Price to the DL with left elbow tendinitis

DeadlySplitter

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two spot starters in a row then? they're going to have to reset the rotation after the Thursday day off
 

BaseballJones

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Sucks, but hard to complain given what the MFYs have gone through. Would be nice to have better starting pitching depth though.
 

Otis Foster

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How close is Johnson? He can go a little deeper into games than Velasquez.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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How close is Johnson? He can go a little deeper into games than Velasquez.
He's scheduled to throw a simulated game tomorrow in Baltimore after having a bullpen session on Saturday in Chicago. Presumably if that goes well, he'll probably go out on a rehab assignment in short order (maybe by the weekend?). I'd think he's at least two weeks away from contributing to the big league team, especially if the expectation is he goes into the rotation when he does return.
 

DirtyWater90

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They said the same thing about Sale last year for whatever that’s worth.
Exactly what I was thinking. It’s eerily similar. Sale was supposed to only miss one start too, would have been pitching if it was September, etc. We all know he barely pitched the rest of the season and wasn’t the same in the playoffs either. I take this with a grain of salt.
 

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And how did that turn out?

You can't just assign last year and the handling of Chris Sale in a year the team was running away with the pennant to this year and David Price in a year the team is fighting to reach .500. Nothing is the same other than a small bit of word salad.
 

bosockboy

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The Sox suddenly look like a team who could use Keuchel. June 1 the draft pick loss goes away, and he’d be perfect to allow Eovaldi to take a rover role the rest of the year to shore up the pen when he’s back.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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They didn't sign Eovaldi to that contract to have him pitch out of the pen
Exactly. And I've yet to hear a reason why pitching out of the pen, which requires pitching more often and usually with greater exertion over a short period, is somehow better for a pitcher with a history of elbow problems than starting on a regular schedule.

The only reason to put Eovaldi in the bullpen once he returns from the IL is if it is so late in the season that he won't have time to ramp up his pitch count levels in time to meaningfully contribute. See David Price in 2017. If he's back as expected in mid/late June, he's going to be in the rotation.
 

DanoooME

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The Sox suddenly look like a team who could use Keuchel. June 1 the draft pick loss goes away, and he’d be perfect to allow Eovaldi to take a rover role the rest of the year to shore up the pen when he’s back.
Are you going to pay him his full market value? He's not taking a dollar less. And that's at least a 4 year deal at over $20M per year. He's already turned down a number of lesser deals "on principle" per this article.

The Sox don't have the payroll space to sign him, or the rotation space once everyone is healthy. So people need to let this idea go already.
 

BaseballJones

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Are you going to pay him his full market value? He's not taking a dollar less. And that's at least a 4 year deal at over $20M per year. He's already turned down a number of lesser deals "on principle" per this article.

The Sox don't have the payroll space to sign him, or the rotation space once everyone is healthy. So people need to let this idea go already.
They could create space for him though, through some trades.

1. Trade JBJ to a team who could use a defensive upgrade in CF with a guy who has some solid postseason chops and who is streaky and when on, is pretty dynamic offensively. Don't get much in return; it's strictly a salary dump. Frees up $8.55 million.

2. Trade Pearce. Again, another salary dump. A team needing a RH power bat off the bench, again with postseason experience and success. Get almost nothing in return. Frees up $6.25 million.

3. Trade Nunez. Same deal. Salary dump. Don't get anything useful in return. Frees up $5 million.

That comes to just under $20 million. And they'd have enough guys to replace them. Gorkys Hernandez fills in in the OF - not as good as JBJ and he's hitting poorly in Pawtucket, but really, JBJ has done nothing this year. Holt should be back soon so he can be another IF body, with Chavis playing 2b and even 1b as needed. Brentz can be Pearce's replacement as power RH bat off the bench who can play 1b and OF as needed. No, he's not very good. But Pearce also hasn't been good at all this year.

I'm not saying these replacements are better, on the whole, than the guys they give up. And I'm not even saying that these deals really are likely. I just think that they COULD free up enough salary to pay for Keuchel if that's the direction they wanted to go. Personally, I wouldn't do it, but I think they COULD.
 

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They could create space for him though, through some trades.

1. Trade JBJ to a team who could use a defensive upgrade in CF with a guy who has some solid postseason chops and who is streaky and when on, is pretty dynamic offensively. Don't get much in return; it's strictly a salary dump. Frees up $8.55 million.

2. Trade Pearce. Again, another salary dump. A team needing a RH power bat off the bench, again with postseason experience and success. Get almost nothing in return. Frees up $6.25 million.

3. Trade Nunez. Same deal. Salary dump. Don't get anything useful in return. Frees up $5 million.

That comes to just under $20 million. And they'd have enough guys to replace them. Gorkys Hernandez fills in in the OF - not as good as JBJ and he's hitting poorly in Pawtucket, but really, JBJ has done nothing this year. Holt should be back soon so he can be another IF body, with Chavis playing 2b and even 1b as needed. Brentz can be Pearce's replacement as power RH bat off the bench who can play 1b and OF as needed. No, he's not very good. But Pearce also hasn't been good at all this year.

I'm not saying these replacements are better, on the whole, than the guys they give up. And I'm not even saying that these deals really are likely. I just think that they COULD free up enough salary to pay for Keuchel if that's the direction they wanted to go. Personally, I wouldn't do it, but I think they COULD.
This assumes that teams would be willing to take on the full salaries of JBJ, Pearce, and Nunez, which doesn't seem all that likely to me. Maybe the Sox could save $12-14M but I doubt the full ~$20M.
 

BaseballJones

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This assumes that teams would be willing to take on the full salaries of JBJ, Pearce, and Nunez, which doesn't seem all that likely to me. Maybe the Sox could save $12-14M but I doubt the full ~$20M.
For sure. The incentive would simply be that they give up basically nothing to get these guys, knowing that they have in the very recent past made huge impacts in the postseason. So it would be a little roll of the dice for them but given that none of these guys have long contracts, it wouldn't be much of a risk for them.
 

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Tell me which team is taking Nunez and his $5 million salary.

And do you think the Red Sox have as good a chance to repeat with Gorky Hernandez in the outfield as they do with JBJ?
 

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Tell me which team is taking Nunez and his $5 million salary.

And do you think the Red Sox have as good a chance to repeat with Gorky Hernandez in the outfield as they do with JBJ?
I'm still trying to figure out why they'd want Keuchel on a 4/80 contract
 

BaseballJones

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Tell me which team is taking Nunez and his $5 million salary.
No idea. If they don't have to give up anything and would like a "proven playoff performer" off the bench, who knows. Especially if the Sox threw in a lesser prospect.

And do you think the Red Sox have as good a chance to repeat with Gorky Hernandez in the outfield as they do with JBJ?
No. But they also have a better chance if Keuchel vs. AAA pitchers they have to use because of injury. Like I said, I'm not recommending they do this. I was just answering the question of whether they could afford Keuchel if they wanted to go in that direction.

PS - Come on - nobody is saying Gorkys is as good as JBJ. I never said it or hinted at it or suggested it. In fact, I specifically said he's not as good as JBJ.
 

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So you've got no one willing to take Nunez and his salary, and I am guessing, but could be wrong, no one to take Pearce and his salary.

For sure Kuechel is an upgrade. But don't you think there is a reason no other team has given him 4 years and $80 million?

And a downgrade in CF and in the lineup won't make this team a repeat champ.


Are those offloads wise if we are 12 games out of the WC at the trade deadline? Perhaps. But that is a team destroying move, not a team building move.
 

DanoooME

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No idea. If they don't have to give up anything and would like a "proven playoff performer" off the bench, who knows. Especially if the Sox threw in a lesser prospect.



No. But they also have a better chance if Keuchel vs. AAA pitchers they have to use because of injury. Like I said, I'm not recommending they do this. I was just answering the question of whether they could afford Keuchel if they wanted to go in that direction.

PS - Come on - nobody is saying Gorkys is as good as JBJ. I never said it or hinted at it or suggested it. In fact, I specifically said he's not as good as JBJ.
And evidently you missed the point about when the entire rotation is healthy, where is he going to slot in the rotation? All of these guys are being paid as starters except Eduardo, who is arb-2. Do you really want to stunt any further growth by sticking him in the bullpen? You're going to need him next year as a cheaper option in the rotation, since if you signed Keuchel to 4/$80 (and that's the lowest it could possibly be; it might be higher), the other 5 guys are being paid over $88M this year. Granted, next year, you have a rotation opening because Porcello is a free agent, but you're not saving money long term, Eduardo gets more expensive as he goes through 2 more years of arb, and everyone else would be paid at a high rate through at least 2022. So, devoting almost half of your de-facto salary cap for 3 more years beyond this one is an efficient use of resources? I'd have to disagree with that.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Are you going to pay him his full market value? He's not taking a dollar less. And that's at least a 4 year deal at over $20M per year. He's already turned down a number of lesser deals "on principle" per this article.

The Sox don't have the payroll space to sign him, or the rotation space once everyone is healthy. So people need to let this idea go already.
There were reports a couple weeks ago that Keuchel was willing to take a one-year deal. That seems like a less dicey proposition and would be a wash using the names @BaseballJones mentioned dumping if they were able to dump them.

I know this has been covered many times but if they're going to punt on the season and ship some guys off the roster for spare parts, why not give Rusney Castillo some run up here and see if he can offer anything now that it's been a couple years? Yes, he's objectionably terrible and is just as likely to put up JBJ-esque numbers at the plate without the defense to offset it, but if he shows ANYTHING he becomes someone you might be able to flip (even if it means eating some money) for more than a bag of balls. But they're paying him either way, so why not at least see if he's made any strides?
 

chawson

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Spending 4/$80 (plus tax) on a 31-year-old soft-tossing lefty seems like the pitching version of the Hanley contract. The Astros replaced Keuchel with Wade Miley for a reason.
 

jon abbey

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I know this has been covered many times but if they're going to punt on the season and ship some guys off the roster for spare parts, why not give Rusney Castillo some run up here and see if he can offer anything now that it's been a couple years? Yes, he's objectionably terrible and is just as likely to put up JBJ-esque numbers at the plate without the defense to offset it, but if he shows ANYTHING he becomes someone you might be able to flip (even if it means eating some money) for more than a bag of balls. But they're paying him either way, so why not at least see if he's made any strides?
Because while they are paying him, his salary currently does not count against the cap and the second they bring him up, that $11.7M is added to their cap number, putting them around $251M and triggering the penalties for going over $246M that they seem to be treating as a hard barrier.

Maybe even more importantly, next season's $14.2M would be added to their cap number, hurting their flexibility for next season also.
 

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Because while they are paying him, his salary currently does not count against the cap and the second they bring him up, that $11.7M is added to their cap number, putting them around $251M and triggering the penalties for going over $246M that they seem to be treating as a hard barrier.

Maybe even more importantly, next season's $14.2M would be added to their cap number, hurting their flexibility for next season also.
Honestly, anyone who doesn't know this by now should be suspended for a week and then banished for good.
 

jon abbey

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Although actually I used his salary numbers and it should be his AAV ($10.36M) but the point is the same.
 

EdRalphRomero

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I know this has been covered many times but if they're going to punt on the season and ship some guys off the roster for spare parts, why not give Rusney Castillo some run up here and see if he can offer anything now that it's been a couple years? Yes, he's objectionably terrible and is just as likely to put up JBJ-esque numbers at the plate without the defense to offset it, but if he shows ANYTHING he becomes someone you might be able to flip (even if it means eating some money) for more than a bag of balls
Also, he has certainly not been terrible. This year he has a slash line of 290/.350/.484 (OPS of .833). Last year he had an OPS of .776 (also at AAA). For a guy who can play all 3 outfield positions, that is pretty good. If it were not for the aforementioned contract limitations, he would likely be a 4th outfielder or more (either for the Sox or someone else).
 

jon abbey

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Also, he has certainly not been terrible. This year he has a slash line of 290/.350/.484 (OPS of .833). Last year he had an OPS of .776 (also at AAA). For a guy who can play all 3 outfield positions, that is pretty good. If it were not for the aforementioned contract limitations, he would likely be a 4th outfielder or more (either for the Sox or someone else).
It would depend a lot on his defensive skill, .833 OPS is currently 36th among qualifiers in the IL, behind proven scrubs like Shane Robinson and Rob Refsnyder. Keep in mind that this year they started using major league baseballs in AAA and offensive numbers are up across the board, and also Castillo is 31 already, an age where even proven major leaguers are having trouble getting jobs these days.

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=l_bat&lid=117&sid=l117
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

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Also, he has certainly not been terrible. This year he has a slash line of 290/.350/.484 (OPS of .833). Last year he had an OPS of .776 (also at AAA). For a guy who can play all 3 outfield positions, that is pretty good. If it were not for the aforementioned contract limitations, he would likely be a 4th outfielder or more (either for the Sox or someone else).
Apologies, I meant at the Major League level. The consensus on him, by many, has been a AAAA player and his previous stints have not done much to change that, though it's been awhile.
 

BaseballJones

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And evidently you missed the point about when the entire rotation is healthy, where is he going to slot in the rotation? All of these guys are being paid as starters except Eduardo, who is arb-2. Do you really want to stunt any further growth by sticking him in the bullpen? You're going to need him next year as a cheaper option in the rotation, since if you signed Keuchel to 4/$80 (and that's the lowest it could possibly be; it might be higher), the other 5 guys are being paid over $88M this year. Granted, next year, you have a rotation opening because Porcello is a free agent, but you're not saving money long term, Eduardo gets more expensive as he goes through 2 more years of arb, and everyone else would be paid at a high rate through at least 2022. So, devoting almost half of your de-facto salary cap for 3 more years beyond this one is an efficient use of resources? I'd have to disagree with that.
-sigh- I made it clear that I wasn't advocating that the Red Sox do this. I was simply pointing out that IF they wanted to get Keuchel, that I think they could free up enough money to sign him. In the very post you quoted, to which you replied, I said:

"Like I said, I'm not recommending they do this. I was just answering the question of whether they could afford Keuchel if they wanted to go in that direction."
 

BaseballJones

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So you've got no one willing to take Nunez and his salary, and I am guessing, but could be wrong, no one to take Pearce and his salary.

For sure Kuechel is an upgrade. But don't you think there is a reason no other team has given him 4 years and $80 million?

And a downgrade in CF and in the lineup won't make this team a repeat champ.


Are those offloads wise if we are 12 games out of the WC at the trade deadline? Perhaps. But that is a team destroying move, not a team building move.
I'll repeat what I just said to DanoooME in the post right above this. I literally said, "Like I said, I'm not recommending they do this. I was just answering the question of whether they could afford Keuchel if they wanted to go in that direction."

I don't think I could have made it any more clear than that all I was trying to do was answer the question of whether (or how) the Sox could afford to sign Keuchel if they wanted to. I was not advocating that they do this.
 

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They could, if your theory that someone will take Nunez and Pearce's salaries is true. I think that Danooo and I are arguing that this is a false assertion and that they couldn't unload those players' salaries unless they also sent along a bag of golden baseballs or prospects that they don't have.
 

BaseballJones

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They could, if your theory that someone will take Nunez and Pearce's salaries is true. I think that Danooo and I are arguing that this is a false assertion and that they couldn't unload those players' salaries unless they also sent along a bag of golden baseballs or prospects that they don't have.
I'm just going to say this gently and leave it there but....this isn't all you were arguing. Go back and read our exchange and it's clear you and Danooo were arguing that it would be silly for the Sox to make such moves - even if they were able to - as it would make them worse, not better, and that it would be an inefficient use of resources to go that route. You even offered a ton of snark when you sarcastically said, "I am trying to figure out how if Gorky Hernandez is as good as JBJ..." which, of course, nobody said.

So of course you may be right that the Sox couldn't unload these guys. That's a perfectly fine place to disagree. But you didn't just stop there.
 

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I was arguing on multiple levels:

A: It would make the team worse, and they aren't tanking/unloading
B: Even if it wouldn't make the team worse, it would be impossible to find a team to take those two players and their salaries unless you sweetened the deal with additional resources

You suggested replacing Bradley with Hernandez. No one else did. My comment comparing them wasn't to you, but you were the one who suggested this as a reasonable move for the Red Sox.

An easier move might be for the Sox to convince the Giants to pay the nearly $20 million we owe Sandoval, since he's hitting AND pitching for them and they apparantly seem to like having him.
 

Byrdbrain

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But it would be silly to make those moves and it would be an inefficient use of resources to add another expensive starting pitcher with the way the team is constructed.
Never mind the fact that there is no chance in hell they could find teams to take Pearce and Nunez at this point. It is possible they could move JBJ for free to some team that thinks they could fix his hitting.
 

BaseballJones

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I was arguing on multiple levels:

A: It would make the team worse, and they aren't tanking/unloading
B: Even if it wouldn't make the team worse, it would be impossible to find a team to take those two players and their salaries unless you sweetened the deal with additional resources

You suggested replacing Bradley with Hernandez. No one else did. My comment comparing them wasn't to you, but you were the one who suggested this as a reasonable move for the Red Sox.

An easier move might be for the Sox to convince the Giants to pay the nearly $20 million we owe Sandoval, since he's hitting AND pitching for them and they apparantly seem to like having him.
This could devolve into a personal pissing match and I don't want that. I'll just repeat: The reason I brought any of this up is not because I was advocating that the Red Sox pursue these trades to unload salary so they could sign Keuchel (because I wasn't, and I made that clear on multiple occasions). It was simply to answer the question of whether they could swing it payroll-wise IF that's the direction they wanted to go. I wasn't saying they SHOULD go that route. Just that if THEY wanted to go that route, I thought there was a potential path to creating the payroll space to do it.

It's one thing for you guys to disagree with me on whether they could achieve clearing such space. But you guys also went on to argue against me *as if I was suggesting they should*, when I made it clear that I was NOT suggesting that. So it is a little frustrating. But I should just let it go.
 

BaseballJones

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Price has been a remarkably durable pitcher over his career. I believe he's only been on the DL three times, twice since joining the Red Sox. He's missed a start here and there but only three trips to the DL I think, before his current trip.

- He missed six weeks in 2013 with Tampa, from mid-May through the month of June. When he returned, he was excellent right away, pitching three brilliant games in a row and posting a combined line of 25.0 ip, 19 h, 3 r, 3 er, 0 bb, 18 k, 1.08 era, 0.88 whip, 6.5 k/9.

- He missed the first two months of 2017. When he returned, his first two starts were solid, then hit a speed bump in his third start (5.0 ip, 8 h, 6 r, 6 er, 4 bb, 4 k in a 9-1 loss to the Yankees), but then was very good over his next seven starts. He would go 5-3 with a 3.82 era over 66.0 innings during this return from the DL (May 29 - July 22). He would then go on the DL and miss another six weeks or so.

- He missed six weeks from late July through early September of 2017. When he returned, it was strictly in a relief role, which he did very well at. 5 games, 8.2 ip, 3 h, 0 r, 0 er, 2 bb, 13 k, 0.00 era, 0.58 whip, 13.5 k/9.

That's it. Those are his three trips to the DL, as far as I can tell. And every time he's come off the DL, he's been terrific (granted one was in a relief role). It looks like they're not thinking this is super serious, and I expect him to return from this DL (IL) stint pitching well.
 

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Pete Abraham tweeted before the game last night that Price was playing catch. Can't imagine he'd be doing that if it were a serious injury. I would think if it were serious, he'd be shut down from throwing entirely for at least a week or two. Not throwing the day after he was placed on the IL.