R1/3: Drake Maye QB UNC

SMU_Sox

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I should note that when I talk about pinpoint accuracy I don’t hold drops or poorly run routes against QBs. Against, IIRC, Virginia, he had a guy run a dig instead of a seam. Is that the play in the video you are referring to? I will check it out tonight.
I don’t know if anyone else counts drops against the QB when charting but I don’t think so.
I also don’t hold a shit route against a guy. If you run a slant with the wrong number of steps that is on the WR.
You can strip away the WR issues and the scheme issues from he is spraying out routes and throwing behind guys.

I think when you look at the guys Tice likes and how he evaluates the position you will notice that he doesn’t mind guys who have a habit for spraying balls. Trevor, Love, Maye, Ridder, etc. That’s fine.
 

SMU_Sox

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I guess to say it more succinctly there were scheme and pass catcher issues that impacted his success but there were also more examples of him missing on his own.
 

Arroyoyo

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Drake Maye will surely try to be the best Drake Maye he can possibly be. And all signs point to him being exactly what we were hoping for when it comes to putting in the work.

But there’s no way his motivation didn’t spike 1,000x after that Brady HOF induction and speech. He got a real glimpse into what winning in Boston does for a guy.
 

DJnVa

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It would be a mistake to start him with a patchwork offense. Let Brissett smooth out the kinks with the new staff and personnel and then let Maye win the job during the season.
Evan Lazar talked about this. He said if the team recognizes that Maye has won the job, but the team doesn't play him because, ostensibly, the rest of the team stinks, it would be bad for morale.
 

mauf

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Evan Lazar talked about this. He said if the team recognizes that Maye has won the job, but the team doesn't play him because, ostensibly, the rest of the team stinks, it would be bad for morale.
I agree Mayo cant bench Maye if he’s the best option, but a serviceable veteran like Brissett is likely to give the team the best chance to win Week 1. Mayo can defend giving Maye the job, because everyone knows he’s the future, but if he doesn’t, I don’t think he’ll lose the locker room unless Brissett plays badly and Mayo doesn’t change course.
 

JokersWildJIMED

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I really don’t understand the myth that Brissett is anything but a backup and emergency starter. The guy is 18-30 as a starter and is limited, to say the least. He’s a great backup and locker room guy, and he’s also great to the media so they write exaggerated stuff about him. If Brissett is your starter your season is already over before it begins.
 

P'tucket rhymes with...

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I really don’t understand the myth that Brissett is anything but a backup and emergency starter. The guy is 18-30 as a starter and is limited, to say the least. He’s a great backup and locker room guy, and he’s also great to the media so they write exaggerated stuff about him. If Brissett is your starter your season is already over before it begins.
I don't think I've ever seen him thought of around here as anything but a placeholder with a good attitude. I'd say the issue here is identifying what approach to giving the team to Maye this season has the best risk/reward profile, and people vary in terms of how long they're willing to live with Brissett.
 

mauf

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I really don’t understand the myth that Brissett is anything but a backup and emergency starter. The guy is 18-30 as a starter and is limited, to say the least. He’s a great backup and locker room guy, and he’s also great to the media so they write exaggerated stuff about him. If Brissett is your starter your season is already over before it begins.
Brissett was 13th among 33 qualifying QBs in ANY/A in 2022 with Cleveland (16 games, 11 starts). He got limited action in Washington last year but looked dramatically better than Sam Howell (admittedly a low bar) when he did play. Brissett isn’t the future of the franchise, but I could name 10-12 QBs* who played extensively last year who are worse than him

*- Mac, Wilson, Young, Howell, Dobbs, Pickett, Fields, Ridder, O’Connell, and Levis for sure, and I’d argue Murray and Wilson too. A few of those guys are obviously young players with upside who’d play ahead of Brissett if they were teammates.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Brissett was 13th among 33 qualifying QBs in ANY/A in 2022 with Cleveland (16 games, 11 starts). He got limited action in Washington last year but looked dramatically better than Sam Howell (admittedly a low bar) when he did play. Brissett isn’t the future of the franchise, but I could name 10-12 QBs* who played extensively last year who are worse than him

*- Mac, Wilson, Young, Howell, Dobbs, Pickett, Fields, Ridder, O’Connell, and Levis for sure, and I’d argue Murray and Wilson too. A few of those guys are obviously young players with upside who’d play ahead of Brissett if they were teammates.
And Brissett knows (played for) the offensive coordinator and the system.
 

lexrageorge

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I agree Mayo cant bench Maye if he’s the best option, but a serviceable veteran like Brissett is likely to give the team the best chance to win Week 1. Mayo can defend giving Maye the job, because everyone knows he’s the future, but if he doesn’t, I don’t think he’ll lose the locker room unless Brissett plays badly and Mayo doesn’t change course.
If Maye looks like 2007 Brady during the exhibition season, while Brissett looks like 2023 Mac, then there's a conversation to be had about starting Maye Week 1. There's no reason to worry about this hypothetical over a handful of 7-on-7 drills in June. Otherwise, if the locker room is lost because Mayo thinks Brissett is the best choice to start the season, then the locker room really sucks anyway. Teams with a bunch of Damien Harris' don't win much anyway.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Evan Lazar talked about this. He said if the team recognizes that Maye has won the job, but the team doesn't play him because, ostensibly, the rest of the team stinks, it would be bad for morale.
Most of these guys won't be on the next Patriots roster that wins a playoff game. I give fuckall about morale.
 

Bowser

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There's no reason to worry about this hypothetical over a handful of 7-on-7 drills in June.
Yes, my read is that Maye has had a few nice moments during 7x7 but is getting mauled -- as is Brissett -- in 11x11. I see no reason why we'd start him against live defenses. He won't be effective, and he'll probably get injured.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yes, my read is that Maye has had a few nice moments during 7x7 but is getting mauled -- as is Brissett -- in 11x11. I see no reason why we'd start him against live defenses. He won't be effective, and he'll probably get injured.
No reason to start him in games that count until smart people in that building are confident that we have an offensive line.
 

rodderick

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If he's the better player in camp, start him. Brissett isn't a complete stiff, he's had success in this league, if Maye is at or above that level already as a rookie, he should play.
 

Bowser

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If he's the better player in camp, start him. Brissett isn't a complete stiff, he's had success in this league, if Maye is at or above that level already as a rookie, he should play.
Even if the O line sucks? Like, really sucks?
 

DourDoerr

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I think the coaching staff will balance their perception of the OL’s competence with Maye’s command of the offense. If he has the scheme down cold and would be able to correctly align blocking (along with, of course, a strong showing in camp on fundamentals, etc.) - and the OL’s good enough (whatever their criteria is for that) - then I’d say he’s a go to start. Until he can correctly identify what a D is going to do - and counter that - you’d be sending him to the wolves and failure by throwing him out there prematurely. We may learn pretty soon if Mayo and staff have patience and rope.
 

Toe Nash

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Looking forward to having this conversation two hundred times for the rest of the summer.

With the new practice rules you have limited time in practice and there is no substitute for in-game reps in QB development. The Patriots need to know what his in-game flaws are as soon as possible so they correct issues and they need to know if he is trending to be THE GUY in his first two seasons so they can pursue other avenues at QB by year 3 if he is not (and they definitely need to know by the end of his third year). We were somewhat lucky that Jones completely sucked last year because if he had a decent year and they didn't have the 3 pick it would have been a tough call to extend him / exercise the 5th year option or not and the worst thing you can do is tie up a lot of money and wasted time in a mid QB.

To that end they should play him as soon as they think he is ready and if that is game 1 then I fully support it. It might be different if this were a better team but the main thing they can do to bring the next championship contender is develop Maye whether or not they win any games this year. If he sits on the bench he is learning things, but not nearly as much as if he is taking real NFL snaps.

If he is someone who breaks down under pressure or can't handle NFL hits or reads or whatever then you're going to find that out sooner or later and it's better to find out now so you can hopefully work on things. Injury is always a risk but that is true no matter what.

If he looks like a complete joke out there you can always make the switch to Brissett. If it kills his confidence and he can't recover then he wasn't going to make it in the NFL anyway.
 
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Even if the O line sucks? Like, really sucks?
Yeah this is where the “sit him for a year so Brissett can take the lumps” doesn’t make sense

In a world where the OL (and I guess receiving corps) is so bad where Maye is better off sitting, how is that going to change significantly in one off-season? I guess if they are awful and drafting top 3 and a premium OT is there for the taking and that guy pans out but this could be a 2013 type draft where OT (presumably Campbell) goes #1 overall due to lack of top end QB talent.

Going from “so bad we have to sit our prized prospect” to “good enough to play Maye” in one offseason is highly unlikely. Just based off of probabilities, most of the guys they’ve acquired (vets and rookies) this year won’t pan out (and if the offense is so bad to warrant sitting Maye, then they definitely didn’t pan out). Addressing those holes in free agency is unlikely.

At some point, Maye is going to have to play with a bad supporting cast, or the current supporting cast will have to prove to be competent.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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No reason to start him in games that count until smart people in that building are confident that we have an offensive line.
And what if that isn’t until 2026 or 2027? Building a competent OL isn’t exactly easy given how rarely good players come into free agency, the bust rates of prospects generally and this front office’s hesitation at paying the types of guys who are available externally.

If they didn’t want to pay Jonah Williams (for example), are they really going to want to pay Alaric Jackson? I would assume they’re going to go with trash heap types and draft picks again and hope they can develop someone. But that’s an uncertain and unpredictable path.
 

DJnVa

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I don't think anyone is actually saying "wait until it's a good OL" because that's dumb. What they likely mean is that since we're running a new system, it may take training camp for it to come together and figure out the combo that works. Finding the team's *best OL* is what's important.
 

bakahump

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I dont know what the answer is. But to Bubble wrap Drake in the belief the OL will get him hurt does what exactly?
I mean by that rational wouldnt Brissett be hurt by mid season? If he is hurt....and the OL is not significantly better (and will probably be worse from attrition and its own sets of injuries) Does Drake sit behind the 3rd guy? And what if he gets hurt? Cause the line like REALLY sucks. I mean at some point he plays right? Or do we put him on the PS and call it a day this year (kidding). MAYBE you could argue that 8 more weeks of backing up Brissett and Backup B will somehow enable Drake to avoid injury through some amazing ability to set protections and he suddenly develops an Innate ability to run the Offense. All better then Current Brissett and Backup B...
But that seems unlikely even with 8 more weeks of "experience". (is 8 weeks even really "experience"???).

So does Drake Play this year or not? If the answer is yes.....then starting should at least be on the table. (Granted he would have to look amazing in camp....but it should be on the table).
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't think anyone is actually saying "wait until it's a good OL" because that's dumb. What they likely mean is that since we're running a new system, it may take training camp for it to come together and figure out the combo that works. Finding the team's *best OL* is what's important.
Yeah I mean that with all of the new shit going on (QB, OL turnover, WR, basically the whole coaching staff), I think that we could be setting up a soon-to-be 22yo for a shellacking in week 1. Like separated shoulders or worse beatings. Maybe wait until the dust settles a bit and see how they come together first.

I've been complaining so hard and long about our lack in draft and FA investment on the OL, particularly OT, that it's getting boring even for me. That doesn't mean "don't play the kid until the OL is plus". It's not gonna be good. It just needs not to be fucking madness. And if we get deep into the season and the line is still an embarrassing joke, at least the kid will have had another month or two of film and reps and weights and protein drinks and can maybe handle the risks a bit better.

Personally I hope that the team does what's best for the team's development, including the new #3 pick QB, and doesn't worry so much about win totals and fans' impatience for signs of hope.
 

Bowser

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What if the O line sucks, like really sucks, in 2025 too?
Speculating about how the world will be in 3 months is different from speculating about how it will be in 15. Maye needs to be thrown to the wolves eventually. Just don't think that should happen in Week 1 ... no matter how many no look passes he completes in unpadded 7x7 drills.
 

rodderick

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Even if the O line sucks? Like, really sucks?
Yup. I don't adhere to the theory that these guys are super fragile and can be broken by bad teams. If he can play, he'll plow through it. Not to mention he's a big athletic guy, dealing with pressure is one of his calling cards and he had a bad OL in college, especially last year. It's not like Mac Jones facing a pass rush for the first time in his life.

If the coaching staff believes he needs time to figure some stuff out, if there are adjustments to his mechanics they believe need a little more coaching time in order to stick, by all means sit him. If he's ready and they keep him on the bench because they're scared of what a bad OL could do to him I think that's a disservice to the team, the fans and to Maye.
 

Bowser

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To narrow the discussion, I believe what's on the table is (1) starting Maye in Week 1 vs (2) waiting to start him until Week 6 or so, at which point we've probably figured out what our best O line is.

If someone's suggesting we bubble wrap Maye for the entire season, I guess I missed it.
 

rodderick

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To narrow the discussion, I believe what's on the table is (1) starting Maye in Week 1 vs (2) waiting to start him until Week 6 or so, at which point we've probably figured out what our best O line is.

If someone's suggesting we bubble wrap Maye for the entire season, I guess I missed it.
Didn't mean to imply that was your argument. I'd just start him as soon as the coaching staff deems him ready to start. Wouldn't really take the offense around Maye into consideration. Whether that's Week 1, Week 6, post bye...
 

Bowser

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Yup. I don't adhere to the theory that these guys are super fragile and can be broken by bad teams. If he can play, he'll plow through it. Not to mention he's a big athletic guy, dealing with pressure is one of his calling cards and he had a bad OL in college, especially last year. It's not like Mac Jones facing a pass rush for the first time in his life.

If the coaching staff believes he needs time to figure some stuff out, if there are adjustments to his mechanics they believe need a little more coaching time in order to stick, by all means sit him. If he's ready and they keep him on the bench because they're scared of what a bad OL could do to him I think that's a disservice to the team, the fans and to Maye.
Yeah, this is persuasive. But I do think bad teams can break players (not you, Mac). I mean, it's hard to argue the counterfactual, but Sam Darnold, to me, is a real cautionary tale. That guy had skills.
 

johnmd20

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Yeah, this is persuasive. But I do think bad teams can break players (not you, Mac). I mean, it's hard to argue the counterfactual, but Sam Darnold, to me, is a real cautionary tale. That guy had skills.
Geography can be destiny. Teams like the Jets, Commanders, Denver, Bears, and Pats set their QBs up for failure and then they fail.

Teams like KC, SF, and Baltimore get guys and they become super stars because the system and the coaching are excellent.
 
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Geography can be destiny. Teams like the Jets, Commanders, Denver, Bears, and Pats set their QBs up for failure and then they fail.

Teams like KC, SF, and Baltimore get guys and they become super stars because the system and the coaching are excellent.
How was SF’s system and coaching any different for Purdy than Lance?
 

jercra

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Somewhere in BBTL there were several videos showing how Mac made the OL look worse on multiple occasions. There are also hundreds of examples of Brady making the OL look incredible by delivering the ball to guys so fast the OL didn't really matter. My point is that the logic is circular. A bad QB can make an OL look bad and a bad OL can make a good QB look bad. If Maye is the best QB on the team then he will make the whole offense, including the OL, better. Starting a worse QB will not show the quality level of the entire offense, and there a lot more questions than just the OL. If the D doesn't have to respect the ability of the QB for 1st and 2nd down there will be a lot. Of 3rd and longs and no QB or OL will thrive in that environment.

In short, play your best players and let everything else sort itself out from there.
 

Bowser

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In short, play your best players and let everything else sort itself out from there.
This is sound logic, but a counter argument is that it's difficult to accurately evaluate rookies, and particularly a rookie QB. Could be that no number of practices and preseason action will tell us whether Maye is really better than Brissett, who is probably a top 30 QB in the league and an excellent leader.

However, if the Patriots coaching staff say Maye is better, then by all means start him in Week 1. But just acknowledging there's risk involved, and at a certain point, to me, it's not worth risking a poor (or even disastrous) start to Maye's career when we could easily take a few weeks to let our O line and WRs sort themselves out and put him under center in a shortened 12-game season, which is what he's used to playing anyway.
 

jercra

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This is sound logic, but a counter argument is that it's difficult to accurately evaluate rookies, and particularly a rookie QB. Could be that no number of practices and preseason action will tell us whether Maye is really better than Brissett, who is probably a top 30 QB in the league and an excellent leader.

However, if the Patriots coaching staff say Maye is better, then by all means start him in Week 1. But just acknowledging there's risk involved, and at a certain point, to me, it's not worth risking a poor (or even disastrous) start to Maye's career when we could easily take a few weeks to let our O line and WRs sort themselves out and put him under center in a shortened 12-game season, which is what he's used to playing anyway.
Sure, that's fair, but don't we already know pretty surely that nothing but real game speed will show the team what they actually have? I'd bet Mac absolutely dominated in camp and practice and then was, well, him, in actual games where people could actually hit him. I get the reticence about injury, but if it's really that bad then Brisset will get injured too. When that happens and Maye is sitting behind Zappe, will we all feel the same way? Injuries happen. They happen in practice. In the preseason. Off the field. Hell, I bet Aaron Rogers wishes they went with Zach Wilson until the Jets found out what kind of OL they had last year. You get 4 years. Missing out on any of that because he might get injured seems like choosing to miss the only way you'll know if he's good and can get better,
 
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I think what a lot of people are suggesting - definitely how I feel - is that it might be advisable to wait a month or so to see exactly how "the best five" shakes out along the OL before putting Maye out there in front of live bullets. Just let it settle, get a sense, achieve some semblance of cohesion...before you subject him to circumstances wherein a rookie QB might be pushed back toward the bad habits they're trying to knock out of him, put him in the best position to succeed. I hope they do that, but I agree that Maye will at some point have to face ferocity along the DL, a lack of time to throw, moments where he has to run for his life. I wonder if they give it three-ish games before throwing him into the fire. That seems right to me.
 

rodderick

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I think what a lot of people are suggesting - definitely how I feel - is that it might be advisable to wait a month or so to see exactly how "the best five" shakes out along the OL before putting Maye out there in front of live bullets. Just let it settle, get a sense, achieve some semblance of cohesion...before you subject him to circumstances wherein a rookie QB might be pushed back toward the bad habits they're trying to knock out of him, put him in the best position to succeed. I hope they do that, but I agree that Maye will at some point have to face ferocity along the DL, a lack of time to throw, moments where he has to run for his life. I wonder if they give it three-ish games before throwing him into the fire. That seems right to me.
One issue I have with this approach is that odds are you won't have a good sense of what the OL will be for Drake Maye because Brissett plays nothing like Maye. At this point in his career, he's a statue in the pocket with little to no off script skill and in all likelihood the whole rollouts and moving pockets part of the Van Pelt playbook will be scaled down for him in contrast to what it would be for Maye. It's just different. We won't know what it'll look like until he gets on the field.
 

DJnVa

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Is Brissett a statue? In 2022, in this offense he rushed for 250 yards in 11 starts (about the same as when he played a lot in earlier seasons) and was sacked at a lower than average rate.

I'm not saying he's Drake Maye obviously, but I don't think he's completely immobile.
 

rodderick

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Is Brissett a statue? In 2022, in this offense he rushed for 250 yards in 11 starts (about the same as when he played a lot in earlier seasons) and was sacked at a lower than average rate.

I'm not saying he's Drake Maye obviously, but I don't think he's completely immobile.
Yeah, maybe that characterization wasn't the fairest, but to me at this point he's a pocket passing QB with limited post snap mobility on anything but designed runs.
 

jercra

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I think what a lot of people are suggesting - definitely how I feel - is that it might be advisable to wait a month or so to see exactly how "the best five" shakes out along the OL before putting Maye out there in front of live bullets. Just let it settle, get a sense, achieve some semblance of cohesion...before you subject him to circumstances wherein a rookie QB might be pushed back toward the bad habits they're trying to knock out of him, put him in the best position to succeed. I hope they do that, but I agree that Maye will at some point have to face ferocity along the DL, a lack of time to throw, moments where he has to run for his life. I wonder if they give it three-ish games before throwing him into the fire. That seems right to me.
And if 2 OL get injured in those first 3-5 games? Does he not go in until they come back or we settle on a new best 5? There's just too much variability in the NFL to wait for stability.
 

nighthob

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And if 2 OL get injured in those first 3-5 games? Does he not go in until they come back or we settle on a new best 5? There's just too much variability in the NFL to wait for stability.
The problem is that that OL is seriously going to get a QB killed. I like Jacoby, and I'll mourn him when they take his lifeless body off the field, but I'll feel better if he's the one taking the beating. I don't want to see Drake Maye end up the next Jeff George.
 

Jimbodandy

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The problem is that that OL is seriously going to get a QB killed. I like Jacoby, and I'll mourn him when they take his lifeless body off the field, but I'll feel better if he's the one taking the beating. I don't want to see Drake Maye end up the next Jeff George.
While I agree wholeheartedly with this post, I've given up trying to convince the Veruca Salt contingent here who want their new quarterback right fucking now.
 

snowmanny

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I am completely on board with seeing Maye after the bye week. Which is like Christmas or something. But I will add that if things go south with the OL then Zappe and Milton and whoever just got cut elsewhere can be cannon fodder until 2025. I am not worried about writing off a season.
 

Jimbodandy

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I think that people are forgetting that this line had the second worst pass protection win rate in the league last year, at least for most of the year, and may be worse now. Good news, it may be better. But it might be worse. We don't know.