, as are most other mocks they see. I don't believe any of the media mocks are given any thought when teams make out their own draft boards.
Right, the mocks are almost certainly useless to teams. I don't pay any attention to them from my fan perspective. But I wonder if there are some commentators/analysts/former GMs whose opinions they would at least monitor. Perhaps some teams keep their eyes on what certain, albeit very few, commentators outside the organization have to say.

Among other reasons, it might give them some information as to how some of the others on the board might think, which in turn might affect timing decisions.

I'd love to hear a deep dive interview with Belichick on these topics after he retires for good.
 

Cotillion

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Thanks. That fits right in with their actions.

Right, the mocks are almost certainly useless to teams. I don't pay any attention to them from my fan perspective. But I wonder if there are some commentators/analysts/former GMs whose opinions they would at least monitor. Perhaps some teams keep their eyes on what certain, albeit very few, commentators outside the organization have to say.

Among other reasons, it might give them some information as to how some of the others on the board might think, which in turn might affect timing decisions.

I'd love to hear a deep dive interview with Belichick on these topics after he retires for good.
Raiders liked Mayock enough to bring him into the fold as their GM. Don't think he held any previous football job role that it was based on other than his punditry.
 

DourDoerr

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Raiders liked Mayock enough to bring him into the fold as their GM. Don't think he held any previous football job role that it was based on other than his punditry.
I think Mayock was one of the guys outside of a FO to whom BB paid attention. IIRC BB specifically went to the booth after Mayock's last Pats broadcast and wished him well.
 

Super Nomario

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I think Mayock was one of the guys outside of a FO to whom BB paid attention. IIRC BB specifically went to the booth after Mayock's last Pats broadcast and wished him well.
Belichick had a strong relationship with the late Joel Buchsbaum, too: https://blog.chron.com/ultimatetexans/2011/04/the-time-of-year-i-miss-buchsbaum-and-holovak-the-most/

Belichick said every year, the day before the draft, he called Joel and disclosed his draft board. Belichick said he actually made a few changes now and then based on Joel’s evaluations.
EDIT: some more cool Belichick / Buchsbaum anecdotes here: https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/04/19/mock-draft-oral-history-mel-kiper-joel-buchsbaum-bill-belichick-todd-mcshay
 

Saints Rest

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As a kicker, how does he rate?
I saw one place (can't recall where, might have been The Athletic) had him listed as the 10th best kicker in this year's class. NFL.com didn't even give him a prospect grade.
In the interview with BB, he talked about how he had played in a decent amount of crappy weather and that was a positive. His numbers seem decent but not earth-shattering.
 

streeter88

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Sooo.... back to football, and why this - young man - might be special.... (ducks)

Someone posted it maybe 200 posts back, referencing a serious icing attempt by the WKU coach on his 53 yarder at homecoming last year.

In the interests of bringing the discussion back to Rohrwasser's football skills and makeup, thought maybe reposting the original article by Grant Traylor of the Huntington (WV) Herald-Dispatch on the Marshall homecoming-winning rain-soaked 53-yard career-long as-time-expired FG might be of use.

Rohrwasser used New York toughness in WKU win

I won't quote it here, but it is not behind a paywall and the scene painted by the writer tells a story of a guy with a healthy dose of both talent and confidence -- and a little bit of a showman in him as well. Oh, and he was 4-4 on the day, with field goals of 46, 31, 43 and 53 yards, improving to 11 for 11 on the season at that point.

There is a youtube video as well, which only shows the actual game winner and not the two previous attempts or the scene described in the article.

Game Winning FG

#badweatherkicking #iceinhisveins #supremeconfidence #50plusleg. Looking forward to seeing him if we have a season this year.
 

Captaincoop

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Sooo.... back to football, and why this - young man - might be special.... (ducks)

Someone posted it maybe 200 posts back, referencing a serious icing attempt by the WKU coach on his 53 yarder at homecoming last year.

In the interests of bringing the discussion back to Rohrwasser's football skills and makeup, thought maybe reposting the original article by Grant Traylor of the Huntington (WV) Herald-Dispatch on the Marshall homecoming-winning rain-soaked 53-yard career-long as-time-expired FG might be of use.

Rohrwasser used New York toughness in WKU win

I won't quote it here, but it is not behind a paywall and the scene painted by the writer tells a story of a guy with a healthy dose of both talent and confidence -- and a little bit of a showman in him as well. Oh, and he was 4-4 on the day, with field goals of 46, 31, 43 and 53 yards, improving to 11 for 11 on the season at that point.

There is a youtube video as well, which only shows the actual game winner and not the two previous attempts or the scene described in the article.

Game Winning FG

#badweatherkicking #iceinhisveins #supremeconfidence #50plusleg. Looking forward to seeing him if we have a season this year.
That's very encouraging. Good stuff.