Price is right

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Dope
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I think it's time to remove HoF and MVP votes from the writers. Much different world now than it was a century ago.
 

LaszloKovacks

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I feel like the analytics / technology is making tipping that much easier to do. Any slight difference in pitching delivery, I bet advance scouting is trying to correlate it to pitch types, and if it's a high correlation, you got tipping.

So when everyone says how is the team not catching this sooner / needing outside people like Gagne to catch it, I say, you gotta be perfect on mechanics or you might get exploited in today's game.
If I were an MLB team, I would be looking at this constantly. And it wouldn't even be that hard. Employ 2 people to create pitch overlay videos of your staff and your upcoming opponent's staff. Something like this:



Then just spot the outlier movement / position / timing, isolate that layer, and you've found the tell. If you want to go crazy, you could lock off cameras from different angles to check it from every direction.

Are teams not doing this? Should the Red Sox hire me now??
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It’s interesting that when we have talked about tells this year usually it is about whether our pitchers are tipping.

For all we know it could be possible that the Red Sox succeeded in part by being above average in identifying other teams’ tipping.
 

Zupcic Fan

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I feel really good for David Price. The most interesting thing to me was to see how strongly his teammates clearly felt about the guy, yet there are still people writing stuff like “he’s still a prick”. And why?i because he got pissed off at Dennis Eckersly. Bizarre. I love Eckersly as an announcer, but for all I know he might personally be a gigantic asshole. I have no idea. But I do know that if all his teammates love the guy, than David Price is probably a pretty good guy, and he finally exorcised the demons. And that’s great for both him and the team. I couldn’t care less how he responds to the media.
 

syoo8

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If I were an MLB team, I would be looking at this constantly. And it wouldn't even be that hard. Employ 2 people to create pitch overlay videos of your staff and your upcoming opponent's staff. Something like this:



Then just spot the outlier movement / position / timing, isolate that layer, and you've found the tell. If you want to go crazy, you could lock off cameras from different angles to check it from every direction.

Are teams not doing this? Should the Red Sox hire me now??
They should hire you-- that is really cool what you've done!
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
I feel really good for David Price. The most interesting thing to me was to see how strongly his teammates clearly felt about the guy, yet there are still people writing stuff like “he’s still a prick”. And why?i because he got pissed off at Dennis Eckersly. Bizarre. I love Eckersly as an announcer, but for all I know he might personally be a gigantic asshole. I have no idea. But I do know that if all his teammates love the guy, than David Price is probably a pretty good guy, and he finally exorcised the demons. And that’s great for both him and the team. I couldn’t care less how he responds to the media.
It's worth remembering that what got Price pissed off at Eckersley was Eck ragging on one of his teammates (and a young player fighting through an injury, to boot). Sure, I thought it was an overreaction, and one likely based on misunderstanding of Eck's meaning--I heard Eck's "yuck" as more commiserating than contemptuous--but still, if you want to be obnoxious in a way that will endear you to your teammates, that's how you do it.
 

ledsox

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Actually, I thought he looked thunderstruck when Pearce got the award.
I was wondering about his feelings on it. In his post game presser Price said how happy he was for Pearce and he knew the 2nd HR in game 5 wrapped up the award for him.
 

bosox79

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What is the dollar value of 1 WAR now? A few years ago it was about $9 mil. I assume it always goes up year-to-year. Can Price be an average 3 WAR pitcher over the next three years? If he stays relatively healthy, I think so. But even if he declines somewhat, he could still be a solid #4 starter and by 2021 good #4 starters could very well be earning close to $30 mil. At the time of his signing, I thought the Sox overpaid, (not my money so I didn’t much care,) but after Price’s MVP-worthy post-season performance, I now think the Red Sox got their money’s worth no matter what happens going forward.
Pretty much this. I also think it's possible he's better the next 4 years, though not likely. Here's hoping he has a Justin Verlander type resurgence. Even 4 more years of the same would be great.

I also find this to be hilarious:
Price's Redsox Career
Regular season: 480.2 IP, 3.74 era
Postseason: 36.0 IP, 3.75 era
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
What is the dollar value of 1 WAR now? A few years ago it was about $9 mil. I assume it always goes up year-to-year.
It doesn't actually seem to do that. The market has tightened in recent years, and the value of 1 WAR appears to have stalled at around $8M, at least according to FG. Here's a look at Price's last five years with fWAR, FG estimated $ earned, and what that computes to in $/WAR:

2014: 6 fWAR, $46M, $7.7M/WAR
2015: 6.5, $51.8M, $8.0M
2016: 4.5, $35.8M, $8.0M
2017: 1.6, $12.4M, $7.8M
2018: 2.7, $21.7M, $8.0M

Unless FG hasn't bothered to recompute its $/WAR in five years, which seems unlikely, then inflation has slowed to a halt of late, at least if this example is characteristic (and I assume they're not using different formulas for each player or team, since that would kind of defeat the purpose).
 

bakahump

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I love Eckersly as an announcer, but for all I know he might personally be a gigantic asshole.
I think being an OBNOXIOUS (key word) Asshole is exactly what makes some people think Eck is a good Broadcaster (I am not a fan but 30 years of understated Remy will do that).
His "High Cheese" and "Eat Meat" Shtick is annoying to some(Many?) on air....so it would be no surprise if he is (A.) like that in person, and (B.) Similarly annoying. RedSox and MLB all timer but I would strangle him with a mic cord after a 3 game series if I had the opportunity.

All that said Price may also be an asshole (albeit a good teammate asshole). 2 Assholes often clash.
 

Al Zarilla

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I think being an OBNOXIOUS (key word) Asshole is exactly what makes some people think Eck is a good Broadcaster (I am not a fan but 30 years of understated Remy will do that).
His "High Cheese" and "Eat Meat" Shtick is annoying to some(Many?) on air....so it would be no surprise if he is (A.) like that in person, and (B.) Similarly annoying. RedSox and MLB all timer but I would strangle him with a mic cord after a 3 game series if I had the opportunity.

All that said Price may also be an asshole (albeit a good teammate asshole). 2 Assholes often clash.
Whoa, your opinion of Eckersley is so far out of line with that of the vast majority of people around here. Also, have you seen the things he did with Kirk Gibson, the guy that nailed him with the gigantic home run in the 1988 World Series, this year? Those things took a ton of class. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion though.
 

DrewDawg

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I think being an OBNOXIOUS (key word) Asshole is exactly what makes some people think Eck is a good Broadcaster (I am not a fan but 30 years of understated Remy will do that).
His "High Cheese" and "Eat Meat" Shtick is annoying to some(Many?) on air....so it would be no surprise if he is (A.) like that in person, and (B.) Similarly annoying. RedSox and MLB all timer but I would strangle him with a mic cord after a 3 game series if I had the opportunity.

All that said Price may also be an asshole (albeit a good teammate asshole). 2 Assholes often clash.
Everyone seems to love Eck, but okay. Dude signs autographs with Kirk Gibson.
 

uilnslcoap

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I find Eckersley easily the best color guy for the Sox and saying (with very minor and occasionally no censoring) what's exactly on his mind is part of that. Between that, his palpable enthusiasm for the game, the actual insight he sometimes offers, and his gift of gab, he blows the competition away (again, for me).
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
I would be really curious to see if there's a generational divide about Eck. It occurs to me that his style is very much a 60s/70s, surfer/Deadhead kind of thing, and may not read the same way for younger audiences. To me it sounds like even when he's being blunt and critical, there's always something laid-back and even gentle about his delivery that removes most of the sting. But I can easily imagine how viewers with a different frame of reference might not hear that.
 

Soxfan in Fla

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It doesn’t hurt Eck’s cause that he sounded a lot like Cheech and Chong with the “it’s time to party” line after Mookie’s epic Grand Slam off pitch 13.
 

Skiponzo

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I would be really curious to see if there's a generational divide about Eck. It occurs to me that his style is very much a 60s/70s, surfer/Deadhead kind of thing, and may not read the same way for younger audiences. To me it sounds like even when he's being blunt and critical, there's always something laid-back and even gentle about his delivery that removes most of the sting. But I can easily imagine how viewers with a different frame of reference might not hear that.
52 here and I love Eck.
 

sackamano

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I love Eck too, but he no doubt holds back on the criticism. Obviously the ERod/Price thing was a lesson, but that was blown way out of proportion. You hear worse on the radio call in shows in the first minute.

His laid back style suits me just fine. I'm entertained by his use of moss/salad/cheese/bridge/johnson ... whatever. He sounds like a ballplayer would sound.

Just keep Psycho out of the booth.
 

Zupcic Fan

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Just to be clear, though, my original comment was not in any way meant to be a negative one about Eck. I have no idea what he’s like as a person. I love him as an announcer. I just found it strange that people concluded that “Price is still a prick” because of that incident with him. It seems pretty clear to me that if Price was in fact a prick, his teammates would not feel for him the way they clearly do.
 

Van Everyman

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I’m completely satisfied with what we’ve gotten from David so far. Isn’t the whole point of these massive contracts to get your money’s worth in the first few years and then deal with the decline anyway? Furthermore, I think he’s the kind of pitcher that can adapt to diminishing velocity as he ages. He was firing 95-96 throughout the postseason but I know that we’ve seen him have success at around 91-92 as well. All in all, I’m happy that he’s sticking around.
I'm not yet convinced that he can win throwing 91-92 consistently. One of the things that he was able to do this postseason was adjust his mechanics so that he was back to throwing 93-95. Those few extra mph make a difference.
Certainly, he's better at 93-95. I have some confidence given his control and his ability to adjust his pitch mix that he'd adapt if his velo stuck down in the low 90s, too....but I agree that's not a certainty.
During the playoffs, they showed Price's performance in the 2008 ALCS and he was pitching ... 95MPH. Plus, his stuff looked almost identical a decade later. Will be interesting to see how much of it he can maintain going forward.
 

Average Reds

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Home run or no, I don't think palling around with Kirk Gibson absolves someone from assholery.
Are you really this obtuse?

No one was claiming that “palling around with Kirk Gibson” had anything to do with anything. Rather, the point was about Eck’s ability to put aside his personal failure (related to the game in question) and take part of a celebration of that moment.

The article you linked to here could not be farther from being relevant to this discussion.

Honestly, I have no idea why folks can’t let an incident from last year go when all of the people involved seem to have moved on.
 

bosox79

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Are you really this obtuse?

No one was claiming that “palling around with Kirk Gibson” had anything to do with anything. Rather, the point was about Eck’s ability to put aside his personal failure (related to the game in question) and take part of a celebration of that moment.

The article you linked to here could not be farther from being relevant to this discussion.
Doesn't he joke around about a teammate stealing his wife too?
 

Average Reds

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Doesn't he joke around about a teammate stealing his wife too?
Yes, he jokes about it. But the joke is at his expense, as he will admit if he’s being serious and is asked to expound on it. Although, again, I don’t know what any of this has to do with Price.
 

bosox79

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Yes, he jokes about it. But the joke is at his expense, as he will admit if he’s being serious and is asked to expound on it. Although, again, I don’t know what any of this has to do with Price.
Yeah, I meant that in favor of Eck.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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Unless there's more to the story, it was pretty thin skinned for Price to get all that worked up over a comment like "yuck," but I can understand why his teammates love him for it.

Just from watching NESN postgames and stuff, I kind of noticed a pretty subtle change in Price about two months ago and thought about posting it here. He was more self-deprecating in interviews, even when he was sarcastic. Just in general he seemed more mature and balanced. Whether he made peace with the love-hate relationship with the fans and the media or something else it was pretty noticeable.

He just really seemed more even-keeled. He seemed that way throughout the playoffs too and it helped him. I thought his "now I hold all the cards" postgame conference showed that he still holds a lot of resentment and I don't know that anyone can blame him, but other than that one moment I definitely got more of a sense after the all star break that Price was more of an "I know who I am and that's what matters" kind of guy.
 
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bosox79

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Back to Price, if you ignore his 5 starts he made with CTS, his line for the year is:

25g, 15-3, 2.88 era, 153.0ip, 155k/37bb 1.098 WHIP, .215/.276/.372, .258 BAbip, 25.3% K/6.0% BB.

That 5 game stretch with CTS:
5g, 1-4, 8.22 era, 23 ip, 22k/13bb, 1.87 WHIP, .309/.394/.543, .362 BAbip, 20.2% K/11.9% BB

Cherry picking, but injury related cherry picking.
 

bakahump

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Yeah obviously I dont know Eck (or Price). So both or neither could be assholes in some way shape or form. (as most of us are. Except Mookie Betts, he is a national treasure.)
Again personally his "cool guy" shtick rubs me the wrong way. I dont like his style but understand that many do.

I was just saying that anyone can rub anyone the wrong way.
A for instance, a poster above (who i tend to agree with) mentioned that Eck speaks like he is "a ball player".

Even though I dont like it per se, I can see how he has earned that right IMHO. Price may feel otherwise. He is not a "part of this team", he played "20 years ago." "He wants to be one of us but shits on us".
We all know the old guy at the club who tries to hard to fit in with the young guys. Maybe that was *part of Prices beef. Maybe Price felt that when you "Cross the line into media" (and its necessity to be critical) you lose a right to be "one of the guys".

The big problem is assuming that Price was all wrong, and Eck was all right. The 3rd side of the story is probably is closer to the truth.

Showing up to throw a pitch at the WS could be considered cool. Or it could be considered the act of an attention whore. I wonder what A's fans thought.

Seems like (and I could be totally misremembering) Bucker and Mookie Wilson doing something together caused this place to go apoplectic 15 years ago.
 

chawson

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Apologies. The entire digression gnaws at me.

No idea why we have to relitigate a moment that both parties regret in the aftermath of a postseason that went as well as this one did.
Hey man, I agree. I hate to bring up Price v. Eckersley too. I was maybe the tenth poster in the discussion, but I'm sorry if I struck a nerve.

I get that a generation of SOSH has lionized him (I'm in my mid-thirties, I don't remember his Sox career). All I'd like to do is make sure in our reflections of last year's incident that we're able to divine similar notions of exculpatory classiness from unrelated anecdotes about Price. Eck's a great color guy, but I agree with posters above that it's possible that a 64-year-old "guy's guy" prone to from-the-hip commentary might be taxing for some twenty- and thirtysomethings to be around every day.
 

TheoShmeo

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I was lucky enough to be in the Legends Box at Fenway about 12 years ago with Eck. He was the same exact guy you see and hear on TV. Now maybe he was in character when he was with us but it sure didn’t seem that way. Instead, he seemed to be genuinely engaging, excited to interact with us and gregarious. My take away was that his TV persona is very likely exactly who he is.
 

Papelbon's Poutine

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I’m not sure how Price and Eck are mutually exclusive.

Personally, I love Eck and his personality/style. I like that he’s brass and, I dunno? Hip? (To put it in his generation’s terms?)

Personally I also think Price did what he should and got way too much shit over it. It shouldn’t have even been a story. He was being a leader, but because he hasn’t been a perennial cya winner since coming here, he gets shit for anything out of his mouth, any action, any frown or long look.

Eck fucked up. It happens. Price stood up for a teammate. It happens. What shouldn’t happen is it ever even being mentioned outside the team plane. But chalk another one up for Shank.
 

Timduhda

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51 here d Eck is the 2nd best in IMHO. Can’t beat The Hawk in the late 70’s. Probably has something to do with watching the weekend games with my grandfather, but Stockton / Harrelson was the best.
 

dhappy42

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51 here d Eck is the 2nd best in IMHO. Can’t beat The Hawk in the late 70’s. Probably has something to do with watching the weekend games with my grandfather, but Stockton / Harrelson was the best.
Second that. I meant currently working, not ever.
 

ricopetro6

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I would be really curious to see if there's a generational divide about Eck. It occurs to me that his style is very much a 60s/70s, surfer/Deadhead kind of thing, and may not read the same way for younger audiences. To me it sounds like even when he's being blunt and critical, there's always something laid-back and even gentle about his delivery that removes most of the sting. But I can easily imagine how viewers with a different frame of reference might not hear that.
This 53 year old and my 24 year old both love Eck.
Price comes across as a dink, not very likable when he talks ro the press. He never talks about the fans at all....yet his teammates seem to love him and if he pitches well, I don't care if he's a dink
 
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joe dokes

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Yeah obviously I dont know Eck (or Price). So both or neither could be assholes in some way shape or form. (as most of us are. Except Mookie Betts, he is a national treasure.)
Again personally his "cool guy" shtick rubs me the wrong way. I dont like his style but understand that many do.

I was just saying that anyone can rub anyone the wrong way.
A for instance, a poster above (who i tend to agree with) mentioned that Eck speaks like he is "a ball player".

Even though I dont like it per se, I can see how he has earned that right IMHO. Price may feel otherwise. He is not a "part of this team", he played "20 years ago." "He wants to be one of us but shits on us".
We all know the old guy at the club who tries to hard to fit in with the young guys. Maybe that was *part of Prices beef. Maybe Price felt that when you "Cross the line into media" (and its necessity to be critical) you lose a right to be "one of the guys".

The big problem is assuming that Price was all wrong, and Eck was all right. The 3rd side of the story is probably is closer to the truth.

Showing up to throw a pitch at the WS could be considered cool. Or it could be considered the act of an attention whore. I wonder what A's fans thought.

Seems like (and I could be totally misremembering) Bucker and Mookie Wilson doing something together caused this place to go apoplectic 15 years ago.
Gibson's Parkinson's diagnosis makes this nothing like Buckner and mookie.
 

DennyDoyle'sBoil

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It's the conundrum or risk reward of being a Boston sports star. The fans and the media can be rough. But I don't think there's another market where you will be as beloved if you do well. It's the flip side of the same coin. I just don't think you could have one without the other. Dave Roberts played for the team for 2 months, never got a postseason at bat, and his most famous moment was that he was safe by a matter of inches down a run down and down three games to our most hated rival. And he never has to buy a beer in Boston and we actually are feeling bad for him for losing the world series even though his doing so means we won it. It's Boston yin and yang. I'm glad Price got some yang.
 

Hawk68

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I find Eckersley easily the best color guy for the Sox and saying (with very minor and occasionally no censoring) what's exactly on his mind is part of that. Between that, his palpable enthusiasm for the game, the actual insight he sometimes offers, and his gift of gab, he blows the competition away (again, for me).
Agree that Eck is great at color commentary due to insights and his gift of gab may only be second to Hawk Harrelson.

An all time great moment from Hawk... he was providing color commentary when Jim Rice broke a bat on a check swing (unimaginable strength, and I saw him do it twice). Hawk in his aw shucks way laughed and said "I saw Jimmy do the same thing in golf. Checked his swing and bent his driver"
 

ookami7m

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I'm 38 and think Eck is one of the better color guys active in the game today. I watch a ton of other games via MLBtv and other means and would take Eck about 95% of the time.
 

InsideTheParker

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Nothing to do with the Eck/ Price brouhaha in this post, so you might want to skip it.
I have been watching the alds and alcs today, and have been struck by how badly Price pitched against the Yankees and how unimpressive was his first start against the Astros. He then pitches well going forward. I don't see why everyone is so sure he is all fixed forever, especially when those same people are happy to let Eovaldi go. We'll just have to see, I guess.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Nothing to do with the Eck/ Price brouhaha in this post, so you might want to skip it.
I have been watching the alds and alcs today, and have been struck by how badly Price pitched against the Yankees and how unimpressive was his first start against the Astros. He then pitches well going forward. I don't see why everyone is so sure he is all fixed forever, especially when those same people are happy to let Eovaldi go. We'll just have to see, I guess.
Didn't Price acknowledge he figured something out in the bullpen during game 4? And hasn't it been suggested that he may have been tipping and the Yankees and Astros were on to it?

The guy was nails the entire second half of the season except for when he faced the Yankees. If tipping was an issue against the Yankees, and Price has fixed it, why shouldn't there be optimism about him going forward?

And what does that have to do with some folks resigned to the idea that they won't keep Eovaldi? I don't think I've seen anyone suggest they should let him walk...only that he may be too expensive to sign.
 

The Gray Eagle

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This yahoo article by Jeff Passan from a few days ago details how the Yankees knew when Price was going to throw a changeup, and the Astros did in his first start against them, too.

"Unbeknownst to the Red Sox, the Yankees believed Price was tipping his changeup. Only it wasn’t visible to the hitter. The first-base coach could deduce when Price was throwing a changeup and would signal the hitter. With his cut fastball becoming a pitch he used less and less, taking the changeup out of the equation made hitters’ jobs even easier. The Yankees jumped him.
Houston also knew about Price’s tipping and did the same in Game 2 of the ALCS. Over the four days between then and Price’s Game 5 start, the Red Sox cracked the tell. They also eliminated his cutter almost entirely, making the changeup even more important. Price threw a career-high 39 changeups that night. The Astros swung and missed a dozen times after doing so once in Game 2."

The same article also talks about how Kimbrel was tipping his knuckle curve:

"As the postseason wore on, the Red Sox feared runners on second base were seeing the unique grip Kimbrel and others use on their curveballs. With a so-called knuckle curve, pitchers bend their index finger and put pressure on the fingertip, exposing the knuckle. Upon seeing the grip from behind, the runner at second can relay the pitch type home – a disaster for Kimbrel, who throws only a fastball and curveball.

The Red Sox prescribed a tricky antidote: Sometimes, as they prepared to throw a fastball, the knuckle-curve-throwing pitchers would flash a knuckle to deke the runner at second. As they went into their windups, the pitchers surreptitiously slid their index fingers onto the ball and pumped a fastball to unsuspecting hitters expecting a curve."

With all the video study that teams are working with now, pitch tipping is going to be a big factor going forward. I am sure the Red Sox probably picked up some tells on various pitchers this postseason too.
Smart teams are going to need to be able to pick up how their own pitchers are tipping, as well as how the opposition pitchers are too.