It's kind of unbelievable. Have reliable sources verified that this was the offer?
R1/3: Drake Maye QB UNC (1st Start this week)
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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I doubt that was the trade. I thought I saw more credible sources reporting Giants offering their 1st (#6) and 2nd (#47) from 2024.
It wasn't. if you listen to the episode. The Giants ask and its implied thats what the Pats would have wanted and the Giants were like uhh no.
I doubt it was that much, but even so they definitely would have paid quite a bit.
It amazes me that tanking isn't more prevalent than it is, given the lack of an NBA style lottery. Massive future guaranteed value by losing sometimes down the stretch.
There is definitely some tanking, playing for the future, etc. But teams and players don't seem to go nearly as all-in as they could (should?).
Yeah, wasn't the video of the call posted earlier?
Giants said something like "our first, and second, and...you guys would probably want things from next year's draft too I imagine?"
EDIT: I might be making that up. There was one clip that had the Giants asking NE to call them if they decide to move the pick. But I thought there was a second video too. Whatever. It definitely wasn't the haul posted upthread.
Giants said something like "our first, and second, and...you guys would probably want things from next year's draft too I imagine?"
EDIT: I might be making that up. There was one clip that had the Giants asking NE to call them if they decide to move the pick. But I thought there was a second video too. Whatever. It definitely wasn't the haul posted upthread.
Players never will, even more so than NBA they have no incentive to given their lack of guaranteed deals, usually incentive heavy contracts etc. Coaches usually worried about getting fired, and their next job.
Plus it’s hard to go half assed in such a physical sport. You can loaf on D in the NBA and not be susceptible to injury. If you do that in the NFL you might get killed.
I find it interesting the whole idea of if they’re not going to play him they should have traded the pick argument that is making rounds today. I’m guessing it’s an angry response from the crowd that wanted Maye to play right away. If the Pats believe he is a franchise QB, and they seem to, you don’t pass on the opportunity to draft that player. The team feels that giving him time behind the scenes will be good for him, so there is a plan in place they are following. This is a rebuild year, regardless of who starts.
That being said, can we have a like 4-6 week moratorium in game threads about switching to Maye when Brissett makes a bad play? I know some of you knuckleheads are going to be insufferable about it ha
That being said, can we have a like 4-6 week moratorium in game threads about switching to Maye when Brissett makes a bad play? I know some of you knuckleheads are going to be insufferable about it ha
There's honestly not a lot of difference in many cases between the top handful of draft picks. Generational talented QB's are rare, and often don't go #1 or #2. Just looking at 2023, the top 10 QB's by total yards thrown went 5, 1, 135, 7, 262, 10, 26, 2, 1, 1. And none of Goff, Baker, or Lawrence (the 3 #1's) have won a Super Bowl, and only of them has even appeared in one.
The problem with drafting Zach Wilson at #2 is not the fact that the Jets missed out on Trevor Lawrence. It's that they also missed out on picking Micah Parsons, Amon-Ra St Brown, Ja'Marr Chase, or Patrick Surtain (among many others) that would have really helped them.
This misses the point, forget the outcome, just talk about the value. You can get a lot of extra picks going back from 3 to 6 for example. You create lots of value out of thin air by strategically losing at the end of the year.
Agree with CD and others the short player careers, non guaranteed $, and general nature of football would make it very difficult on the field. But ownership could certainly do more to force a tank job than they do.
Oh it's unquestionably that. Throw the parachute out of the plane, I want my Drake Maye now.
Great fucking pull.
If the Pats aren't playing Maye because he's just too raw and too far away to start games that's one thing (despite the super high ceiling, it seems like he was always the top QB prospect that was farthest away from being ready). If the Pats aren't playing Maye because the rest of the offense isn't ready for him (specifically they don't think the offensive line can keep him upright), then it's closer to a real question. I'm really hoping it's the former because the latter is pretty damn pathetic.
The Pats are doing what they think is best for his development. Outside of the “get his feet wet” argument, what’s another positive you can point to him starting too early instead of late? I’ve got plenty of negative instances I can point to starting a QB too early. Are you seriously going to harp on him taking an extra few months in development in 4 years? Seriously, ask yourself, what option is better for him in 4 years?
JT O'Sullivan had an interesting review of Maye's performance during that last preseason game. I am no expert, but this analysis suggests he has a ways to go on his footwork.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnKQQD8Cbbs
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnKQQD8Cbbs
I would use a different adjective: stupid.
Mac Jones was far more productive in his first training camp tham Maye was this year. It seems obvious that Maye is toolsy, raw, and not ready.
I had watched that a few days ago and couldn't make it through the first few minutes.
He had issues with Maye working his way into trouble in the pocket. The example he used showed him climbing the pocket...but he ignored that Maye was deep in his own endzone and was probably hyper aware to not take a sack for a safety. The next play, he complained that he climbed the pocket and worked his way into trouble again...but if he hadn't climbed the pocket (and delivered a great throw), he absolutely would have been sacked by the defensive end speed rushing around the edge. He then doubled down and complained that he should have thrown the ball to a more open receiver, who also happened to be ten yards shorter than the guy he hit in stride. So...the complaint is he didnt take a sack off the edge and then delivered a perfectly thrown ball to a receiver running a middle route instead of a short route? Got it. The third example, hes complaining about Mayes footwork because he took one step to deliver the football in a pocket that completely collapses on him? Ok.
Sometimes I like peoples breakdowns, sometimes I think people see what they want to see.
To me, stepping up in the pocket is a skill/habit that many young QBs seem to lack. The first instinct seems more likely to be trying to escape to the outside. I'd much prefer to see him stepping up too much at this stage than not at all.
I know that Simmons talks to people who are well-placed in Boston sports, but:
(1) I find it very, very, very hard to believe the Pats wouldn't have taken that offer given that both the Pats and Giants would be expected to be awful this year after that trade;
(2) I know it's heavily edited, but at no point on Hard Knocks did I get the impression that the Giants were so deeply in love with Maye that they would be willing to give away two drafts to acquire him. They seemed far more enamored with Jayden Daniels than Maye. My one hesitation in saying this is that the show spent A LOT of time talking about the Eli Manning trade, so maybe they expected something big to happen.
(3) When Simmons says things that NO ONE else has reported, I tend to assume that he's "reporting" a third-hand rumor that may have gotten garbled in transmission. It's a little hard to believe that no NY or Boston reporters caught wind of an offer that significant, but Bill did.
All of that said, nothing's impossible, and I suppose there is some tiny possibility that Wolf could have decided that he couldn't trade out of 3 under any circumstances because he didn't see an NFL starter in the 2025 QB crop and didn't want to be rebuilding without a QB until 2026.
This is how it played out on Hard Knocks:
And FWIW, in the draft day episode when Schoen was going over scenarios with a Mara, they had Maye as QB2 on their big board.
- In the first or second episode, at the combine, Schoen walks over to the Patriots box in Indy, tells a joke about how nobody ever went into this booth in the past, then tells Wolf that before Wolf does anything with the pick, let him know.
- In the draft episode, Schoen had a conversation with one of the Mara's about the possibility of trading up for a QB.
- On the afternoon of the draft, Schoen calls Wolf to get a final answer:
- Wolf says the Pats are staying and it'd take "1,2,3 this year, 1,2 next year...I'm exaggerating but the position I'm in at QB..."
- Schoen says he gets it. Wolf apologizes for not having better communication, Schoen says no worries, you gotta do what is best for your team.
And FWIW, in the draft day episode when Schoen was going over scenarios with a Mara, they had Maye as QB2 on their big board.
Thanks for all of these clarifications. I thought I'd watched the show pretty carefully, but apparently not as carefully as I should have (esp. Maye being #2 on their draft board).
Also, it sounded to me like Wolf was basically like ‘yeahhhh uhhh so these picks and those picks and also them other picks….y’know whatever package you wouldn’t be willing to offer.’ And if Schoen said ‘yeah that works!’, Wolf would’ve said ‘oh and David goddamn Putney.’ And so on.
Maybe. I think that Wolf would have taken #6, two more top-75 picks this year and another three top 100 picks next year without much thought. Like not even, "give me a second to converse with the braintrust" thought. Take that before they change their minds.
I think It all depends on Wolf’s mindset. Does he believe his best shot - by far - at a franchise QB is through a top 1-3 draft pick. And do Mayes, Daniel’s fit his definition of a franchise? If they do, then there’s an extremely tiny lane to trade out of the chance to get them. The hauls suggested here would no doubt improve the team, so maybe you’re lifting the team to top 5 or worse draft range.
So, what to do from there? Actively tank somehow? This past season demonstrated to me the difficulty of this. Despite below awful QB play, it was white-knuckle misery to get the #3 slot. Does Wolf want to tempt fate and be in the crosshairs while shepherding a 2 win season? An elderly owner and fans will continue to loudly chafe at watching an awful QB subvert the team’s chances from Week 1. And this doesn’t take into account the chance that Mayes or Daniel’s has a semi-Stroud season, further turning up the heat.
He could do a trade up for a QB in the next year’s draft but goodbye haul and he’s punted on a season. For me, it comes down to job security. There are only so many GM jobs. I don’t think he trades out for almost any price. Maybe 3 #1’s, some #2’s + established star from a lousy team?
So, what to do from there? Actively tank somehow? This past season demonstrated to me the difficulty of this. Despite below awful QB play, it was white-knuckle misery to get the #3 slot. Does Wolf want to tempt fate and be in the crosshairs while shepherding a 2 win season? An elderly owner and fans will continue to loudly chafe at watching an awful QB subvert the team’s chances from Week 1. And this doesn’t take into account the chance that Mayes or Daniel’s has a semi-Stroud season, further turning up the heat.
He could do a trade up for a QB in the next year’s draft but goodbye haul and he’s punted on a season. For me, it comes down to job security. There are only so many GM jobs. I don’t think he trades out for almost any price. Maybe 3 #1’s, some #2’s + established star from a lousy team?
An interesting question was posed in a Globe article this morning (which might have been asked and answered elsewhere before, apologies if this is redundant):
How many games does Maye need to start this season to get out of it what you'd want and go into next year as the starting QB?
Former Panthers/Washington HC Ron Rivera and Scott Zolak both said the threshold was four starts. If Maye spends this season and the offseason healthy-- so he can keep working on improving his development/skills areas-- and starts the last four games of the season than both he and the coaching staff will have enough to know what to work on in the off-season and how best to line things up for him at the start of next year
Rob Ninkovich is quoted as saying you'd want him to start at least ten games to get the same benefit. But since he's neither been a QB nor an offensive coach I'd weigh his answer a little less than Rivera/Zolak's
Upshot: we can debate all kinds of reasons why it would be great to see Maye on the field earlier rather than later. And I 100% get all the people saying they want to see him on the field sooner rather than later
And, at the same time, in order to position the team to start getting better next season we're not really undermining what needs to happen next spring and summer by having Maye sit for more of October and November
How many games does Maye need to start this season to get out of it what you'd want and go into next year as the starting QB?
Former Panthers/Washington HC Ron Rivera and Scott Zolak both said the threshold was four starts. If Maye spends this season and the offseason healthy-- so he can keep working on improving his development/skills areas-- and starts the last four games of the season than both he and the coaching staff will have enough to know what to work on in the off-season and how best to line things up for him at the start of next year
Rob Ninkovich is quoted as saying you'd want him to start at least ten games to get the same benefit. But since he's neither been a QB nor an offensive coach I'd weigh his answer a little less than Rivera/Zolak's
Upshot: we can debate all kinds of reasons why it would be great to see Maye on the field earlier rather than later. And I 100% get all the people saying they want to see him on the field sooner rather than later
And, at the same time, in order to position the team to start getting better next season we're not really undermining what needs to happen next spring and summer by having Maye sit for more of October and November
I think it would be great to see Mayo play him in and off depending on opponent and what they want to work on in terms of development. Also: It would make everyone absolutely insane.
I mean...who knows, but I would think every QBs development is different. One game was enough for Mahomes. Probably gets affected by practice reps and so on too. Four games seems low to me. He would really just be getting started and having to make adjustments. I'd like it be closer to 12 games. Let him go through both highs and lows and figure things out. Fight through fatigue, build some callouses. As has been said many times, also likely academic. He may be in there this week after Jacoby gets pancaked and aggravates his shoulder or suffers some other injury.
No doubt
And if you could guarantee the scenario where Drake wasn't injured than playing more games is almost certainly better for his development
That said, it was interesting to hear that for the coaching staff to have everything they need to create a highly productive offseason training/practice regime, and get him fully ready to start game one of next year, they only need him to play >=4 games.
FWIW, Mayo confirmed Maye is getting 30% of practice reps as part of their development plan. That is high for a backup in-season.
A good look at Maye's practice week from Pats.com:
"Early in the week, I was getting some reps. We'd go against the defense kind of good on good," said Maye. "But when we got ready for the opponent, Jacoby's the one in the game, so he gets them. So, then, getting some scout-team [reps]. Trying to do a good job last week emulating Joe Burrow."
"That's the best thing about playing on the scout team. Our defense is a great defense; you see what they did on Sunday vs. Joe [Burrow]. Just getting reps to see if I can fit in this in there, maybe fit this corner route in there, see if I can throw this crossing route if I look off this guy. Just trying to get reps that I'm not getting with our offense with the scout team," Maye explained.
Along with having a virtual room at the facility, Maye has an at-home kit. The Pats quarterback has his own VR headset that he can use to run through plays and situations during his downtime.
"You can put on the goggles and really play, but what I like doing more is you can look on the iPad and scroll and say versus this coverage, this is our offense. This is what our routes look like, so there are two ways to do it," Maye explained. "I'll go through two-minute throughout the week, some third down calls, and just our base concepts. Just come back to the basics. It's great that, hey, I'm not getting reps throughout the week with these plays, so I can go hit them. It's been an awesome thing."
https://www.patriots.com/news/inside-rookie-qb-drake-maye-s-first-regular-season-week-with-the-patriots
"Early in the week, I was getting some reps. We'd go against the defense kind of good on good," said Maye. "But when we got ready for the opponent, Jacoby's the one in the game, so he gets them. So, then, getting some scout-team [reps]. Trying to do a good job last week emulating Joe Burrow."
"That's the best thing about playing on the scout team. Our defense is a great defense; you see what they did on Sunday vs. Joe [Burrow]. Just getting reps to see if I can fit in this in there, maybe fit this corner route in there, see if I can throw this crossing route if I look off this guy. Just trying to get reps that I'm not getting with our offense with the scout team," Maye explained.
Along with having a virtual room at the facility, Maye has an at-home kit. The Pats quarterback has his own VR headset that he can use to run through plays and situations during his downtime.
"You can put on the goggles and really play, but what I like doing more is you can look on the iPad and scroll and say versus this coverage, this is our offense. This is what our routes look like, so there are two ways to do it," Maye explained. "I'll go through two-minute throughout the week, some third down calls, and just our base concepts. Just come back to the basics. It's great that, hey, I'm not getting reps throughout the week with these plays, so I can go hit them. It's been an awesome thing."
https://www.patriots.com/news/inside-rookie-qb-drake-maye-s-first-regular-season-week-with-the-patriots
Which means he is gonna start at some point later in this season because they know their is a ceiling with Brissett.
Makes sense. I mean, Jacoby Brissett is not the future for this team at the QB position. Drake Maye might not be either, but at some point they'll need to find out.
I don’t think this season is about finding out. I think it’s about getting him live game reps so he can see what the game looks like at the pro level and speed without getting him blown up, so that he can take that into the offseason with things he has to work on, and then come into 2025 with an improved OL and maybe one more offensive weapon such that 2025 is his real audition.
So if Maye was emulating Burrow in practice (which makes all kinds of sense to me), I wonder what Milton was doing to earn special mention (among others) for his practice week.
With the understanding that Maye looking like a really high-ceiling QB with a bright future in the last month of the year might really help improve the free agent recruiting for that additional offensive weapon
Drake Maye playing well for 4 games isn't swaying anyone worth bringing in.
Hard to say, without being in someone else's head
I remember when everyone was convinced that no popular free agents would ever sign with the Celtics because NBA players hated Boston. And everyone said that no NBA players with a choice would stay in Wisconsin or Minnesota or Oklahoma.
People are complicated and make decisions for all sorts of reasons. Hard to predict in advance what a particular person we don't really know will care about.
And that said, if Maye looks like something close to his upside potential in the back half of the year, it's not a stretch that some offensive players might be a little more excited to play with that at QB than what they would have been joining last summer, which was Brissett + some rookie.
On the one hand, I have a clear recollection of media reports that Jimmy G’s first five games with SF made lots of guys want to play with him. On the other hand I have no clear recollection of anybody worth anything actually going there that offseason.
I recall when Jimmy was with NE, he used to hangout with the offensive linemen and they included him in their dinners on the road. The guys loved em.