Rafael Devers Maybe Can't Really Field Baseballs?

[KenTremendous]

In the 11th inning, he made his 13th error of the year -- 46 games -- allowing the tying run to get to second with two down. They escaped, because this year's team is 80% smoke and mirrors, 10% Sale/Pom, and 10% great OF defense.

But 13 errors in 46 games is a 50-error pace.

I know errors aren't everything. But they're something. And he makes a lot of them.

He's 20, he's a great hitter, he's a big piece of the future. But is that future at 3B?

 

[Sprowl]

Yes, or at least 5 years of that future. It's not so much he can't field, but that he can't always throw. His glove work is quite good, and his reflexes look pretty quick, but he can't reliably reproduce his short-arm throwing motion.

 

[RustyKuntzwasnotastripper]

It wasn't that bad a throw, Moreland should have picked it.

 

[riboflav]

I mean there's really nowhere else to put him unless you want to slot him at DH but what do you with Hanley and do you really want to put a 20-year old with a great glove (if not accurate arm) at DH? FWIW, Speier says the Sox believe it's fatigue or a wall he's hit.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

In the 11th inning, he made his 13th error of the year -- 46 games -- allowing the tying run to get to second with two down. They escaped, because this year's team is 80% smoke and mirrors, 10% Sale/Pom, and 10% great OF defense.

But 13 errors in 46 games is a 50-error pace.

I know errors aren't everything. But they're something. And he makes a lot of them.

He's 20, he's a great hitter, he's a big piece of the future. But is that future at 3B?

His arm isn't accurate right now, but it is strong. That's generally a footwork problem. And while he may have issues picking down low on the hot corner, that's often a lateral agility problem.

So before you write him off going into his age-21 season, give him at least a few offseasons training for agility at API and working with Butterfield on footwork.

His long-term future is almost certainly at DH, but for now he's just a 20-year old playing at the MLB level one year since eating fast-food and riding the bus at hi-A..

 

[jon abbey]

So before you write him off going into his age-21 season, give him at least a few offseasons training for agility at API and working with Butterfield on footwork.

His long-term future is almost certainly at DH, but for now he's just a 20-year old playing at the MLB level one year since eating fast-food and riding the bus at hi-A..

Yeah, and I think 3B in the bigs is one of the hardest defensive positions to play well when you are very young, NY hasn't let Andujar try even once yet (his bat is certainly ready) and he is 19 months older than Devers.

 

[soxeast]

I think he'll learn 3b and be fine in future years. The kid is 20.

 

[rajendra82]

Will he play well at first, if throwing continues to be an issue going forward? We still have Chavis to slide in at third.

 

[sean1562]

We could sign Machado for third and move devers to first? I think he should get some rope though, he is only 20. Fatigue could definitely be an issue. Now if the yanks could just lose some games so we could give him a few games off.

I was also under the impression that Chavis was even worse than Devers at 3B.

 

[dhappy42]

In the 11th inning, he made his 13th error of the year -- 46 games -- allowing the tying run to get to second with two down. They escaped, because this year's team is 80% smoke and mirrors, 10% Sale/Pom, and 10% great OF defense.

But 13 errors in 46 games is a 50-error pace.

I know errors aren't everything. But they're something. And he makes a lot of them.

He's 20, he's a great hitter, he's a big piece of the future. But is that future at 3B?

As you say, he's 20. That's two years older than the typical high school senior. He hits years beyond his age. He fields like a mediocre single-A third baseman, which he'd be if he didn't hit years beyond his age. His fielding will get better. No worries.

 

[reggiecleveland]

I can't jump on the no worries train. Ever since I first heard of the kid there has been doubt he can play 3b. Those scouting reports were not based on nothing. Guys who can't do things don't automatically get better with age. How many pitching prospects could never harness the electric stuff scouts swooned over. The Sox are not going to say anything negative and hurt his confidence, or their trade FA position.

I expect 1b is the place a good hands bad thrower ends up.

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

I'm not jumping on the 'no worries' train, but I'm also not sure a comparison to pitching prospects is at all relevant. There's a lot of different variables there to make an accurate comp.

Most of the doubt about him playing 3B was about his body, that he was going to end up too big and lose his athleticism at a position that's perhaps only second behind SS where it matters most. He's always been doughy/pudgy and that was where most of the concern came from. I think long term that might be proven correct - not to a Panda level, but maybe enough to move him off 3B - but in the meantime he's shown to be remarkably nimble for his body structure and perfectly fine for 3B as a 'hot' position.

He's 20. He can make improvements on his throwing and I don't particularly worry he will, if for no other reason that he's 20 and presumably should have better coaching and be establishing better mechanics with ML coaching. I'd be far more worried if he had been showing slow feet or shitty agility. A couple nights ago, when he botched a couple ground balls, that worried me more than him bouncing a throw.

Foreign guy, 20 years old, in the big lights in a pennant race....I'll cut him some slack and take his hitting as a plus, worry about long term defense later.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

One thing I've thought about with Devers' defense is how bout having Marrero replace him at third base for the bottom half of the last inning. The Red Sox did this in 2004 with Pookey Reese for Mark Bellhorn and Eyechart for whoever was playing first base that day. The only downside to this would be hurting Devers confidence. What say SOSH? Should Devers have a defensive replacement for the late innings?
Edit... I realize if Nunez is healthy then he probably plays third and Devers DHs. I guess my question is what happens if Nunez is not healthy or if Nunez has to play another position such as second.

 

[Average Reds]

His arm isn't accurate right now, but it is strong. That's generally a footwork problem. And while he may have issues picking down low on the hot corner, that's often a lateral agility problem.

So before you write him off going into his age-21 season, give him at least a few offseasons training for agility at API and working with Butterfield on footwork.

His long-term future is almost certainly at DH, but for now he's just a 20-year old playing at the MLB level one year since eating fast-food and riding the bus at hi-A..

I think this is right. Tremendous athlete with a decent glove but an erratic (if strong) throwing arm. Has the elements of a great 3B if he can improve his footwork and agility. We should worry about the alternatives when it's clear that he can't master the position.

 

[bsj]

I was watching the 11th in real time on MLB Network and Harold Reynolds made a really good point. He froze up on the moment he threw and showed he is throwing with 3'fingers on the ball, which is causing it to drop almost in a sinker motion. This as opposed to the traditional two finger throw that allows for some slight rise across the diamond.

 

[Koufax]

On NESN they described it as a palmball, saying that all 4 fingers were on the ball. Showed it in slo mo. Definitely something that some training should eliminate.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Butterfield is supposed to be an infield wizard, so some tutoring there will likely help Devers going forward.

While he didn't make as man errors, the Sox did win a World Series in 2013 with the rookie Bogaerts playing third base (not his natural position!) so I'm not quite sure I'm worried yet.

 

[DennyDoyle'sBoil]

I'm not too concerned about the fielding. It's a position where there is zero margin for error. He has shown an ability to get to balls to his left and he plays the slow stuff that he has to charge well. He gets caught in the switches sometimes when he has to decide whether to get all the way in front of a hard hit ball or to play it side saddle, and sometimes he botches his extension on balls he has to lay out for. But I think these are just errors for which there is nothing like reps in live games at the MLB level. You get less than a half second to make these decisions. It's a bit troublesome that he has to get these reps in a pennant race and in the playoffs but what can you do? Thanks Panda.

I am concerned about his throwing. We've speculated in game threads that he has the yips. He's thinking too much and aiming, is what it looks like to me. There was a game this year where he was double clutching everything. I think he was initially surprised by just how little margin there is for anything but a perfect play at third base in the MLB. He had a couple of plays where he paused an extra beat on fairly routine plays and got beat to first by Gary Sanchez -- not the world's fastest runner. I think that's fucking with him. He also seems to take the errors pretty hard from dugout reactions.

There isn't a great cure for the yips. It might be worse after last night. How do you tell a kid to not think and just throw? You have to think not to think. It's like telling someone not to imagine a purple elephant. Can't do it. You just have to wait until he gets distracted enough by game situation or whatever, makes a few good throws, and the muscle memory doesnits thing. He had what seemed like a dozen chances last night. It was a lot. You can go a whole weeken with five. Hopefully he'll focus on the ones he got right.

 

[JimD]

I suspect it's a combination of things. He's likely fatigued somewhat from his longest professional season, he's having to work much harder at the plate now after the big hits came so easily when he first came up, and now the errors are starting to pile up. He's been pretty steady at the plate this month, just without much power - it really does make me wonder if he's just beat. I'm sure they don't want to sit him after having a few bad games in the field but at some point it risks being counter-productive.

 

[Minneapolis Millers]

Boggs was stuck in AAA despite a great bat because of his fielding, which eventually got better and became good. Youkilis took a while to develop at 3rd. Improvement isn't guaranteed but can happen, especially for a 20 year old. IMO, Devers has sufficient agility, solid hands, and a strong enough arm. Work on footwork and grip next offseason and let's see if the bad throws decrease. I'll put up with some extra errors over the next year or two to have his bat in the MLB lineup.

Assuming we advance in the playoffs (knocking on wood), we'll also have options for protecting late leads - Marrero as a defensive sub, as noted above. Or Holt. Nunez, too.

 

[joe dokes]

I think I read somewhere that he's getting tonight off. Off day tomorrow, so a bit of a break. With Miley's splits, its an opportune time. Maybe more SSS Marrero.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

Heck, Brooks Robinson committed 21 errors (career-high, career low .953 fld%) in 140 games in his first full season at age 21.

Just another anecdote — I'd love to see the overall data — but it seems pretty intuitive that a muscle-memory skill like throwing would get better naturally with increased reps and improve gradually over the course of a player's early-mid 20s, rather like passing in football or FT shooting in hoops.

 

[scotian1]

It seems to me that when he has time to think that is often when he makes a bad throw but when the play will be close usually his throw is strong and true. Am I correct in that observation?

 

[ElcaballitoMVP]

His fielding has been fine. He's agile enough to get to balls to his left and right. His arm is certainly strong enough. His hands are good. But there have been a couple of negative things I've noticed:
-Lack of attention at times. There have been a few times he's fielded the ball well but took too long to get rid of the ball. The results were rushed throws that were off target. That's correctable. The game should slow down for him and he'll have a better understanding of who's running and how much time he has to make the play.
-Laziness in some of his throws. A lot of this is footwork. Again, this is correctable. He's had instances where he throws flat footed or doesn't continue his momentum as he's throwing the ball to first and his throws are off target. Sometimes it feels like he has too much time and gets a little careless.

I think he'll be fine at 3B for the next few years. My main concern is how he'll handle the playoffs this year and I wonder if they'll start to use Nunez/Holt as late inning defensive replacements in close games.

 

[phenweigh]

Nunez easily got his playing time before his injury because of Pedroia's injury and a need/desire to rest other infielders. Come playoff time, hopefully there will be no injuries and there will be no need to rest the starters. I think a healthy Nunez gets the call over Devers as the starter at 3B in the playoffs.

 

[Sam Ray Not]

I think a healthy Nunez gets the call over Devers as the starter at 3B in the playoffs.

Makes sense. Depending on how serious/lingering Hanley's bicep issue is, we could just slide Devers over to DH. When you factor in footspeed, I might prefer Rafa to even a healthy Hanley.

 

[j44thor]

It seems to me that when he has time to think that is often when he makes a bad throw but when the play will be close usually his throw is strong and true. Am I correct in that observation?

This is consistent with what I have seen. He has had a couple balls tick off his glove but has more than made up for those with some outstanding defensive plays getting to balls I didn't think he had a chance to. Just seems that the balls hit right to him where he has too much time are the ones he struggles with. Nothing was worse than the MFY series when he gave up a couple "hits" simply by triple clutching the ball instead of making a routine throw.
Still Moreland makes the pick last night 8/10 times minimum. Didn't even have to come off the bag and it wasn't a high hop, fairly routine for a 1B.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

Still Moreland makes the pick last night 8/10 times minimum. Didn't even have to come off the bag and it wasn't a high hop, fairly routine for a 1B.

Agreed that, at least last night, it may have been as much on Moreland as Devers that the throw got away. And perhaps Moreland had trouble with it because of that sinking action that a couple other posters were alluding to (via MLB Net and NESN analysis).

If Devers is throwing sinkers, even inadvertently, that's correctable. I'd say it's imperative that they correct it because even the softest handed first baseman is going to have trouble catching sinkers once in a while.

 

[smallball]

Yeah, and I think 3B in the bigs is one of the hardest defensive positions to play well when you are very young, NY hasn't let Andujar try even once yet (his bat is certainly ready) and he is 19 months older than Devers.

And we all know Andujar....