Processing the Process: 2024-2025 76ers

Euclis20 · Jun 30, 2024

TomRicardo said:
So LeBron and OG are out.

Paul George seems set on giving the Clippers one last chance. I wonder if the 76ers try to get DeRozan and Hartenstein if they blow George.

Why Hartenstein, other than to tweak the Knicks? I'd hope they would have learned their lesson about playing a center next to Embiid when they gave Horford his big contract. DeRozan would be a huge mistake, but who knows with them. I'd take KCP over either guy, and they should kick the tires on Klay.

mcpickl · Jun 30, 2024

TomRicardo said:
So LeBron and OG are out.

Paul George seems set on giving the Clippers one last chance. I wonder if the 76ers try to get DeRozan and Hartenstein if they blow George.

I could see Morey being the guy who holds his nose and signs Miles Bridges if George doesn't take his money.

128 · Jun 30, 2024

TomRicardo said:
So LeBron and OG are out.

Paul George seems set on giving the Clippers one last chance. I wonder if the 76ers try to get DeRozan and Hartenstein if they blow George.

What leads you to believe PG isn't Philly-bound?

Euclis20 · Jun 30, 2024

128 said:
What leads you to believe PG isn't Philly-bound?

He pretty clearly wants to stay in LA, for the most money possible. LA clearly wants him back, at less than the max (if they wanted to move on, they would've tried to find a working deal with the Warriors). He just turned 34 and has made over $300M in salary, and if winning a title is the most important thing, I don't see Philly being that much better of an option that LA. What's more likely, he uproots his family and moves across the country, or he takes less than the max to stay where he's comfortable? Maybe it ends up being a pride thing, but all of this feels like negotiating to get the most out of the Clippers, and ultimately they'll find common ground.

PedroKsBambino · Jun 30, 2024

Ingram was mentioned in a HoopsHype article as a Philly option, and that makes some sense as a target for Philly. They have picks, which NOLA presumably wants, and while you'd think they also want some talent it's not impossible NOLA is open to pick-heavy deal...though you'd want SOME playable talent I'd think.

I think Hartenstein is a nice fit, for a couple reasons: you could probably play some minutes many games (not against everyone) with him and Embiid together. But the bigger reason is you have to plan, as Philly, for a minimum of 20 games a year Embiid misses don't you? Hartenstein gives you a credible 5 for the 20+ games Embiid misses, and can help you reduce his minutes in the games he plays. A couple Philly administrations ago they understood this (with the Horford acquisition) and it didn't really execute well, but the underlying reasons to do it remain. It's crazy for them to assume Embiid plays more than 65 games, imo.

I don't like the fit of Derozan with Philly, but he's going to score and I guess you could believe Derozan plus KCP, or Derozan plus Hartenstein, really helps you with the depth around your stars in a way that impacts winning more than a single guy.

Zach Levine with one or more firsts stapled to him is probably the last-last move if you are Morey, it has a chance of working (not a high one, but something) and preserves the salary slot. I probably like that idea more than many here will - it feels realistic to me even if imperfect.

Euclis20 · Jun 30, 2024

PedroKsBambino said:
Ingram was mentioned in a HoopsHype article as a Philly option, and that makes some sense as a target for Philly. They have picks, which NOLA presumably wants, and while you'd think they also want some talent it's not impossible NOLA is open to pick-heavy deal...though you'd want SOME playable talent I'd think.

I think Hartenstein is a nice fit, for a couple reasons: you could probably play some minutes many games (not against everyone) with him and Embiid together. But the bigger reason is you have to plan, as Philly, for a minimum of 20 games a year Embiid misses don't you? Hartenstein gives you a credible 5 for the 20+ games Embiid misses, and can help you reduce his minutes in the games he plays. A couple Philly administrations ago they understood this (with the Horford acquisition) and it didn't really execute well, but the underlying reasons to do it remain. It's crazy for them to assume Embiid plays more than 65 games, imo.

I don't like the fit of Derozan with Philly, but he's going to score and I guess you could believe Derozan plus KCP, or Derozan plus Hartenstein, really helps you with the depth around your stars in a way that impacts winning more than a single guy.

Zach Levine with one or more firsts stapled to him is probably the last-last move if you are Morey, it has a chance of working (not a high one, but something) and preserves the salary slot. I probably like that idea more than many here will - it feels realistic to me even if imperfect.

Ingram is interesting, in that he's still reasonably young and was excellent in his one healthy playoff appearance. I'd have more faith in LaVine if he was the same guy from two years ago, whose major problem was between his ears and his defensive effort. He turns 30 in March and has had multiple major foot and knee injuries. For a guy that gets a ton of his value from his athleticism, that's really worrying to me.

It's a bit off topic but on the Horford thing, I wouldn't give the previous administration credit for seeing that Embiid needed a better than average backup. A [small] part of the reason Horford went there was because he didn't want to play center at all, and Philly envisioned Al as primarily playing next to Embiid as a power forward, not backing him Embiid up at center. The 4 most common 5-man lineups with Embiid also included Horford. They brought Al off the bench in a handful of games as a backup center as a desperate attempt to salvage the situation, but their main plan was a jumbo lineup with Richardson, Simmons, Harris, Horford and Embiid. Embiid was also just 25 that year, it wasn't 100% clear yet that he could not be relied upon to stay healthy throughout the season.

PedroKsBambino · Jun 30, 2024

Euclis20 said:
Ingram is interesting, in that he's still reasonably young and was excellent in his one healthy playoff appearance. I'd have more faith in LaVine if he was the same guy from two years ago, whose major problem was between his ears and his defensive effort. He turns 30 in March and has had multiple major foot and knee injuries. For a guy that gets a ton of his value from his athleticism, that's really worrying to me.

It's a bit off topic but on the Horford thing, I wouldn't give the previous administration credit for seeing that Embiid needed a better than average backup. A [small] part of the reason Horford went there was because he didn't want to play center at all, and Philly envisioned Al as primarily playing next to Embiid as a power forward, not backing him Embiid up at center. The 4 most common 5-man lineups with Embiid also included Horford. They brought Al off the bench in a handful of games as a backup center as a desperate attempt to salvage the situation, but their main plan was a jumbo lineup with Richardson, Simmons, Harris, Horford and Embiid. Embiid was also just 25 that year, it wasn't 100% clear yet that he could not be relied upon to stay healthy throughout the season.

Yeah, I am not a Levine believer, to be clear. But I also get Morey's problem too: he needs someone who helps them compete now, or he really risks Embiid wanting out. And even if Embiid is happy, he's 30 with an injury history longer than he is tall so there sort of is no tomorrow anyway there. The theory on Levine would as much be "add another future pick (which Bobby Marks has reported Bulls would happily staple to Levine) and keep that salary slot" as it would be bet on the player. Though, he can still shoot so I do think it's possible---not likely, and I share your concners about health---that as more of a spot-up shooter and secondary guy he'd rebound some statistically.

Thanks on Horford---I recall the jumbo thing but also recalled a bunch of reporting they wanted to be able to back up Embiid. That full-jumbo lineup is....wow. not the direction the NBA has gone.

ifmanis5 · Jun 30, 2024

Philly is after PG and KCP. Embiid likes it.
View: https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/1807500690421653523

League sources tell The Stein Line that the ever-ambitious 76ers have explored the feasibility of/cap gymnastics required to try to land both Paul George and Kentavious Caldwell-Pope in free agency.

PedroKsBambino · Jun 30, 2024

To me Philly makes a lot of sense for PG, but it's not my life.

If he is trying to leverage a four year max from Clippers, this is exactly what you'd leak right before you went back to them isn't it?

RorschachsMask · Jun 30, 2024

View: https://twitter.com/ChrisBHaynes/status/1807504228027429150

128 · Jun 30, 2024

Euclis20 said:
He pretty clearly wants to stay in LA, for the most money possible. LA clearly wants him back, at less than the max (if they wanted to move on, they would've tried to find a working deal with the Warriors). He just turned 34 and has made over $300M in salary, and if winning a title is the most important thing,

I'm not trying to be an asshole, but how it is "clear" that PG wants to stay in LA (for the most money possible)? Not saying that won't happen, but is anyone credible reporting that that's the case?

Euclis20 · Jun 30, 2024

128 said:
I'm not trying to be an asshole, but how it is "clear" that PG wants to stay in LA (for the most money possible)? Not saying that won't happen, but is anyone credible reporting that that's the case?

Not at all, it's more of a feeling I get watching him. It's the only place he's truly chosen to be as a pro, he's got his podcast (which is easier to do in LA than anywhere else, as so many players live and spend time there), he got married in LA and has 3 children there (it's a pain in the ass to move your family), and Windhorst reported a couple of days ago on his podcast that PG "wants to stay on the west coast." Obviously there is more than just LA on the west coast (and the quote was in context of PG potentially being moved to the Warriors), but Philly and Orlando just as obviously do not qualify as west coast.

He doesn't have any ties to Philly as far as I know of, and the odds of a title are reasonably close between Sixers and the Clippers. If he leaves it would be just about the money (nothing wrong with that), and it will come down to whether the Clippers offer more than they are comfortable with, or George accepts less. I think one side bends, either because the Clippers want the best and most exciting team possible as they open a new building or because George doesn't want the final stretch of his career to be a reboot on the other side of the country. Until he actually signs elsewhere, I see this as nothing more than negotiating. The Clippers are even more likely to break now, because losing PG for nothing is a disaster.

Cellar-Door · Jun 30, 2024

A 2nd rounder for PG is a great trade for Philly

Euclis20 · Jun 30, 2024

Thinking more about George, has anyone else stock declined as much as his over the past 5 seasons? In 2019, he was 28 and coming off a career year in which he averaged 28/8/4, led the league in steals, was 3rd in MVP voting and made 1st team all-NBA and 1st team all-Defense. Other than the freak leg injury during the scrimmage in 2014, he was extremely durable: From 2012-2019, he missed 0, 3, 2, 76 (freak injury), 1, 6, 3 and 5 games. Excluding the 14/15 season, that's fewer than 3 games missed on average. He made all-NBA 5 times in his previous 6 healthy seasons. It wasn't clear if he could be the #1 on a title team, but he seemed like the best #2 in the league, or close to it.

In LA he's played more than 56 games just once, and he's averaged over 25 games missed per season. He was 3rd team all-NBA, once. He's become a punch line, and unlike Kawhi, he doesn't have multiple finals MVP trophies to remind everyone that he was once a top 10 player. He's become an afterthought.

mcpickl · Jun 30, 2024

Euclis20 said:
Thinking more about George, has anyone else stock declined as much as his over the past 5 seasons? In 2019, he was 28 and coming off a career year in which he averaged 28/8/4, led the league in steals, was 3rd in MVP voting and made 1st team all-NBA and 1st team all-Defense. Other than the freak leg injury during the scrimmage in 2014, he was extremely durable: From 2012-2019, he missed 0, 3, 2, 76 (freak injury), 1, 6, 3 and 5 games. Excluding the 14/15 season, that's fewer than 3 games missed on average. He made all-NBA 5 times in his previous 6 healthy seasons. It wasn't clear if he could be the #1 on a title team, but he seemed like the best #2 in the league, or close to it.

In LA he's played more than 56 games just once, and he's averaged over 25 games missed per season. He was 3rd team all-NBA, once. He's become a punch line, and unlike Kawhi, he doesn't have multiple finals MVP trophies to remind everyone that he was once a top 10 player. He's become an afterthought.

A lot of guys stock have declined more.

22 year old Ben Simmons of the Process 76ers was just coming off his first All-Star appearance.

Paul George is still really good and worthy of a max contract. Ben Simmons is invisible.

Euclis20 · Jun 30, 2024

mcpickl said:
A lot of guys stock have declined more.

22 year old Ben Simmons of the Process 76ers was just coming off his first All-Star appearance.

Paul George is still really good and worthy of a max contract. Ben Simmons is invisible.

Ah yeah, Simmons takes the cake here (although he was probably still a year away from his prime). Kyrie would've been near the top of the list too, until his recent playoff run.

Auger34 · Jun 30, 2024

George was tired of dealing with Kawhi and all of the injury uncertainty…so of course Embiid is the next choice.

congrats Daryl, you put together a team with two walking injuries., I look forward to his next manifesto after his team loses in the playoffs

Euclis20 · Jun 30, 2024

Despite being pretty bearish on George, this undeniably raises their ceiling, which is what you want if you need to go deep in the playoffs. Embiid/George/Maxey is a really well-rounded top 3, and reminds me of being nervous about last year's potential Miami trio (Dame/Jimmy/Bam, which might be slightly less talented but definitely more playoff ready).

The Social Chair · Jul 1, 2024

Morey loves big names from 6 - 8 years ago. Does he know it's 2025 next season? Very GM Doc Rivers type moves.

BigSoxFan · Jul 1, 2024

The Social Chair said:
Morey loves big names from 6 - 8 years ago. Does he know it's 2025 next season? Very GM Doc Rivers type moves.

Paul George is still a very good player and he’s been an all-star the last 2 seasons. The issue with him is availability and they’re in a division with a lot of good wings that they had really no answer for. There’s also the case of the ticking Embiid time bomb so I get this aggressive move. The byproduct of this deal, of course, is that they’ll be very thin and that’s a scary proposition for a team with Embiid and George. Will they even get a single healthy playoff run? We’ll see.

InstaFace · Jul 1, 2024

BigSoxFan said:
Paul George is still a very good player and he’s been an all-star the last 2 seasons. The issue with him is availability and they’re in a division with a lot of good wings that they had really no answer for. There’s also the case of the ticking Embiid time bomb so I get this aggressive move. The byproduct of this deal, of course, is that they’ll be very thin and that’s a scary proposition for a team with Embiid and George. Will they even get a single healthy playoff run? We’ll see.

You're such a pessimist, it's not like Philly has bad team doctors or a track record of poor health for their...

...wait, really? All of them? Harden, Simmons, Embiid? What did Tobias Harris do to stay healthy, then? Yoga, really? Huh.

The Social Chair · Jul 1, 2024

I love PG. It was more Drummond and Gordon.

lovegtm · Jul 1, 2024

TomRicardo said:
Eh Paul George is still really good. The problem is him and Embiid probably need to be handled like Porzingis was last season to get to the playoffs in one piece but the 76ers do not have the depth to do that and get top six spot in the East.

Some teams learned the depth/quality rotation lesson from Boston last year. OKC, NYK, for example.

Morey is still doing his starfucker GM'ing style. No ability to adjust.

Cellar-Door · Jul 1, 2024

Yeah PHI basically had to sign Paul George. They had a ton of cap space and he was by far the best FA, they don't have an avenue to trade for anyone better and they have an MVP candidate in his 30s they need to appease and get the most out of because his size and injury history suggest he's probably only got 3-4 years left of being elite.

lovegtm · Jul 1, 2024

Cellar-Door said:
Yeah PHI basically had to sign Paul George. They had a ton of cap space and he was by far the best FA, they don't have an avenue to trade for anyone better and they have an MVP candidate in his 30s they need to appease and get the most out of because his size and injury history suggest he's probably only got 3-4 years left of being elite.

I'm fine with the move, and probably would do the same. It's just not the masterstroke people are going to act like it is.

InstaFace · Jul 1, 2024

lovegtm said:
I'm fine with the move, and probably would do the same. It's just not the masterstroke people are going to act like it is.

Agreed, I don't understand why Philly fans would be so pessimistic about it (as quoted above, though maybe that's cherry-picked and not their current vibe). They turned Harris into George for a cost of zero assets and +$15M / year. They should feel better about their team today than they were feeling as of mid-April.

Who's their backup C, though? Still Paul Reed? They really need to be hitting the DuoLingo German crash course and giving Mo Wagner a call. Gonna have a LOT of minutes to spare, one would think.

edit:

Mo Wagner: "But I deserve to be a starter in this league. I want to be starting!"
Morey:

Just a bit outside · Jul 1, 2024

InstaFace said:
Agreed, I don't understand why Philly fans would be so pessimistic about it (as quoted above, though maybe that's cherry-picked and not their current vibe). They turned Harris into George for a cost of zero assets and +$15M / year. They should feel better about their team today than they were feeling as of mid-April.

Who's their backup C, though? Still Paul Reed? They really need to be hitting the DuoLingo German crash course and giving Mo Wagner a call. Gonna have a LOT of minutes to spare, one would think.

edit:

Mo Wagner: "But I deserve to be a starter in this league. I want to be starting!"
Morey:

They signed Drummond as backup center.

InstaFace · Jul 1, 2024

Just a bit outside said:
They signed Drummond as backup center.

Then, to my point, it remains a gaping hole of uncertainty for them. I see Reed's deal is non-guaranteed. I'd still be begging Wagner, frankly. You'll need Drummond for rotational minutes when Embiid is out, which ideally will be often, if they're able to rest him as they ought. Drummond wouldn't be wasted there in that role, but he's also not the answer to "how do we win some games without Embiid?". And Paul Reed showed some stuff last year, but he's pretty clearly not that answer either. Wagner is the only good center still on the market for them - they couldn't afford whatever the asking price might be for Gobert, literally could not cobble the assets, so without Wagner, they're down to hoping for something like "Phoenix blows it up and we can get Nurkic", or maybe Draymond.

Actually, if GSW is prepared to chuck him, Draymond might be a good get for Philly, and would fit perfectly into their collection of asshole whiners there. He's due $24 this coming season, $26, $28 the seasons after that, dunno if Philly can afford that but if they're prepared to go into the tax it might be an interesting option. And a very different look, style-wise, than what Embiid gives them on defense.

Saints Rest · Jul 1, 2024

The Sixers remind me a bit of the Ewing-era Knicks. A dominant center, a mercurial guard, and then multiple whacks at filling the pieces around them with minimal success. (PS: I had no idea that Starks made All-D 2nd team and even got votes fro DPOY)

lovegtm · Jul 1, 2024

InstaFace said:
Then, to my point, it remains a gaping hole of uncertainty for them. I see Reed's deal is non-guaranteed. I'd still be begging Wagner, frankly. You'll need Drummond for rotational minutes when Embiid is out, which ideally will be often, if they're able to rest him as they ought. Drummond wouldn't be wasted there in that role, but he's also not the answer to "how do we win some games without Embiid?". And Paul Reed showed some stuff last year, but he's pretty clearly not that answer either. Wagner is the only good center still on the market for them - they couldn't afford whatever the asking price might be for Gobert, literally could not cobble the assets, so without Wagner, they're down to hoping for something like "Phoenix blows it up and we can get Nurkic", or maybe Draymond.

Actually, if GSW is prepared to chuck him, Draymond might be a good get for Philly, and would fit perfectly into their collection of asshole whiners there. He's due $24 this coming season, $26, $28 the seasons after that, dunno if Philly can afford that but if they're prepared to go into the tax it might be an interesting option. And a very different look, style-wise, than what Embiid gives them on defense.

Philly doesn't have any matching contracts for Draymond. They also are going to be well over the cap, and I think into the tax?

radsoxfan · Jul 1, 2024

If Embiid's meniscus tear is not a long term issue, and if PG has a couple more healthy All-Star levels years left, this team will be very good. Potentially better than the Knicks. Certainly more top end talent, though Gordon, Drummond, et al are not good. Aside from Maxey they are OLD.

They will almost certainly be really thin and the Celtics should have a clear edge at 4-8 on the roster (while holding their own 1-3).

snowmanny · Jul 1, 2024

Sure, they are good. But between Boston, New York, Orlando, Indiana, Cleveland and Milwaukee they could end up anywhere in the top 7.

And while I am enjoying the current Miami strategy of “how about we do nothing but piss off our annoying fans,” you never know.

PedroKsBambino · Jul 1, 2024

The other question is how well they fit together as a team/roster. That is, in the end, what was so spectacular about the Celtics---they had multiple 5 man units that could execute together at both ends. Philly has five months of play to get there, but is starting at near-zero on that and it's non-trivial to pull off. Having to use vet mins and rookies makes that harder; curious the BBIQ of the guys they do fill out with as that matters a lot in trying to build and implement a system with a new/different group of guys.

Euclis20 · Jul 1, 2024

Paul George is inarguably a big upgrade over Harris on the court, but he's gotta actually be on the court for it to matter. Harris has more points and far more rebounds over the last 5 years than George. Joel Embiid, who everyone knows cannot be trusted to stay healthy, has played more minutes over the last 5 years than Paul George. The Sixers have doubled down on all-stars that cannot be relied on to be healthy when it matters. Maybe they get lucky and the stars align for them and they go on a deep playoff run.

radsoxfan · Jul 1, 2024

It’s almost certainly a good move for the 76ers this offseason, I will say that. You can argue with a lot of that they’ve done and if they should be in this position.

But as far as what to do moving forward, this is clearly the best chance to take advantage of a potential MVP caliber Embiid in the next 2-3 years.

It could easily blow up in their face for a variety of reasons, but there is at least a path to a title here. Any other non PG move this offseason wasn’t going to have any more upside and they have no time to waste.

Auger34 · Jul 1, 2024

They’ve got 3 very good players.
Kelly Oubre should be a 6th or 7th man on a really good team and he’s clearly their 4th best player.
Eric Gordon is barely a rotation player at this point and he’s definitely a starter.

Andre Drummond is their 6th man. That’s horrid

This team not only has 0 depth, they dont even have a good 4th option.

I think they’re definitely behind the Knicks.

IF fully healthy then I think they can give any team trouble but they are still comfortably behind the Celtics. There’s also no way that they will be fully healthy when it matters

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jul 1, 2024

TomRicardo said:
Eh Paul George is still really good. The problem is him and Embiid probably need to be handled like Porzingis was last season to get to the playoffs in one piece but the 76ers do not have the depth to do that and get top six spot in the East.

Problem is that Joel loves playing those meaningless games in February when he can drop 70.

InstaFace said:
They turned Harris into George for a cost of zero assets and +$15M / year. They should feel better about their team today than they were feeling as of mid-April.

Well, PHI didn't send any assets to LAC to get PG13 but they did lose a bunch of assets as they basically had to strip their team to the studs to open up the cap space. I mean they have 5 guys returning from last year's roster - Embiid, Maxey, Oubre, Ricky Council IV and Jeff Dowtin. And I guess Paul Reed is a possible 6th.

Funny how people were talking about how deep PHI was last year. But all of them - Batum and Melton, who aren't bad players, and Payne and Harris and Lowry and Hield - will likely be gone.

Are they going to be better than PHO (maybe pieces fit better but PHO's pieces are typically healthier).

InstaFace · Jul 1, 2024

wade boggs chicken dinner said:
Well, PHI didn't send any assets to LAC to get PG13 but they did lose a bunch of assets as they basically had to strip their team to the studs to open up the cap space. I mean they have 5 guys returning from last year's roster - Embiid, Maxey, Oubre, Ricky Council IV and Jeff Dowtin. And I guess Paul Reed is a possible 6th.

Funny how people were talking about how deep PHI was last year. But all of them - Batum and Melton, who aren't bad players, and Payne and Harris and Lowry and Hield - will likely be gone.

Are they going to be better than PHO (maybe pieces fit better but PHO's pieces are typically healthier).

In basketball as in life, if you don't fit the big things in first, you can have a hard time fitting them in at all.

Usually that's said to promote being more religious or devoting more time to family or something, but it applies just as well to basketball rosters. There's usually ways to add role players, but there are relatively few ways to acquire new stars, and most of them are risk-laden.

wade boggs chicken dinner · Jul 1, 2024

InstaFace said:
In basketball as in life, if you don't fit the big things in first, you can have a hard time fitting them in at all.

Usually that's said to promote being more religious or devoting more time to family or something, but it applies just as well to basketball rosters. There's usually ways to add role players, but there are relatively few ways to acquire new stars, and most of them are risk-laden.

Yes but as we see with PHO, just having the big things without the complementary pieces can mean that the big things may not matter as much.

As TRic keeps pointing out.

NomarsFool · Jul 1, 2024

If they can find a way to keep PG and JI healthy come playoff time, they should be a legit contender. However, I think recent evidence suggests that teams just aren't really able to do that. You can have as many scheduled off days as you want, but injury prone players still get injured.

tims4wins · Jul 1, 2024

View: https://twitter.com/isjanosnba/status/1807885338540659187?s=46

lovegtm · Jul 1, 2024

View: https://twitter.com/zakkondratenko/status/1807769225336852974?s=46

JCizzle · Jul 1, 2024

lovegtm said:
View: https://twitter.com/zakkondratenko/status/1807769225336852974?s=46

This, this is some good quality social media :redwine:

Processing the Process: 2024-2025 76ers

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